Demons, Satan, and Spiritual Warfare: What Does the Bible Really Teach?
Cameron (00:01.421)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co host Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:05.121)
And I'm your co host, Nathan Rittenhouse.
Cameron (00:06.989)
So my a friend got in touch with me the other day, Nathan. Hi, Travis. Well, friend, mutual friend, and wanted some resources on demons. Yeah, I'm getting more of these myself. But the trouble here the trouble here was he had a person who had kind of tried to figure this this one out on on their own by consulting AI and got all sorts of wacky results. And so wanted some stable.
Nathan (00:36.438)
Yeah.
Cameron (00:37.397)
sources that would set this person straight and perhaps keep them out of wacky territory. But that kind of brings to mind something that came into our inbox, Nathan, doesn't it?
Nathan (00:50.412)
Yes. Well would you would you like to have a a a more detailed question? the
Cameron (00:55.305)
Yes. Let's get a let's articulating the question well is a huge part of the battle, and this is really well articulated.
Nathan (01:00.78)
Yes. So I'm gonna pick this up. This is from an email from somebody that I know from a whole different state who's asking a question about some curriculum and whatnot. Anyway, here are the questions that we want to pull out of this to discuss together today. What role do demons have in the world? How much power does Satan have in the life of a believer? What's the difference between struggling against Satan and satanic attacks and struggling against our flesh? And where are good places to study in the Bible that speak to this topic?
Nathan (01:31.778)
Good question.
Cameron (01:34.411)
Very good question. So let's let's just start. I think it's interest yeah, I mean it's interesting that first of all there's an I've noticed an uptick in questions on the supernatural in general and on the devil and and demons in particular in recent years. I think we've noted this in in past episodes.
Nathan (01:50.166)
Okay, let's stop right there a second. Let do you know the history of the use of supernatural? Where does that that term itself come from? 'Cause 'cause I would I would think that demon well no, I yeah, I I would think it's fairly recent in the sense that everybody just assumed demons to be part of nature and angels. I th there's a so I don't know, maybe that's a rabbit hole or to say we are living in a time in which we set that into a
Cameron (02:00.803)
Was that the romantics?
Cameron (02:09.463)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (02:17.857)
We we put the spiritual world into a yeah, it it's just an interesting way to phrase it. Like there's an assumption baked into the term supernatural that like I don't refer to rocks as I don't talk I don't talk about rocks as sub spiritual.
Cameron (02:30.433)
Well, let's talk about that for just a second.
Cameron (02:36.693)
Right. That is a modern development. So the specific term supernatural itself, I I don't have that right off ready to hand, but we do have the modern turn. We can just use that as a kind of umbrella phrase to cover a massive period. But the modern turn really involves a sharp distinction being made between the world the sensible, empirically verifiable world that can be known and
Everything else that evades our grasp. We have famously Immanuel Kant making that division between the Numenal and the Phenomenal. And then I like, you know, Francis Schaefer puts it into more pedestrian terms for us, upstairs, downstairs kind of view. That is a new but that is a modern development. You're right. If you if you look at sources from the Middle Ages, or you know, a helpful guy here is Charles Taylor talking about the way people behaved in the Middle Ages, the way they thought of human beings as sort of permeable.
Nathan (03:16.973)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (03:32.203)
We had we were we were like
Nathan (03:34.305)
Well, it's why you say bless you when somebody sneezes so demon can't get in because you're opening yourself up.
Cameron (03:39.147)
Right. You're subject to all sorts of influences. You're like human beings are like wind chimes, right? We're being we're being played by the elements, so to speak. But then you have you know we don't want to say buffered self for the billionth time, but you have you have the modern world where not only is there an is there a a s a sort of established assumption that there's this distinction between the natural and the supernatural, the the numinal and the phenomenal, the upstairs and the downstairs, but you can also
you really can sort of hide from it if you want. You can take shelter in all sorts of forms of, you know, technology and sort of shield yourself against that up to a point. I mean, it this is largely illusor il illusory, but you can kind of sleepwalk through that.
Nathan (04:18.369)
Ye okay, but up to a point, yes.
But I think there've been cracks in this in the last three years. At least. I mean, we you and I remember campus ministry from a decade ago. You know, that makes us old geezers now in this. or that's a bunch of silliness. Now people are talking about it. And people are experiencing things that they're much more likely to attribute to, like that the the mathematical models of reality for our experiences aren't mapping very well right now.
Cameron (04:28.161)
Major. Yeah.
Cameron (04:40.053)
No, not so much.
Cameron (04:54.391)
Well, so intra this and we'll s few more words on this really quickly because this is just the context in which these questions are arising. And w this is where a l yeah, but yeah. Before we get to the demons, a bit of where how we got here. Because I remember as recently, Nathan, as the nineteen nineties, it was very difficult to say the word Satan or talk about the devil without blushing in certain circles because it you it just felt embarrassing. It's every it was sort of, come on.
Nathan (04:59.085)
We gotta we gotta get back to the demons.
Nathan (05:21.525)
remember that Antony Scalia interview where they asked him if he believed in it in Satan? Yeah, and that was like the super like cringe can you believe there's a Supreme Court justice who believes there's a being called Satan?
Cameron (05:26.337)
Right.
Cameron (05:34.849)
Yeah. And there was now there were people, there were prophetic voices back then. I still think one of the best books on this subject is called The Death of Satan. That's by Andrew Delbanco, who's not a Christian at all, but who argued that the loss of a Christian language for evil was a major problem for human beings because we can't make sense of our experience without it. But anyway, we're not there anymore. If you if you talk about the devil and demons, or if you talk about evil, even in non Christian circles, people are with you.
