What to Say to Someone Deconstructing Their Faith
Nathan (00:01)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co-host, Nathan Rittenhouse.
Cameron (00:04)
and I'm your co-host, Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:06)
Cameron, I was just recently answering a question that somebody sent us from like a year ago. So sorry. I am getting there. ⁓ No, it was a good question and I'd correspond with this person some other ways, but the question was, what do do when somebody starts to slowly lose a belief? And I think this question as I fleshed out will resonate. So let's take somebody who's fully part of a church. They're on board with the essentials of the faith.
Cameron (00:13)
you
Nathan (00:36)
And then just over time, they start to kind of step back or step away from, or realize, yeah, I don't know that I believe that's true anymore. And this person was asking, how do we, how do we draw the lines of distinction on what are the things that it's okay not to believe and somebody still be considered a Christian? I think maybe you see this in broader conversations of, you know, are, are Mormons Christian or, you know, at what point do we not
Cameron (00:56)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (01:04)
consider ourselves or somebody else to be a crit like as that fade happens or the real slow realization ⁓ I think this will be familiar to most people say something about how you see this workout
Cameron (01:18)
Yeah, well, I mean, think we're talking about three distinct issues here. One involves the nature of belief itself and unbelief and how that happens. Another one is what actually makes a Christian. So we're dealing with definitions there as well. And then three, know, how do we respond helpfully to this? So why don't we, let's start with three for just a second.
Nathan (01:24)
Mm-hmm, yep.
That's a really helpful
three. Great metric there. Let's see if we can work with it.
Cameron (01:43)
Triune, yes. Always a good sign. But I would say the first thing I want to say, and this phrase entered into my head as you were talking, is don't panic. I'm saying that because when this question is brought to me frequently, it's often in pretty urgent terms. And people, we do have a tendency to panic. think, okay, how do we immediately shore up their belief? How do we fix this right away?
Nathan (01:46)
you
Cameron (02:12)
Well, there's probably not going to be a quick fix on this one or some easy slam dunk answer. So, and also interestingly enough, the more alarmed you are with the person, the more that tends to, not always, but it tends to work against you. I mean, they'll clearly get the impression that you care deeply, but they'll also likely get the impression that you're not as confident. See, there's another issue here, Nathan, that I think when people...
Nathan (02:29)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (02:41)
when we encounter unbelief in somebody, it sometimes tends to rattle us a little bit. Maybe that's not what we talk about as much, but yeah, think sometimes when we encounter unbelief, it unsettles us and we start to, we may feel some seeds of doubt in our own lives as well. Yes, and I have had this conversation, Nathan, with people who, I'm not sure,
Nathan (02:48)
Yeah, that's wise. Yeah, I think that's real.
Well, particularly if it's somebody we look up to or we've appreciated.
Cameron (03:11)
I would bet that you have as well. I've had this conversation with some people to whom I have looked up. Fortunately, it hasn't been somebody who's totally close. Somebody asked me once, if somebody's faith buckled, who's the person who if they're faith buckled, it would rattle you the most. And my instant response was, my dad. My dad has been a spiritual. He's not only been a dad to me, he's been a friend, a confidant, and a spiritual mentor.
So if he abdicated the faith, man, that would shake me. Now, would it tear me away from Jesus? I don't think so, but it would leave me quite, it would be a blow.
Nathan (03:56)
It'd be a blow. Yeah, you'd limp. You'd
limp on the other side of that injury.
Cameron (04:01)
definitely limp on the other side of that entry. So I would say you want to start with behind the scenes. You can be in prayer, be steeped in the scriptures. We'll come to this in a second. A problem with creeping unbelief has to do often with people moving further and further away from those things that will anchor them. Two of the biggest ones being scripture and prayer. So yeah, let me pause there.
Nathan (04:27)
But yeah.
So, so I think that's a helpful direction. Let's make the question more difficult before we move forward, which is to say, because I think this is the heart of the question is like, let's say that we'll use your dad's example because he's a friend and a mentor and all the things. I mean, not physical father to me, but you know, spiritually we brought him. So let's say that, let's say that your dad comes to us. Sorry, Stuart, you're getting thrown under the bus here and says, guys, I've been thinking about it. And,
Cameron (04:48)
I brought them in, so here we go.
Nathan (04:59)
I don't think the Old Testament is important anymore. Still following Jesus, I still fully understand, I ⁓ don't see any, I think the God of the Old Testament is basically a jerk and has nothing to do with the gospel.
