Is God Narcissistic? Why Christians Believe We Are Made to Glorify God
Nathan (00:00.888)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co host Nathan Rittenhouse.
Cameron (00:03.802)
and I'm your co-host Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:05.676)
Well, last time we talked about demons. So let's turn the corner and talk about a more positive vision of what it is that we're doing with our lives. And this topic and what does it mean to glorify God is a great question came in from one of the listeners who said, you know what, that sentence does not make a lot of sense to a non Christian. when somebody says, What is the the the purpose or what is what are you doing with your life? the question could be, why does God want us to glorify him? Is that not a bit narcissistic there?
Cameron, what's going on? now I I've before said that Cameron comes from a slightly more reformed and structured theology, maybe in some senses, and so he'll appreciate this story. In two thousand and ten, I broke my face off. I tried to take out a Jeep with a bicycle, and the physics of that just don't work out in favor of the person on the bicycle. So yeah. Anyway, a little helicopter ride because my brain was swelling and
It didn't really affect me, affect me, affect me much. And I was pretty scuffed up externally. My jaw was over on the side of my head somewhere. I was on a neck brace on a body, you know, stretcher. and my wife and her mom showed up to kind of look and see what was left of me, kind of in the coming off the helicopter into the thing, and obviously we're we're pretty concerned. And my my helmet strap had hit me in the throat, so my throat was swelling. So so I could I couldn't talk 'cause my throat was swollen.
Cameron (01:08.476)
You
Cameron (01:31.004)
understatement there, yeah.
Nathan (01:34.785)
also. and so I I motioned to get a little piece of paper. And mind you, my arms are strapped down on a backboard, but I could still use move my wrist. So I was like, so somehow they got me a little piece of paper and a pencil. And at this point they were trying to decide whether or not my brain was working. So I I wrote on the paper, I I wrote, Ask me a question, any question. And my mother in law said, What is the purpose of life?
So so mind you, this is the ER ICU trauma unit. And and I it's an it's an interesting question. I don't know what made her ask that. I don't know. I mean you're looking at an an I mean all my clothes are stripped that were cut off of me. There's blood everywhere, my teeth are knocked out. I and I slid down the road on my face partially, so you can imagine what the side you know the anyway, and so I wrote ask me a question, any question.
Cameron (02:06.876)
That's an interesting question from a mother and mother. Yeah.
Nathan (02:29.708)
Which was a weird thing to write anyway, I guess, so she could ask a weird question and she said, What is the purpose of life? And I wrote to glorify God and enjoy him forever. And she turned and looked at my wife and was like, He's gonna be fine and walked out of the room. So where did I get that line from, Cameron?
Cameron (02:43.004)
I'm clapping. Yeah.
Cameron (02:48.645)
that's Westminster Shorter Catechism.
Nathan (02:51.094)
That's all I know of the Westminster Schwarter Catechism.
Cameron (02:53.52)
That's all most people know. that's, you know what? It's probably the best thing in there.
Nathan (02:58.072)
Well, I was I'll tell you, so I attended a Mennonite church for a while in in college and had a a retired seminary professor for a Sunday school teacher there who was, yeah, a bit more on the reform side. And he would frequently ask me in passing, Nathan, are you living a doxological life? So doxa, the Greek word for glory, when you sing a doxology, you're singing glory to God. And so what was he asking me when he asked me if I was living a doxological life? He was asking me.
Cameron (03:11.014)
Mm.
Cameron (03:22.832)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (03:28.236)
Are you living a life that brings glory to God? So that was his way of his his spin-off, I guess, of the Westminster Shorter Catechism was to periodically ask me, Nathan, are you living a doxological life? He was a fun guy. I was very sad to when he passed as a mentor and friend. But okay. So Christians given this kind of answer, Cameron. What's the history on this? What's the background? Let's let's start with the why and then let's re articulate it.
Cameron (03:41.809)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (03:58.361)
for twenty twenty six and and moving forward, because it's a fantastic question. The sentence makes no sense from somebody who's a non Christian and it raises all sorts of fascinating questions.
