What If Your Church Closed Tomorrow? | Church Decline, Grief & Christian Hope
Nathan (00:00)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co host Nathan Rittenhouse.
Cameron (00:03)
And I'm your co host, Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:05)
Want to talk about church decline, Cameron. ⁓ specifically, or maybe the way to frame this question for the listener is does your local church need to exist forever in order for your concept of the kingdom of God unfolding? ⁓ does that meet the theological criteria or assumptions that you have? What what would happen if your church closed? And the reason that I asked this is this is not a hypothetical for a lot of people listening to this, or it's certainly not a hypothetical for a lot of people who aren't listening to this, but it's it's worth thinking about.
And it it it seems to me that there are two categories developing here where you have churches right now that are really growing and thriving, and those are the ones that you hear from. And then you have ones that are just kind of slowly fading into the into the background ⁓ who maybe recognize that they're in decline but don't want to say it out loud, or you have some denominations that are just in total free fall. I mean the numbers are just what they are. And so I was ⁓ thinking through this aided by an article.
By Karen Kilby in Plow magazine called It's Not All Good Man. How should Christians respond to a church in decline? And so, whether you're listening to this as somebody who's part of a healthy and growing church or somebody who's part of a church in decline, I think there's some categories here that are helpful for us to think through together. ⁓ just as we think about what it means to be the church and what our role in the broader kingdom might be along the way. So, ⁓
It's it's it's it's tricky in the in the current climate that we're in, Cameron, because I think there's a a sense in which in a post Charlie Kirk era, there are a lot of maybe older evangelical Christians who say, Hey, wow, there's this really this massive youth movement happening, lots of people are turning to Christ, ⁓ which is true ish, but ⁓ it's it's a it's a look at a very small demographic of the of the total picture of just kind of the cultural moment that we're in.
And so if you look at the the real and the actual numbers across the board, there still is a there's a leveling off in the loss of church membership in some denominations, but there isn't a a rapid development or expansion kind of ⁓ nationally across the country. And so we want to be realistic and honest about the numbers as they actually are. And I think this article helps to do that. So any any thoughts before I I jump in and outlining this for you to comment or do you see parallels to this conversation anywhere else?
Cameron (02:30)
I'm curious why you think the question with which you opened is an important one. So if you expand on that a little bit, why should we be asking, you know, does the kingdom of God need my church?
Nathan (02:42)
Well, I I th I think in a healthy church we all function with the assumption that it'll just always be there. Particularly if you've if you're part of a church that's, you know, a couple hundred years old. ⁓ and this isn't theoretical. I know a lot of people whose churches have closed in the last five years. Or I I drive through rural America all the time and look at the little churches that just don't have anybody in them any longer. So in in some ways this is not a new ⁓ the town dried up.
the timber business or whatever the main industry was gone. ⁓ what was once a town is just now a little crosswood with an old wooden school that used, you know, school slash church building. ⁓ and so our our our history, I like our our nation is is littered with the the once places of worship that are now longer functional. And so for me it's not really so much of a theological or a psychological thing of like, does the kingdom of God need my church? But the
The importance of of answering the question is so what if you are part of a church that's in decline?
Cameron (03:46)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (03:46)
How how are you supposed to think about that theologically? That's a little bit more of where I'm I'm coming.
Cameron (03:52)
Yeah, I have a little bit of familiarity with that because I grew up as a missionary kid in Western Europe, in Austria, all over the place. And the churches that we were a part of in in Austria were very, you know, the these were very small congregations and with you wanna talk about very limited cultural influence. And that's that's putting it lightly. And so you took for granted
Nathan (03:57)
You've seen the skeletons all over.
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (04:17)
Well, what you rather what I should say what you could not take for granted was the longevity of of whatever congregation you belong to. You did what you did what you could to try to build an institution, but with the full recognition that you're you're in a place that was hostile to it, not in the sense of of o overt antagonism, but just in the sense that you are you were in a place, a culture where there was a way of life that did not actively support.
