“What Happens When the Bible Doesn’t Give a Clear Answer?” | Church Authority Explained

Nathan (00:00.742)

Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co-host, Nathan Rittenhouse.

Cameron (00:03.618)

and I'm your co-host, Cameron McAllister.

Nathan (00:05.628)

came and we received a great question from a listener, a very thoughtful one, and it's actually pretty pertinent to me personally as well. It's about church authority. And if you aren't thinking about this, you will be thinking about it more deeply by the end of this conversation. a couple of ways we can hit this, but starting on the heart of the question is, what do do if your church has a position or an opinion or teaching on something that isn't clearly listed in scripture? So there's not like a chapter and verse that you can point to.

That says this is how we do or don't do it But there are kind of felt principles at place of saying this is what we teach this what we believe But maybe there's a like for example, the the Bible doesn't say a whole lot on using AI or not to write a sermon Right. mean we wouldn't expect it to so there's there's a whole range of stuff that we're saying scripture isn't insufficient and give us an outline on how it is that God wants us to live but there are things just because of

Cameron (00:52.066)

Yep, absolutely.

Nathan (01:03.314)

chronology and the way in which time develops that we run into questions about how and what to do and what it means to be human in our proper relationship to God and to each other and what it means to be a church together that require new answers to new questions and what do do with church authority in the middle of all of that? So that will... Yeah, like I said, there's a lot of ways we can hit this because you can go on a very authoritarian side of this and say you have a very high church model that says

Here's what the elders, the bishops, the whatever your church structure is have decided.

That's the rule. Here are the scriptures they use to justify the position or the principle on that. And I think for most people, wherever you're at, say, okay, if I'm part of a church, I understand the structure of authority and all of that. I'm happy to live in that. But this question specifically is, what happens when your church doesn't have a statement about something, but there's sort of a felt sense of like, this is how things are done, or this is what needs to be taught. But the principle, it's an unwritten rule. That's a good way to put it. There's just kind of a felt.

Cameron (02:02.038)

An unwritten rule, yeah.

Nathan (02:07.279)

And so for me personally, I, I stepped into a church that was going through a kind of a rapid growth phase where our denomination didn't have a lot of clarity on a lot of questions. was sort of a felt sense of like, this is just the way we do things around here, but that's kind of hard to come into. And so I spent a lot of time asking, like, wait a second, is this what I'm understanding you saying? Is this what we believe? Is this what you're thinking? And trying to kind of label and write down and at least articulate this sort of a ethereal

Cameron (02:24.354)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (02:37.133)

sense of oddness that wasn't really connected to anything. It's not that it wasn't connected to anything. It was connected to a tight community who had all been enculturated in the same way and just knew. But that was very hard to come into from the outside. And so this question that it was fascinating to me because it's not just about church authority. It's about the need to re-articulate and define why and how is it that we do the things that we're currently doing.

Cameron (02:53.944)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (03:06.798)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (03:07.25)

You might not see much of this because the Presbyterians are a little more organized sometimes in some of these categories, but perhaps not.

Cameron (03:11.694)

well, we're very organized and there's tight church polity and we love our doctrine, but we're experiencing growth. We have the good problem of growth in the PCA, which is that's my little ecclesiological neck of the woods. That's right. That's my little puddle. We got, we recently got a fun little shout out from a demographer on the New York Times with Ross South that that was fun. Usually everything we hear about the PCA is bad. So it was nice to hear, you know, they've, they've got a robust.

Nathan (03:27.001)

It's his little puddle he swims in.

Cameron (03:41.017)

tradition, they got some thick practices that are holding them together. They're pretty cohesive. thanks very much. But we're experiencing the same kinds of growing pains, Nathan. I think before we get real specific, let me back up for a second. think you use the word to re-articulate and that's really important. So I think there is a, this is very broad. So just stick with me here. I'll spare you all the qualifications. I think there's a big dividing line happening between certain people who are rethinking.

their Christian heritage and that includes doctrine, their approach to scripture, that includes their approach to everything, their rethinking. And then there are those of us who are working to re-articulate. There's a massive difference between the two. Rethinking means many essentials are potentially up for grabs. You sometimes that goes by the name, the label of deconstructing these days, but it involves major rethinking and major changes.