That's kind of different than somebody like, I'm done with Christian community and I'm deconstructing and I'm out of, like, or I mean, that maybe is, I was just picking an issue of from virgin birth to physical resurrection. Like we could throw in a whole list of doctrinal. So what happens if somebody just like, it's just like one, where one day they're like, you know, I don't really know that this is an important or necessary part of the way in which I view the world.
Cameron (05:26)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Yeah. Okay. Let's go to these. Let's answer the... I think there's one question in here or one issue that I brought up that it's the easiest to settle, but then we'll have to work our way around it. And that concerns what counts as Christian and not. That one's actually pretty straightforward. And this isn't... I think in our modern world, people are going to hear this as exclusive and dogmatic, but no, sometimes things aren't necessarily exclusive. They're just in order to...
Nathan (05:52)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (06:08)
fit the parameters of a particular definition, you have to have some exclusivity baked in. It's not narrow. It's just if we're talking about somebody who doesn't, for instance, affirm the Trinity, we're not saying that a person has to affirm the Trinity. They don't have to, but if they don't, they don't fit the definition of a Christian. there are certain... I think I want to hear you say more about this, Nathan, because you have...
have good theological training here too, are, theologians do have a helpful way of, systematic theology has a helpful way of looking at this. are issues that are adiaphora, that is secondary, not of first importance. People have different views on the Lord's Supper, baptism, that sort of thing. You and I have some differences there. We both would be happy worshiping together. But then there are other matters of orthodoxy and these are non-negotiables.
Nathan (07:03)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (07:05)
And so, if you deny any of these non-negotiables of the church, and I think we ought to not assume that everybody knows what those non-negotiables are, so I think in a second we need to name them, Nathan, but there are non-negotiable items. it's not like you're being punished for not affirming these. It just means that if you can't affirm these, then you are not by definition a Christian because a Christian is a person who affirms these items.
Nathan (07:30)
You
Yeah,
and is that a little bit of an American feature where we get to define what Christian what it like I decide what a Christian is and then decide if I am one ⁓ That's not really
Cameron (07:42)
That is a particular
feature of what I would call consumer Christianity. Let's just say a few words about that real quickly because it colors our thinking, whether we realize it or not. I think a very helpful book on the subject was Tara Isabella Burton's Strange Rites, R-I-T-E-S. Even if you don't read the book itself, just read the one chapter in there called Who Are the Remixed?
So she calls people these days the religiously remixed. But basically she just means exactly what you just said, Nathan. People who their consumer habits dictate their spiritual habits as well. So they just feel free to mix and match and they feel free to have whatever spirituality they adopt. They want to have it on their own terms and they see it more as an accessory than they do as an actual metaphysical outlook or you know,
Nathan (08:37)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (08:40)
reflection of the nature of reality, that kind of thing. So just to note that that colors a lot of our thinking without us realizing it.
Nathan (08:47)
I was talking to a look to back up to the structural thing here. I was talking to a young guy at church who's pretty into cars and he was asking a question about. It doesn't really matter, but I said to him, I said, imagine that I came to you and said, Hey, did you know you don't have to put motor oil in your car? It's totally unnecessary. Like I, I drained all the oil out of my car and ran it down the road at a hundred miles an hour for 30 seconds. And it was fine. Like I've used this analogy before. think I'm a bygaz and he, and he's like, ah,
Like that was, that worked in a very short term, very specific, like I can't recommend that. There are things like that theologically true, where if somebody comes to you and says, I've come to the belief that the rear left tire of my car is not important. You're gonna, well, which is different than having a flat tire. A flat tire is a temporary phase of recognizing there's a problem, there's something that needs to be fixed.
Cameron (09:21)
You
Nathan (09:45)
So I would correlate that to a temporary moment of doubt. There was a, in some circles, a college professor, president who was well known, who much early in life had written correspondence with my grandfather about his faith. And he had said, he was living in a different country and he said, you know, I'm going through a phase of profound doubt. And my grandfather had written back to him and he said, well, the wonderful thing to hear is that you recognize it's a phase. This isn't a, this isn't a permanent.
Cameron (10:11)
Mm-hmm. Sure.
