Why Christians Don’t Know How to Be Christians Anymore
Cameron (00:00.664)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co-host Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:05.279)
And I'm your co-host, Nathan Rittenhouse.
Cameron (00:07.564)
Nathan, people don't know how to be Christians. Christians don't know how to be Christians right now. I should back up. Yeah, I should back up a little bit. plunging you in. So I want to talk about what I think is the biggest strategic need for Christians in North America right now. All right. Does that sound portentous enough?
Nathan (00:12.259)
Gasp. Just you watch your mouth.
Nathan (00:32.127)
Yeah, everybody's going to agree when you say this and go.
Cameron (00:35.884)
All right, well, here, and I've already said a little bit of it, but look, we're in a cultural moment. All of us know that Billy Graham Crusades were important at the time and they served a key function. People were deeply moved by them and there were strong, strong responses, but we all know that that is not what's happening today. And we all know that given our current moment,
that's probably not the future for ministry. So let me also ask this. I'm to ask a question, Nathan, that was put to me, man, years ago when I was in college, when I was a little wee student in college, bright-eyed and excited. And my professor, Donald Williams, who some of you will know Donald Williams, C.S. Lewis, talks a lot about C.S. Lewis and old English scholar, but he talked about, he said, Cameron,
There's this cottage industry of apologetics. Everything's doing so well. He was asking me this because my dad was an apologetics. I came from that world background. He said, but here we are. We have all these resources and here we are. So why isn't it working? So that question, I didn't have an answer for him then, but also my question then for listeners, people tuning in is do we really need one more book on apologetics?
Do we really need one more podcast? Do we really need one more conference? We're doing a podcast. know.
Nathan (02:07.544)
The irony of this, yeah, of us doing a podcast and reading books incessantly, but yeah, your point is well taken.
Cameron (02:15.586)
Yeah. So, and I'm grateful for all these resources. I'm not denigrating them, but I think we all know something else clearly is missing. So I think the biggest strategic need is not more outreach events. Nathan, you and I have been saying this for a long time. As Christians, we really need to clean our room. We need to clean our room before we go out and tell everybody else how they ought to be living. We have some problems here. And so,
What was brought to my attention recently as I was talking about this, I've been just really pressing into the practices of the early church lately. And our friend Tom Terrence gave to me a very helpful paper. And it was written in 2004 by Clint Arnold who teaches at Talbot. And it was on the practice of catechesis. But he begins that paper by reflecting on how he used to teach a new believer's course.
class, sorry, class at his church. And it was six weeks. And then maybe they did another one that was eight weeks. But then he started looking into the practices of the early church and what's called catechesis. Catechesis is a word that scares people sometimes, but it need not. It comes from the Greek word catechane, which just meant to teach. But so this was just the teaching of, this is what the early church did with converts. And it wasn't.
Nathan (03:14.103)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (03:37.078)
Well, and that's, mean, that's, it's because Jesus's last words in Matthew are baptizing disciples, teaching them to obey everything I have commanded. So it was pretty straightforward, obvious that this was the core role of the church.
Cameron (03:41.869)
Yes.
Yes. Yes.
And that focus on teaching them to obey all that I've taught you, was a huge part of the impetus behind this that was often cited. But, so he began to feel very convicted, Clint Arnold did, as he looked into this, because these classes for New Believers were not six weeks. They were not eight weeks. They were not 12 weeks. They were three, it was three years. It was a three-year process. Why?
Well, first of all, these people had come from a world, thoroughly pagan, that was inimical to Christianity in important ways. And they thought it's going to take a lot to bring these people out of this constellation of habits. so they had a fourfold, it's going to get really pretty, but they had a fourfold emphasis and we need to hear all of them. The first was...
Nathan (04:38.531)
this is going to get gritty. This conversation is going to get gritty.
Cameron (04:46.932)
immerse these people in the scriptures. And obviously, this would have involved heavy memorization for many of them because many of them were illiterate. weren't readers necessarily, so they would have been large passages. They would have been read large, large passages, and then they would have also have committed these to memory. So immersion in scriptures was step one. Step two was a survey of important Christian doctrine, the major Christian doctrine that
basically distinguish Christians from those who are not Christians, obviously the Trinity, the Virgin birth, the incarnation of Jesus Christ, all of that, what we would find in a creed. Then, this is a big one for us today, there was a huge focus on cultivating Christian virtue. So getting the pagan out of these former pagans, which they recognized was a process. And so here's where it gets gritty, Nathan.
