Why Society Is Afraid of Aging (And Death)
Cameron (00:00.837)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co host, Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:05.482)
And I'm your co host, Nathan Rittenhouse.
Cameron (00:07.407)
I wanna talk about our allergy to aging these days. I mean, it's true that we've never loved Yes, we are. It's but it's true that we've we've never loved being mortal, you know? And there's long been an ambition to try to achieve some sort of immortality. I can't help but think of that fantastic line from Woody Allen here where somebody in one of his movies asks him, Don't you wanna, you know, live on in your work?
Nathan (00:13.393)
You're allergic to aging?
Nathan (00:22.222)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (00:37.379)
Well, I'd no, I'd much rather live on in my apartment. So
Nathan (00:41.466)
Yeah. Or the or the joke about what do you want to hear them say at your funeral? Look, he's moving.
Cameron (00:48.557)
Yes. But again, what's what's changed this a little bit today, and I don't think we always come back to this. I don't think this is something brand new or anything like that, Nathan. But I do think there's a difference in degree here rather than kind, because we have a set of new technologies. And that always tends to mess with our thinking on this topic. So in this case, we have
Once again, a thriving, surging fitness industry, a fitness industrial complex. And a huge part of the philosophy that powers this big fitness industrial complex has to do with turning back the hands of the clock. And it has to do with, well, you you look amazing for your age. Wow. You, you know, age is nothing but a number. If you, you know, do strength training and
You know, follow pursuits like that, you literally can turn back the hand. Yes. Forty is the new twenty. You really can turn back the hands of the clock, and it helps with bone density and will throw some scientific facts at you. And it all just feels quite sad, trite, and silly to me, Nathan. Not because I don't think that health is important. I do. I think it's part of our basic stewardship of the bodies with which we've been entrusted.
Nathan (01:51.192)
Forty is the new twenty.
Cameron (02:19.385)
But also but also because it it's leading to people, first of all, ironically, mistreating their bodies in an effort to constantly look younger. It's leading to the mistreatment of older people, which is a long-standing problem here, particularly in the United States. I still, as a European transplant, I remain appalled at the at the disrespect and and just the way older people are treated in the United States. And
I thought we should talk about some of that here on on Thinking Out Loud.
Nathan (02:51.777)
Yeah, is is the technological shift, because yeah, obviously there's a spiritual component and we want to put this into into a broader biblical anthropology, and think about the consequences of that. But is the i would it be true to say, maybe this is a generalization, that in the past the application of technology was in masking aging. So, hey, you can do this to your hair, you can do this to your skin, you can do this to so you're you're kind of hiding the effect of this will, you know, get rid of the wrinkles here, there and everywhere.
That the technology was helping us hide our age, where some of the more you look at everybody from Putin to your tech bros who are actually in investing and very fascinated in a no, actually pausing the biological clock. So this isn't about masking aging the this technology isn't about masking aging in the way that I would think like ten years ago the technology would have been used. This is this is different at from the cellular level.
on up of saying, no, we really can pause and this is the new wealth flex is how much money are you investing in your longevity? That seems to be I mean, the person who's dying their hair doesn't think that's going to make live longer. You know, y it's th that's why this feels different to me.
Cameron (04:06.255)
Yeah, you
The health is wealth soundbite is what you're making me think of. Well, I don't know. I think twenty years ago or so, you know, not too long ago, the masking aspects, I think there was a disproportionate focus in the past on women and standards of beauty. And so I think that's where that a lot of those practices were. Because if you look at, you know, the 1950s, or it means even if you look at movies, movies from the nineties, there's kind of an obsession in doing this. People who were my age
Nathan (04:21.601)
Right, yep. Okay. Fair enough. Yep. Mm-hmm.
Cameron (04:37.603)
you know, in some of these older movies looked a whole lot older. And there was there's kind of this there was but there wasn't this concerted obsession with looking younger and turning back the ha the hands of the clock for everybody. So I think there was a disproportionate focus on on this for for women for a long time because of sort of standards of beauty, many of which were completely unrealistic. But now
Nathan (04:41.932)
Cameron (05:07.341)
I think part of what's happened here is once again, I mean, some of these are the bounties of the internet. Do we want to say bounties? It used to be the case that many years ago, if somebody wanted to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger, you would have to fork over thousands and thousands of dollars to a personal trainer, you know, a professional, I mean elite trainer of some kind. And you wouldn't you didn't have access to all the information. The diet.
the work the the the workout regiments and all that that is all completely available to everybody now. If you want to look like Brad Pitt in the movie Fight Club, that's just kind of one of those physiques that's often, you know, kind of referenced, you you really can do it. I mean it's it's not easy, but it is simple because you can you can access the diet, you can access the workout routine, all of it. All of it, yeah. And if you if you, you know, put your nose to the grindstone and you do it.
Nathan (05:55.447)
Supplements delivered to your doorstep?