Cameron (04:07.684)
Yeah, and I'm not sure we would have asked it as recently as 50 years ago. But now we're at a place where all of this is very, I mean, we're kind of just at ground zero, I think, when it comes to articulating Christianity. And so, in that sense, if you come to the Christian table with no real knowledge, then yeah, saying, well, I want to glorify God for all of my days.
doesn't, it's not self-explanatory, it doesn't make sense. And it does bring to mind some of those questions that people ask, well, isn't that narcissistic? So let's talk about that. At the heart of this, the glorifying language is also worship. Can I bring that word in here? Yeah. So we've heard, I mean, we've
Nathan (04:50.862)
Please do.
Nathan (04:55.672)
Well, wait a second. Let's can we go back farther than that? I I think that foundationally, so there isn't like it's not in Genesis chapter three or Second Thessalonians, you get to s get a sentence that says the chief end of man or the the purpose of humanity is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. Like that's not in scripture. That's why, like it it's extra biblical, but the the thing of it is is that it's predicated on the concept of being made in the image of God, actually, which means that
Cameron (04:58.096)
Yeah.
Cameron (05:13.978)
No, it's extra biblical. Yeah.
Nathan (05:25.78)
Our identity is derivative and is a referent to something that transcends us. And and this is going to be important when it comes to both to worshiping and glorifying, that part of it is is a statement about ontologically what a human was created for. We'll get in here.
Cameron (05:31.547)
Yes.
Cameron (05:40.739)
Mm-hmm. Yes. So you said something that transcends us, and you also said created. So let's begin, first of all, with a common misconception here. So when people say, well, after all, if I demanded that you worship me, Cameron, that would be arrogant and narcissistic. And the answer to that is, of course it is. Absolutely.
Nathan (06:03.054)
Correct.
Cameron (06:05.752)
And then the very basic answer here, and basic does not mean stupid, by the way. I'm not saying that basic just means we're at the very kind of the primal kind of territory of Christianity. This is why it's rearticulation. But a very basic truth here is that if Christianity is true, you are not God. I am not God. So God is our superior in every conceivable way.
Nathan (06:23.586)
You're not the top dog.
Cameron (06:31.568)
better than us, he's stronger than us, he's greater than us, he's more moral than us, he's... So he is infinitely, he exceeds us infinitely. All right? And not only that, he made us. So we are his creatures, sheep of his pasture. And yes, if you press into the, if you know anything about sheep.
Nathan (06:35.266)
I'm gonna change the channel right now, Cameron. I don't wanna hear about this.
Nathan (06:51.224)
The sheep, the sheep of his pasture, his flock.
Cameron (06:58.53)
or if you press into the biblical metaphor, it is an insulting metaphor. It is. But it's not misplaced when you look at the behavior of human beings when they don't have a shepherd.
Nathan (07:09.816)
Well, the difference between a human the difference between a human and a sheep is minuscule compared to the difference between a human and God.
Cameron (07:16.986)
Yeah. So let's, we have to start there. God is greater than human beings. If Christianity is true, I'm going to bring in the if clause, know, the if Christianity. Yeah. So if Christianity is true, God is greater than his creatures, necessarily greater than his creatures. They are his creatures and his creation. So that's where, so the, so the notion that it's arrogant of him to
Nathan (07:25.772)
Let's let's talk like we're talking to non Christians. Yeah. So
Cameron (07:47.356)
to demand worship, if we look at it in those terms, it becomes more of a category mistake when we think about it like that.
Nathan (07:53.903)
Okay, well, hang on. Let's so a lot of Epic Gilgamesh all the way back, a lot of God, there are a lot of creation stories mythology of the relationship between the gods and humans. And in a surprising number of the ancient Near Eastern ones, the gods created humans in order to feed them. So it was the work of humans to sustain the gods. So they were they were created as a slave class for the upper class of the divine beings. and so the gods needed food, and therefore the humans
Cameron (08:08.955)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (08:23.864)
Filled that need. There's going to be a categorical difference, I think, in the way you're going to answer my next question, which is does God need our worship or glory from us?