So there are certain things that they were explicit with their students. So you're a pimp, you can't do that anymore. You build, you you build, make idols or work on shrines. You can't do that anymore. There are certain practices that are now prohibited. If you want to be a Christian, you have to go. Yes.
Nathan (06:05.08)
Well, even in some of the arts also, certain forms of performances that were risque or obviously gladiatorial industries.
Cameron (06:13.644)
Yes. Yeah. So you have to farewell, hanky in hand, to use David Foster Wallace's hilarious phrase, to all of that. It has to go. And then finally, because of all of this, they recognized, these people were immersed in paganism. So they were, as scripture says, and apostle Paul reiterates, you think you're worshiping other gods, but actually you're just communing with demons. So these people, no, we're squeamish about this now. I thought that was Spirit of the Rainforest stuff. No, these people were...
They were enthralled to demons.
Nathan (06:47.154)
hey, say something about the word enthrall.
Cameron (06:50.146)
Well, they had been deeply immersed in
Nathan (06:53.796)
No, no, I'm saying the word is etymologically the word itself to be enthralled means to be in bondage. We think of enthralled as like entertained or amused by something. be enthralled is bondage. To be enthralled is not a flippant like, that's fun. Like I'm interested in an infatuation. It's etymologically bondage. Yeah.
Cameron (07:03.138)
and bondage.
Cameron (07:06.765)
Yes.
Cameron (07:15.04)
No, and we see this in scripture as well. mean, there's that famous passage, you know, Lord, we tried to cast demons, the demons out here, you know, they're not coming out, what's going on? This kind only comes out through prayer. A lot can be said about that passage and I won't do justice to it at all here, but certainly, if you've ever been involved with any kind of deliverance ministries at all, then you'll know that there is such a thing as there are strongholds and there are forms of bondage, particularly if a person has been in a household where there has been
abuse or there has been the use of the occult witchcraft. I've known people in this position. And sometimes there will be a process that's needed because there are forms of bondage that have been established there. And it doesn't, you don't just, there's no flipping off switch.
Nathan (07:59.545)
Yeah. I think, I think 10 years ago, I think 10 years ago, people had been like, huh? I think in 2026, everybody was like, Oh yeah.
Cameron (08:05.805)
Yeah.
Yes, I think so. When I bring this up now, people do not look at me like I have horns growing out of my head at all. They nod in vigorous agreement. I remember years ago, Nathan, we've been involved with a church in New Orleans in the past. And I remember whenever I did some of the talks there, Q &As, I shouldn't have been surprised, but there are many, many questions about the occult because this is New Orleans and there are, know, it's a deep, deep kind of...
tradition of the occult practices in a city like that. now it's, you're right. Yeah, absolutely. And all the tarot cards.
Nathan (08:43.36)
Walk down Bourbon Street and voodoo may be on display. That's what Cameron's saying. So bring this back though, because it's not just the article you're reading. You've also been towing into Alan Kreider's The Patient Firmament of the Early Church. I think I read it right when I came out and I had talked to Tom about that book also at the time and the idea of Habitas. Say something about this and how that relates into this catechesis process.
Cameron (08:57.197)
Yeah.
Cameron (09:01.144)
Mm-mm. Mm-mm.
Cameron (09:07.074)
Habesauce, I I wanna hear you say a little bit more about it. I mean, I read Alan Kreider's book because of you, continuing to mention it over the years. Yeah.
Nathan (09:15.96)
Harping. I don't have a copy right now. Hey, Seth, you have my copy.
Cameron (09:20.834)
Hey, yeah, return that copy. the, yeah, habitus has to do with the, not just, I mean, obviously habit is in there, but the practices that shape and form you. And so if we think along those lines, we begin to recognize that we are being shaped and formed all the time, for better or for worse. The problem is that many of us,
Nathan (09:22.744)
No.
