Biblical Prophecy Explained: Symbolism, Sovereignty, and Christ-Centered Interpretation
Cameron (00:00.962)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co-host, Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:04.632)
And I'm your co-host, Nathan Rittenhouse.
Cameron (00:07.116)
Alright, today we're going to talk about biblical prophecy, the nature of biblical prophecy and all of the symbolism involved and all the cryptic speculative questions. But before we get there, I want to tell you about something pretty neat that both Nathan and I are involved in. If you'd like to actually talk to us and see us live, we will be speaking at the Summer Academy hosted by the C.S. Lewis Institute, the place where, is my...
My other employer, by the way, I'm the director of apologetics over there at the CS Lewis Institute. This is going to be the dates. I'm going to give you the dates. They're going to, it's going to run from July 12th through July 16th. So that's July 12th through the July 16th. And it's called Rebirth, Recovering Hope for a Dying Culture. There is a fantastic lineup of speakers. We have our own Stuart McAllister.
Nathan (01:03.823)
yeah, way better speakers than us.
Cameron (01:04.236)
We, way better speakers than us. Unfortunately, Nathan and I are also there, but also Dr. Kevin Van Hooser, ever heard of him, and Jerry Root, and Matthew Milliner, who does a lot on, he's an artist, writes a lot about the arts, teaches at Wheaton. So fantastic line up. Dr. Andy Banister, ever heard of him, also gonna be there. So this is gonna be in Illinois.
Nathan (01:07.704)
You
Nathan (01:29.815)
No good.
Cameron (01:33.364)
at a beautiful location. a quiet, I believe it's a monastery, so it's quiet. It's a retreat kind of center. But here's the main takeaway. It's going to be one long, rich conversation. You have total access to the speakers in between talks. It's not like the speakers come and then leave and you talk amongst yourselves. We all eat together. We all hang out together. So the Summer Academy, if you want more information on this and you're interested in coming, if you want to register,
go to the CS Lewis Institute website. So that's cslewisinstitute.org and you'll actually see a big banner for it at the top of the website for the Summer Academy. So hope to see some of you there in person. All right. We're going to talk about prophecy now, on to the future. Yeah, so we recently received a question on prophecy.
Nathan (02:21.196)
Now, on to the future.
Cameron (02:31.596)
And Nathan, I want to let you unpack that a little bit for us and then we'll kind of...
Nathan (02:34.018)
Yeah. Well, it was a very specific question about a very specific verse and this person is doing some good research and really diligently studying, the Old Testament and working through some of the, particularly in the Minor Prophets, you get a lot of references to all sorts of images from animals to horns to eyes to there's a lot going on. Anybody who's waded through that knows that.
challenges not only is there a lot going on but there are a lot of interpretations of that so the charts the figures the courses the Yeah, mainly charts the historical accounts the analysis the the mapping of which of these prophecies have been fulfilled Which of them haven't which of them correlate to specific? Historical events and figures which ones are we uncertain of which one? That is a whole I mean just massive field of
Cameron (03:12.642)
you
Cameron (03:29.59)
Another ball of wax.
Nathan (03:31.481)
But yeah. and I mean, and obviously we then are related the way in which you see the relationship between the old and new Testament and the prophecies from Isaiah about the coming of Christ. It's like, it's, there's a lot going on there. However, Cameron, I'm going to throw you, I'm going to throw us both under the bus and you're going to have like for the listener, you're going to have to be patient with us here because we're going to say things that sound jarring and then we're going to have to dig ourselves out of that hole. But.
Cameron (03:38.382)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (03:50.336)
boy.
Nathan (04:01.354)
In light of some of this in, yeah, well, here's how I said Cameron on a scale from one to 10. How interesting is, are the minutia of the details of the old Testament minor prophets in their application to Greco-Roman Persian history? How interested are you in that?
Cameron (04:20.501)
Mm-hmm. I said two out of ten. The veins on this particular leaf, two out of ten. Yeah.
Nathan (04:23.5)
And you said two out of 10.
And there's a sense of which I'm kind of in that. Okay, so some people are like shutting us off right now, like you guys don't even take scripture seriously. No, that's not true. That's not true. Let us make our argument here. So, I'll just give you the specifics of the question. So somebody asked me about the craftsman builder paradigm in Zachariah chapter one.