Cameron (06:02.007)
You you can pull that off. It's no longer something that's just restricted to people who are either professional trainers or bodybuilders or actors. Everybody can do that. So that's now widely available to everybody. But then there are also enhancement technologies. And now, Nathan, the focus has shifted. This is no longer disproportionately on women. This is this is men and women alike.
Nathan (06:26.733)
Are you saying you work out with the looks maxers, Cameron?
Cameron (06:30.789)
Yeah, clavicul clavicular. Is that his name? Yeah, he's he's making I work out with I will put it like this, Nathan. It is rather funny for me sometimes when I'm there, especially if I'm in an I'm in a kind of stationary position. So if I'm on the stairmaster or something, it is very humorous for me to see grown men who are some of some of whom are are incredibly strong.
Strutting around and striking multiple poses in mirrors, taking photographs of themselves completely unself-conscious of it. This is behavior that would just frankly would embarrass me. I would never, I would never, I just wouldn't want to be seen doing that. But I I can't walk into the locker room without walking into somebody's shot because they are that you know they've they've removed their shirt immediately and they want to catch their pump in the mirror. So
It's a very different world out there. And these are just, yeah, many of them, I mean, all ages, you know, we're talking twenties up to to fifties. Now I I I do I happen to work out in a gym that is is the habitat of bodybuilders. So and I do mean bodybuilders. I'm not use I'm using that term meaning professional people who who step on stage and who do have the the physique of an Adonis. So yes.
Nathan (07:55.661)
But is that an aging thing or is that just I mean, where d where does the line cross over there from?
Cameron (08:00.1)
Yeah, I mean, not all of it's an aging thing. I mean, some of it is is just there I mean, and let's make some meaningful distinctions. Some of them some of these people are just simply athletes. And that's and that's that's one category. The aging thing though comes in when you start to have conversations, particularly with people my age. And I can say this now because I'm I'm technically in in middle age. I'm in my forties. So this is where the conversation about physical decline happens and all because the physical decline is real.
Just physiologically speaking, I am encounter it entropy happens. I still I want one of you listeners to make a shirt for Nathan or a mug at least. Entropy happens. It's better than the other thing that happens. But I yeah, I can I I mean, so the conversations I'm having with having with people my age, some of them are the healthy ones, go like this. It's good that we're here. It's good that we're sweating, it's good that we're taking care of ourselves.
Nathan (08:31.531)
Entropy happens, turns out.
Cameron (08:58.201)
We're cons we're we're working to ensure that we have adequate health so that we can serve others, so that we can still toss our children into the air occasionally and and roughhouse with them and play well and also work, you know, have some manual labor in our lives and and help other people. The unhealthy conversations go more like this, Nathan. It really is now and I'm not these so I'm not I'm not gonna use specific names or anything like that, but I'm going to give you actual
actual words and phrases. These are not exaggerations. It's like magic. We really are turning you are turning back the hands of the clock. This is this is the this is the secret sauce. This is how you will s we you will literally stay young. This is how you cheat death. These this so almost quasi religious language, those are the conversations that are unhealthy. And those are the conversations where if I gently try to interject
Yes, but my days are still numbered. So th th there's always Cameron, you're still you you are still young and look at you, look at you here. You're you're putting in the work, you're taking care of yourself, you know, you're you're ac you're pr you're exercising proper self-care. Not not a phrase I absolut not a phrase I love but but I when I try to say, No, but my days are still numbered and I am actively planning.
For the day where I am going to have to change the routine here, because if I don't, I'm gonna injure myself. Unless I take, you know, try to alter myself by artificial means, i.e., take steroids or something like that, which I'm not gonna do. And then there's the no, no, no, no, well, Cameron, you don't wanna be that's that's that's being awfully negative. No. That's being yeah, defeatist. No, that's being human. And I I still think one of the big challenges of our day is to be
Nathan (10:48.533)
Defeatest.
Cameron (10:57.305)
Fully human.
Nathan (10:58.549)
You are going to die. That's that's the summary of this podcast.
Cameron (11:00.175)
Yeah.
Cameron (11:03.905)
Years ago, this book won won the Pulitzer Prize. Ernest Becker wrote The Denial of Death, which is a book that remains so relevant. And I think if he were alive to write an updated and expanded edition, so he he spends a lot of time looking at how relationships function as a way for us to try to cheat death or try to, you know, love to try to transcend human limitations. I think he would be absolutely fascinated and horrified.
It's worth pointing out Ernest Becker lived up to his ideals. There were a number of people who were close friends with Ernest Becker, and they all choke up talking about how brave he was when he took ill and died, and how he did not he was not in denial, and how he very bravely faced his own demise and and died with such po po just real dignity. But so this guy practiced what he preached. That's why I want to bring that in. He wasn't necessarily a Christian.
Although he had tremendous respect for Christianity, but he practiced what he preached. So his words I think mean a lot. But I think he would be fascinated and appalled not just by the fitness industry, but by the underlying philosophy of it that says your body is basically just clay in your hands. It's plastic, and you can mold and shape it however you like, and you can you can defeat death.