Nathan (09:33.762)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (09:47.415)
are not very, we're not too intentional about our habitats. So this is why Nathan and I are always prattling on about, you Nathan will ask, do you find your news or does your news find you? If your news finds you, that means you're passively just scrolling along and falling down online trap doors and getting sucked into various conversations and actually being distracted, but also being formed by the discourse, formed by the tone, formed by...
what's going on around you. So, Habitas has to do with those practices that are shaping and forming you, for better or for worse. There's a huge focus among early Christians on the habitus of the church, which is... And the key piece there, I want to hear more from you, Nathan, now, is... But really, was worship was very central to this. Scripture, of course, but also worship habits that were there to help reshape your imagination, restructure your thinking about...
Nathan (10:36.984)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (10:45.25)
who you are, your place in the world, and how you live before your God.
Nathan (10:49.794)
The thing of it is when you say, this is an important, I think everybody who's part of a church, everybody who's a Christian, particularly the people who are in church leadership would all say yes. And what you get, like this is necessary. It's not that we don't know that this is good, it's that we don't know how to do it well. And part of that reason is because it requires a phenomenal amount of time, a phenomenal amount of one-on-one. So think of it like,
Cameron (11:07.758)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Cameron (11:15.918)
.
Nathan (11:17.334)
I mean, this is the challenge for me is this is of the thousand books you've quoted from in the last couple of years that we've been doing this podcast during the same for me. probably one of the most influential people just in the habits of, how you live your life that you don't quote. And I don't quote as much every once in a while they show up our, our moms.
So so for all of the and that's why it's tricky like what's a good book to recommend on the spiritual formation of Cameron Mary McAllister like it's so so Particularly if you've grown up in a Christian home or you're part of a church Historically what you'll see is that actually the catechesis process happens through the family Discipleship happens through the family by and large so
Yes, have you read a lot of interesting things study a lot of interesting things? Absolutely did having Stuart and Mary McAllister as your parents have a profound impact on The the warp and wrinkles of your yes, absolutely. So I think just in the last five years on a personal home church Recognition we're like shoot We're actually not good at this as a church for the people who didn't grow up in it And we have to we've been recalculating or what do you do with somebody who doesn't have?
Cameron (12:14.777)
Hmm. Yeah.
Cameron (12:31.247)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (12:35.87)
any of these ingredients already in the pantry to start baking this Christian dish. So I think that's why this is a new conversation is because we all know this. We see that it requires a phenomenal amount of time and intentionality. And we're retooling quickly to meet the needs of discipling people who have zero Christian background for the first time. For North America, this is kind of a new landscape for a lot of churches.
Cameron (12:42.809)
That's the challenge.
Cameron (13:03.087)
Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah, and that's a measure of our... We are.
Nathan (13:07.702)
But we're going back to what's been normal historically, which is why you should be encouraged by the end of this conversation.
Cameron (13:12.661)
Right. But you're right, that's a measure of how far we've come away from our Christian heritage as a culture. Because what you mentioned took place organically there for many people, because there was a strong, rich Christian tradition carried on in homes, largely. But now, as that begins to fade, and now as we have people coming to our churches, who truly are, it is a ground zero operation, in the sense that they are biblically completely illiterate.
They're babies. They don't have any Christian background. came from homes where there wasn't nobody darkened to the doorway of a church.
Nathan (13:45.081)
Even I would love to know Cameron and maybe the research is out there What percentage of the people who came forward out of Billy Graham crusade had a Christian had Christian grandparents? Or Christian parents so I'm saying it's and I'm not saying God wasn't doing great things through Billy Graham at all But I'm saying he was still speaking to a culture That had like a core code baked into it that just needed to be
Cameron (13:50.563)
Thank
Cameron (13:55.51)
Yes.
Cameron (14:00.719)
Of course he was.
Cameron (14:05.031)
No, there was... yeah. They had the mental... Well, Nathan, they had the mental furniture. mean, Billy Graham, go and listen to his messages. He's using... I mean, he's talking about how we're sinners, we're not good, we need to be saved. That language worked perfectly well with people who were not inside the church. But they knew what it meant. They had the vocabulary, they had the mental furniture.
Nathan (14:26.183)
knew what those words meant.
Cameron (14:31.917)
That is not the case today. We've been warned for a long time, hey, the West is now mission territory. But now we're in a place where that doesn't sound like news. Everybody's, okay, yeah, clearly we are.