Cameron (08:32.092)
No, he doesn't need it, but we do. No, he doesn't need it, but we do. But we need it. it's not just that God wants us to worship him because his ego, yeah, inferiority complex, his ego needs stroking. God wants us to worship him because he loves us and we need it. So let's spell this out a little bit too. So you mentioned Greek.
Nathan (08:35.704)
You didn't even think about it, Cameron. yeah, there's there's the rub.
Nathan (08:48.352)
Inferiority complex. Yeah.
Cameron (09:01.51)
Greek gods, which are basically demigods, right? So they're like superheroes in a sense. That's sort of a crude analogy. But yeah, so they're great beings and human beings are lesser beings in the overall created order. It's not like that in Christianity. God is not numbered in creation's inventory at all. I'm borrowing that phraseology from David Bentley Hart. He's very good on this one. So God is not numbered in creation's inventory.
creation is brought into being ex nihilo from nothing by God. He himself exists in perfect self-sufficient fellowship and harmony as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit needs nothing.
Nathan (09:41.89)
He's the only eternally self satisfactory satisfying being.
Cameron (09:46.14)
Right. He needs nothing. There is no relationship of dependence whatsoever that he has with his creation. Creation is pure gift. So he does not need us at all, nor we are not necessary. It could easily be the case that we don't exist. He, on the other hand, is totally necessary, does not need his creation. So there's no relationship of dependence there on his end.
There's a relationship of complete and total dependence on our end and on the created end.
Nathan (10:20.536)
Well, hang on. S so we can go even slower here, because you've been saying if there is a God, and part of what you're giving here in the explanation to maybe the unbeliever is a clarification on the character and the nature of the God that you're refer referring to. Because this this does get tricky if you start throwing other gods in there. But if we're talking about the triune God revealed to us through the person of Jesus Christ and his interaction in history shown through scripture, then suddenly there's some there's some
Cameron (10:34.492)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (10:48.642)
very new things that the Old Testament prophets referred to the living God that come into play here. Carry on.
Cameron (10:52.38)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (10:56.537)
Yes. So if that's the case, if this triune God exists and created everything and brought it into existence out of pure gift, made human beings, now we'll have to talk about this a little bit. So human beings are special in the hierarchy of creation because they are endowed by their creator with that inestimable worth that we call
Imago Dei, they're made in the image of God. So we can bring that in. Still doesn't mean he's in any way dependent on human beings, but it does mean that human beings are uniquely made for relationship with their creator and a unique set of responsibilities to be and capabilities, all of that. So if that is true, if that arrangement, arrangement, this is such a trivial word for something so colossal that I've just just...
Nathan (11:38.836)
And a unique set of responsibilities.
And capabilities.
Cameron (11:54.628)
If that's true, then worship, worshiping their maker and that creator is going to be an integral part of how a human being actually flourishes, not just lives, but yeah, lives well and experiences true joy and happiness, yes.
Nathan (12:10.606)
Can I say something about worshiping?
Nathan (12:17.848)
So giving giving worth. So like you could say like a partnership, worship, g the the other part, the thing that is owed to the entity that is other than getting worth. I you can get complex about this, but I thought actually the way that I talk to my children about this is worship is simply our natural response to beauty. All of a sudden you see the sun pop up over the rise, you're like I you it's it's a and now what w yeah.
Cameron (12:23.666)
Okay.
Cameron (12:38.429)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (12:44.997)
It bubbles over. Yeah.
Nathan (12:46.754)
So what what we think of is as and so the word awesome is is a phrase of worship. It it it inspires all. If it's it fills us with that. and so the the thing that again, if this is true, then thinking about an eternally self satisfactory, all powerful, omnipotent, holy triune God who chooses to create out of grace and gift and reveals in such a way that his creatures can know and understand. Yeah.
Worship would be the response to that.