Nathan (04:19.281)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (04:36.268)

The category that some of us are in where we're recognizing that people need to be taught how to be Christians, that that is a growing need. you can use the word catechesis is getting really, is a very trendy term again, but I'm glad it is. It's an important term. People need to be taught once again what it means to just live as a Christian.

Nathan (04:56.875)

yeah, but see, this is the challenge. think for twofold. One is we're coming out of a time, I think of a cheap, well, it's hard to say, you and I are anyway. think a lot of people are leaning into kind of a politicized demographic Christian veneer. That is a stamping my passport for eternal security sort of thing. We're talking about healthy churches that see the gospel as a way of life and invitation into a way of life. And.

that being massively complicated in a digital hyper-personalized age. so, well, can I, let me give the example. So this, this listener is saying, the church asked me to teach something very clearly about the usage of weed, of marijuana, and had some pretty absolute categories and opinions on that. And he said, and I was like, well, like, this is tricky. Like scripture doesn't have a thou shall not use marijuana line here.

He's like, I'm happy to look at the principles and see what the reasoning behind this is and be submissive that. But let's also think about then what does that mean for other pharmaceuticals? What if a doctor prescribes you an opioid? What if there's a whole host of other chemical ways in which we can alter our bodies that are legal, but probably just as damaging? How do we want to go about that? So that would be a principle. One question that I've been a young guy saying, hey, my girlfriend's coming to live with me, but we're not going to sleep together.

Cameron (06:13.784)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (06:25.265)

So, but there isn't a scripture that says she can't be baptized if we're not actually having sex, even though it just looks like we're living together. Um, you know, 30 years ago, the whole church, like everybody would have known, absolutely not here are the biblical principles that, that doesn't make any sense. But now we're living in a culture where those biblical principles aren't obvious, but the chapter in the verse, aren't there explicitly either. So it's, it's not that there isn't a theology behind some of this stuff. It's just that it hasn't been articulated for a generation or two.

Cameron (06:55.0)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (06:55.759)

So either it doesn't make sense and we need to scrap it or we need to say it in a fresh way and put some thought into defining these practices.

Cameron (07:03.086)

All right, let me be a Presbyterian. Let's bring some categories in order to this discussion. I'm just kidding. Yes. Well, so I think some of the major issues that are... So first of all, these are cultural matters. Cultural matters are often in gray area, just meaning scripture doesn't explicitly address them. You mentioned, so is there a scriptural prescription on AI? No. Is there one on marijuana usage? No. Or drinks laced with THC or whatever? No.

Nathan (07:07.345)

Please do.

Cameron (07:32.931)

But some of the big areas, some, kicking cats, nothing about kicking cats. Why not? I want, but see, when we're in a time of great cultural transition and upheaval, there will be some people who really, really want clarity, a clear set of rules and protocol. And so some people will gravitate toward churches with very, very clear rules and protocol. The danger there is always that you move into legalistic territory. And it doesn't have to, but some people,

Nathan (07:34.203)

Kicking cats doesn't say anything about it.

Cameron (08:01.932)

Look, let's just be honest, there are churches for temperaments. This is perhaps a different discussion, but there are some people who do need more boundaries and firm boundaries, and that's okay. But then there are other people who are more inquisitive and who are going to ask questions. TOL listeners are usually in that category. That's okay too. That's okay too. Yeah, that's okay too. There are, so there need to be room...

Nathan (08:06.427)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (08:19.921)

You have labeled yourselves if you've made it to this part of this conversation.

Cameron (08:30.722)

There needs to be room for those discussions. So I want to put some of, you've named some of the issues real quickly. Let's put them on the table real quickly again, Nathan, just so that the current cultural issues, because they change from time to time. Different eras produce different gray matter. So that's not brains, but cultural gray matter. But here, I think the big ones here would be sexual ethics. That's a huge one. And then also the use of different substances. So chemical modification is at the very forefront.

Nathan (08:47.313)

Hehehehehe

Nathan (08:56.933)

Yeah, chemical modification of the mind. Yeah. Psilocybin is going to be a whole big conversation in this coming soon to theaters near you.