Nathan (12:29.749)
Is is the assumption that your body is worth less as you age
Cameron (12:37.988)
That's a good question.
Nathan (12:39.785)
So so what is what is the what is the fear behind aging? Now, I hang out with a lot of old people who would talk about all sorts of aches and pains and things that they would rather not be, and they just kind of laugh at it as it's like, yep, that's what that's what this phase of life is about. you know, and just take it as we knew this was coming and here we are. So I'm I'm not dismissing the the difficulties that come with aging physiologically, but
it it seems like the preservation or the anti aging thing is more than that. It's not just a trying it's not just trying to avoid having to get up to go to the bathroom multiple times at night in thirty years.
Cameron (13:19.948)
If I want to speak about it as if I want to give a steel man position for it, I could say that the the the main arguments would be you will greatly enhance the quality of your life as you get older if you take care of your body. So y mm.
Nathan (13:36.971)
Okay, that's true. But here's the thing. Walking a mile or two a day in order to maintain your bone density so you're less likely to fracture a hip when you're older is different than I'm going to go to the gym two hours a day to perfect my physique right now. I mean, is there really a corollary there between
Cameron (13:53.157)
It is.
Yes. So I don't think so. So I think many well, first of all, many of the reads on this, as superficial as it sounds, if you look at the response, for instance, to a before and after photo that recently went viral on social media was of Tom Hardy, the actor, who's, you know, tremendously good looking guy. One is a photo of t about twenty years ago when he was a young man, and he was I mean, he he looks like a model, and the other is a present day where, you know
Replete with sagging flesh and he's gained weight. I mean, he's he's a normal middle middle-aged man. And somebody wrote, What happened? That was the caption. Now, fortunately, some of the comments are are just good old-fashioned reality checks. 30 years happened, I think one person put. I mean, but the the assumption, you know, yeah, that he's what happened. I mean, he's just a normal person. He's just getting older. And also, here's another question, Nathan. So
somebody is it necessarily a good pursuit to s to to say, well, I'm prioritizing my health. Therefore, I'm never going to go hang out with the guys anymore at the bar. And I'm not going to drink or or I'm not going to go eat pizza with them anymore. Because if they want to destroy their bodies and wreck their systems, that's their prerogative. But I won't be numbered in that company because I'm different and I'm better than that. And I'm going to stick to my chicken and rice and broccoli.
Thank you very much. So there's a there's a very serious trade-off happening there in some of these instances. You're losing valuable fellowship with people in order to, quote, prioritize your health. So there are other conversations to be had. Now, I don't want to create a false dilemma. Why not both? Why not show up there and and you know just be there and not eat any pizza and not drink any beer? You can do that, of course. But also
Cameron (15:53.263)
Have you reached a place where you can't occasionally just let go? And well, Nathan's never gonna drink a beer, but yeah, eat a pizza or have an ice cream with your kids. Cause I would suggest, at least knowing from my own personal experience, if you come to that place, part of the my children's enjoyment of ice cream with the family is dependent upon me having an ice cream, yeah, and participating in that enjoyment. And I'm gonna do it. And I think that's a healthy, that's a healthy thing, even though, well.
Nathan (16:13.868)
Participating. Yeah. Well
Cameron (16:22.81)
That ice cream, I mean, that is awfully calorically dense. Yeah, but I love this time with my children.
Nathan (16:27.052)
Well, so I mean, but so you let's let's talk about priorities here because it it's gonna get hard if we don't. So there is scripture that addresses this. Paul writes to Timothy, physical training is of some value. So I mean, there's your there's your thumbs up beneficial, yeah. Recognize steward the body that you've been given, take care of it, honor it. You're not your own your bot with a price, therefore honor God with your body. The whole theology of incarnation and creation. Easy to make the case for taking care of your body.
But the rest of that sentence is physical training is of some value, but godliness holds value for this present age and the life to come. So he's I don't think he's making a commentary one way or the other. He's just saying it's a secondary order to so I mean, 'cause you could think like, I'm going to I'm gonna ride my bike a hundred miles a day so that when thirty years from now, I will be in good enough shape to have a good relationship with my kids.
Cameron (17:04.432)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (17:24.554)
And they'll be like, yeah, I remember growing up where my dad went and rode his bike for multiple hours each evening while we were home alone. I yet like what's the what's the trade-off there of the focus of which of these things is actually the valuable investment of of time? Or the fact of let's just say, let's pretend like big what if here, you can't reverse aging and you are going to die. But the most valuable, so the most valuable things that my grandparents contribute to me right now are not physical strength.
Cameron (17:30.683)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (17:53.387)
I I I I don't need my grandmother to be able to bench press fifty pounds right now. That that's not what I need from her. you know, so so being able to move the metric of of the wisdom, of the relationship, of the godliness, of the knowledge, of the community, of the memories, of the teaching, the the the shift of the role as we age changes perhaps into a not not massively reorienting the physical world around them.