Cameron (13:18.461)
Well, and it's also just a normal human activity. Like you said, Nathan, there's a great section in C.S. Lewis's book on the Psalms. think it's Reflections on the Psalms or the name's escaping me title, but yeah, Nathan's going to find it on his book here on his bookshelf, Reflections on the Psalms, but where he talks about the human habit of praising. So yeah, you see a sunset that's really gorgeous or you hear a beautiful piece of music or something. Part of what complete... Yes. And so part of what...
Nathan (13:33.526)
Reflections on the Psalms.
Nathan (13:44.557)
You can recognize beauty. You're built for it.
Cameron (13:48.006)
Lewis uses the phrase completes the joy to share it with other people and basically to sing praises. Now he doesn't mean singing praises like you are singing a hymn, but it's not dissimilar in the sense you hear, there's something, you encounter beauty of some kind, whether it's a symphony, a beautiful sight in nature, a beautiful sunset, whatever it is, part of the joy is singing praises and sharing it with other people. And really if you press into that, you want to come to a place where you can offer
Thanksgiving. What are you going to thank? And so a huge part of, I mean, if you look at worship music, a lot of it involves just words of thanksgiving to God for his graciousness, for sending his only begotten son to die for our sins. I mean, just thanks and praise and that's part of what we as, but we do that anyway.
And if we don't render that to God, we render it somewhere else. So there's a kind of, there's, I'm just bringing that in here is that there's a sort of inevitability to worship and praise. We're going to praise and worship something. I mean,
Nathan (14:56.844)
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean you look at back in the day people talk about this as like look at a Miley Syrers or Justin Bieber concert. What's the crowd doing? Hands outstretched, you know, they there's a so we c we can do with football anything. Let me let me try to make a distinction between worship and glory. This is experimental here, Cameron, and I hope that I I'm I hope that I'm close because this is how I've been helping kids think about it. So if worship is our natural response to beauty, what is what does it mean to glorify? What does it mean to glory?
Cameron (15:02.855)
Correct.
Absolutely.
Cameron (15:14.929)
Yeah.
Nathan (15:27.256)
To to honor, to glorify something else. And I think it mechanistically functions in the same way as blame. So blame has a negative connotation. You walk into a room, there's cereal spilled on the floor, and you ask the question, whose fault is this? Who who did this? You're looking to say, who is responsible for the set of conditions that I see before me? Who's to blame? Glory functions in the same way.
But with a positive connotation. So when I'm when I'm blaming, I'm looking to see whose fault is this bad thing. When I'm glorifying, I'm pointing to whose fault is this good thing. Now, I I recognize that it sounds funny to say whose fault is this good thing, because fault is the negative connotation, but glory would be to say, I see the beauty and the splendor of creation around me. Who's responsible for this? And and the action of giving credit to who is responsible for.
for goodness, truth, and beauty is the act of glorifying.
Cameron (16:30.301)
I have a negative biblical example that backs up what you've just said. Going along with the blame. It doesn't go with the blame thing, but it involves not giving proper credit and trying to take the glory for yourself. So think about Nebuchadnezzar, right? I mean, that's a, I think this goes along with what you just said because, and you know, it's worth digging in occasionally to commentaries that describe just how extravagant Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom.
Nathan (16:35.24)
Yeah.
Nathan (16:41.88)
Okay.
Nathan (16:45.557)
yeah.
Cameron (16:58.705)
was, right? He had these elaborate gardens that were the marvel of his world, right? So he had a lot, okay? He was a Jeff Bezos, an Elon Musk, know, however you want to, but a creator. Right. And so he sat back and looked at his little fiefdom and just said, basically, I did this. Look, yeah, how great am I? Look at all this. It's amazing. Here's my kingdom.
Nathan (17:02.189)
yeah.
Nathan (17:13.816)
Creator of his own little thiefdom, yeah.
Nathan (17:22.254)
How splendid am I how splendid am I?