Nathan (10:14)
So that's the not panicking response. ⁓ So there are people who go through a period of thinking, you've said this is called growing up, it's not deconstructing, it's growing up, of wrestling with an idea, do I really believe in the physical resurrection? Do I really believe in the sufficiency of scripture? Everybody has to go through those at some point. Now, what I have found is that if somebody does,
at a later point in life decide to reject one of these elements, usually it starts off of like, I don't believe this one thing anymore. Probably is a gateway to all the wheels coming off the vehicle. Because you remember we had a guy come in one time who was a total Unitarian, didn't believe in the Trinity. And then as soon as we started asking him questions about the atonement, he had nothing. the whole, like the whole, like there are...
Cameron (10:53)
Let's, yeah.
Nathan (11:08)
There are building blocks here where like if you pull out this piece of it, the rest of the story doesn't make any sense. So I think those would be the elements of concern here where we say, no, that actually is a fundamental and foundational component. Like you can't take that out and still have a functioning vehicle here.
Cameron (11:08)
Mm-hmm.
Well, a few pieces of meta commentary here, and then I want us to lay out what those non-negotiables are just for a second, just for the sake of our listeners, because I'm finding, Nathan, that I can no longer make the assumption that people have the essentials of Christianity in their minds and hearts, because we've become much more biblically illiterate as a society and a culture. And so, I want to be sensitive to that and respectful. And so, we'll lay some of those out, but just as a kind of meta commentary.
Nathan (11:42)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (11:56)
and a word of encouragement. Again, a very American habit of mind is that you have to figure everything out for yourself. I need to look into all these matters. Do your own research. That's the phrase. Here's the thing. ⁓ This is not tantamount to me saying, your mind at the door of a church. I'll explain why in just a second. You don't have to do that with Christianity. Resting on authority is a normal habit.
Nathan (12:05)
Do your own research.
Cameron (12:24)
of all of us. We do it all the time. We rest on the authority of the scientific establishment and community, for instance. We rest on the authority of, you know, the people who operate.
Nathan (12:34)
⁓ but ⁓ see,
but see, this is what's falling apart everywhere right now, Cameron.
Cameron (12:38)
Everywhere. Yeah. yeah. This is at the heart of institutional breakdown, but I'm still saying functionally to get through life. We rest on the authority of the people who, know, the airlines, car mechanics and all of that. I'm not saying, you know, obviously conspicuous examples of mistakes happening can rattle us a little bit, but the norm is still, we have to do some, we have to have some cognitive rest. My point here is that we don't figure everything out for ourselves.
Nathan (12:40)
All right, so.
Cameron (13:07)
And when we try to figure everything out for ourselves, it tends to lead to a whole lot of unnecessary confusion. So I'm not saying don't look into matters of theology and doctrine, but I am saying there is a rich and illustrious tradition that includes the church fathers and theological councils where creeds were established.
where people thought through all of this stuff and wrestled with it more strenuously than most of us ever will. so in the crucible of that immense struggle to wrap, to try to find language, for instance, for the incarnation that Jesus is fully God and fully man, in the crucible of that struggle was forged
this basically the essentials of Christianity. mean, most of them, Nathan, we'll name some of them. The Trinity is one of the big ones. The fact that Jesus is the Son of God, the fact that Jesus is both fully God, fully man, the Holy Spirit, the Virgin birth, basically pull up the Apostles' Creed. That is a wonderful document, or it's not really, it's a wonderful Creed that includes the essential
confessions of the faith. mean, you could look at that and say, you can affirm that creed, you're definitionally Christian. mean, Luther used, think, as his shorter catechism, he had three things. He had the Apostles' Creed and the other two are scripture. The other two are the Ten Commandments and then the Lord's Prayer. Those three. mean, Luther cared so much about, you know, Luther was very grumpy, yes, and he didn't like the Pope very much, and that's an understatement. But...
we forget often that he had a huge heart for just common, everyday, uneducated people, peasants and people who were illiterate, couldn't read. And so, he was really big on basic teaching tools for them so that they could have what they needed, the essentials. And he said, yeah, if you want the essentials, 10 Commandments, Lord's Prayer, Apostles Creed, you're good. That'll stand you in good stead.
Nathan (15:28)
Yeah,
I come from a theological background that says, ⁓ isn't big on creeds, but they would say that the problem with having the New Testament as your only creed is it's just so much to memorize. you know, but the, but, but even in doing so didn't really recognize that there was a communal catechesis in the way in which you use the New Testament. So it wasn't just, yeah, it's, that gets complex, but let me go back to the, to the, the actual
question. And let me share with you what I shared, Cameron, because I think this speaks to the meta level of it. And then you helped me decide whether or not I gave good advice. So here's what I said. And this might be helpful for anybody who's listening, who's kind of walking with somebody through a period of trying to figure out what's going on in their religious belief. Ask yourself this question. How was Abraham saved?