Cameron (09:01.346)

Psilocybum, yes. Both you and I would say, when you actually press into that question, it isn't straightforward, actually. So for instance, I belong to a tradition where plenty of people drink alcohol. If you just look at it on paper or if you look at it chemically, alcohol is much stronger than some of these other substances that are now being legalized.

potentially more harmful. Just to, I'm not, we don't have to go down that road. I'm just pointing out how it can get, it's more complex than it initially seems and the work of rearticulation does require patience and it is work.

Nathan (09:43.706)

And it would be interesting, I think, so one whole unexplored category sometimes is the history of these questions as well, that sometimes we think is something new isn't. It'd be wild for you to go back and read the Presbyterians during Prohibition. What was going on during that time when you had kind of an absolutist Christian response to alcohol use and then what led to the transition away from that and what were the conversations at play there? In my mind, Cameron, it's...

Cameron (09:56.613)

absolutely.

Nathan (10:12.133)

There's a little bit of a give a man a fish or teach the man to fish thing at play here, which is to say, I come into any, say you start a new job and they give you a list of 57 dos and don'ts, at some level you will be able to complete the task assigned to you. But if you come into it they say, look, here are the principles, here's what we're trying to do. Here are some of the rules that we've outlined that we've found to be helpful based off of these principles.

That allows the employee to be more, allows more innovation. It allows creativity. It allows probably more safety because you understand the why and therefore you know how to do the how. And so this is, think the challenge of living well Christianly right now is to say, have I studied the basics enough to be able to, with a mature and rich theological vision,

Cameron (10:50.828)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (11:07.825)

look at new ideas, new problems and new questions and understand the principles that are at play within the community that I worship with in a way that I can contribute to lead in, create, innovate. I'm not saying this in a progressive sense like, we're just going to throw out scripture. It's like, no, what are the biblical principles that we can apply to these new questions around us? And sometimes I think the older generations go say, Hey, I'm going to come along with that idea and be like, Hey, here's a fun idea. And they'd be like,

You know what? We tried that and here's some things to think about. Cause there is a sense in which there's nothing new under the sun. And so that's why I'm saying it's a rearticulation. It's we don't have to start from scratch on any of this, but we are living there. was, I'll give you an example that there was a, a time in which there are some things that happened at our church that everybody just kind of, if you know, you know, and I wrote a policy and I brought it back to the church. And I said, is this how we're functioning? And they said, yes. And we made it church policy.

Cameron (11:47.076)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (12:03.951)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (12:06.777)

And like a whole handful of young adults came to me and said, thank you so much. This is so helpful for us. So it's the young people who just want to be able to say, do we or don't we believe this? How do we go about making decisions? Can we have some clarity on some of these issues? And even if you're from a high church structured, more ordered authority, the church still can't produce statements. I mean, the Pope can't crank out statements on everything fast enough.

Cameron (12:35.843)

to keep up with the times.

Nathan (12:36.057)

to keep up with this. there is a sense in which you do want mature Christians who are able to read scripture, understand it in the light of the culture and the tradition in which they're living, but more importantly, through their community and through the Holy Spirit, be able to make sense of complexity.

Cameron (12:53.079)

Yeah. mean, I think about, let's take the Catholic Church, for instance. I mean, in recent years, they have had to work. There's been massive theological energy and effort expended on the ordination of women and whether that ought to be taking place or not. That's one example of a highly contemporary issue that was not an issue in the past. It is a major one now because of our current society, you know, just the way our

Nathan (13:19.483)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (13:19.797)

modern world works or actually, I mean, the real pertinent place to point with regard to the Catholic Church obviously is Vatican II. I mean, that's the place where this ancient church addresses and tries to come to terms with what it means to be a modern Catholic. But we all have to do that in different ways. And so, I mean, that's part of the basic tension of being a Christian, living in the world.

but trying to not be of the world. I mean, again, I'm making all these broad observations. I think we should zero in on some of these specific issues. With regard to the one friend, Nathan, I do have to say there are very few possible worlds, perhaps there are no possible worlds, where two people who love each other can live together in the same space and not also sleep together. We should just say that honestly, but yeah.

Nathan (14:15.153)

Okay, this would be... But that probably is coming from millennia of wisdom of people who are trying to honor and serve the Lord and know their own experiences and how they're also wired to say, look, if we want to do this properly here... So I guess the question is, there a role of... Okay, we can list out biblical principles, chapters and verses of God's vision of human relationships and sexual ethics.