Cameron (04:34.228)
Mm-hmm.
Those are some fun noises. Yeah.
Nathan (04:53.986)
So you have the four horns that lead to the punishment and the scattering of Israel. And then you have the four craftsmen or four blacksmiths, depending on your translation, that rise up in order to fight the enemies of Israel. And so the question came in with a, like a giant like help. And I know this person pretty well, and it's a, it's a very productive jovial conversation of just like, man, when you start going and looking online or other resources, there are all sorts of interpretations of what's happening here.
Cameron (05:09.432)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (05:23.704)
Is this a pattern that Christians are to emulate in the sense that we are supposed to rise up to the aid of the people of God? Is it saying that we are supposed to confront the enemies of the people of God? Is it saying that we are supposed to build and construct things on the other side of the punishment of God or civilizational collapse? Is it to say that these four people have already existed historically and we can link them to historical figures or movements that have arisen in the history?
And you know what? think, I don't know about the pattern element as far as how that applies to modern Christians, but on the historical parts of the book of Daniel and other things, I think there's, there's a lot of neat stuff to go and look at how the prophets and prophecies and the dreams lined up with the rise and falls of different empires. And yeah, I think that's, that's there. And that's great. On the other hand, I'll tell you what I said. And then you tell me if I gave the right answer, Cameron is, is I said, actually, if you look at Zachariah chapter one,
Cameron (06:13.335)
Well.
Nathan (06:23.518)
and in all of this prophecy in general. The helpful thing for me to remember is that God is the primary agent. He is the one who's doing the doing. So even in Zechariah 1, God says, I will rebuild the temple. Well, clearly he used individuals in political circumstances in order to rebuild the temple, but he's taking credit and saying, this is my initiative, this is my plan, and as my will, this will happen. So what I think is happening in the Zechariah 1 and the Builders and the Craftsmen paradigm,
is God saying, look, Israel is going to be punished for their disobedience. I'm going to use other empires to do it. And I'm going to ensure that they aren't totally wiped out and that a remnant will be preserved. And I will continue to be faithful to my covenant and continue to be faithful to my people. And even in my punishment, there will be mercy and I will fulfill what I have promised. And so when I look at a passage like that, I don't immediately jump in my mind camera to, I got to figure out in
587 BC who was correlating. think thank you God for being faithful to your people and thank you for being faithful to me and even in my blockheadedness and sinfulness and stubbornness. You don't annihilate me. You provide a way and you remain faithful to your promises. And so I come out of it with a deep sense of confidence in the sovereignty and the goodness of God, a deep sense of appreciation for God's mercy and his patience and his faithfulness and for his plan of salvation.
Cameron (07:27.406)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (07:50.35)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (07:51.703)
And so I come out of it with a, a sense of peace and joy, not an anxiety of do I know how to fit all of these little blocks into parts of history that may or may not have even been recorded in my own dangerous water there, or am I getting the right points out of it? Am I being too dismissive of the, of the charts and the detailed analytical orientation? Tell me what I want to hear Cameron.
Cameron (08:16.878)
Oh, well, forget the dangerous water. You are in quicksand, brother. Just kidding. No, I think, well, so first of all, I think that generally speaking, when it comes to scripture, this is just, this is a broad observation. God doesn't hide key aspects of what we need to know in esoteric elements of prophecy. Now scripture is also, sure. Generally speaking, doesn't hide key aspects of his,
Nathan (08:21.208)
Yeah
Nathan (08:36.034)
That's a good line. it, say, wait, stop right there. Say that sentence again, because it's important.
Cameron (08:46.754)
you know, saving action in esoteric elements of prophecy. You articulated the main themes there. Also, another just I want to bring, I just want to say, I don't think I'd look this up on the internet. You know, that's such a, it's such a knee-jerk response for us to, I'm going to look this up on the internet or I'm going to, you know, try it, try out Claude or chat GPT. The better way to go the pastoral route would be get a good
commentary. It's slower, but get a good and respected commentary. Where you do your research on the internet is find a respected commentary on this particular book. And then that person is going to give you good information on the kind of the symbolism, how the symbolism would have been understood and giving you context for the book. There are absolutely about the cult...