Cameron (16:01)
Hmm.
Nathan (16:23)
And the correct answer, we get this out of Romans and other places, is that Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. So Abraham was saved by faith, which is exactly the same way that a modern, any Christian is saved, is by faith. What did Abraham believe? Abraham believed that God could fulfill his promises. Not that God could fulfill Abraham's promises, but that God could fulfill God's promises. Abraham had
very little knowledge and understanding of the mechanism by which God would fulfill his promises. And in fact, there was confusion in Abraham's life. Remember the whole thing with Hagar and Ishmael and like, so he tried to take matters in his hands, but ultimately at the end of the day, the will of God happened as God had promised and Abraham didn't know exactly how that was all going to work out. He believed that God would fulfill his promise and that faith was credited to him as righteousness.
Cameron (17:04)
He tried to take matters into his own hands a few times.
Nathan (17:22)
On the other side of the life of Jesus, we live in the same paradigm where our salvation comes from our confidence that God will fulfill his promises. But through the birth, life, teaching, death, resurrection of Jesus, we know a whole lot more about, mechanism is a crude word, but the mechanics of how it is that God fulfilled that promise.
but we still ultimately are saved by our faith that God will be able to fulfill the things that God has promised. That's why you can be five years old and have a saving faith, because you just believe that God can and he does. So that's low knowledge, super high trust. You can also write six books on the atonement, which would be more knowledge, but still super high trust needed for salvation. So the salvific element,
has from the beginning been the intent of communion with God in the posture of us trusting Him to fulfill the things that He has promised. And that faithfulness, or that trust in Him on our part, in His faithfulness to fulfill His covenant has been made known to us in a conferred upon righteousness that comes, God is the prime mover here in this. So that's the core.
That makes it pretty simple. So on one hand, you're going say, wow, Nathan, you're making that sound like a very broad, very big tent. Yeah, I am the flip side of that is though. So here's where I think. So this is where this gets helpful. And the discerning part of it is if I start to doubt core components of the revealed mechanism by which God has fulfilled his promise, then I have a problem. So if I say,
So I did big tent, right? Of saying, I believe that God will fulfill his promises. And then we have in scripture and in the life of Jesus, God's declaration of the way it's, you know, get this new type of like the prophets of old angels long to look into the things that you now know. So there's a privileged position on the other side of the life of Christ that we have. But in that revelation of God saying, and here is how I have fulfilled and I'm working on fulfilling
Cameron (19:17)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's the line I always think of.
Nathan (19:43)
the promise that I made, I start to say, like, yeah, God, I don't think that actually is how that happened. Well, can I still say that I'm confident in God? So, OK, I guarantee you, Cameron, put any 15 Christians in a room and ask six questions and we'll all be totally confused on the fine metrics of exactly how the atonement works. I'm comfortable with there being some
variation and maybe in some complementary visions and views of interpretation there at the end of the day we believe christ died for our sins according to the scripture was buried according and was raised you know and so that that for me is not a deal breaker if i start to say ⁓ i don't believe jesus was divine that seems to be a pretty clearly taught or i don't believe in a physical resurrection no that pretty much seems like
I'm struggling to articulate here, but do see how I'm using as a litmus test? I believe? Do I have confidence in God's revelation about His plan? And if I don't have confidence in God's revelation about His plan, can I say that I have confidence in His ability to fulfill His promises? So that would be a dividing line for me on the topics.
Cameron (20:44)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
No, I think what you're saying is wise.
Well, belief sits on a spectrum when it comes to, I'm talking about belief in God. It sits on a spectrum. So incidentally, I gave my life to Jesus when I was five. Was I familiar with the Apostles' Creed when I was five or the Ten Commandments? A little bit of familiarity with the Ten Commandments. Did I know the Lord's Prayer? No. Did I know anything about the doctrine of the Trinity? No. Was I a Christian? Yes.
Nathan (21:23)
Your opinion
on reduplicative predication was in development.