So what's happened there? What where where are these let's talk a bit about those cracks and then let's get to the actual demons and scripture.
Nathan (06:09.665)
Well, okay, so so one is a dissatisfaction with Christianity turning to other forms of spirituality, the whole Wicco Wicken witchcraft element of pursuing the the occult. Yeah. So but but here's the thing is in in our analysis, that's a very Western perspective because you have to recognize that a huge chunk of the world still sees spirit as the thing that is real and matter as the illusion. And
Cameron (06:17.705)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
The occult well pagan, occult, you name it. Yep.
Cameron (06:31.283)
one hundred percent.
Cameron (06:38.209)
Well, they don't have the luxury of believing the spirit realm isn't real. You could almost say. I mean
Nathan (06:44.021)
Right. And so the the the Yeah, so you're you're you're from your voodoo dolls to your talismans to your witch doctors to your local shaman, most of the world lives in a deeply spiritually infused and ritualistic practices to I mean it's like did you buckle your seatbelt today and brush your teeth?
Cameron (06:53.869)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (07:03.969)
Right. That's just the way of the world. That's I mean, down the ages, up to the very present. We have this little narrow sector in Western culture that we assume is normative for everybody. It's not. Yeah.
Nathan (07:15.287)
So that's another part of the context is not just where we are chronologically, but also geographically, that we we have lived in a weird little bubble that yeah, makes us I I think this is where the question is coming from. a recognition that the world is more complex and enchanted than we thought, that maybe there actually have been shortcomings in our even biblical theology in talking about this in the modern era, and then having a very warped, reductionistic, materialistic view.
Cameron (07:18.721)
Yeah. True.
Cameron (07:23.415)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (07:28.909)
Yes.
Cameron (07:32.588)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (07:44.319)
of reality and then those structures crumbling around us and we're wait, there still is a there there that
Cameron (07:50.168)
Yeah. Well, listeners might be surprised to hear me say this, but this is what I think is one of the fruits of postmodernism and what was called multiculturalism. So the multicultural project as a as a cultural project and a political project project failed decisively. But it did bring one of the good things here is that it brought a multitude of new perspectives to bear. It helped us to get over our sort of tunnel vision that we had here in the West for a while that you were just describing, Nathan.
And it helped us to recognize there are other ways of looking at the world. There are and there are many people who live as though the spiritual realm is isn't another separate realm. It's just an established reality. So yeah.
Nathan (08:29.517)
Okay, but but here's the here's the fun part of this as a Christian though, is that as as that conversation develops, the New Testament makes more sense. So it's it's not like, they're new questions and we don't have resources. It's like, there are new questions. Wait a second. All of Jesus' interactions with demons.
Cameron (08:41.995)
Yes.
Nathan (08:54.295)
Ten years ago, like what did that have to do with anything? Now it's like, that's pertinent.
Cameron (08:57.409)
Yes. Very, very relevant. Well, and the other factor here, Nathan, the other you know, so these perspectives are here, but now people are are playing with this stuff and experimenting with it. And it's true while it's true that we do treat it largely like consumers rather than devotees, sometimes what we're playing with plays back. And people are having what people are having experiences. They're having real experiences. And
Nathan (09:06.839)
Mm. Yeah.
Nathan (09:16.171)
Okay.
Nathan (09:21.187)
I I can go through a huge list of people who were jarred into in fact my broth one of my brothers was in a Bible study in college that some guys came and joined who had gotten farther down the
Cameron (09:23.563)
As could I. Yep.
Nathan (09:34.571)
rode on the occult than they thought and they had killed a rabbit with a spell and it just freaked them out properly that with non physical means they had taken the life of another creature and they're like, We've got to backpedal out of this I I mean, yeah, we could go on and on of stuff like that, but anyway.
Cameron (09:38.122)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (09:50.914)
Yes. That's where we're at. That's we where we are at now as as a culture. So let's let's turn to scripture, which is gonna be very
Nathan (10:02.317)
Well, okay, what's what's a demon according to scripture?
Cameron (10:06.081)
Well, one way of lo of looking at it that I think has has always been very helpful. So it's I mean, it's a fallen angel or but also it is a distinct it's a it's an invisible person.
This isn't my answer. This is Derek Prince's answer. Evil, but it's a it's a it's an invisible this it's a personality. So me Yeah, so add on to that, Nathan. Yeah.
Nathan (10:26.647)
Can I can I add one other detail here? Yeah. Well, one other thing is demons are not created by Satan. That that slips in here from time to time that it's a it's an offspring or an offshoot of evil or Satan. We don't have any recorded power we don't have any record of Satan having the capacity to create anything. So whatever a demon is, and you're it it better be something. It's God created it. That that's the point that we want to that I want to stick in here. We'll we'll come back to this later. That it is a
Cameron (10:53.292)
Yeah.
Nathan (10:56.521)
A creature not made by Satan.
Cameron (11:01.015)
Yes, it's it is it is created. It's non so the scriptural attitude toward demons is really interesting. I am tempted to describe it as almost nonchalant in a sense. At least certainly that that's Jesus' attitude. And we can gain a an important principle here on how on our at on our basic attitude here. We want to be aware.
Nathan (11:17.195)
I'm with you.