Cameron (17:29.045)
and he's reduced to the status of an animal. Now, it's a picture, it's a very stark picture. Now, there's another very metal, as one of my old pastors used to say, episodes in the Book of Acts where you have a powerful figure trying to take too much credit and being called like a god and then is eaten by worms. So, that's a picture also of somebody trying to take
Nathan (17:52.494)
Yeah.
Cameron (17:58.59)
credit and not recognizing their total dependence on their creator and their maker.
Nathan (18:02.808)
There's there's let's throw one more example in here out of the mouth of Jesus, when he cast out a demon, and the Pharisees said it's by the Prince of Dons he does this and he snaps. This is when he starts talking about the unforgivable sin, which is what? The inability to properly attribute goodness to good and evil to evil. And so when you start attributing good to evil, that's the unforgivable sin.
Cameron (18:10.511)
Oof. He gets mad. Yeah.
Cameron (18:24.603)
Yep.
Cameron (18:28.431)
Mm-hmm. You're so incredibly lost.
Nathan (18:30.124)
So anyway, getting your glory g glory and your worship right here might be important.
Cameron (18:34.533)
Yes. when you, so there's a special danger. It's one thing, the scriptural examples I just gave make it clear that there are degrees of delusion here. Some, you know, it's very, we mentioned Justin Bieber concerts and Miley Cyrus concerts. That's also, we're showing our age there. Sabrina Carpenter, let's update the list. Olivia Rodrigo, I don't know. But.
Nathan (18:55.626)
Yeah.
Cameron (19:01.413)
It's one thing if you have human beings who have, we even use the word idol, this person's a teenage idol. If they've made an idol out of somebody else, it's bad. But what's worse is when you try to glorify yourself in the ultimate sense. Those two biblical examples, one of which ends, the two that I gave ends in death. One is merciful. It's a very severe mercy, but it's a campaign carried out by the Lord to bring Nebuchadnezzar to his senses.
Nathan (19:14.126)
Mm.
Cameron (19:30.479)
when we start to think of ourselves as the captain of our ship or the master of our fate and our destiny, then we're in very, very serious trouble. So, yeah.
Nathan (19:39.001)
So think of it think of it as an inward curl, a continuous focus inward on the self. Or a cur the in it's it's it's gross. and and it's and this is so contrary to like the whole a whole lot of the meditative, find your inner self, look deep inside your s you know. well, okay. That that that is a that's continuing the narcissistic inward curl. You don't know or being eaten by a worm.
Cameron (19:42.989)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Curve inward if that...
Cameron (19:57.982)
Yep.
Cameron (20:03.261)
It's a recipe for eating grass if we look at Nezard. Yes.
Nathan (20:07.394)
Those are your two those are too biblical. You can eat grass or be eaten by a worm, or you can worship that. so so so worship is the outward curl. And and so that is why thy kingdom come, thy will be done is is the necessary prayer for human health.
Cameron (20:11.089)
Both of those are not good. Touch grass? Yes. Eat grass? No.
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (20:23.101)
Yes.
Cameron (20:26.971)
Yes, and it's preceded by hallowed be whose name? Thy name. Many of us say hallowed be my name, but that's not, again, don't eat grass. You're gonna eat grass. Don't do that.
Nathan (20:30.272)
I name. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan (20:39.33)
So so yeah, basically what we're saying here is that the biblical theology of of why why should we glorify God 'cause he's worthy of it. And it 'cause there's a weird way in which if you say the purpose of glorifying God is so that you have a better life, you've just deified yourself again as the as as the end goal. So you're now using your religion as a means to effective effectuate the end of yourself feeling special.
Cameron (20:57.788)
Yes.
Cameron (21:02.097)
Well, let me...
Cameron (21:10.471)
So that brings us to a very important part here. And let's bring the gospel to bear here because...