Congre a local congregation. So you knew there was there was an inherently provisional element to it. And it was healthy. If you were so there are it's probably not a good idea if you're a very idealistic person to be a missionary. And we saw a lot of idealists ⁓ come
Nathan (04:59)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Cameron (05:16)
and they were full of zeal and energy and excitement. And then within ⁓ three to five years, they were very tired and frustrated and they left with their heads hanging down. So yeah, let's yeah, we can
Nathan (05:26)
Yeah, okay.
Let's distinguish so we're not talking about the enthusiasm of the church planter here. We're talking about the the posture of the of the family that's sticking with the church that's fading on the back end. How do how we want to wrestle with that? ⁓ actually in some ways there there might be some parallels to the conversation we just had on aging and the fact like you will die. And what does it mean for your body to get older to to think through ⁓ it is is it's it's similar in the sense of like, I think at a certain age of you're like, I'll live forever, kind of you don't say that, but you think that in the back of your head.
Cameron (05:38)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Nathan (05:57)
And maybe we have that for our churches as well. But ⁓ let me let me outline the argument for you here and see what you think about this. So Karen Kilby is setting out one type of response, which is that our churches in actually before I go there, because it popped into my mind, Russell Moore one time said, evangelical Christians are sort of interesting in that when our churches are growing, we say it's because of our great strategy. And when the church is in decline, we say it's because of persecution. So we we switched the cause of saying, hey, if
Cameron (06:23)
Mm-hmm. Sure.
Nathan (06:27)
If something is going if if we're in decline, it's because of an external force, not because of us. But if things are going well, it's because of us, not of an external force. So just be just be aware of that metric in the back of the mind there. But Karen Kilby's argument is saying, okay, there's one type of response that has two parts to it. And the the response is basically, ⁓ we've lost the plot theologically. And this can work in two directions chronologically. So one is to say, look, okay, our church is in decline, but at this point in history.
⁓ pre-Schleiermach or whatever, ⁓ that was the element where we lost, we we got off the tracks, we lost the path there. And so what we need to do is get ourselves back to a posture and a position that precedes that division. So every church or denomination is going to say, I mean, even if you're Catholic, before Vatican II, you know, like it's that sense of like, here's where we went off the rails. And if only we could get kind of get back to that theological vision and framework, we would kind of catch our footing again and then grow on the other side of that.
then the same it's the same category she's using, but it happens in the other direction of of a more progressive vision that says, we just haven't adapted Christianity to culture fast enough. We haven't yeah, we we we haven't made ourselves relevant and haven't changed fast enough to keep up with culture. And so if we can just adapt the gospel to the cultural around us, then here in the future, this thing will catch fire and really grow.
And I I think it's it's insightful of her that she says those are the same impulse is to say this is a a theological category that we have to get ourselves into ⁓ in order for change. And she does not de deny that, hey, you know, there's some value in thinking through these categories, particularly of going back and saying, where do we kind of go off the script here? I know I was part of the denomination who in nineteen seventy five made a very wild and broad statement about what it meant to believe in scripture.
And it seemed like there really were a whole lot of fallout from that decision. So she's not saying that that's not true, but she's asking, okay, let's think about is that the only option or the only possibility of why? So theology is important, absolutely. But the the theological response isn't it's not a hundred percent slam dunk that if you just had the right theology, your church would be fine. ⁓ then she says there's another response to that that you see.
You see the loss as good. And to say, okay, we've had this church that's full of fluffy Christians. We're going to whittle it down. We're going to get rid of the surface level commitment. And we're just going to have a the pure, really committed church. And we kind of whittle things down to the core, then this thing will grow. ⁓ again, I I think I have seen visions and versions of that in New England where you did have a stronger, a smaller but stronger church. And so it's not to say that that's wrong per se, but
Cameron (09:17)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (09:22)
Maybe it's a little too casual in some categories to be like, okay, the decline is good. there's another version of the decline is good narrative, which is to say, okay, we're getting, we're getting away from we're being liberated from political capture. And so we have too long been under the thumb of the ⁓ political theory and cultural analysis and all of that, and we're shedding some of that post-Constantinian ⁓ you know, shell, and we're getting back to a more pure church in that sense.