Cameron (11:30.219)
We want to be I mean, we do want to exercise proper caution, but the mode of conduct is not one of crippling fear or morbid fascination or total ignorance or avoidance either.
Nathan (11:46.36)
See, but so this is this is the heart of the question though. I think this is like let's wallow here a second. Like I have a nonchalant attitude about unicorns. I don't think they ex like I don't think they exist, but it doesn't impact my life. and and so it it it why is it so hard that you either go from total denial or total infatuation in in in this category?
Cameron (12:08.15)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (12:12.715)
You don't have to answer that right now, but let's hold that in the back of our minds because I think all of us are immediately labeling movements, books, movies, people we know. It it's it's like a it's not a flat road in between somehow. It almost always slopes to the ditches.
Cameron (12:15.149)
Yeah.
Cameron (12:30.146)
Yes. Well part of part of that has to do with if so if if we if you believe that demons Satan and his and his minions, that they are indeed real, then you and you begin to take into account consider okay, let's consider some of what they do. This is, I think, part of the source of the of fascination. So there's there are mysterious elements here as well. That the mysterious things and entities are interesting in and of themselves, but also
demons hurt people. So they are cap they are capable of doing real harm.
Nathan (13:02.327)
Mm-hmm.
And and in this list, just think of biblical references as Cameron makes this list. So f throwing kids into fires, trying to drown people, foaming at the mouth,
Cameron (13:09.966)
We'll name some of them. Yep. Yep. Yep. So I think a place where a lot of people go now, especially if they've been schooled in horror films, is that they think immediately of possession and things like that. So that's that's an extreme case, but demons also oppress. Part of part of what they're doing, if you if there's a strategy b if you think about the strategy behind it, is they're seeking they're they are there to hurt you to torment you. And they'll use they'll use various
strategies. And again, I'm not I'm not pulling this from some sort of esoteric source. I'm pulling this from the the the scriptural data. They will they can use they can try to d discourage you, but they can also use physical means, right? Throwing into the fire, you know, the the the men who are the d demoniacs at the at the Gaterenes were ex so exceedingly violent that they were it but th that's an interesting scene in Matthew because they're they're also they're restrained, right?
Nathan (13:59.619)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (14:07.128)
And they would be they would break they were so exceedingly violent they would break out out of their chains and their restraints. But that just shows that there was an established kind of disorder in that region where they, yeah, we just know that these two possessed guys are right here. So just w watch a step when you go around that bend.
Nathan (14:17.933)
But but that's that's I so I know some very like theologically conservative exorcist? That's not the right word, but people who have been involved in deliverance ministries and they would say and and they would say that extreme physical strength. Like one of them talked about being outrun by an old lady for like a quarter of mile, like way faster than he like service jumped up and she just took off and was like Yeah
Cameron (14:30.424)
Deliverance ministries, yeah.
Cameron (14:44.162)
Now, just to back Nathan up here, there is well there's a wealth of evidence and data on this as well. I mean, so many different cases. I mean, from deliverance ministries, but also the Catholic Church, because the Catholic Church has such a a carefully established exorcism ritual and they have loads of records and evidence on we don't want to sound but the very the very fact I'm still a little self conscious.
Nathan (14:45.057)
So so there are some physical manifestations that aren't necessarily
Cameron (15:11.308)
saying some of this, Nathan, not because I don't believe it's true, but because I am so keenly aware of how people, we as human beings, can take it and run with it and go in all sorts of wacky directions.
Nathan (15:22.175)
Okay, but here let me comfort you. The danger is to not talk about it at all. And I think that's what most of our churches have decided to do because there have been some crazy people out there talking about it. We're like, we don't want to associate with the crazy, therefore we won't talk about the content.
Cameron (15:27.16)
Course. Absolutely.
Cameron (15:38.616)
So let me make a distinction. So I I mentioned the nonchalance of Jesus. So but we are not each of us we now we are given as Christians, as people who follow Jesus, we are given and charged with his authority, but we are still not the son of God. So he has he has I mean, he is the son of God. So that nonchalance that we see, that's probably not the right word, but that kind of
Nathan (15:51.752)
Nathan (16:02.015)
It's asymmetric power. Th that's where so it's kind of in the way that I'm not that I feel about turtles.
Cameron (16:04.084)
Exactly. I mean, he's not
Cameron (16:09.44)
Right. I I doubt that demons are gonna be begging me to cast them into a herd of pigs. But y you just never know. But we do see similar responses, interestingly enough, to to the disciples in the book of Acts. So an I mean another episode that's worth bringing in here. So I think s we're we're we're kind of just out with all of this at once. We've said this before on the podcast. There are different rituals and d I mean
Nathan (16:15.329)
You never know, Cameron.
Cameron (16:38.904)
That work sometimes. Super na you know, what what you know, playing with these kinds of things. We think we're in control and we're not, but they they do work. So that I'm I have in mind that episode with the the fortune teller essentially in the book of Acts, the girl who hit and she was telling the truth. And she was telling the truth when she said, These men are servants of, you know, the the most high God. And then but does does Paul run away cowering, no, she's possessed. He gets annoyed.
Nathan (16:51.221)
Yeah, yeah, she was telling the truth.
Nathan (16:58.829)
Yeah.
Cameron (17:06.884)
Yeah, I think this is one of the only you would I mean, this wouldn't work as a movie, would it? An exorc an exorcism that's that's motivated by irritation. It just doesn't work as well, you know, it doesn't carry the same dramatic and terrifying force. Yeah, he's so annoyed that he casts out the demon and then her employers are absolutely irate because they were making now they're they're yeah, their money is is gonna be in jeopardy because this lady can't do what she was doing.