Cameron (21:26)
Right. Yes. The hypostatic union, I
was totally there. But you also, you're growing as a Christian, ideally speaking. We have various ways of talking about this. There's the journey of sanctification, which is distinct from justification. We don't have to go there right now. But there is the conferred righteousness that you have as a believer, and that's a wonderful thing. But then there's the growing
personally and moral character that is the journey of sanctification. But also you are being present tense according to Paul. If you're a Christian transformed by the renewal of your mind. And so that means as you're growing, you're also growing in your knowledge of God. Now knowledge, we need to use it in much more holistic biblical fashion. Knowledge doesn't just mean what you know in your head. It means what you're actually, it means the Hebrew conception of knowledge doesn't really make a meaningful distinction between.
the head and what's being done. mean, to know in Hebrew means you're you're acting out on that knowledge and putting it into practice. There's an actual hands-on component. Same with belief, by the way. But belief is very hands-on. So with that said, as you grow as a believer,
Nathan (22:32)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (22:45)
you come into a deeper understanding. I mean, also, just as a human being, as you grow older, as you grow riser, you go, I mean, you can use age as an example here. You gain more understanding of, I'm not going to use the word mechanics, but the role that Jesus plays and the of salvation, the history of salvation, how these events have shaped the church and make us.
Nathan (23:10)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (23:16)
Then what you said, Nathan, is really important though, because when you, those events that have been isolated as core non-negotiables of the Christian faith, you remove any one of them and the thing falls apart. That's one way to look at them. So if you take away Jesus' divinity, well, the whole salvation plan now is ruptured. This is why Paul, I one of the creedal
kind of passages in the New Testament is 1 Corinthians 15. And in there, Paul famously says, you know, if Jesus is not raised, we are of all men most to be pitied. So, that resurrection of Jesus from the dead is absolutely essential.
Nathan (23:49)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it kinda
seems like that is the bottom jenga block in this whole thing.
Cameron (24:04)
Right. Yeah. mean, if that didn't, and it's not just a matter of, well, you have to believe this to be a good person. No, it doesn't work without it. I mean, the whole, it's the linchpin of how this whole salvific plan unfolds. So I don't think I really helped much. don't think I added, I think I'm just restating in wordier, in a wordier form what you just, what you just said really well, but.
Nathan (24:27)
Well,
there's another level here that you can comment on that I think if you've if you've noticed a change in belief in yourself or a change in belief in somebody else again Let's talk about the nature belief a second because I think Leslie new begin is the master here On on just pointing out that when you doubt something or you come to disbelieve something
Cameron (24:41)
Okay, so we're going to talk about the nature of belief here now. This is really important. Yeah.
He's really good. Yeah.
Nathan (24:55)
that that doesn't happen in a vacuum, it's because you have come to believe that something else is true. And so the silly, acquaint analogy I always use if, you if you come to me and say, Nathan, I I believe the moon is made out of cheese. And I say, I doubt it. What I'm functionally saying is I have a different set of beliefs about the structure of the moon. So it's not that I'm just not, yeah, doubt doesn't work only as a negative.
Cameron (25:01)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Exactly.
Nathan (25:23)
It's the opposite of a positive thing in the other direction.
Cameron (25:24)
Now you're
standing on something. My question for people is, all right, if you have a doubt, what is supporting your doubts? You've got some other, right, you've got another alternative belief. yeah, because Nubigen, he points this out in the Gospel in a Pluralist Society. He points out that you can only call something into doubt on the basis of a prior belief, just like your moon example. So if you...
Nathan (25:32)
Yeah, what's the alternative belief? Alternative belief.
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Cameron (25:52)
For instance, here when it comes to the belief in the existence of God or Jesus' divinity or something like that, so if you say I'm starting to, let's just take for one example, I'm starting to disbelieve in the divinity of Christ. So okay, so what would support a doubt like that? Usually with a doubt like that of that particular shade, it would be something like, well,
I don't think that it's possible for somebody to be human and divine simultaneously. can't square that. Or it might be an even broader issue. I'm finding it increasingly hard to believe in the supernatural. That was a big one in early modernism. Again, belief doesn't happen in the vacuum. There are also cultural factors that shape it.
Nathan (26:33)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (26:46)
in the years of the industrial and the scientific revolution, it was profoundly disconcerting for certain people because it seemed to be the case that, no, not only can we understand nature and understand all of these processes, it looks like we can kind of control nature a little bit too. Now, we're getting schooled on this one a little bit, but it seems like at least it seemed within our grasp to control nature and all of that.