But where also is there value in the communal knowledge of a group? Because there are ways in which my church speaks into my life that aren't theological. Let's think about disciplining your children. Should you discipline your children biblically? Yes, you should. Is there a whole lot of details on how that's done? No. But if you know 40 families

that have raised children before, is that a resource for you for knowledge and living well? Yes, yes it is. those are, that would be another example of.

Cameron (15:20.204)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Nathan (15:26.705)

There's not a chapter and verse for it, but there are principles and the community has to interpret those.

Cameron (15:33.4)

Yeah, but it's also, this isn't easy work. It's easier if you have a clear cut answer for everything and you just want to come down hard on an issue, even if it is a cutting edge issue, or let's say something involving chemical modification of some kind, whether it's psilocybin or use of gummies, whatever it is. It feels there's a certain type of person who is going to feel unsafe and really worried.

if it's even a matter of discussion. There's a certain kind of church and usually the culture is largely, it's largely an, you know, it's kind of an unwritten rule like we said, where you just, no, no, no, we just need to give clear instructions on what to do. But, and so I don't really have an answer there, Nathan. There are some congregations where it takes more work to have those conversations and allow space for those conversations.

Nathan (16:27.415)

Well, it's, it's, let me give you, let me give you a grandpa written house quote here. he, he, he says a dictatorship is the most efficient form of leadership. So, but that's not what we're shooting for.

Cameron (16:28.759)

and set the proper parameters. You walk a kind of tightrope with that.

Cameron (16:41.571)

Well, yeah. Okay, so that's the... But another phrase that comes to... No, we're not shooting for that. think another... Yeah, so that's a very direct way of putting it. Another way is unity is not the... Uniformity is not the same as unity. Yeah.

Nathan (16:56.625)

Yeah. Okay. But here's what you're to have to do, Cameron. So, um, personal example, when I was 20, 22, 23, so finishing college, just getting married, uh, part of a large church had a, had a fantastic group of young adults, my age, it was a pile of fun. And we, in just our Bible studies and conversation came up with a list of like, I don't know, maybe five to seven big questions that we have of why does the church do things this way? Why are these practices? Where did this come from? And we wrote them down as a group.

and submitted them to the pastor. So you can imagine this, you're the pastor of a church, and here comes your entire young adult group with written questions of, Okay, but here's how I think it was handled well. As he looked at this and he said, these are fantastic questions. We should talk about this. And I bet if you have questions about it, the rest of the church does also. And he preached a multi-month sermon series on the young adults' questions.

Cameron (17:36.013)

love my job. This is why I went to seminary.

Cameron (17:47.183)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (17:56.89)

But see, he was willing to do the work there. And he wasn't threatened by your questions. He wasn't threatened, but he saw them as an opportunity. In my experience, Nathan, at least in theologically conservative spaces, that's rare. I don't know about you.

Nathan (18:00.112)

Yeah, he wasn't threatened by the question. He saw it as an opportunity.

Nathan (18:14.213)

So I would say this is the takeaway from Nathan on this portion of it. If you're in church leadership, you can actively seek out the questions that people have or wait for them. to see the, in multiple churches that I've visited in the last half a year, Cameron, after the event ends, the leadership goes home and I stay around talking to the young adults for another hour or two. And then I say to the leadership of the church, look, you can be frustrated that the young people have questions or you can say,

Cameron (18:29.604)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (18:41.093)

Wow, thank God that we have a whole group of really energetic young people who are willing to stay up till 10 o'clock at night thinking about the future of the church and how to live out their faith well. So I think this is a, an interesting, tenuous time for churches to capture the energy and to do the homework of explaining because there is, there's a phenomenal energy and interest between, among young adults and young families who really want to invest their lives well and do something with it.

Cameron (18:49.284)

Yeah.