⁓ again, maybe some of that is true. But she's saying, what if what if the
What if we don't put a rose-colored spin on this and say this is actually good? Or we don't say this is a theological thing, and we just embrace it as ⁓ actual loss, as suffering, as a form of grief that you need to live in. So I'm not saying that if you're part of a church that's in decline, that those four categories are irrelevant, but I think this is a a new thought for a lot of us to say that there actually is a
a sense of grief that comes along that maybe it isn't theological, maybe it isn't cultural. ⁓
that or maybe it isn't a maybe isn't we don't ⁓ polish it up with a sense of like, like Christ is emptying himself for the world and so the church is d you know, that they're what if what if you don't try to put a positive spin on this or you don't try to blame someone else and you just say, ⁓ I think we're this is an actual form of suffering and ⁓
Yeah, that's a that's a valuable but to to to to live with it as a a sense of grief. I was trying to find a specific quote here that I I wanted to read. ⁓
Yeah, let me read this quote to you and then get you to comment on it and then I'll and I'll get your comments and then go because this this is kind of sad. I'm laying this out in a heavy way. So let me finish this sorrowful part and then we'll we'll move on. But I think a lot of us, whether it's a a church, a relationship, an institution, something we've invested in, maybe your old college doesn't exist anymore, ⁓ fill in the blank here. Listen to this paragraph. She says, My hunch is is that there is some light to be shed on church decline if we think of it as a form of suffering. For some, at least.
Cameron (11:13)
Sure.
Nathan (11:40)
This must surely be what it is. The church's shrinking will not be, for most of us, the most acute form of suffering imaginable, the most dramatic or the deepest, but to watch the decay of what one worked to build, to have a sense that things were close to one's heart, which most illuminate and motivate and matter less and less to other others, to see there has been a failure of transmission, of witness down the generations that the institution is getting older, weaker, and
Less relevant, less respected, to see less and less external validation of what seems to one most meaningful, all these things come together to impose a sort of collective suffering, at least to those who remain in the churches in the West.
I think our hearts can resonate with that in some category.
Cameron (12:30)
That's profound. Help us think through how this is not a defeatist position. Because I think I can hear some listeners. I think I we're all most of us are Americans. And Americans are fix-it people. So what what she just said is really powerful and poignant, but it's so antithetical to how mo most of us are wired. So say a little bit about how that's
What she's advocating is not necessarily a defeatist position, but may actually be healthy.
Nathan (13:03)
Okay, so here's here's some wisdom that comes in a later part of the article. She says there are two responses to suffering. One is the tempted flight from it, and the other is to embrace it. And so you take it on as a as a badge of and and she she works this out but by basically saying that you don't want to embrace suffering. You don't want to embrace ⁓ like that that isn't a posture. And there and there's a temptation to do that theologically.
I mean Christ's example of his life, the whole like so there there's a s ⁓ so there's a little bit of a sense of like if we can't fix it, we'll we'll just embrace it as we go down. But she says this line that I think is very helpful. She says there's a subtle difference, but an important one, between enduring the suffering that is sometimes necessary on the path to God and embracing suffering as the path to God.
Cameron (13:57)
Mm. That's really important. Yes.
Nathan (13:59)
That's important, isn't it? And so
so it is a subtle but important thing to say, are we embracing this form of suffering as saying this is what pleases God as we suffer? Or do we say, hey, actually this is a form of suffering, but God meets us on this journey of suffering, and that's where we grow spiritually.