Nathan (17:34.242)
Mm. Well, there's another funny one in Acts, back to the physical strength thing. Remember when the guys tried to cast out the demon and the demon's like, We know who Paul we know who Jesus is and we know who Paul is, but who are you? They r run out bleeding. S seven of them, yeah. So when you that that's all the back to say demons hurt people. Okay. There's that one. There's the how did you word it? Oppression? the persuasion, the
Cameron (17:41.885)
yeah. And then they are Yeah, seriously wounded, yes.
Cameron (18:00.418)
Yeah, there's possession, there's oppression. There's a difference between possession and oppression. I know that brings up a very another question that we might want to hit here at some point is whether I've I've been being asked a lot lately whether Christians can be possessed by demons. But that they can oppress, they can in some cases, they I mean they can possess, they can and I think I mean we also have scriptural evidence that they can in some cases cause illness sometimes. Now they they're on a leash.
There's a there's a picture here, and this I owe this picture to Richard Loveless in his book The The Dynamics of of the Spiritual Life. But he talks about remember that scene in The Pilgrim's Progress where Christian has to walk carefully between those two lions that are chained at either side. Now he could if he wanders in the wrong way, those lions can absolutely do serious damage. But they are they're they are chained. There's only so far that they can go.
Nathan (18:59.871)
Mm-hmm. Well, let me back up on the possession one, because there is a whole lot of scripture about being filled with the Holy Spirit. And so there there is a and there and there is a sense of remember it talks about like demons being cast out, but then if the house remains empty, they go and collect more and come back with a with a very s I mean the sense is there that there's a spiritual vacuum in each human that's going to be filled with something, and and which spirit or spirits is it going to be?
Cameron (19:01.934)
They have leashes, so to speak. Yeah.
Cameron (19:09.507)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (19:26.712)
Yes.
Nathan (19:29.715)
Also the conversion experiences of like shaman, or people who really do live in a deeply animistic are very much framed in sense of expelling the spirits and being filled with the presence of Christ and with the Holy Spirit as a
Yeah, I I'm not inoculation or like the all the words are crude here, but to say like if there isn't an emptiness there then there isn't room for a an evil spirit to c so you don't have to worry as a Christian about walking down the sidewalk and all of a sudden, well bam, a demon got you.
Cameron (19:56.529)
Occupy it.
Cameron (20:02.488)
Yeah, you're you're you are Peter Kraft said this once, you're haunted as a Christian, the best sense. You are occupied territory. But let let's let's say I mean also you can see and this gets complex and it r and it does require discernment. Demons get involved. I mean, remember Satan and and his cronies are clever, been around for a long time.
Nathan (20:07.979)
Yeah, or yeah, armor of God. Yeah.
Cameron (20:29.43)
And so they do become immeshed in structures of evil and corruption. Where often what happens that I mean, corruption is a key sign. Wherever you see seeds of of of chaos or or deep seated, deeply rooted corruption in a culture or society, there there are demonic elements there as well. Whether we're talking about organized crime, whether we're talking about deep seated governmental corruption, those those things I'm not I don't want
Nathan (20:51.595)
Okay. okay. Hang on.
Nathan (20:57.793)
Yeah, I'm I'm with you. I I agree, but
Cameron (21:00.984)
Well you want to be careful because there's a there is a liberal response to that that kind of says that's all we're talking about. And there really are no demons. There there are just sort of different structural features of society that are constitute the principalities. That's not at all what we are saying, by the way. Yeah. Mm hmm.
Nathan (21:14.039)
Yeah. Boo. Okay, so so here's the thing, Cameron. In so you as as we're making kind of this mental Rolodex of the biblical passages on this, you have phrases like, and Thessalonians when Paul says, I wanted to visit you, but Satan thwarted me. Do you ever use that kind of language in your daily life? Like, I was going to do that, but Satan thwarted me. I don't. Maybe I maybe may maybe I should more of it it it seems to me that the
Cameron (21:29.059)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (21:37.251)
No.
Nathan (21:42.402)
The interactions with the demonic, like C. S. Lewis's little the screw tape letters seem more pertinent than the this Ouija board unburied itself in my backyard, as the way in which the demonic interacts i in our in our lives. but as we're making that list of the ways in which this shows up, so you talked about hurting people physically, about kind of supernatural strength or or clairvoyance gifts or that kind of thing.
Cameron (21:54.158)
Sure. Yeah.
Cameron (22:12.994)
Discouragement and depression are hallmarks of spiritual attacks too. We have a tend you gotta be real careful with that because we have a therapeutic culture and I'm not necessarily disputing that there aren't some real benefits to to therapy and counseling and professional help. Of course there are. But there
Nathan (22:13.695)
Or discouragement and de
Yeah. But
Nathan (22:30.005)
It it you you've you've been open about the way that you've wrestled with some of this in the past, I think of and also reading things like David Brainerd, and and other goodness, there's a dark. do you do you make a distinction for you personally between depression and like a spiritual heaviness? 'Cause cause I would say there are times in which I feel just a a a a weighted lethargy spiritually that I don't quite put as a as a depression.
Cameron (22:35.927)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Cameron (22:54.116)
It's a complex.
Nathan (22:59.67)
maybe that's too nuanced of a question.