Nathan (19:10.277)

but also want to do that in the context of none of this is a threat to authority from my perspective. All of them are helpful questions. None of it is a challenge. This is not saying we think there's something theologically wrong with our church. We don't think there's anything shady going on behind the scenes. We just really want to be able to throw our lives into this in a way that makes sense to us and enables us to make sense of it to the people who don't go to church with us. Because I think in a lot of churches,

Cameron (19:19.343)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (19:39.59)

The older generation doesn't feel the need to explain themselves to their friend group because their friend group is their church group. But in this more recent generation, all of us are out and about running and bumping in and rubbing shoulders with people who don't go to church with us, who don't see the world in the same way we do and who have questions. And we're not sure how our church would answer the question, much less how we would articulate it to somebody who doesn't believe. again, clarity is great.

Cameron (19:46.041)

Right.

Cameron (20:01.112)

Yeah.

Cameron (20:04.719)

Well, two dangers you just named there. One is just insularity. We don't get out enough. If you're at a certain age and you're kind of... The danger is to get stuck in your ways and...

Nathan (20:14.993)

But it's worse than a digital time, Cameron. I think people say, oh, we're not insular, we're global. All right, nope, you're insular.

Cameron (20:20.003)

You're painted into your digital corner by an algorithm. Yeah. You still need to get out more. Getting online is not getting out. And in fact, the line I'm taking these days is we think we're getting informed, but in fact, we're just being distracted. So the online thing is not the answer. When we're online, we think we're being informed, but we're just being distracted. And I know that from experience. I'm not pointing a finger at anyone but myself.

Nathan (20:35.611)

That's a good line. Say it again.

Cameron (20:47.395)

But also, mean, insularity is a real problem there, but then also there's laziness here. And I say that again, looking at myself, seeing this tendency in myself, rearticulation is work. But here's the problem, here's another sound bite for you. If we don't rearticulate, people are gonna rethink. That is what is happening.

Nathan (21:03.857)

Or YouTube is going to answer it for you.

Cameron (21:06.903)

Yeah, but they're going to actively, if they, this is always the perennial habit of Christians down the ages, always, different eras bring different challenges. Think about when the early church was having to, the massive transition away from people who were direct witnesses to the resurrection. There was a degree of church unity before because there was that direct line of connection to Jesus. Once we move away from that,

Nathan (21:25.531)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (21:34.145)

all sorts of new difficulties, novel difficulties arise and they have to be addressed and they require tons of work. Also, well, think about the councils trying to hammer out what we were so grateful for Trinitarian theology. was far from straightforward, required nothing. Yeah. Yeah.

Nathan (21:41.947)

OK.

Nathan (21:50.725)

Yo, let's go farther back. Let's go farther back into the New Testament itself. What did Jesus teach about circumcision?

Cameron (21:56.74)

Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah.

Nathan (21:57.842)

Turns out he didn't. did Jesus teach about food sacrifice to idols? Turns out he didn't. What did Jesus talk about a whole number of sexual ethics? Turns out he didn't directly. But the work of the New Testament Church was very much writing a lot about circumcision, food sacrifice to idols, a whole plethora of pagan sexual practices and whatnot that had to be addressed and sorted out. They couldn't say,

Cameron (22:06.403)

Yep, yep, yep.

Cameron (22:21.945)

pagan practices that had to be addressed.

Nathan (22:27.823)

Now on the sexual ethics, think it is much easier because Jesus did give a here's God's created intent. This is the plan. Everything else is a deviation from it. But he also in a certain way, worship the Lord your God and serve him only. He laid that out. Okay. So can we derive from that? This is a pagan practice. We're not going to have any part in it. Can we have salvation by grace through faith? Jesus doesn't really talk about grace directly, but it's, it's there. It's a derivative principle of the things that Jesus taught. the church is you remember when the

Cameron (22:52.131)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (22:57.905)

the council and acts and they're like, hey, here, what should we tell the Gentiles? And they said, okay, don't eat a strangled animals, sexual immorality. Yeah. And that sort of thing. they, wasn't of the 613 old Testament laws, they set aside a lot, but they still did have some core principles to say, if we want to worship well and reject false worship around us and distinguish ourselves as a people who are fully committed to God, here's some practices that we won't participate in.

Cameron (23:00.707)

Yep. Yep.

Cameron (23:05.955)

Yep. Blood. Yep.

Cameron (23:12.835)

Yeah. Yep.

Cameron (23:26.979)

Right. And notice also those legalistic battles were there too. Paul even calling out Peter because of issues with the circumcision party. That continued. mean, that's the nothing new under the sun thing.