Cameron (14:16)
I'd I think we should talk about that distinction for just a little bit. So on embracing suffering as something that is intrinsically good, what was her you know, that brings you closer to
Nathan (14:26)
Yeah
as as the path to God verse let me let me give you the actual sentence one more time. So there's there's a subtle difference, but an important one between enduring the suffering that is sometimes necessary on the path to God and embracing suffering as the path to God.
Cameron (14:29)
On the yes, please do it.
Yes. As the path to God is a well trod path, and there are some impressive movements and names to that roster, but it's not actually the the Christian way. You know, down that road are all sorts of interesting experiments. I mean, and also honestly, Nathan, that's a that's a very that's a very kind of eastern
Position too, just with regard to suffering. I mean, if you want to speak in impossibly broad terms, there is you you can try to conquer suffering, which is we've tried to do that in the West through technology, largely. We've tried to conquer physical pain. But then there's another way to try to conquer suffering, and that's to to embrace it or accept it or embrace it. That's that's a very that's an eastern path. But yeah, on the way to God is really important. So I think.
Nathan (15:11)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Cameron (15:36)
One helpful category we have to always have before our minds and it's not so elementary anymore, Watson, in in today's church. We do inhab we're living in a fallen world. So I I do think I want to go back to Europe for a second, because now that I look back, I think of also all of those glorious cathedrals. And they are they're they're beautiful, they're magnificent, their architecture is marvelous, they're monuments to worship.
Nathan (15:44)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Cameron (16:05)
But they function like museums now. And there is something profoundly sad about that when you walk through St. Stephen's Cathedral or Chartres, wherever it is, and people in there are principally tourists, not worshipers. But even I'm thinking my son has this real love and obsession with church organs right now. Well, there's a and but that's that actually led to some interesting good spiritual conversations because organs were I mean a
Nathan (16:08)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Cameron (16:34)
A huge part of the development of organs involved worship. But the doc there's a documentary that we've we've he's been watching nonstop called Organ Stops. It's a very good documentary, actually. You should check it out. But it's following this this this man could not be more British. This very, very British man named Martin. Of course his name is Martin. And his his he rescues organs. He rescues organs because churches are being shut down on a near weekly basis in in England.
And but it's led to my kids both asking, why why do they keep closing these churches down? Well, the church has been in decline, seriously, for a very long time in Europe and in England and in England, but you get to hear some of the the people who worship at these churches. There's one striking moment where an Ethiopian man said, It's a tragic irony to me that the gospel was brought to my nation by missionaries who were launched from these churches, and now these same churches
are being closed down. And he says, that's just that's very sad. It it is just very sad. And I've tried to pause there with my kids too and say, you know, there's an impulse in me to say, yes, but Oslan is on the move in in the UK. And and there are there are neat there are neat developments, but that is just sad, full stop. And it's a testament to the brokenness of our world.
Nathan (17:47)
Yeah.
Okay, well let let me continue here with a little bit of Kilby's development here because I think she she foresees some of this sentiment. And so she's saying, Well, what if we do go ahead and think about it as a type of death? You you use that word. The church died, dying, decaying. And she said the fact of the matter is, is that not everything not everyone who dies died because it was their own fault.
Right? I mean, just say that out loud. There are there are people who are hit by cars or I mean, like, and it's and it's a tragedy. Like the thing died, but it wasn't due to the fault of the person who died. That is a type of death, and that is a type of grief, to say this thing is no more. But she said, there are also people who die because their work is completed.
Cameron (18:32)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (18:48)
It wasn't it wasn't anything that was bad. It's just that that little mountain church that was at the crossroads of a booming industry and then the people are all gone. It i it is to say that and if we you know we apply that to our own bodies of like, yeah, we're not all gonna make it forever, and some of us will die tragically and others the
Cameron (18:52)
That's another
That's another hard one for us, isn't it?
Nathan (19:10)
Get to ripe old age and the Lord will say, You've completed that race, the end. Can that happen with churches? That's the question we're we're wrestling with here.