For a lot of people, they thought, what role does that leave for God? We had thought that he was, you know, in Christ, all things hold together, that he's supervening the whole process, but maybe it turns out we don't need him. And so, at this time, now there are bigger questions there that people should have been asking, like, why is there anything, why is there something rather than nothing in the first place? But all that aside, what that started to do was it created a problem for people's beliefs sometimes where they would think, all right, the supernatural increasingly
It's lacking plausibility in this particular historical moment. So that was the positive belief. The supernatural is exceedingly unlikely in a scientific universe.
Nathan (27:54)
But there's
a reason why what you're saying here is uniquely helpful in the friendship pastoral deep cultural apologetic sense is that often the thing that somebody quote unquote stops believing is really just a bubble in the paint of a deeper rust issue. ⁓ There's a broader, ⁓ so you responded to something like.
Cameron (28:15)
Yes.
Nathan (28:21)
We could say, don't believe in miracles. Well, maybe it's a profound way in which we think about materialism. oftentimes the theological outworking of it is a unique form. if you don't get around to the deeper underlying. So, yeah, if somebody has, has somebody has adopted ⁓ a zero supernatural category, 10 good reasons to believe in the resurrection isn't going to help.
Cameron (28:26)
Right. Yeah.
what's supporting your doubt.
Mm-hmm.
So what's important, you have to, but you have to, you have to ferret that out though. Yeah. And you have to get that out on the table. So what you just said is really important, Nathan, but if the, if that's not stated, if that's left unstated, then you could be whipping yourself into a frenzy and getting really frustrated and wasting your breath, trying to offer all sorts of proofs for something that somebody categorically rejects on general principle. So it's important.
Nathan (28:49)
You see what you so let's make sure we get that clear.
Cameron (29:14)
to get the presupposition out and just, well, if your assumption, if your resting assumption, and I will say it's interesting because resting assumptions are, it's not that people are being sneaky. It's that people for different reasons are often either unaware of what their resting assumptions are, or they're a little bit reluctant to bring them out. Introspection is hard. In some cases, they might be a little bit reluctant to bring them out into the light of day.
Nathan (29:35)
Introspection is hard.
Cameron (29:42)
Because when you bring them out into the light of day, then hey, there those cards are on the table. They're open to discussion. It's much easier to stay as a questioner, just throw questions at people because then you can feel like you're invulnerable. But when you bring your own assumptions out, now you're vulnerable too. And your assumptions are vulnerable too. So you say, all right, I just don't think there can be any miracles.
Nathan (29:49)
It feels like they have feet. Yeah.
Cameron (30:10)
You want to get a person to, if they think that, but they're not, they often won't necessarily say it or they haven't been honest with themselves about it yet. So it's trying to gently pull that out. It's also noticing that, know, belief changes, beliefs change usually very slowly and gradually. It's not like one day you wake up, well, you know what? Now I know Santa Claus isn't real. I remember a friend of mine, this is an example that'll perhaps step on some toes.
All right, let's just, I'm just gonna state the age of the earth shouldn't be a make or break issue. I know it is for some, but many faithful, believing Christians for a long time, including Augustine have believed that the earth is much older. Calvin have believed in an old earth model. But anyway, a mutual friend of me and Nathan's, whom both of us very much respect, very smart.
Nathan (30:57)
Calvin.
Cameron (31:09)
smart gentleman named John, one day told me, said, he realized one day that he realized, it just came to him, I no longer believe in a young earth. He had for a long time and been raised to as a young Christian, but he said what was interesting, we were talking about what's called doxastic involuntarism, which basically is just a hideous philosophical phrase for describing the nature of
Nathan (31:30)
There you go.
I've been vaccinated against that.
Cameron (31:39)
change in belief and usually how it's a slow, slow creep. So he had just recognized that slowly over the years, that belief had just worn down and eventually worn away. And one day he just, it dawned on him, hey, I no longer believe. There's a John Updike story about a pastor who one day wakes up and just realizes he no longer believes. And it was, I remember reading that shortly after John's story and I remember,
It's a profound, now John Opdyck himself was a Christian, but it's a really profound book on unbelief because of how true that is to life.
Nathan (32:20)
Yeah, but it happens in the other direction too. So let me say something about that. The other thing though, I think on, if you and I were to go and talk to John again today, we might have some questions about his biblical interpretive framework, his view on death, sin, a whole lot of other things that we would say would be foundational and be tied up into conversations that go around that. so,
Cameron (32:43)
Oh, so don't
get the impression that I'm saying you aren't doing things that form your beliefs. are. The involuntarism, that word, they're involuntary. So you don't have usually direct control over your deep core assumption beliefs. You have involuntary control. So what you're putting into your head, what you're feeding your... So with somebody who's gaining a sense of unbelief about Christianity, what's in your feed all day long? What you're reading, well, usually what you're listening to.