Nathan (23:40.149)

but so good point except after that Paul then does circumcise Timothy in order not to be a stumbling block.

Cameron (23:50.435)

Yes, because Timothy's, his mother is Greek or is it his dad is Greek? I'm forgetting.

Nathan (23:54.502)

I've always taught that passage of saying, what body part would you be willing to lose in order to be a more effective minister of the gospel? know, that's a step one to evangelism surgery. all that.

Cameron (23:59.824)

Yeah.

Cameron (24:07.727)

There's also, mean, Paul does also say, I have become all things to all men so that you can, and you can help, so that by all means I might reach some. Yeah, yeah.

Nathan (24:14.743)

yes. But, but, but, but, here's how this gets, this, this, this is germane to this conversation because a lot of times I have heard people read that I can do anything I want because so, so I watch porn so I can reach out to the porn addicts better. No, that's not what he's saying there. So it's, it's more in the line of, as a Christian, am I free to eat pork? Yes, I am. If I invite somebody over to my house of another religious tradition who doesn't, and that's offensive to them.

Cameron (24:26.735)

no no no, that's not what he's... yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Cameron (24:38.638)

Right.

Nathan (24:45.742)

to become all things to all people says that I set aside my right to eating pork for that evening in order not to be.

Cameron (24:47.438)

Yes.

Cameron (24:50.765)

Yeah. So don't eat bacon in front of your devout Muslim friend. If that's gonna... I mean, yeah, it's just disrespectful.

Nathan (24:55.567)

Yeah, Christian freedom includes the ability to set aside things that I have a right to for the sake of the other, which is exactly what the incarnation was.

Cameron (25:06.785)

So he's talking about servant-heartedness. once again, re-articulation is what's happening with so much of this. Every time you have a gap of, I don't know, let's say 40, 50 years, and then younger people in a new cultural moment will demand a re-articulation of Christian ways of life, and it's work. Because you are breaking it down to make it persuasive to a new group of people.

One of the issues here that comes up over and over again when I talk to pastors as well, Nathan, you just mentioned it, is what's euphemistically referred to as cohabitation, i.e. living together before you're married, which is just assumed to be that's just, I mean, we're adults. This is the 21st century. So, rearticulation is needed there.

Nathan (25:51.142)

Yeah. Well, but, but see, here's the other challenging thing on a lot of this is that there also are just some really good statistical, cultural, secular, social science arguments against a lot of this stuff too. Like some of these things are categories that, that, that I would, I would not, even if I wasn't a Christian, I'd be like, okay, that is the outcomes on this choice now are not good long-term. so I'm not saying the stuff doesn't make sense. Can we, so here's what we're saying so far.

Cameron (26:03.033)

Yeah, there's corroboration.

Nathan (26:20.131)

If you're in part of a leadership of a church, you need to be explaining a whole lot more. Please, for the sake of your younger members and in doing so, you'll find new life and fresh energy in your congregation. If you're a young person in the church, I think you absolutely are within your rights of saying, Hey, in a humble sense of, would like to be able to understand and explain this better. Would you please help me see this? I want to, I want to do this well, but I don't want just the practice. want to understand the principle as well.

Cameron (26:25.059)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (26:49.583)

Absolutely.

Nathan (26:49.741)

And in my ecclesiology, that's life-giving. I recognize that might not be true for everybody. You might just want to show up and out, sit down, do exactly what you're told. Anyway, you probably don't listen to thinking out loud. the third part of this Cameron that we need to bring into here is where is there room for actual variation in personal conviction?

and-

Cameron (27:12.161)

not this is the unity not uniformity piece a little bit yeah

Nathan (27:14.481)

Yes, so I've grown up in a context of people who have drawn very strict lines for themselves as Christians, but have held those lines very open-handed as they apply to other people. So let me give you an example. Somebody asked my grandpa one time, is it a sin to smoke a cigarette? And he said, for me, it absolutely is. He's like, it's something that I always want to do as a young person because I thought it would be cool. I have now a

vision of how God wants me to steward my body. I know scientifically what this is. I have a conviction that this would be dishonoring the gift of life that God has given me if I participate in this. Now, there is no specific biblical passage that you could point to, other than abroad your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, that you could point to and say, absolutely do or don't do this. So, are you going to make it a church membership thing? No. A baptism thing? No. A salvation issue? No. Can you say,

Cameron (27:52.783)

Mm hmm. Yeah.