Cameron (23:02.636)
I'm gonna answer the well ni it's very it's a care I I wanna answer it very carefully because there are people out there who will benefit and need professional care and help. So I don't hear me disparaging that. But I also think as a culture, our tendency is to immediately run to medicine and therapy and some of our other technology some of our other culture
mo the technologies of modern culture rather than to the church. I experienced three years of very severe depression, and I'm speaking only of myself here, that I came to realize was spiritual in nature. That I and I came to recognize that this was this was a concerted spiritual attack on me. Once I recognized that, the spell was broken. Now did did I instantly feel happy clappy all the time? No. But
There was this has happened twice in my life now, once when I was twelve years old and then one once in the, you know, not too recent p recent past here. And both times when I finally came to my senses, and that's the word I'm gonna use, when I had a moment of grace and clarity and prayed fervently, I was delivered.
Nathan (24:21.783)
Amen.
Cameron (24:23.018)
So yeah, so I think there are there therapy and different, you know, counseling services, professional help, all that that can be very, very helpful. But there are areas and realms that only prayer is going to really heal.
Nathan (24:37.069)
Okay, let me make this harder. Let me make this more complicated. So I'm this is my job. So 'cause 'cause there are, I think you're right, and maybe an overly medicated, overly guruy kind of medicalized everything, you know, there's that. But then there's also going to be a sliver of people who say, Okay, I'm I'm feeling down today.
Cameron (24:39.848)
boy, you that's what you said is hard enough. Yeah.
Nathan (25:02.985)
It's demonic oppression. Quick. How do I find the person who can deliver me from this? and it and I'm sometimes I'm looking like, well, maybe it's because you're sleeping four hours a night. Like, so I this is the struggle. I I don't I don't want to be a cynic or a skeptic. It's all biblical, it's all there. And ninety percent of the stuff that I see people talking about and using, I'm like, yeah, I don't think that's it.
Cameron (25:05.003)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Cameron (25:13.657)
Right.
Yep.
Cameron (25:28.972)
I remember when I was I went to a Bible college, so there are some uniquely weird features of being at a Bible college when you have, you know, spiritually immature students. And I remember a couple of very z I mean, most people I know who went to Bible colleges have similar stories. There was there there were groups of very zealous students who would go on prayer marches and saw hobgoblins and demons behind, you know, every tree and every pillar of the campus and all of those. Yeah. But again
The completely boring, responsible, grown up answer here is that you want to exercise just basic wisdom and discernment. So yeah, if you're if you look at your life and you're getting yeah, you're you're not prior to getting proper rest, your diet is terrible, you never move physically or anything like that. You never You're not in Christian community.
Nathan (26:17.111)
You're not in s and you're not in Christian community. You you're not worshiping with other people.
Cameron (26:21.666)
You you have a you subsist on a steady diet of panicked and frantic news all the time, or you just or you just watch real after real after real. Well then if you tell me, Yeah, I'm I'm struggling with terrible depression and and anxiety and and I I just don't know what's going on, I would say, Well, I have a few very easy practical steps that will pretty much put this in the bag for you and you won't need an exorcist.
Nathan (26:42.197)
Yeah.
Maybe using your maybe using your body and soul in the way in which God intended them would would be help here. Okay. Let's take a little theological rabbit trail here in the middle. Cards on the table. Cameron comes from a little more reformed sovereignty that version of things. I come from a little more free willy side of things. this gets tricky here because as we're making that list of things that Satan thwarted, demonic oppression, you don't
Cameron (27:08.291)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (27:14.357)
Yet in all of that you don't see anybody in the Bible say the devil made me do it. You don't have anybody blaming the demonic for spiritual. Now you do have the God of this age has blinded the mind of the unbeliever. So there's there's a meta version of this, but the human human nature plays a role in this too. And and this is the flesh. And so this is the this is a
Cameron (27:19.361)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (27:39.01)
The flesh. We gotta talk about flesh. Mm-hmm.
Nathan (27:43.736)
Bring Grandpa Rittenhouse into this, because talk to him about all the random stuff all the time as a kid. And he would say, It's interesting that the only thing that can't be cast out of you is your will. Now, however you want to define that, is that G Jesus cast out demons, he calmed the storms, he walked on water, he raised the dead, and he wept over the hearts of men because that was the one thing that he wouldn't immediately just instantaneously make conform to his will.
Cameron (27:53.944)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Cameron (28:08.652)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan (28:12.159)
And so there is an element of us that is crooked, broken, bent, warped, and s narcissistic and self infatuated that is not demonic. It's our own empty brokenness and and that has to play in so it it i and I and I put our cards on the table there, Cameron, because I think on ninety percent of the middle of this, you and I would agree. Maybe there would be some fringe things that listeners in the wings would be like doesn't work.
Cameron (28:42.07)
Most of it we would, yeah. Well because yeah. I mean a
Nathan (28:43.692)
But
So I'm just saying let's let's be realistic about human nature when we're talking about this also. What do we think is the baseline for normal human activity?
Cameron (28:51.49)
Yes. Yeah, and for and for the record, if you if you go back to the the reformers and all of that, all of them believed in moral agency, including John Calvin. It's only when you get into the the kind of theobro Calvinism of of recent years that you get into some of the the weeds on on on that stuff. But yeah. Well the flesh, let's define it. Well let's give a real basic definition. I would I would define and you can add anything you want to this, Nathan, or you can attack me if I'm if I'm
too reformed here. I'm just kidding. No, I would say I would just define the flesh as the range of human powers. It's not limited to your yeah, I mean it doesn't mean flesh does not mean your anatomy. It can inc it includes your body and the powers that you're with which your body is endowed, but it's the range of your human powers.