Picking up heavy things is not a critical part of what it means to be a grandma. I I think those are the the categories to me that just seem so obvious to now maybe I've thought about this a little longer than others. Whenever I was finishing up a little program in Oxford, they gave superlatives to to all the students voted on by a class. And at the age of twenty six I was voted to be the best future grandpa. So I've been I've been training on my wanna be grandfatherliness here for quite a while.
Cameron (18:39.462)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (18:45.868)
Yeah.
Nathan (18:52.384)
But but yeah, so to me the the whole physical body thing thing, yes, important, yes, has it monopolized the full range of view of most people's lives when there are so many other beautiful elements of what it means to be a human? And and then it also just gets weird on yeah, like you're talking about the an actor or or your spouse or your dad or what like, yeah, do you know why they look like that? Because that's the age they are.
Cameron (19:21.936)
Right.
Nathan (19:22.902)
Do you know why my wife doesn't look like she looks when I met her? Because she's 20 years old and has had four kids. That's why. It's great. It's perfect. That's happy. This is this is what you should look like at this phase of your life. You're healthy and you're able to serve the world around you, and we have a lot of fun in life together. But to pretend like my life has to stagnate in some category in order for me to be fulfilled is now we've gone beyond the physical.
Cameron (19:34.074)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (19:50.405)
Mm.
Nathan (19:52.628)
into some weird unhealthy spiritual and psychological categories.
Cameron (19:56.793)
Yes. A lot of us would do well to ask the question, When I'm on my deathbed, am I going to seriously think, I wish I had spent more hours at the gym? Those the the the good old deathbed thought experiment is so helpful, especially for those of us with with families, because invariably people when they, you know, are approach approaching the fin finish line.
A big part of that, as pastors will tell you, is that they begin to to express regrets. And those regrets have nothing to do with spending more time at the office or spending more time at the gym or people remembering that, wow, Cameron always did have really great arms. All of the all of the hopes and wishes are really concentrated on relationships and how you spent time with people. And if you have kids, particularly with your kids, friendships, all of that.
Nathan (20:43.154)
That's
Cameron (20:58.272)
And most people wish they had spent a whole lot more time with the people they love. So it's worth bearing that in mind. I also have to just this is yeah.
Nathan (21:06.476)
But what but hang on, because you can you can twist this around and say, I want to spend more time with the people I love, therefore that's why I'm trying to extend my life as long as possible.
Cameron (21:14.174)
and I've heard it twisted around that way. Yes. And I can tell you, yeah, there there is of course a balance there. So but I can tell you every time I often when I when I go to exercise, I often do it when my kids are going to bed. And they are still bothered by it. They they don't like even the thought that I'm absent from the house when they're asleep. And and I'll say, well
I I'm doing this now so that I I you know, didn't do this during the day when when I was when I'm with you. But I take note of that. Now I could of course just say, don't make me feel guilty. I've gotta go take care of myself and so I can take better care of you. But that's not the way that's not what I say to them. First of all, yeah.
Nathan (21:54.967)
Well, there's a weird you're so you you're not representative of the population because you work out physically for the mental benefits, not the physical.
Cameron (22:02.542)
I do. And I I discovered this a long time ago. And this is just this is just peculiar to to me. Not not that I'm this this doesn't mean I'm s I'm s totally unique or anything, but here's here's something about me, which is just this is true of people who are, you know, kind of professional intellectuals. I sit around a lot with book in my hands and or I'm writing. So I I'm very sedentary sedentary in my lifestyle in a way that Nathan is not. Nathan's extremely active. Nathan's building things, making things, mending things. I am very yes, physically fidgeting.
Nathan (22:29.792)
Physically fidgeting in the physical world.
Cameron (22:32.58)
Yes, Nathan has astronomical amounts of hobbies. You should ask if you ever meet his wife, you should ask her about about Nathan and hobbies. It's funny. But I'm I'm not that nimble when it comes to that kind of stuff. So when I find when I came to working out in my thirties, so I was a little I was a late comer, I had the advantage of not having been an athlete in high school. So I I wasn't dealing with outworkings of injuries. I didn't have any injuries. But it was the it was really the sole sort of real
sporty like thing I did. The real real physical exertion. And so it was a tremendous help to me mentally, but not in the way you think. People say, yeah, you you you know, when you're working out are you are you putting together talks? No, no, no. It's a great way to clear the mind. It's it's a it's a way to take some cognitive rest and just focus on the physical labor, which is a really healthy thing in a balanced life. We all need that. I mean some people do it can can do it through gardening, planting things, fixing things.