Nathan (09:39.86)
and historical context and historical archaeological finds in the, yeah, it's all there.
Cameron (09:44.226)
archaeological finds, it's all that a good commentary will do wonders for you here. People who write commentaries are doing, they're marvelous servants of the church. It's not easy work, it's painstaking, and it's often thankless work, but it's really, really important. So a good commentary on that would also set you straight. mean, there are, yeah, please do. Yes.
Nathan (10:05.56)
Can I put in a plug here for the website best commentaries.com? Their tagline now is rotten tomatoes, rotten tomatoes for biblical studies. Yeah. So you can go look at, if you go to best commentaries.com, pick a book of the Bible and you'll have list of recommended scholarship and commentaries and the theology and then the reviews of those great resource best commentaries.com. Not, not sponsoring this show at all.
Cameron (10:12.356)
heck yes.
I love it. I love it.
Cameron (10:33.593)
So what those commentaries will also help you to do is they're going to help you make a meaningful distinction between helpful context and knowledge and fruitless speculation.
Nathan (10:46.336)
Okay, yes, this is all true, but my fourth great grandmother did not have access to bestcommentaries.com. So was she just dead in the water and reading the Old Testament?
Cameron (10:55.099)
Nathan would say that. You're representing your church tradition well. well, I wanted to bring this in because I think you'll have a lot of really good stuff to say about it. So, let's talk a little bit about what is sometimes called the perspicuity of scripture because I think that is, you're really good on this. It's really important. So, scripture is written, how do I word this?
Nathan (10:59.16)
I'm on brand.
Cameron (11:21.037)
The Bible rewards digging. has layers. It is incredibly rich. But at the same time, one of the wonders of scripture is that it is also accessible to people who don't necessarily have a higher education, who didn't. In other words, you talk to certain people and they can give you the impression that you have to go to seminary to truly understand Christianity.
and I would be in total agreement with Nathan that that is... Right. so Nathan actually did go to... Between the two of us, he's the one who actually studied theology and seminary. I've studied apologetics. But he would say that's woefully wrong. Going to seminary can be a great thing, but you don't have to go to seminary. You don't have to have a PhD in theology or a THM to understand the Bible. So say a little bit of...
Nathan (11:50.424)
I went to a couple, it was helpful.
Nathan (12:12.556)
Well, and that's not knocking on the academy. It's just that scripture itself doesn't give us those categories. So, yeah, right, yeah.
Cameron (12:19.555)
No, scripture belongs to the church, not the academy. I think we could just go ahead and say that. But yeah, say a little bit more about that, Nathan, because it's important.
Nathan (12:25.88)
Well, but the other thing is I want to say something about the sufficiency of Scripture.
So, and this gets wonky, think, particularly in the more Protestant reform on the sola scriptura side of things, of do you actually believe that scripture itself is self-interpreting to the degree that the core elements of the salvific plan of God are revealed in scripture itself? Because at some point you sort of slip into
Cameron (12:39.779)
Mm-hmm, sure.
Nathan (12:56.534)
We need scripture plus a PhD in Greco Roman history, or we need scripture plus chat GBT, or we need scripture plus my favorite YouTube channel. and again, it's not that that's not helpful, but if you're reaching a conclusion that can only be reached through the external sources, I would say you're not talking about one of the foundational elements of the Christian faith or the biblical story. Is that. Yeah.
Cameron (13:20.909)
Hmm. And I would agree with you on that. I know I would totally agree. I would. Well, you know, I said God doesn't hide key aspects of what we need to know behind esoteric elements and prophecy. That's the same way of saying just what Nathan did. Now that said, if so, if you are curious, and this is nothing wrong with being curious about this stuff. I mean, the Bible is fascinating. I find so the ending, crazy parts of the book of Daniel and then book of Revelation.
Nathan (13:25.464)
I'll put my stakes in the sand there.
Cameron (13:50.041)
Really fascinating. Now, can you learn all you need to know from that? All you need to know, the need to know basis from those books by just reading the book? Yes. If you want to understand some of the specifics of the culture that shaped it, how John's audience would have understood some of the symbolism, do you need some extra biblical sources? Yes. But do you need to know that? Is that the need to take away from Revelation? No, it's not. But now, can it enhance?