Cameron (21:18.747)
When we think about God and if we're thinking in terms of, no, isn't this arrogant, isn't this narcissistic, isn't this egotistical inferiority complex, we're thinking in those terms, okay, we've tried to make the case that those are, you're making basic category mistakes, but let's say you're still going down that road. Let's look at how this God interacts with his creation. What does he do? Does he,
insist on a transactional relationship, which Nathan, you just mentioned. A religious relationship, we might say, where you, as long as you, here's a set of rules, which include worship. As long as you follow these rules, you're in my good books. But if you depart from these rules, well, then you're in deep, deep trouble. That's actually not what we see. So we see a picture of humanity completely gone off the rails and lost.
and God, the wellspring of all creation, who's in no way dependent on his creation whatsoever, takes on flesh, condescends in the full sense of that word. This is what theologians will use, the word condescends, to take on flesh and to, in a crude phrase, meet us where we're at, pursue us.
Nathan (22:43.628)
Nauticism, self emptying Philippians two.
Cameron (22:45.809)
self-emptying. mean, this God, so you wanna, just think about that when the word, if the word arrogance pops into your head. Think about that. The living God who is infinitely superior to his creation takes on form.
Nathan (23:00.98)
Well, there's there's a little I mean, you so if there is a god, i is it more arrogant to worship that god or yourself? I I don't I don't s I don't see how you escape arrogance.
Cameron (23:12.881)
But even that notwithstanding, he takes on flesh, becomes human, lives the life we should live, the perfect sinless life, for which we are designed, by the way, and then dies for us in our stead, suffers in our stead, and then rises again so that we might be reconciled to him.
I mean, this is why worship music is animated by intense joy and thankfulness. And this is also why, by the way, people who are truly following Jesus, the furthest thing from their mind is condemnation and legalism or spiritual pride toward others because there are men and women who recognize that they have been forgiven everything.
and that they don't exist in a transactional relationship with God. You know, I am the reform guy. I have to bring it. I do think Tim Keller's phrase here is so, so helpful. And I think you'll like it too, Nathan. I mean, you've heard him probably say this. Every other religion says, I obey, therefore I'm accepted. Christianity says, you are accepted, therefore you can obey.
Nathan (24:37.218)
Yeah, we're we're we we our obedience is a response to receiving love, not the other way around.
Cameron (24:44.209)
And that also means, see, the other thing about the transactional or the religious relationship is then you have a little, it gives you the illusion of control. Why I did this, I did this for God, so I'm in his good books. There's a quid pro quo, but if Jesus really went to the cross for us, died for our sins and rose again, then there's nothing he can't ask of me. That's right. That's right.
Nathan (24:56.332)
Now God will do this for me. Yeah.
Nathan (25:11.724)
You are not your own, you are bought with a price. Therefore honor God with your body.
Cameron (25:13.245)
Not your own. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the place where a lot of us, mean, the, surrender is the scary part, yeah.
Nathan (25:24.226)
Well, hey, keep going here a second. Keep going here a second, because also part of this whole glory thing that we don't talk about maybe as much is the future glorification of the human. that and and not to say that we transcend God, but a that that having the mind of Christ Philippians two, that is is laid out as a paradigm for the the restoration toward created intent that God will bring about in in the end, which is a
Cameron (25:35.11)
Yeah.
Cameron (25:46.394)
Absolutely.
Nathan (25:54.189)
And this is C. S. Lewis's The Weight of Glory obviously would be a good good place to go go back and and read on this, of saying that you're we're not interacting with normal human. We you don't get to see the fullness of what a human was created for most of the time.
Cameron (25:56.766)
Beautiful place to go.
Cameron (26:08.189)
Well, what are we going to be doing in the new heavens and the new earth? Well, he was waiting for that. You have been waiting for that your whole, yeah. Farming, but also reigning. We are reigning with the living God. I mean, there's also a reason why C.S. Lewis has the Pevensey children with crowns on their heads.
Nathan (26:15.448)
Farming as an act of worship. No. Yeah.
Nathan (26:34.858)
Yeah, so but y I I I said I said the f the the the farming thing tum in tongue in cheek, but what I meant by that was not to set aside this the splendor of eternity, but to show that
I mean, from creation, humans were built to interact with the physical world. So so so so so we yeah, that's what I want to say. We will be doing stuff that is work and is good and is pointing to s to the goodness that transcends it all.