I don't have that skill set and a YouTube tutorial is not going to do it for me. So when I go to the gym and I'm I focus on consistency and intensity, intensity is really important because that takes I want to I want to be lifting loads that require my focus and my concentration and help me to clear my mind. And there are tremendous benefits in that for me. It helps me to rest better, helps me to sleep better. It also gives me the cognitive
i intellectual rest that I need. And also puts me in touch with but also with my physical limitations. There's huge endorphant rush, natural high, but also physical limitations. I mean it there is something very healthy about coming to a place where I r where I say, Okay, if I lift any heavier than this, I am likely going to sustain a sis a serious injury. So it's a humbl in a healthy sense, that's the humbly they they call that ego lifting. You you
Nathan (24:08.042)
Little endorphin rush helps sometimes too in life.
Nathan (24:28.204)
So it but that's but that's why that's weird because so you're you're pushing yourself to to a limit and saying, here's a boundary for me and then I must figure out how to live within this boundary. The s same thing happens with time.
Cameron (24:35.642)
Yes.
Cameron (24:39.118)
And I am so
Yes. And I am surrounded by people who are through technology transgressing those boundaries. And it's a temptation. So when I'm when I'm there, you know, to the the person next to me on the bench bench press press next to me, who is just Yeah, a Greek god and is but I mean
I I you can get into a complicated conversation here. Some of these people are athletes and they're and they're there are different decisions to be made. So I'm not con condemning this necessarily, but through through steroid usage, not and not everybody who's bigger than you is on steroids, by the There's a joke in the gym. Everybody who's bigger than you is on steroids. Not some people just are stronger than you. And some people and they and they work really hard. But I can see people who have who have pushed past their physical limitations and are now.
Nathan (25:07.232)
I yeah.
Nathan (25:25.228)
Okay, hang on. I think we're
Cameron (25:33.688)
It they're they're stronger than they naturally are. And there's a tremendous it's impossible not to think about the way that monkeys with your brain when you can exceed your natural physical limitations. And something about that strikes me as dangerous, very dangerous.
Nathan (25:50.207)
I I see I help me out here, because it w I think we're giving too much credit scientifically to this endeavor. If you look at populations of, you know, sub sub populations of subcultures where people live to be on average a hundred years old or something, those none of those people ever benched 150 pounds in their life. They're usually very sh shall small framed people who ate a lot of lentils and walked a lot. Yeah. So I mean your your typical Buddhist monk who's a hundred and two.
Cameron (26:03.846)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (26:13.69)
Walked a lot, right? Yeah.
Cameron (26:19.674)
Yes.
Nathan (26:19.882)
did not live to be a hundred and two because of his gym time when he was forty two years old.
Cameron (26:24.868)
So here we come to the to the real heart of the matter, Nathan. The fact is that so I've I I think I've tried to do the best I can to to to steel man the position. But the the fact of the matter is that so much of this is really just about looking good.
Nathan (26:39.478)
There you go. Let's pull out our darts in this balloon room.
Cameron (26:41.22)
We have to be honest. No, but we just have to be honest. So when w the the attack on the Tom Hardy photo, it's just because he looks old and fat to certain people and they think, no, that's the end of the world. And so to the people who are older, you know, in their sixties or seventies and still benching lots of weight and all of that, it really if they looked really terrible and were able to bench that same weight, do you think they would have the same notoriety? Not a chance. Not a chance. It's how they look. And that's a huge part of this.
It's it's the actors who age gracefully, as they say. Yeah, it it's it's all about how they look. And let's just let's just be honest about that.
Nathan (27:18.492)
well, okay. Maybe this is a little bit of aesthetic thing because well, so there there's the crossover here between working out in order to look better and then euphemistically quote having work done. which have you ever seen it's like okay, maybe maybe at 60 you thought that that procedure helped you, but at 70 it is a it did not it
Cameron (27:32.198)
Sure.
Cameron (27:44.071)
Well but also but but also at at Yeah, but also Nathan at twenty-five. See, part of the problem is that you have younger pe but this isn't surprising at all because this is just you if here we are at the conclusion now, and here we bring in the big thought. This is just an extension of our thoughts on identity where we believe that we can just completely s craft and mold and self create. So is it any wonder thou that you people 22 year olds getting Botox? Well, of course they are. Of course they are.
Nathan (27:45.492)
It it starts to go the other direction pretty fast on the other side.
Yeah, so
Cameron (28:13.42)
Ever the air the the air that they breathe, the cultural air that they breathe tells them you make yourself. You define yourself, but also your value is entirely on your shoulders. You if you want to be bold and beautiful, you have to make yourself bold and beautiful. That's a terrible thing.
Nathan (28:32.81)
I I I it's just hard for me to think like, Okay, Cameron, when you were dating your now wife, did you was there a point where you thought, you know, her lips aren't quite puffy enough?
Cameron (28:37.296)
Hm.
Cameron (28:41.752)
It's really it's yeah, so it's wild. I never did. No, never. Never went through my mind. But it is a category now. And you know why? It's not just the identity formation piece, which is huge. That's the ambient philosophy in the background, the tacit philosophy that we don't spell out, and that's all the more powerful because we don't spell it out. But it's also the notion that we approach everything like consumers. You don't think dating apps have a have a role to play here? Well, I don't I like this girl, but her nose is a little bit too big, so maybe we'll just keep swiping.