Nathan (14:16.844)
Yeah, is Zoroastrian monotheism during the... Yeah, is Persian Zoroastrian monotheism during the exile a core component of the...
Cameron (14:25.571)
All right, well, where I want to, here, you can set me straight, Nathan. Nathan and I do differ barely. I mean, it barely counts. We differ footnote level on this slightly. Well, we're about to find out. My only caution here is that sometimes those very books, books that contain prophecy, have created a little bit of trouble when people have sort of run with them in an irresponsible way.
Nathan (14:36.856)
We're about to find out.
Cameron (14:54.551)
Now, that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. So, we both know that a lot of trouble has happened because of bizarre interpretations of both Revelation and specifically, and of Daniel. And that was motivated. mean, that didn't happen in a vacuum. know, the two major, okay, yeah, the two major events that shaped that in the early modern kind of fundamentalist movement had to do with German higher criticism, which I mean,
Nathan (15:05.379)
yeah.
Nathan (15:12.17)
I have thoughts.
Cameron (15:22.265)
would be profoundly unsettling for any Christian who was paying attention to what was going on. German higher criticism and then Darwinian evolution and what that was doing for our understanding of human beings, the nature of the universe, the purpose of human life, all of that was... So there was a strong response, but that's what would motivate somebody like Stanley Hauerwas to overstate the case by saying, the worst thing that ever happened was to give the Bible to the common people.
he's being deliberately provocative. doesn't actually mean it quite like that, but that's kind of what he's getting at is people took it, ran with it and came up with some wonky ideas. all those years later, I'm watching a movie on the end of the world in my little Bible school in Austria. remember watching this movie about the events of revelation made on a very, very slim budget with
diminutive little figure who was represented the Antichrist. I remember these very fake looking humongous pieces of hail coming down. We want to guard against some of that too.
Nathan (16:31.38)
So, man, was like one step up from the final graph there, Cameron. The millennial version.
Cameron (16:38.351)
My favorite part, Nathan, was when they asked the supercomputer, which looked like, I mean, as old fashioned as it can get, what they asked the supercomputer to tell them what's about to happen. And it just writes, the return. The return. Yeah, anyway, sorry.
Nathan (16:52.792)
Okay, well so we've got a couple well, yeah, we've got a lot we've got a lot going on here
Cameron (16:58.989)
Yeah.
Nathan (17:04.95)
There are two parts I want to run with. Let's talk about, well, let's start with your, if I forget, asking me about Christo-centrism later. Here's the thing is that, so when you're talking about the response to the higher biblical criticism of saying, well, this can't be factually true and this can't be factually true and this doesn't align with history and the Bible says this, but that didn't really, then I think there was a rightful Christian biblical archeology push back into saying, hang on a second.
Cameron (17:13.977)
Sure. Okay.
Nathan (17:35.191)
You've overstated the case in the opposite direction. are some, you look at a Kenneth Kitchens, the Old Testament reliability and just the vast volumes of work that came, think in a helpful critical response to the criticism. And I said, wait a second, you've, you've overshot the case here. and there have been, it's, it's interesting in that as this conversation has continued, it's gotten better for Christians. think at one point we had no evidence of there being hit tights.
Cameron (18:00.431)
Hmm.
Nathan (18:03.032)
And that was a kind of a flaw in the history of saying, look, the Bible keeps talking about Hittites. We have no records of Hittites. Here's an obvious contradiction from our historical record and scripture. This can't be a historical document. Well, now we have an entire Hittite library.
Cameron (18:14.958)
Mm.
Nathan (18:19.116)
So, okay, you know, I think there are Hittites because scripture says so and also if you have a library full of their literature, they probably existed as a civilization. So there are ways in which this kind of unravels and unfolds. It did seem like, and to get back to the number two on the scale of one to 10 at the degree to which this interests you, us, is not to say that it isn't important. It's that
Cameron (18:43.629)
Sure.