Cameron (26:53.252)
We'll be doing stuff, yes.
Cameron (27:03.889)
But the glorification piece is real. mean, we are to glorify our heavenly father. And then when we, I mean, now we see through a glass darkly, but one day we will see him face to face. When that happens, he will glorify us as well.
Nathan (27:20.246)
There there's there's a sense here that it it it the the the the vision gets too here's a crazy example. So I think an important part of glorifying God, we're gonna have to get into some to practical parts of this, is praying and giving thanks. and meal times are a natural place to do that. And years ago we were having a dinner and we sang a song and we said a prayer, and one of the kids said, Why are we thanking God for this meal?
Cameron (27:21.575)
Part of your destiny. Yeah.
Nathan (27:50.935)
We grew everything on the table.
Cameron (27:52.765)
It's a good question, by the way. Really good question. Yeah.
Nathan (27:54.751)
and so it's you know, it was like I don't know, maybe like roast chicken and potatoes and parsley and a salad or something. Like, and the yeah, and everything there, like they had been involved in the entirety of it, it's whole like the whole thing. And I just sat there like like you you you laugh or cry of like you live in the complex universe in which nutrition can spring forth from the ground that sustains your life and gives you breath.
And taste good at the same time. Why would we give thanks for that? And and so th there's like a I'm looking at that like I picked the cucumber, therefore I am the master of my own destiny. Like it's hilarious when you look at a four year old asking that, but then you just knock it up a couple levels in decades, and it's that same level of silliness to not be able to see through
Cameron (28:36.977)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (28:42.375)
Yes.
Nathan (28:49.198)
Yeah, whatever whatever it might be that you're excellent at to say it's it's you you know like your wife teaches piano, Cameron. All all people who do you know people who who would say, I'm really good at playing the piano?
Cameron (28:56.177)
Yep.
Cameron (29:01.309)
sure. Yep.
Nathan (29:02.988)
But but they're not twelve. Like there there's there's a there's a there's a range in there where you become good enough to be humble because you're then in proximity toward to the really great ones. You know what I mean? Like so there there's a little bit of that when it comes to glorifying God with our lives of this does not mean that you can't be excellent at the things that you're called to as humans. But in your in in in the excellent execution of a phenomenal thing.
Cameron (29:14.375)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (29:29.868)
It is all within the context of a created and designed and built order that blows our minds the more we understand it.
Cameron (29:33.788)
Yeah, well, you inhabit a planet with a set of minute conditions that will support carbon-based life. And then add to that the absolute, I think you brought in something tasting good. We could just call that, why don't we just call that gratuitous beauty. If you look in nature, my old friend Ken Boa mentions this all the time. It's not just that you have, things are not functional around here. They're gorgeous. They're jaw-droppingly gorgeous.
Nathan (30:00.323)
Well it so so if if a if a strawberry was five percent less tasty, would you still eat them?
Cameron (30:10.151)
Sure, of course.
Nathan (30:10.806)
Yeah. So they don't have to be I I'm I'm picking on a strawberry, that's probably kind of a modern engineered adaptation of things, but yeah, lots of lots of things could go in all all sorts of human pleasures could fit into that category. yeah.
Cameron (30:18.247)
Pineapple. Yep.
Cameron (30:26.365)
But yeah, just the sheer, I mean, the givenness of life, human capabilities, all of it. And sometimes, again, it takes the negative.
experiences to sometimes bring us back in touch with reality. If you experience, when we experience droughts, when crops fail, we're in a year where that's happening quite a bit. I was just reading up on some Nebraska farmers who have just encountered unbelievable trouble there. Well, when that happens, those are stark reminders that we are still, with all of our technological ingenuity, we're still dependent on the seasons. We're still dependent on the cycles of the...