Nathan (29:22.913)
Yeah.
Nathan (29:41.343)
Okay, well let's let's clarify something here because having said that, you do not believe that human bodies are bad.
Cameron (29:47.906)
No, absolutely not.
Nathan (29:49.205)
Or that the physical that the phys so this is the distinction. You're saying the physical is good, but the fleshly nature
Cameron (29:58.158)
So what's what's bad about when when the Bible is speaking about flesh in negative terms, it's talking about Sarks, right. It's talking about human beings relying on their own strength and their own powers rather than recognizing their dependence on God. So that's bad.
Nathan (29:59.106)
Distinguish.
Nathan (30:03.671)
Sarks is the word you're looking for.
Nathan (30:15.333)
It's there's a there's a parallel here when it talks about like the ways of the world, like the lust of the eye, the you know, the pride of life so so friendship with the world is enmity toward God. Well, clearly God hates the world. No. Physical creation good, but the way of the world is broken.
Cameron (30:22.412)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Cameron (30:26.649)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (30:31.992)
Well, world define d help us here real quickly, Nathan. Define the the world real quickly, the w as distinct from the created order. What the what scripture me when it says the world, the flesh and the devil, what does scripture mean by world in that?
Nathan (30:43.169)
Yes, so so by world it's meaning the the natural pattern of humans. So so that I'm I'm using that as a parallel distinction between the flesh and our physical bodies, to say that you can you can condemn the way of the world and still delight in God's creation. You can be attuned to the brokenness of your flesh and still thank God for the physical body that He's given you and see the goodness of creation. So that's the parallel I was trying to make.
Cameron (31:07.266)
Yeah, so th the the Yeah, so that I mean the flesh the Sar Sarks is, you know, the range of of h human powers and the tendency to rely on those powers. Yeah, right. And the world we might define as the network of those human powers as established around us in a given culture and a society.
Nathan (31:17.729)
And there's the different word soma for body. So I mean, in Greek that's distinguished out as we go through there. Yeah.
Nathan (31:27.561)
Under under the under the under the power of of Satan. Jesus said I saw Satan fall, refers to him Prince of the World, when Satan in the temptation offered Jesus the kingdoms of the world. Jesus didn't say you don't have the right to offer that.
Cameron (31:32.19)
Absolutely. Yep.
Cameron (31:39.524)
So when you look at the world, we see a deep what I I'm I've taken to calling this, I'm developing this concept for a talk at the Summer Academy. The Summer Academy. You should come to the Summer Academy. It's in it's in July this summer. We're gonna be in Illinois at a beautiful monastery. Nathan and I will be there, and Andy Bannister will be there, and Kevin Van Hooser will be there, and Stuart McAllister. Title of my talk is Faith in a Post Secular World. Because I I
Nathan (31:47.875)
yeah. Come on down for the price is right.
Nathan (32:02.305)
What's the title of your talk?
Cameron (32:08.726)
I wanted to sound as pretentious as I possibly could. But I've but I've been playing around with this. So come to the Summer Academy. If you want to find out more about it, go to the C.S. Lewis Institute's website, www.cslewis institute.org, and just click the Summer Academy banner. Get all the information you need there. But I've been playing with this concept of what I'm calling established disorder, which is one render rendering of the world, scriptural view of the world. But I want to give a yeah. Yes.
Nathan (32:30.217)
yeah. Mm-hmm.
Well, see the so the ocean, the sea functions as a proxy for that in the Bible. The spirit of God hovering over the surface of the deep or the chaos of the Leviathan or the vision of revelation where there is no more sea, this deep, constant turmoil that's unnavigable and destructive. Yeah.
Cameron (32:45.604)
Yes. Convulsions, storms. Yeah. Well, think about one I wanted to give a contemporary example, which I think has demon demonic elements in it. So look this let's take this Ebola outbreak in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. It's just spreading. But what's also happening is you have healthcare workers there who are, you know, risking their lives doing doing very serious, important humanitarian work. And what's happening?
Are they being rewarded for their efforts? No. They're being attacked in some cases. There have been, you know, they're having tents set on set on fire. There have been shootings at hospitals. Why? Well, that's a manifestation of the destab as established disorder of the world. So you have people who are trying to they have burial rituals, right? So the bodies of people who have who have succumbed to Ebola are highly, highly, you know, contagious and dangerous. So there are they're they're careful. But there are also
burial ritu rituals that the people of this region have. And so they want the bodies back. And so they're they're protesting these, you know, the fact that they can't have the burial rituals and they're trying to get the bodies back, or they're attacking healthcare workers. Now, there are demonic elements to that, I believe. I think that's also a manifestation of the deep disorder of the world on the ground. Also you have notorious corruption in that region and conflicts that are erupting. So here you have a situation which you would hope would bring people
Together for the sake of saving lives and meeting the challenges of this crisis, and you see the opposite, and it makes sad sense, as we often say. There is nothing surprising about that because this is the d the established disorder of a fallen world where there are powers and principalities at work. But
Nathan (34:29.442)
But
Nathan (34:33.163)
I have come that may they may have life and have it to the full. So creating order out of chaos is the work of God and is the calling of the Christian. So I think that might be to loop us back around from what you very helpfully said there is to say, what are the you know, so how do you do this? Here's how how here's how Cameron and I are doing this. We're going through, we're looking at what are the biblical examples of the ways in which demons actually interact with people, where Satan is actually referenced, and then say, what was actually happening here?