Nathan (28:11.397)

here's where I've landed in life and what I think leads to the most God honoring, physically, healthily, mature way of stewarding what God has given me. And that's where I'm at right now. And therefore it would be a sin for me, but I'm not laying that down as a law for everybody else. That's a little bit of the background that I'm coming from in response to some of these questions, I think.

Cameron (28:18.115)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (28:28.719)

That's good.

Cameron (28:32.505)

front and center there is the matter of conscience. So if you can't do something with a clear conscience, that's a very clear deciding factor for that. That's a very helpful way to operate there. mean, I want to speak to the smoking thing too, because that affects me personally. just not that this is confession time, but I used to be a smoker. I belong to a theological tradition that is a little bit more lax with it. They prefer pipes and cigars, not cigarettes. I was full correct.

Nathan (28:57.731)

not inhaling more chemicals than one at a time.

Cameron (29:00.399)

But I was full bore. was actually, I was a cow bore, killer, cigarettes. And for me, so what I was settled on even as I was doing it was this is clearly unwise. But once I had children, it became very clear to me that I couldn't do it with a clear conscience anymore because the deleterious effects to your health are so real and obvious, printed on the very pack themselves. And also this had, I had a grandfather who died because of

complications because of being lifelong smoker. So, but that's my same posture, Nathan. When I see somebody else doing that, my soul is not scandalized and I don't want to, you know, invade against them or anything like that. But I know that for me personally, this is something that's off the table. And I feel that very clearly.

Nathan (29:45.146)

Okay, so let's say then that you have a, let's jump back to marijuana, psilocybin, pharmaceuticals, various. So this is where this gets interesting of is it permissible to form a church of people who have the same secondary convictions? So to say, all right, let's use an extreme example of.

Cameron (29:52.195)

Yep, yep, bring them in.

Nathan (30:14.999)

get Amish in horses and buggies or something like that. Something so outlandish that you can draw the line someplace else is to say.

Cameron (30:20.975)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (30:26.289)

Here's the, so I think there is room for forming communities that have specific and individual nuances and peculiarities to the way in which they practice their faith. And that can be a healthy time and healthy place for people to live and to grow and to say, essentially when you join a church, you're saying, the Lord is calling and shaping and forming me in a certain way. And I want to grow with people who are being called and shaped and formed in the same way.

Cameron (30:42.18)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (30:55.311)

Hmm.

Nathan (30:55.781)

That there's a, there's a common commonality of the trajectory. And this is why we Cameron are we're little sea Catholics. You as a Presbyterian and me as a free range mountain brethren, have, have, have a. Like when I drive past a church on my way to church on a Sunday morning, I don't think what a bunch of heretics and losers they're going to hell. I, I, I, well, that's cause you're Presbyterian, but the,

Cameron (31:07.842)

Yep.

Cameron (31:18.553)

Well, I do. I'm just joking. That's right.

Nathan (31:25.044)

The sense of.

Nathan (31:29.265)

I recognize that my church is not all things to all people. I think there are people who are better suited for the local Presbyterian, Methodist, and Baptist churches than what it is specifically that I'm trying to do. at our church, when somebody comes and visits for the first time, we say, hey, you might want to check out these other churches too. We want you to find the place where you're going to be able to worship the best. And if it was with us, fantastic. We'd love to have you, but we're not trying to overly...

Cameron (31:39.115)

Mm. Yep.

Cameron (31:46.745)

Yeah.

Cameron (31:50.841)

That requires real humility though.

Nathan (31:58.844)

pigeon hole. yeah, requires some, so the way this pertains is I'm trying to get back to a way in which I can say that there can be diversity among churches and that can be fine.

Cameron (32:11.768)

Amen.

can. And as we grow more post-Christian as a culture, that will, I think, become more of a necessity. I mean, I saw that on the ground in Europe, where I spent the first 14 years of my life and that's the place where my dad did 22 years of ministry, my mom and dad as missionaries. There, various traditions banded together as missionaries because

the were so small, was such a small group of us that we didn't have the luxury of being divided over our little theological differences. I'm not saying those differences don't matter.