Cameron (19:15)
There are local Well, yeah. Well,
I mean, there are local congregations, and then there's the church. And some local congregations do they're they're finished. That yeah, that little town that that that died when when its thriving indust what's once thriving industry died, you know, and the church lost its members, or or or it just could yeah, it could or the church completed its mission. There is
Everything here is shot through with impermanence. Jesus did say the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church. And he's but he's speaking when we we we need to the categories are not are not straightforward to people anymore either. So we need to state them there are local congregations, but they are part of the Capital C church. And what is the church? Really, the church in in the truest sense is the body of Christ. And that will never die.
Nathan (20:10)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (20:14)
And we have that vouchsafed by Jesus' resurrection and Jesus' continuing life. But on the ground here, in this fallen world where we are surrounded by ruins, that's part of that's part of life. And and we are surrounded by the rubble of many former institutions. There are local congregations that die. Of course they're that are dying every day. And that and some of them, some of them are finished. And
I think but part of what's so hard about what you what she's saying and what you said, Nathan, is what we wanna do is we immediately want to find some sort of okay, well, here's why they failed. Like like the art the article is so carefully gone after all that th they were they weren't relevant enough. Or they compromised on their they capitulated to the culture, so that's why they died. But you're right, this is such a w th that's it there are s there is such a thing as an innocent death. People who die who didn't deserve to die. And
Nathan (20:54)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Cameron (21:13)
That's just really hard for us. Really hard.
Nathan (21:15)
Yeah, it yeah, because well but but this this might
be part of a broader conversation of Cameron, you and I are are living in the time of the death of all sorts of institutions. So it's not just the church, but I think there was a a cultural moment in which the success of an institution was how many hundred years did this thing and how many generations and how many, you know, millions of dollars did it have in its ⁓ you know, ⁓ coffers. The but there there's another part of this that that makes the church a little bit different.
Cameron (21:24)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (21:43)
And it's that even as you were talking about the decay of the churches and Martin going around and there was some kind of gross joke there about organ harvesting from the dead, I think, but but you're talking about the churches that were planted out of that that are now thriving. Or the church that I'm part of is doing as as well as churches do these days, and the the mothership church of that eighty years from eighty years ago is just a little pile of boards on the side of a mountain somewhere.
Cameron (21:51)
Of course, yes.
Mm-hmm. Right.
Nathan (22:12)
It's a you know it it's so so there there's a sense in which it the the building itself isn't there, but the impact of the work has continued.
Cameron (22:19)
I have a pro
I have a I have a thoroughly trivial slash profane way of of illustrating this. And it's from Jurassic Park. But probably probably one of the most one of the one of the more famous lines from the movie comes with you know, remember at Jurassic Park on the island, all the dinosaurs are deliberately female. Right? Remember so that they can control the population of the dinosaurs. Well, there's that one scene where, you know, everything chaos has ensued and the dinosaurs have gotten loose.
Nathan (22:46)
Okay, yeah.
Cameron (22:53)
And Dr. Grant is with the two children. They've they've spent the night in the tree and all that. But they come down from the tree and they see eggs hatched and little footsteps. And they say, Well, but all the dinosaurs here are f are female. And then Dr. Grant Dr Dr. Grant quotes Ian Malcolm, you know, the chaos theoretician, says, Life found a way. And I I that comes to mind too with the with the church. I mean, we do see decay and and ruin in lots lots of dead churches, especially if you've got a
Europe and we do seem to be following in the footsteps of Europe here in the United States right now. But then you also see other signs, you see little footsteps and life find and life finds a way.
Nathan (23:33)
Kilby is ahead of you again. Let me read you the next the introduction to the yeah. When somebody writes a good article, it's just hard to get ahead of them. So she said, she says this. She says, it's not an either-or. Sadness about what is lost and recognition of new growth and new possibilities are not at odds with one another. We can think and feel two things at once, and one doesn't cancel the other out in some tidy mathematical equation. So
Cameron (23:35)
boy.