Nathan (28:43.786)
I'm just saying like that isn't even a category that went through your mind.
Nathan (29:07.292)
Yeah.
Cameron (29:11.514)
That's tremendous so I'm not necessarily dogging all well, I am dogging dating apps a little bit here. I mean, that's that's anything that anything that pushes us into the objectification of another human being is gonna be necessarily destructive. And when we look at people like we're consumers, boy, we have a real problem here. And so is it any wonder now that people think, well, I've gotta doctor myself up. I've gotta I've gotta make my s so there was a show a number of years ago.
And I am not recommending this show. Okay. I can't stress that enough. Do not hear me, Christians, who think everything is is in order. Cameron said go out and watch this show called Niptuck. I'm not saying that. But I remember, and I never watched the show Niptock. For the record, I remember coming across one episode of it, because this show was all about it was about a plastic surgeon and it was all about body body modification. There was a this scene, I just happened to catch this scene, and it was so haunting. It stayed with me all these years later, Nathan, where
He's having a one night stand with this girl. He's this really good looking plastic surgeon. And she's this beautiful girl. And she says, Is there anything you would change about me? Very coy. And he says, Well, hold on a second. And he grabs a kind of I don't remember all this was he grabs a marker or something. You know, just his and he and then the next scene, she literally looks like a jigsaw puzzle. And these are all the outlines of all the modifications he would make to her.
And it is I remember feeling absolutely chilled to the bone by this. It was so powerful. And that was years and years ago. I mean, that was well before our moment here and saying, If I just made these modifications to you in other words, if I just cut you up like this, then you would be the perfect woman. I mean, yikes. It's it's sad and scary how relatable that that was, but yeah.
Nathan (31:00.82)
So s yeah, so the the the the challenge here though is that okay, it's gross when you say it out loud like that. But the vast majority of of this is is the subtle subconscious. So how do we how do we start so I'm thinking about this, okay, now as you talk to your children, as we talk to the the young people around us, how do you how do we want to
Cameron (31:10.363)
Yeah.
Cameron (31:21.434)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan (31:30.71)
point out, I think, hey, do you know why that person has gray hair? Because that's what happens to your hair as you get older. I mean, but but but the Bible goes the other direction in prioritizing it of gray hair is a is a crown of splendor. The people who have aged and and lived to that age are supposed to be the revered ones that we're looking up to. So there's there's a there's a flip of
Cameron (31:37.445)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (31:50.896)
We have to Yeah. There is. But there's more than that, Nathan.
Nathan (31:55.521)
You you you've used you you you've used the line for a long time that America is the only culture where people want to grow up to be teenagers. and and so this just you said that to me probably 10 years ago, and I thought it was interesting, and that acceleration continues. But there had I think in the biblical vision of respecting the elder, of honoring the older, of giving preference to it was weird. When I was a little kid and we had like a church dinner.
Cameron (32:01.613)
Absolutely correct. Yeah.
Nathan (32:23.594)
The kids sat and the old people went first through the line. Now it's like a stampede of eight-year-olds, you know, trying to beat each other to the casserole. so there is a a cultural shift that I can see playing out even in my own lifetime that I think is a deviation from this idea of of honor and respect and embracing the changes that happen on our body with the expectation though though outwardly we're wasting away, inwardly we're being renewed.
Cameron (32:33.904)
Yeah.
Cameron (32:41.691)
Yeah.
Nathan (32:53.75)
That there was an expectation that spiritual and emotional and relational maturity would develop as our bodies dialed things back. But it's so it's a little unsettling to live in a culture where I think, well, maybe some of the older people aren't more thoughtful and wise because they too have been susceptible to the marketing schemes that haunt everybody else's conscience.
Cameron (33:18.094)
think the bigger issue here is the givenness of things, accepting creation and accepting our lives and the bodies we have. I mean, it's just not unusual in our culture to say, Well, gosh, my nose is a little bit long or I don't my s my chin isn't strong enough, or maybe hey, let's face it, this is a world in which there are people who are not conventionally attractive. Okay, that's r that's real. And now
The thought is often, well, I don't need to accept this. I can change this. So I'm not being very practical here. I don't know precisely how we have all of these conversations, but we need to get back to a place of acceptance with some of this. And that sounds so defeatist, Cameron Notes. so you you're saying some people should just be ugly? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I am, actually, because there is such a thing as somebody who's not physically attractive.
Nathan (34:12.844)
Ha ha ha.
Nathan (34:17.312)
Well but but see but but here's the thing is you is you you can't you can't always not be ugly. Like I and and ugly is a weird word because we're we're using this in a very cosmetic sense. But but but there are
Cameron (34:25.083)
Right.
Cameron (34:29.216)
We are. And that's so that's a that's a I'm not shying away from it because I want to be very direct here. And yeah, I don't mean ugly as in a human being.