Nathan (18:48.318)
I spend a lot of time reading books on it. Now, last summer I did the Casket Empty, the Gordon Conwell, like from creation to the yet to come and talked about the intertestamental period and how the events prophesied in Daniel unfolded within the Persian Empire and Babylon. It's fascinating stuff, but it's like a pretty small percentage of my diet, theologically, because I don't feel like I have to justify
Belief in Scripture to the secular world on a daily basis Is that important? Yes, but if that is the totality of my Interaction and engagement with my I'm I'm missing the so there's a sense in which what I don't want to see us do with prophecy is get So concerned in the the knockdown dragon mount bloody knuckle fighting over the details that we miss the entire
joy, depth and gratitude that comes from understanding the bigger principle at play. That's not to say the details don't matter. They do, but the details are not the priority in how we think about that today.
Cameron (19:45.871)
Yeah.
Cameron (19:53.901)
Yeah. It's worth pointing out. Well, yeah, so there are different motivations for looking into this. You just mentioned if you're looking at it as, I want to comprehensively or as accurately as I can prove the veracity of this prophecy to critics of the Bible. Well, that's one motivation. Another might just be genuine curiosity.
which by the way I think is fine. Yeah, so I mean, we all have, and that's just blue eyes, brown eyes a little bit. I'm fascinated for instance right now in particular by the practices and the habits of the early church and also the culture surrounding the early church, the religious belief system was in Rome and all of that. And I love to get into the minutiae and the details of all of that. Is that all necessary for me as a...
Nathan (20:24.962)
Both these are fine.
Cameron (20:51.631)
Are those the essentials, the bare basics for me as a Christian in terms of what I believe? No, but I'm very interested in it. absolutely. So what it can do, if it's a healthy interest and it doesn't bleed over into distraction or into morbid or unhealthy speculation, we'll talk about that in a second, I think we should, but then yeah, it can deepen.
Nathan (20:56.886)
No, but it might change the way you raise your kids.
Cameron (21:18.671)
your faith and it can add maturity. And same with the prophecy interest. you do consult one of those commentaries and do your homework and do the not quick internet research where you're going to find... That's almost the equivalent of... Let's say you have some symptom and what should you not do? What do doctors not want you to do? Don't go to WebMD. Oh, great. I have cancer.
No, it turns out you just have a normal A campaign or here or something like that. So you don't want to necessarily go right to the internet there. But if you do your homework and you do your research and consult good responsible commentaries that draw the helpful, meaningful distinction between what we can know, because a good historian is going to tell you, hey, history's hard. We can do our best. And here's what we can say with confidence. And beyond this, we just don't know.
it's a little bit opaque. And there are some people who want to just keep going and keep speculating and keep going. mean, you know, it reminds me of Nathan is not too dissimilar to, you know, let's say somebody gets really into a TV show. Let's say like a show like Twin Peaks. Well, if there's a show like, I mean, whatever show it is, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Twin Peaks, whatever it is, there are certain people who get very into fan theories about it. And, you know, what does this diary of this character mean?
Do you think this has hidden dimensions? Here's why that part doesn't interest me. I think people are basically getting really creative. I don't think they're discovering anything about the show. I think the writers wrote the show and I don't think the mythology went that deep. So I see a lot of people wasting a lot of time there. And you can do the same thing here where you just, if you travel into just vain speculation, you're going to spin your wheels and waste a lot of time.
Nathan (23:00.642)
Yeah, well here's the, okay.
Cameron (23:11.023)
This is Augustine called this curiosity, where it's the sin of curiosity, or you're going beyond what you can know and then you're wasting time and moving into empty speculation. Yeah.
Nathan (23:19.352)
Okay, this is not at all what was happening in the question as we received it, but it's a real category. Yeah, no, but it's real thing. So here's the question, is to say, as you pursue some of these things, are you learning more about the character of God? Or does this come out of a desire, need to re-prove? Like, you ever listen to people who say to each other they love each other, like,
Cameron (23:24.919)
No, no, I'm not, I'm not accusing the questioner. I'm just saying, I'm saying that the distinct Tennessee. Yeah.
Nathan (23:48.131)
three or four times a minute. Like something is deeply wrong with that relationship. If it takes that level of public validation in order to like, that's not a healthy sign. mean, there's a, I'm sure there's a psychological term here of,
Cameron (23:50.159)
Yeah.