It is.
Nathan (24:03)
You can be sad about the fact that a church is weakening and excited about the possibilities of new life on the other side of that. You can, you can lament the loss of your mother and be delighted in the birth of a grandchild in the same week. and so there is a sense within the church that that life finds a way thing is is the story. It's just a question of where are you at in the cycle and how are you going to trust God in it.
At that time.
Cameron (24:35)
Mourning is a healthy and important thing, isn't it, Nathan? And we like to skip over it often. And I I think of the I think of the phrase that often is is used in situations like this. When when anybody is if if you're dealing with somebody who is in the midst of deep grief, there's gonna be a strong temptation for you to try to fix something.
fix it. But if they're in deep grief, whatever whatever is troubling them is not fixable. All you can do is is be with them, give to them the gift of your presence and mourn with them. And that is something that's hard. We we want to we we want to try to fix to fix it. So I think part of the takeaway here from this article also and in in this episode is that it is okay to sometimes just pause and just and stand still and say this is this is this is deeply sad.
rather than immediat before we immediately go to theorizing or trying to find some solution or say, Well, here's where their theology was wrong and all of that, that can be a coping mechanism if we're not careful.
Nathan (25:46)
Yeah, the the the direction she goes with that on the I'm gonna just use her to stay a step ahead of you here. She's ahead of you is to say that yeah, the the and and and the article what is the what's this show? Better Call Saul or something? It's it's all good. I haven't seen it but she
Cameron (25:51)
She's a she's ahead of me, yes.
Yes, Better Call Soul. It's
the it's the prequel to or the spin off I should say from Breaking Bad. Yep.
Nathan (26:04)
Okay. So the
so the title is It's Not All Good Man. because I guess what's Saul's Goodman's answer is ⁓ yeah, it's all good. And and she says, no, that's not the actual posture, it's the it's the Julian of Norwich, all shall be well. So not all is well, but all shall be well, and the tense of the verb matters here immensely.
Cameron (26:19)
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
That's right. And I think I've said this before. Idealism in general is a big challenge right now in the church, because that's also something that happen I mean, just if we want to think realistically about the world, we don't want to turn into crusty cynics and be jaded and grumpy.
But we also we don't want to be naive either. We need to recognize, no, it it's it's a fallen world. Things do die. People do die. And some of those people were innocent, and some of those institutions were, you know, innocent. And we can and it's and it's good and right to mourn. But it's also we don't we do not grieve as those who are without hope. That's also true. I mean, we are on the way.
To God, but if we're on the way to God, those tenses really are important. We are not we're not there yet. And I think so often we want I mean, a good deal of the the major theological trouble that the church get does get into down the ages, especially since s in earnest, since Constantine or Constantine, whichever part of that pronunciation divide you fall on.
is to try to is to is to try to fix it now and try to to secure for ourselves a kind of security here and now that we were never promised and that we can't have yet. So I think that's that's a good this is a this is a this is a tough article. Cause she's ahead of me. I I I know she's ahead of me on this.
Nathan (27:56)
well let me let me make it worse and then I'll and then I'll shut this and we can we can discuss yeah yeah so yeah yeah so
so the the point of it is what the the way she concludes this is say, look, all shall be well because the Holy Spirit does not abandon the church. And that that doesn't mean your individual building, that means the bride of Christ. The Holy Spirit does not abandon the church. So she says that we know that its ultimate future, together with the future of all things and all manner of things, does not depend
on our own best analysis and strategies.
And that's how the article ends.
Cameron (28:33)
Hm, put that in your pipe and smoke it. That's a th that's yeah. This is good hard stuff.