Nathan (34:34.816)
Have you ever seen a hundred and two year old and you're like, wow, that is a stunning physique? No, you haven't. So, so it it's not a I I was wildly unpopular in high school. All the girls that got the butterfly tattoos on their back, I would remind them that that butterfly was going to turn back into a caterpillar in 40 years. the nobody nobody loves to have like your body's gonna change a lot, and that's not gonna be anyway.
Cameron (34:38.222)
Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah.
Nathan (35:01.724)
I so so I'm different in that I I I s I see freedom in it's like you working out and saying, Okay, I can curl this much without ripping a bicep. And now that I know my upper limit, I I I work within the world. Yeah y yeah. but it but it's I mean it's it's y the thing of so the other day I was building a fence with my brother. roll of wire, they're kind of heavy, and my grandpa came out to see what we were doing, and he was
Cameron (35:14.2)
Now. Maybe not yes.
Nathan (35:31.233)
Kind of working around there. And then he said to me, He's like, A funny thing happened. He said, I reached over there and picked up that roll of wire and it never moved. And he thought it was the funniest thing because all of his life it's something he would have been able to do. Well, it's not like Abe and I look at and like, what's wrong with you? Why can't you pick up a couple hundred-pound roll of wire? You're 94. It's kind of impressive. You're out here on the hillside, keep keeping an eye on it. So, so for him, it's like,
Cameron (35:40.186)
Mm.
Cameron (35:44.314)
Yep.
Cameron (35:53.826)
Absolutely. Yep.
Nathan (35:57.309)
I was helping an older gentleman. He had a swarm of bees. He called me and said, Hey, could you help me come set up a ladder climb up here, cut this out, do that? And he's for a long time had some neurological things that makes him a little off balance. Splendid man, and kind of laughs at himself and says, you know, thanks for helping me with this. I'm a little unsteady today. Keep an eye on of of the pe so I just know a lot of people who have embraced. I remember stopping into my wife and I stopped into her grandparents who were were living together.
Cameron (36:02.106)
Mm-mm.
Cameron (36:13.401)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (36:27.528)
and were very, very unstable on their feet. And they said, We want to make lunch for you. And I was sure that they were going to wipe out in the kitchen, like bouncing off the refrigerator, helping hold each other up. And you what? They made dinner because that's what they did every and and laughing about the the fact that their hands shook a little bit when they fli flipped the burger.
Cameron (36:34.288)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Nathan (36:48.448)
There's no part of that that seems to me like failure. It's just this is how our bodies go.
Cameron (36:52.197)
Right.
If I put this in practical terms, I would say we need to we need to think about practical strategies for helping ourselves and others to accept our human condition.
That doesn't mean, you know, I think physical neglect is a bad thing too. I obviously I'm I'm a physically active person. So I b I believe I I think going, you know, exercising is a good thing.
Nathan (37:19.574)
Physical training is of some value, Cameron would say.
Cameron (37:21.54)
Physical training is of some some value, but I also think that behaving in a responsible manner is really important here as well. So if I if I reach a ceiling physically, for me personally
I don't think that forking over tons and tons of money and then taking some sort of artificial steroid or whatever it is to transgress that limit is a responsible decision. But I also think part of that responsibility is is recognizing, hey, here are my physical limitations. How do I how do I honor those physical limitations, limitations so that I don't hurt myself, so that I don't also, you know, deprive others of the help that I could.
that that I could offer to them. And how do I not let vanity carry me away? And I'm just speaking specifically of going to the gym. I mean, there's there is always a part of going to the gym that involves working on on your physical appearance. It's unavoidable. That's part of it, of course. But if that's the main leading factor, you got a problem there. Because you are gonna, you are gonna start. I just think if David Foster Wallace's
lines in in that Kenyan graduation commencement address where he says, you know, worship beauty and physical allure. You will you'll end up feeling ugly and you'll die a million deaths before they finally mourn you. And you I mean basically your vanity will just lead you in all sorts of bizarre and strange directions. And sadly we see plenty of people whose bodies bear the scars of those directions.
Nathan (38:58.208)
I yeah, I it's just a very shallow it's just a vela very shallow thing to reduce our value to our external appearances.
Cameron (39:09.186)
It is, but one of the one of the non shallow reasons people get drawn into it, Nathan, is because they are told and it I've I've heard plenty of influencers say this, that your physical body is a reflection of your character.
So that's that's another destructive message. So in other words, if you're yeah, if you're overweight and all of that, then that means you're a lazy slob. Okay. Not necessarily true at all. That's a gross oversimplification. Or if you look physically fit, that's that's a sign of that you're har you work hard, you're disciplined. You can't yet could be. Or you could just be a vain jerk. And you and also a slob, by the way. You could be a really physical fit.
Nathan (39:42.262)
Could be.