Nathan (32:44.847)

Thank you.

Nathan (32:50.213)

I think campus ministries are another place you see this happen.

Cameron (32:53.761)

Absolutely. Although some territorial tendencies can come out sometimes, those, yes, yes, but the hope is that that subsides. But what you're saying, Nathan, is so important. It's not easy, and it's really good. There's no way to say it without feeling the tension. But a living tradition, Nathan, remains in an active conversation. There are certain items that are non-negotiables.

Nathan (32:58.807)

It's Turf Wars.

Cameron (33:23.789)

We call them orthodoxies, Christians. We do have our non-negotiables. They are there. There are firm boundaries, but it is a living conversation. If you try to kill the conversation, you're going to end up with dead tradition. Dead tradition is bad. It is indeed dead, and it doesn't grow, doesn't lead to more life. The conversation must continue, but you've got to be willing to have the conversation. So I know it's work, and I know we're weary, but we've got to do it.

Nathan (33:24.561)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (33:45.648)

Yeah. So here's, some extent, that is what thinking out loud is trying to do is to continue to articulate the deep principles in the face of modern questions and curiosities. I think if, so I just want to summarize what we've actually said that might be helpful. One is, Hey, church leadership, you can't over explain things. And if, and if you have, if you have young people in your church who don't just know,

Cameron (33:53.367)

Yeah, it is.

Nathan (34:15.569)

That's fantastic. That's a missional opportunity. That's where your future leadership is coming from. People who are, uh, fascinated in figuring out more. So do that and you'll probably personally grow in that as well. That's, that's fantastic. If you're a young person in the church, seek these things out. This is again, you don't want to come in guns blazing as a threat to authority. All the old people are stupid and only I know. And. Nah, pump the brakes there a little bit on that, but find the people who can help articulate the, or re-articulate the principles across that.

Let's make sure that scripture might actually have something to say about the question that you have. It might not be quite as much a matter of consciousness. Everybody's like, that's legalism. I would say that I've not been to a lot of churches recently that I would say are in danger of legalism, Cameron. I would say hyper grace is more of a threat to American Christianity than legalism is. So obedience is not legalism. Love has a direction and boundaries to it. We know that from God.

growing in the fullness of what his grace is and what it teaches us is a big part of that. And then also to be, draw your own personal lines of saying, where am I being convicted on something? And then to say, and what's the degree of flexibility and latitude that I want to have within my worshiping community of people who are, are we really all rowing in the same boat in the same direction together at the same pace? And that's, I think where we find our richest community. So.

I'm not sure that we answered anything other than to say asking the question, asking questions of authority is not illegitimate. Jesus welcomed it and used them all as an opportunity for spiritual growth for everybody involved. And so we have to maintain a dynamic element to our faith because gone is the time in which you can thought about that once and check yes and off I go for the rest of life. No, we live in contested cross pressures.

borrowed Charles Taylor's phrase, that we're in a time of believing while doubting that everything is contested. so be praying for the young people around you, find ways in which you can be helpful in articulating some of these things. We did actually do an episode on marijuana specifically a few months back, I think, I was just saying, even based outside of the theological realm, there might be enough scientific evidence around to give us some pause. And then that brings in another question.

Cameron (36:31.161)

Yeah.

Nathan (36:41.647)

What degree do social sciences and the hard sciences say in our decision making as people of faith? But for me, it comes down to this, that the church that you go to is essentially a style of biblical interpretation. And so, can your church communicate to you what their style of biblical interpretation is? Is an important element for me to make sense of the way in which I worship with the people around me.

Cameron (37:06.017)

Mm, it's good.

Nathan (37:10.213)

Because if I can understand the style of biblical interpretation, then I can understand how they're using scripture, and then I can understand how I can not only belong, but also contribute to the work that's being done.

Cameron (37:20.951)

You've been listening to Thinking Out Loud, a podcast where we think out loud about current events and Christian hope. And if you like this, then like it as in like, share and subscribe, tell others about it, shout it from the rooftops. We won't stop you. And if you want to support us financially, you can do that by going to www.toltogether.com.

Nathan (37:40.859)

Thanks so much, friends.