Cameron (23:57.081)
I constant reassurances,
Nathan (24:08.216)
At some sense, yeah, so this points back to, this is not being dismissive, it's not trying to be haughty, it's not being proud, and it's not dismissing biblical archaeology or the Old Testament apologetics. It's saying at some point, you're going to have to say to yourself,
Thank you God for your faithfulness and history. I accept that. What do you have for me now and moving forward? And there will be times in which you may be gleaned a little time of interest in this and want to go back and brush up on it because somebody has a good question. But the thing of it is, is that the miraculous elements of the Old Testament were disbelieved by people who lived through them.
Cameron (24:33.743)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (24:41.455)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (24:53.038)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (24:53.878)
So there isn't the apologetic value that we think there is necessarily always in being able to say, look, the Bible accurately describes history. does Josephus, but I'm not changing my life based off of what he says. There has to be a second story stacked on top of this thing that matters.
Cameron (25:04.975)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (25:13.847)
Yes, there's a really helpful essay that I would recommend by John Webster, and it's called The Dogmatic Location of the Canon. And for me, this was one of those pieces that sort of settled the matter. Not in the sense that it told me something necessarily that was new, but in the sense... Because I had wrestled a little bit with what Nathan had said. Why do I not feel a strong urge to justify the integrity of scripture to critics and meet those critics on their own terms?
had long harbored the assumption that, the terms in which they're offering this debate are wrong in the first place. If you ask me to justify scripture and then categorically deny the possibility of the supernatural, there's not really going to be much chance of me justifying scripture on those terms anyway, and I don't want to. But basically, Webster says, and in a whole lot more of a sophisticated manner than I can hear, that it makes sense if you're a believer
to understand scripture as part of God's salvation plan, part of his revelation to us. when you see it in those... Now, does that solve it all neatly? No, but it makes perfect sense. And you are justified as a believer, as a Christian, in thinking along those lines. It would make sense that God reveals himself decisively to us in Jesus Christ, his only son.
Nathan (26:19.725)
Yeah.
Cameron (26:40.915)
and Jesus Christ gives to us upon his departure the Holy Spirit, but also he reveals himself to us in Scripture. And Scripture is illuminated for us in a supernatural process by the Holy Spirit who opens the eyes of our heart. So that is a perfectly sensible process within the framework of Christian belief. Somebody says, I don't accept that framework. Okay, that's fine. That's where we disagree.
Nathan (26:58.081)
you
Nathan (27:05.046)
Okay, that's great. Yeah, right. So I mean, it's like saying, hey, we're gonna play baseball, we're gonna run to first base first, and there are gonna be three strikes and you're out. And somebody says, I wanna kick the ball with my feet and run to third base first. You say, okay, that's a different game.
Cameron (27:22.809)
So part of what Nathan said is really helpful. There's a balance here. So thank the Lord for this discovery, these archaeological discoveries of Hittite literature and all of these other pieces of ancient ruins that corroborate scripture. But just be careful. If you hitch your wagon too much to all of those outside sources, those corroborating pieces, well, there are fluctuations there and you're on shakier ground.
Nathan (27:54.361)
Okay, not only that, so you mentioned, how did you phrase this about God's salvation plan revealed through Scripture. Yeah, here's the thing. There's also a fulfillment of a lot of this stuff in Christ. And so that's when I said I wanted to come back to Christo-centrism. Yeah, thank you for that reminder of my reminder.
Cameron (28:04.099)
God, not hiding. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Cameron (28:14.736)
Christocentric, please. Yes, let me remind you, Nathan. Just kidding.
Nathan (28:22.36)
The stuff that I see go craziest, jumps from Daniel to Revelation and skips what Jesus said about the end times. Jesus is so simple and so clear that it's almost not exciting for some people. So here's my takeaway. Here's my check valve on this.
Cameron (28:33.316)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (28:43.225)
But yeah, the locusts, the locusts, Nathan. The Whore of Babylon.
Nathan (28:52.3)
Does my reading of Daniel 7 in the book of Revelation contradict things that Jesus himself taught? And if so, I have the wrong reading of the apocalyptic literature. So, I want to see Jesus' road to Emmaus talks about the Old Testament. Matthew 5, I've not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. Other places, all scripture points to me that I do have a Christo. I'm not Jewish. I believe the Messiah has come.
Cameron (29:04.387)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (29:14.339)
Yep.