Cameron (39:51.183)
Specimen who still lives in his mom's basement and sits around posing in front of a mirror all the day, all day long and covers himself in body glitter. How is that a person with high, you know, good character? Come on. It's just way too it's an oversimplification, but people do the the whole I don't like the health is wealth sound bite because that that's part of that philosophy. Absolutely. Some people Yes. Yep.
Nathan (40:10.708)
And a lot of people are born at a disadvantage on a whole whole range of things here that don't play into that.
Cameron (40:20.378)
One hundred percent. So ex we need to find ways, and there's they're gonna be it's gonna look different depending on who you're talking to, what child you're talking to, what friend you're talking to, but we have to find practical strategies for accepting our our human condition, this side of eternity. Part of that includes mortality. We don't I'm we're not gonna be morbid about it and that all we talk about, woe is me, I'm dying, my days are numbered, look at me, I'm I'm I'm I'm practically a walking corpse. Okay, obviously that's not a healthy mindset either. But
Nathan (40:48.362)
Yeah. Or or the flip side of like Jesus talks about not disfiguring yourself so that people know you're going through some kind of religious practice or 'cause again, that's just making it more about you in another direction.
Cameron (40:54.085)
Mm-hmm.
Yep. Yep.
Cameron (41:02.65)
So I think what we've come to, Nathan, here is that a huge what often masquerades as a concern for health and longevity is really just vanity in disguise a lot of the time, just good old fashioned vanity. And that it leads us down and also that we live in a moment that is uniquely equipped with a bunch of technologies that enable this and also with an identity formation philosophy that says you make yourself. And so therefore you should form yourself and you're
Your body is a reflection of that.
Nathan (41:35.403)
In the past, people only had to deal with physical mirrors. So maybe you have a mirror on the wall in your bathroom. Now we live in a time of digital mirrors where we can see ourselves and project ourselves and take the image of ourselves that we want to see and broadcast it to the world. And so that technological shift over the vanity part of this is a massive element of that. I I think I want to think on this. Maybe some of you have some wise words for.
I'm thinking p specifically of how do we want to start talking about bodies to and aging to the people around us. and and I think it's it's really, really helpful to think about this like when you're young. To to go ahead and recognize, okay, actually, I probably do know plus or minus a few years when I would naturally die based off of my grandparents' lives. but also to go and to sit with old people.
Cameron (42:07.056)
Mm.
Nathan (42:31.881)
nursing homes, grandparents, buddy up to the old people at church and just say, This is this is what my life will look like in in 50, 60, 70 years if the Lord gives me life and health to get there. This there's there's no there's no s I I have multiple examples around me of what my future looks like. And in light of that, how do I live well? So I and and the thing of it is I know a bunch of old people who say that the phase of life that they're in right now
is absolutely delightful to them, eighties and nineties, who all although their bodies are not doing exactly what they would like, are loving and enjoying life and have a lot of meaningful contributions that they're making in a lot of other people's lives and receiving a lot of pleasure from the things and the relationships that they established in the past. So maybe some of the the starting point is talking about being old as a good thing and then working back from there of saying that this is not a all of this is blown up by Christianity, Cameron.
All of this. Because that that's why Timothy's thing or Paul's thing to Timothy of godliness has value for this age and the age to come, is that actually the gospel is an anti-aging story, permanently speaking there. So I I think maybe it's it's dumb for me to dream of eternity and then stress over the next sixty years.
Cameron (43:35.705)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (43:59.205)
A lot more to be said here, and a lot more we will say. We didn't say anything about power in this whole thing, which is another big cultural goal. And maybe we talk about that. I think we should talk about that in a future podcast. But I think we've we've said enough this time to get the wheels turning. We know you have some thoughts. So we will brace for impact. If you like what we do, by the way, and would like to.
Support us. There are a couple ways you can do that. For one, you can like, share, and subscribe and spread the word. We have a YouTube channel too, by the way, and we're growing on that YouTube channel. So yeah. Like, share, and subscribe. If you want to support us financially, you can also do this by going to www.toltogether.com. We are a ministry that that functions on support.
And so that would be a tremendous blessing and help to us. If you want to see Nathan and I in action, that is live in the flesh, you can do that at the Summer Academy. But you gotta hurry because pretty soon registration is gonna close for the Summer Academy. Where is it, you say? Boy, it's at a beautiful monastery in Illinois. And Illinois is a temperate climate in the summer, so it'll be nice and mild weather.
It's a big long conversation, this conference. You're eating with us, you're hanging out with us, you're not just hearing us on stage, and then we walk away and hide in a green room. no, you're with us the whole time. And not just us, Andy Bannister, Kevin Van Hooser, Stuart McAllister, and a whole Matthew Milliner, a whole host of others. So we'd love to see you there. If you want to, if you're interested in that, you want to go register, go to www.cslewisinstitute dot org and click on the Summer Academy banner.
We'd love to see you there. yeah. You've been listening to Thinking Out Loud. Podcast where we think out loud about current events and Christian hope. All right, bye.