Nathan (31:04.234)
yeah. And you but you get that old Habakkuk line, though the fig tree does not blossom and there be no fruit on the vine, though the produce of the olive fell and the fields yield no fruit, though the flocks be cut off from the fold and there be no herd in the stall, that's a significant agricultural downturn. Yet will I rejoice in the Lord. I will joy in the God of my salvation, God the Lord is my strength. So there there is something that transcends all of that that we rest in. Link
Cameron (31:32.155)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (31:33.794)
Because we're rambling on here. Link glory and enjoyment to glorify God and to enjoy.
Cameron (31:41.266)
Well, if we're properly in, if we're in a living and vital relationship with our Creator, then our souls, our whole entire being is properly nourished and we experience what we may call real joy or happiness in the sense of blessedness.
Nathan (32:02.722)
I like contentment. I've learned to be content in all circumstances, Paul says. Satisfaction is a good phrase. Abundance, abundant life. it is well with my soul would be a good
Cameron (32:04.593)
Content, yes. Yep. so, and that, it is well with my soul written under conditions of extreme grief. You just mentioned Habakkuk. So this is a condition that transcends your temporary circumstances. So it can be in times of scarcity or can be in times of abundance. It transcends all those seasons because it's rooted in something that is eternal.
and it's rooted in the living God. And it's also an anticipation of a future fulfillment. And so, yeah, and that future fulfillment will be very tangible, real, constant joy and abundance.
Nathan (32:41.954)
Yeah. But it but there's
Nathan (32:48.472)
But there's a present tense fulfillment to I mean not in its not in its fullness. Colossians is big on the on the on the t the yeah, the the the fullness language, but just to throw in another reference here, oftentimes when I'm speaking about this I have to use animal references. but this is a good one. So one of the things in my dad would talk about in his childhood of having a duck who is a terrible mother. And so you take the eggs from the duck and put it under a chicken, and then the chicken would hatch the ducklings.
Cameron (33:04.124)
You
Cameron (33:15.067)
Mm.
Nathan (33:17.738)
Obviously the ducklings think that the chicken's its mom, the mom thinks the duckling they're not that bright. They got it figured out, they think they go together, the chicken raises the ducks. It's fine. And Dad said there's always this one day though, when they're out walking along and all of a sudden they walk past a pond and all the little ducklings see water for the first time and their immediate instinct is to jump into the pond. And the chicken is very confident that the things that hatch under her are not supposed to jump into bodies of water.
Cameron (33:41.307)
Hmm.
Cameron (33:47.645)
You
Nathan (33:48.044)
So so she melts down on the bank. But the ducks, who were awkward in the way in which they moved in the world beforehand, webbed feet on solid ground are a little odd, suddenly found a tremendous amount of freedom because they had stepped into the thing that they were created for. And I think there's a sense of our salvation experiences like that, where you're waddling around in the world thinking this is awkward.
Cameron (34:03.005)
Mm.
Nathan (34:14.816)
It's semi-functional, but it doesn't feel right and everything is a bit different. And you're walking when you're meant to swim. And so there's a I think in the glorifying God and enjoying Him, there is a sense of stepping into that which we were created for that brings a sense of pleasure, even if it's difficult. I mean, I'm sure there are times that there are water is cold and there are snapping turtles underneath it. You know, I guess not all, but there's a a a
Cameron (34:22.63)
Hmm.
Nathan (34:40.48)
A sense of instinctual I was created for this and I delight in doing the thing for which I was made. And there's a satisfaction that comes in that.
Cameron (34:48.029)
It's a fantastic picture. Beautiful picture. I'm going to end there because it's so good. You've been listening to Thinking Out Loud, podcast where we think out loud about current events, the difference between chickens and ducks and Christian hope.
Nathan (34:56.512)
All right.
Nathan (35:13.25)
Thanks for tuning in. If you enjoy this type of content, remember you can like it, you can share it, you can subscribe to it. It really helps us out. And if you would like to help us out financially, you can do so by visiting www.toltogether.com and clicking on the donate tab. Go out there and glorify God.