Cameron (34:36.163)
Mm.
Cameron (34:43.299)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (35:02.168)
Mm.
Nathan (35:03.083)
Did the devil make me do it? Does the devil have pointy horns? No. So just going through and and militantly saying, actually, this Bible does not say that, or scripture does say this. That's one starting point. Then the flip side of it is that in our biblical and wise Christian community.
the spiritual interaction with this, does it bring love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self-control? Is is that the outcome? Or is it still like chaos is still there? I'm still fighting the demons every day. We gotta watch out for the you it th there's a sense there, Cameron, if you're if you're marching around and you're continuously seeing the hobgoblins behind all the lamppost, you're still in the established disorder. You haven't stepped into the kingdom of light that Christ is calling us into. So it's
Cameron (35:51.576)
Mm.
Nathan (35:55.936)
It's real, but it's not there there's something about the continued infatuation with it that is an indication of missing the power of the Holy Spirit, the promise of the resurrection, the nearness in the presence of God, and God's ability to create order out of that that's where the dismissive part of this comes from from the the the apostles and disciples and from Jesus Himself and from modern Christians.
Cameron (36:08.76)
It's
Yeah.
Cameron (36:17.368)
Well, I I think the word I wanna use is is is vigilance, because that's that's really what we get from from Peter. You know, when he says, you know, be you know, be aware, you know, your d your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion lion seeking someone to devour. That's a person taking this seriously. But the infatuation thing is a mark of spiritual immaturity. So you want to cultivate vigilance and awareness. And the primary weapons you're using, by the way, are are gonna be prayer and God's word.
So so that you're s in church in worship? Yeah.
Nathan (36:47.243)
Yeah. Well, well, so hey, well, can I can I just throw some anecdotal things on here? This is Nathan's anecdotes, reading about it, yours, everybody's. There's there's some other features here. When it comes to these types of questions, I really do look for people who have spiritual maturity. How and and talk to them about it. How do you know what spiritual maturity looks like? It's not who claimed to have cast out the most demons last week. you're looking for committed, faithful lives that
Cameron (37:16.356)
Yeah.
Nathan (37:16.673)
Model the pattern of Christ that show the fruit of the spirit, not only in themselves, but in the relationships that they have with the people around them. That's how, you know, disciples are being formed in the presence of this person. That's and and they will have helpful things to say to you about spiritual warfare. However, it does seem like we do have a cottage industry of spiritual warrior specialists who like that's the entire thing that they do. I did not wake up this morning thinking about tuberculosis.
Cameron (37:45.636)
Mm.
Nathan (37:46.168)
Which is fantastic. Is it a real thing? Yeah. It does it is it a problem? Should you be vigilant about it? Yes. Does it like it would be odd if that was like the primary thing that I thought about when I woke up this morning? is is the disorder. If if if I I have enough like I d I don't need help being attuned to the disorder. and so I'm trying to grow toward the light. Here's the other thing.
Cameron (38:08.708)
Yeah, if you're a doctor, you're not gonna look primarily at disease as your guiding principle. You're gonna look at health. Yeah.
Nathan (38:14.889)
Exactly. Great word. And here's the thing. I think as you're thinking about I th this is just Nathan. I in the past have looked at people who are hyper spiritual. They're always casting out demons. They're always y fighting the what like ever since I was a little kid, I've known people in various categories of this. And I always thought, Man, there's something a little weird going on here. You know, as a kid you're like, what? Yeah, I'm not sure about this. and then then I went through a phase where I recognized the
Where I thought that was like just arrogance and pride, like, this person's trying to show that they're hyper spiritual. And then probably in the last however many years, I've come back around to recognize actually there's a real vulnerability. there there are personalities that this gravitates toward around that'd be a whole nother psychological thing to think through. But there's there's a a a vulnerability in a lot of lives of people who are infatuated with this where they don't feel like they have a high sense of agency in their own lives.
And so pushing everything back into the spiritual realm and it's all about demons, it's all about Satan, it's all about this I'm I'm a victim of the spiritual, my my life isn't working out the way that I want to because of these spiritual forces. that's that's hard to parse through. But it does give us a different sense of gentleness, I think, as we're working with people who are hyper focused on this, to say, hey, there's as as they grow and walk in the force.
Cameron (39:29.305)
Mm.
Nathan (39:42.136)
Fullness and the maturity and the confidence of being filled with the Spirit and knowing Christ, some of this will fade to the edges. because it's a it's a substitute for a lack of confidence in themselves and the metrics of their own lives. And so I think that's a challenge. It's easier to see it in other people, but a challenge for us too of saying, where, where am I misusing a theological.
Cameron (40:01.636)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (40:09.143)
precept or or or concept or or something that really is there, but I'm I'm hyper exaggerating it to cover up for something else that the Lord wants to be working on in me. tangential thought, but yeah. Who knows?
Cameron (40:21.156)
It's worth searching your heart. yeah. De definitely worth searching our hearts on that. I think that can be an abdication of responsibility. Also, the more you press into Christ and his kingdom and and and just his life and his way, the less interesting.
Satan and demons will become to you. Now that doesn't mean yeah, I mean
Nathan (40:38.881)
Yeah. I think that's what I want to say. Yeah, you said that you said that in a better w one sentence than I did in fifteen paragraphs, thanks.