What you're feeding on, feeding your mind and your heart with is, yes, you are what you eat to an extent. It is shaping and forming you in a slow and indirect process. Yeah.
Nathan (33:16)
You are what you eat, to some degree.
but to
complete my other thought in his book, is it simply Christian, simple Christianity? and T right. Yeah. He tells a story about, cause he said, think about how people wake up. He said, some people jump out of bed, land on both feet one minute before their alarm clock goes off and they are wide awake and ready to hit the day. And he said, and other people, the alarm goes off.
Cameron (33:31)
Simply, NT Tom Wright? Yeah.
Not me, but okay.
Nathan (33:54)
They hit the snooze, they stagger around for a while, they drink a cup of coffee, and then at some point they realize, ⁓ I'm awake. And he said, there are people who have salvation experiences in similar ways. Some people do have. I could tell you that at 6.27 PM on Friday, you know, 1987, I boom, like I knew I was awake. But he said, for a lot of other people coming to belief,
Cameron (34:02)
You
Nathan (34:20)
Because I just want to make the point that this slow shift in phase isn't only negative, that at one point, say out loud to themselves, wait, I do believe Jesus rose from the dead. Wait a second, I do believe there is a God who loves me. Wait a second, I do believe there's meaning and purpose for my life. Wait a second, I do think there are things that God wants to see me do, and that it's this slow, ⁓ so this turned into more of an epistemological thing on the way in which we end up in these positions.
Cameron (34:49)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (34:49)
But
it also means that if you, somebody took five months to drift into a position, it's probably not going to be a five minute conversation that helps them reorient. ⁓
Cameron (35:00)
Yes.
Well, in the positive way to say some of that is also you steadily, if you in a disciplined fashion, if just part of your habits involve prayer, scripture, and church, which all three of those are viewed as expendable by many Christians, if you just look at their habits, they wouldn't necessarily say that. But if all three of those are in place in your life, they're doing their positive work on you.
They are shaping it for, even on days where you're really grumpy and you hate the songs that you're singing in church that day, it's Nathan, it's Arki, Arki, whatever, but they're doing their work on you. Even if you're in, man, even if you're slogging your way through Leviticus or if you're hearing Paul scolding the Galatians, it's doing its work on you. And day in, day out, it's helping to shape you. Now you throw those things out, then other things are doing their work on you.
Nathan (35:59)
Mm-hmm. Well, so let's let's let's conclude this then with the person who's asking the question. What do do about a friend who's starting to lose? a fragment or a piece or a thought of something and I gave a talk recently and I said there's a What you do is you keep the light on? ⁓ You know when the when the prodigal son left the father didn't leave home also he stayed home and stood watching and inviting and so
Cameron (36:00)
all the time.
Hmm.
Nathan (36:28)
You're going to want to continue that friendship in a meaningful, robust, delightful, deep communion way, because you are, you will continue to be part of the input on the other person's life. And I think, you know, there's the flip side of this. Don't be deceived. Bad company corrupts good character. We're malleable based off of the communities by which we surround ourselves. And so to be a positive aid in somebody else's life means that we need to have, you know, that
that sense of community and healthy inputs in our lives as well and carry on and cast the big vision about what is good. yeah, there are times in which there are people who aren't deconstructing. They just have a legitimate question about something and the apologetic resources and theological resources are phenomenal, helpful. Hey, ⁓ sometimes people have very simple questions and if you're at the right place at right time to be helpful.
Praise the Lord. And onward you go. And other times people have very long, very drawn out, very complex life situations and you'll need to be there for a very long time in order to walk through that with them. think through these metrics. What are the core fundamentals here? What does it mean to actually doubt something? ⁓ What are the places and the elements in which we can help people be more faithful? And then can we use the little litmus test of, is this person doubting God's ability to fulfill his promise?
Cameron (37:51)
Hmm.
Nathan (37:51)
And in doing so, then we have some, bigger issues. Hope that's been helpful. This could be probably an entire book, but maybe that'll get you pointed in the right direction. As you're pondering some of these things, you've been listening to thinking out loud, a podcast where we think out loud about current events and Christian.
Cameron (38:08)
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