Cameron (29:22.479)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (29:22.764)
Therefore a lot of the Old Testament prophecy stuff. I'm like check It has happened it's and it's been fulfilled and brought to light in Christ. So one question ask yourself is how does the arrival of the Messiah address the hopes and fears of everything laid into the Old Testament prophetic vision and witness of what is to come So I want to I want to put Christ as a central figure
Cameron (29:28.1)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (29:52.075)
and his incarnation, his birth, his teaching, his life, his death, his resurrection as a core foundational interpretive lens back into the Old Testament. if I'm skipping, if, yeah, anyway, I can get ranting on this, but let's keep Jesus as the Christ, as our key hermeneutical companion.
Cameron (30:01.423)
Mm.
Cameron (30:08.738)
Amen.
Cameron (30:14.627)
Yeah.
Nathan (30:21.108)
And if you do that, really dampens down a lot of the fascinating militaristic, super wild and ultimately destructive things that we've seen develop out of a over fascination.
Cameron (30:21.134)
I like that.
Cameron (30:28.473)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (30:35.363)
Christmas present idea for Nathan. Make him a t-shirt. This is a challenge to one of you listeners. I know one of you will do this. Make him a t-shirt that says, is my hermeneutical companion. I'm putting it out there. But yeah, I mean, and I think to put it, that's so well stated, Nathan. mean, Jesus is the skeleton key, to put it crudely, to scripture. All right? So that's what, he is the one who unlocks it all.
Nathan (30:46.872)
There's a good sentence.
Cameron (31:03.875)
So if that's not your operating paradigm, something's gone wrong.
Nathan (31:09.356)
Yeah, and let's apply it here. So if we go back and look at a lot of the Old Testament prophecies of God's going to punish Israel for their disobedience, but they're not all going to be wiped out. Isaiah 9, the virgin will give birth. That meant something then. It meant they all thought they were going to die. And God was saying through Isaiah, there will be a time in the future in which a Jewish girl will give birth to a Jewish boy. Good news. That means we don't all die. It also turns out it meant
Cameron (31:35.982)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (31:38.572)
way more than simply what they thought at the time. And so I think there is that dual fulfillment aspect and element of this too that we want to see brought to a conclusion in...
Cameron (31:50.307)
Yeah, just while we're wrapping up, let's bring in one more example of something being fulfilled in a way people couldn't have possibly anticipated when people were expecting Elijah and the way Jesus answers that. think say a little bit about that because that speaks to what you just said.
Nathan (32:03.382)
Okay, but what-
Nathan (32:09.494)
Well, here's what I'm going say about it. Is the problem with overly narrowed, lead to finding Old Testament prophecy is that your vision of the goodness of God is probably too low. The scandal of the New Testament and the revelation of who the Messiah is and who the Messiah was for is that it wasn't just for the Jews. It was for the whole earth. It wasn't just that Elijah is coming back in a specific time and spot in a, it was, it prefigured the arrival of
Cameron (32:30.159)
Mmm.
Nathan (32:39.096)
So the danger is that you're going to get less. But when you look at Christ as the hermeneutical companion again, then you see the story is actually so much bigger. So I don't know if we've done justice, Cameron, for all the people who want to write us off as heretics here. Let us just clearly say at the end, Old Testament prophecy, the details, yes, good, necessary.
Cameron (33:08.163)
We affirm the authority of Scripture wholeheartedly.
Nathan (33:08.268)
foundational, helpful, we affirm the authority of scripture, biblical archaeology, think is super fascinating. But don't stop there. That's the foundation to a launch pad into a whole broader biblical. Same thing is true of Revelation. If you read Revelation and you're stressed out at the end, you miss the point. The point is that Christ prevails over chaos.
Cameron (33:17.966)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (33:24.183)
And we will end.
Cameron (33:31.023)
Yep. Yes. And we will defend the authority of scripture, both of us, but on the church's terms, on Jesus's terms, not on the critics' terms. That's the fight we gave up a while ago.
Nathan (33:49.206)
You've been listening to Thinking Out Loud. And boy, we had a lot of out loud thoughts today. A podcast where we think out loud about current events, Christian hope, listener questions, and all sorts of other rabbit trails. If you like the work that we're doing, you can like it, you can share it, you can subscribe to it. And if you'd like to support us financially at being loose in this world, you can do so by visiting www.toltogether.com. Thanks so much.