Nathan (28:35)
So s
yeah, so so I think I I'm with you in that there would be a way to l look at that and and and say this is defeatist. ⁓ on the other hand, ⁓
My brother had a found a kitten in the barn one time when he was like, I don't know, three years old or something. So he put it in a five gallon bucket with sawdust and he would take it a little saucer of milk. ⁓ and it turned out somebody asked him about his his kitten and he's like, yeah, I've been feeding it. and somebody said something about the plane. He's like, no, it's always asleep.
And so finally one of us went and checked and and the the kitten was was not asleep. The kitten was dead and probably something else is drinking. The milker is evaporating, you know, dur during the day. Sometimes
The kitten's not asleep. It's dead. ⁓ and so so there there's a a sense in which you don't want to yeah, have a a defeatist there there's there's a realism that has to be at play here. And and and so I don't know I don't know who this podcast is for exactly, but there might be those of you listening who are part of things that are not going sp as splendidly as you would like. And the question isn't what's the best strategy? I think the question for me, Cameron, is how do I be faithful to
Cameron (29:52)
Yeah.
Nathan (29:53)
To the task for this day, and we entrust this to the Lord and see what happens. ⁓ because I am hardwired by nature to strategize, analyze. I have I have Excel spreadsheets on ridiculous numbers of things that don't matter to anybody else. ⁓ and so this is a some
Cameron (30:03)
As am I, yes.
But I hear you saying
realism is not defeatism. Th there's a there is a difference between the two. And knowing that difference is important because you don't want to go down the path of despair. But on the other hand, you can't resuscitate a dead kitten. You can continue putting the saucer or milk in there, but it's not it's gonna be to no avail. So
Nathan (30:30)
Mm-hmm.
But the
thing is, you know what? Cats are doing just fine. That that that kitten died, but the cats are doing just fine.
Cameron (30:43)
Yes, the bird population in my state is really suffering because the cats are doing just fine. But that's another story entirely. Life life finds a way and the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church. But some loc local congregations in this this side of eternity, yeah, it is a sad story.
Nathan (31:02)
Mike, yeah.
You you're not going to get done everything that you envision doing. That's the Cameron, what is the one item that both you and I overpack on speaking trips?
Cameron (31:13)
Books, as my dad would say.
Nathan (31:14)
Books.
Yeah. And and and why do we overpack books? 'Cause like, we're gonna have time to read these. Do you ever do you have you ever finished a book on a no, never. But you still do it. So I was this week looking at a stack of books on the floor in my hotel room and thinking, actually it's not only this stack of books, but it's a whole lot of other ideas and like I have a desire to know, but I can't know everything. That's what eternity is for.
Cameron (31:21)
Mm-hmm. Never. Never.
Nathan (31:43)
So I have to say, Lord, what do I need to know for now in order to faithfully do what you have me to do? And I think that's the posture we live in of saying, I'm not going to get it all done. I'm not going to read all the books, know the all the ideas. You're not going to have the enough strategy to save your church. It's a question of, ⁓ the Lord's going to do all that. The question is what what does he want of us? And s and us being sad or lamenting something is not an unchristian response.
Cameron (32:05)
Hmm.
Nathan (32:12)
To bad things, but us grieving without hope ⁓ is short sighted theologically.
Cameron (32:19)
Beautifully said. You've been listening to Thinking Out Loud, a podcast where we think out loud about current events and Christian hope. If you like what we do, then tell somebody. Reach out and tell somebody. There's an old saying, reach out and touch somebody, but I don't think I like that one as much.
Nathan (32:32)
Reach out
and tell somebody their church is dying and it's okay. No, like that's not.
Cameron (32:38)
Yes, exactly.
There you go. That's another another t shirt idea for Nathan or a mug idea. But the mugs go to me. I I'm the one who drinks coffee. Nathan drinks tea though, so so there we go. But yes, you can you can tell somebody about it. So like, share, and subscribe. And if you'd like to support us financially, we'd greatly appreciate that. You can do that by going to www.TOLtogether.com