Cameron (40:46.978)
Well, but I mean it just you you'll you'll you'll get there. So I mean if you find in yourself I mean another question worth worth dealing with here is, you know, what what type of interests do you have? Is is this a a healthy caution or do you find in yourself a a deep kind of morbid fascination? And that's not cause for terrible alarm. That just th that's a that's a warning light because this should not be a source of deep fascination. Caution, yes. Vigilance, yes.
So we want to press more into we want to find God and his ways more interesting than evil.
Nathan (41:20.365)
Can I that would be a good place to conclude this, but I want to ask one more thought. so I read this is Lewis Barry Schaefer. So if you want some classic dispensationalist thinking on this, there you go. he wrote a book called Satan in the Satanic System, which is just a great coffee table piece to have in your house if you want to, you know, just make your guests really wonder what's going on. his he
Cameron (41:24.855)
no. I probably don't know. Yeah.
Cameron (41:33.176)
Yeah.
Cameron (41:40.548)
Ha ha
Nathan (41:49.414)
There's an interesting idea and then kind of core in the book. He's saying everybody thinks of Satan, what what does Satan's success look like? And and he would say, you've never seen Satan's success. So we think, Satan got a hold of the drug addict and destroyed his life. he tore him down. And he said, No, what was going on with Satan is that Satan wanted to be God.
He wanted the attention. He wanted the glory. He was created as a creature that was intended to preserve the glory of God, a covering, protective being who then wanted the glory for himself. And so he said when Satan tries to be God and we use him as God, he is such a bad God that the drunk dying in the ditch.
is the failure of Satan to be a good god to that man.
Cameron (42:47.628)
Hmm. That's profound.
Nathan (42:49.375)
It's it's not it's it's not the power of like, it's like Satan plucked him from the hand of God and got in there and messed him up. It's like, no, here was somebody who wanted to do things their own way, who in their own pride and on their own focus on themselves was was cast into a vision of their father who's a liar. And and it's that's a it's just a I don't know what to make of that exactly. I'm sure there's some truth to it, but that's a a thought to say is that.
Satan's success do you've never seen it.
Cameron (43:23.244)
Mm.
Nathan (43:24.385)
That it's it's all his inability. Cause look, Satan doesn't Satan and the demons don't run hell. Like it's not like this place they built where they're gonna be there and poke little people with and what what when when Jesus runs like the whole pig thing you referenced earlier, what what does what do those demons say to Jesus when they see him? Have you come to torture us before the appointed time? So they know what they're headed for. And eternal torture, revelation.
Cameron (43:34.489)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (43:45.986)
Before the time. Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan (43:54.07)
Satan cast down into eternal lake of fire. He's not enjoying it there. It's it's a broken, condemned power is broken, and and residual effects are it it's almost like I mean I I I think sometimes the work of Satan as the the military who knows that the war is coming to an end, but just keeps bombing anyway. it's it's the kid like I've watched kids build a Lego thing and then
Cameron (44:18.562)
Yeah, just out of
Nathan (44:23.413)
somebody comes and starts to take it down and they just smash their own creation. So the other person didn't get to it's it's a it's a sheer vindictive, I'm going to destroy if I can't be in charge of it, I'm going to destroy it all.
Cameron (44:34.337)
Just sheer bitterness and gall. Mm-hmm.
Nathan (44:36.683)
Yeah. If it can't be mine, I'm gonna break it. If I can't be in charge, I'm gonna destroy everybody's allegiance to the good.
Cameron (44:45.73)
Let me conclude with a beautiful picture from Milton's Paradise Lost. He is cast into hell. And, you know, I saw Satan fall like lightning, basically. Is this Milton describing it happening? When he when he ends in in hell, there's a hilariously ironic line where Satan says to basically the hellish netherworld, receive thy king.
Nathan (44:45.794)
Anyway.
Cameron (45:13.896)
And my old professor Donald Williams used to say that would be a little bit like somebody getting thrown into a prison cell in Alcatraz and then turning and saying, Alcatraz, receive thy king. Just to point out how unbelievably pathetic that is. And that's, I think, a worthy image to hold on to here that can give us some helpful perspective as we think about this.
Nathan (45:40.257)
That's that's a good good spot to end. I will also note that one Cameron, you and I have a friend Tom who refuses to capitalize Satan out of a general sense of disrespect. And he's like, I know that grammatically it should be capitalized, but whenever I submit a manuscript, I never capitalize Satan just as a general not general principle of never and that's that's Tom's little defiant. put it put him in his proper place.
Cameron (46:00.6)
General principle. I love it.
Nathan (46:10.209)
So I think there are times in which actually just having the conversation with people you respect, I think, is a healthy thing. And I appreciate you, Cameron, taking the time to do this. I apologize to the listener who submitted the question that we didn't even get to five percent of, but I think we'll wrap it up for there. And go and focus on the good and the beautiful. Keep your eyes on Christ, and the chaos will grow strangely dim in the light of it all. And he does promise to make all things new one day. So the order is coming.
You have to deal with some silliness in between. Don't get infatuated with the dark side. Look to what it is that Christ is asking of you this day. Draw near to Christ. God will draw near to you. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. The name of Jesus is a powerful thing. Use it appropriately and make some space in the name of Jesus and by the power of the Holy Spirit in your life for you to grow into what it is that God is calling you to do. You've been listening to Thinking Out Loud.
Podcast where we think out loud about current events and Christian hope.