Nathan (14:39.072)
Okay, well, all right, so this brings up an important thing because I think anytime we start having these conversations about there being a time period for catechesis, for discipleship, for, I mean, the Diddakee, for crying out loud, was one of the earliest, like one of the oldest non-biblical texts that we have of how the early church was teaching. But here's the pushback, and people will say, well, if you look at the New Testament pattern, people received Jesus and were baptized immediately.
Cameron (15:03.278)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (15:05.814)
So where do you get this waiting period, this discipling period? Where does that go? Don't you just let somebody like, don't you just have somebody lay hands on? They receive the Holy Spirit and then they're good to go. And what some have pointed out who have studied this and said, how do you get this, this discrepancy between the apostolic baptizing, you know, blitz and then the late, the just slightly later early church hesitancy. And the difference is just this difference that we've been pointing out.
is that people say if you look at who is baptized almost instantaneously in the New Testament, a huge percentage of them were Jewish. So they had the entire Old Testament biblical Hebrew scripture, moral code, worship, Yahweh, sexual ethics. mean, the furniture was there to a certain degree. And then even if you add some extras, your Cornelius's, your Ethiopian eunuch, they're referred to as Godfearers or
Cameron (15:54.243)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (16:05.752)
righteous people or they're on their way to the temple to worship like there's the instantaneous nature of the baptisms correspond tightly to the people who already have a sense and an understanding even the the jailer would say what must we do to be saved is using a sense of language there where he has sort of some insider theological metaphysical knowledge on something of the uniqueness of the core foundation of belief so I just want to put that out there to say that I think
What we're seeing happen in modern churches is that transition from a time in which you could baptize little Jimmy because he was growing up in a home where people were going to be speaking and pouring and investing, you know, praying at meals, having family worship in the evenings, discussing scripture. And that that era is over. But excitingly, it takes us back into what we see the first couple of centuries of the church working with. So not impossible, but we're going to have to retool a bit here.
Cameron (16:38.511)
Hmm.
Cameron (16:44.328)
Yeah.
Cameron (17:04.751)
we are. And we're going to have to rethink how we do some of our Christian work. Some of the suggestions that Clint Arnold gives in the paper that are really helpful are what if pastors, for instance, senior pastors give an associate the opportunity to do a four-week series. And then that frees the senior pastor up to teach the new believer's class for four weeks and take an active hand in that. He also says, about, know, grad, you know,
professors like me, seminarians and all that, what if we write one less paper, one less monograph and dedicate some of that time to teaching new believers or producing materials for these new believers? And he points out some of the great, in Origen, Tertullian, Ambrose of Milan, Cyril of Jerusalem, Augustine, all these massive colossal thinkers of the early church spent a lot of time
writing about catechesis and training new believers. They recognize that as an absolutely vital ministry. part of also, yeah, again, to say, to back up and to give the large statement I gave again, look, we want to reach the culture. We want to make a difference. Nathan and I have often said, we need mature, steady Christians in all sectors of life. Well, how do we do that? I'm saying we're not going to do it through more
I mean, yes, always keep writing the books, keep doing the conferences, passion conference. Yes, do the conferences. It's great. But that's not how you're going to reach the culture. You're going to reach the culture by training new believers so that they can... Here's another haunting question, Nathan. We face this one. This is a painful one. Why do so many Christians have such fragile faith? The routine storms of life come. And I mean, I say routine, not callously. I just mean life's hard.
Nathan (18:43.32)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (18:59.67)
Entropy happens.
Cameron (19:00.705)
Yes, entropy happens. There you go. Another t-shirt that needs to be made for Nathan. the, mean, it's a tough world. know, there will be, people do die and relationships do end and leaders do, there are more, there is such a thing as moral failure all the time. It's, I mean, you expect all of this and yet for a lot of us, we step back, those of us who were blessed and sometimes take that blessing for granted, I think to grow up in wonderful Christian homes with.
Nathan (19:04.482)
You
Cameron (19:29.119)
know, moms and dads like we have, which is, can't take that for granted. But we'd look at this and we'd see people say, well, that's it, I'm done. know, these people are a bunch of hypocrites, I'm done, walking away. Or, you know, there's just, there's too much evil and suffering in the world, can't. And again, not callously, but thinking, why, why so, why was it, why did it take this, just life-lifing to...
to pull your faith out from under you. And the reason is, Yeah, well, and you haven't actually been truly trained on how to be a Christian and how to live as, see, the other big question of our culture, Nathan, is it's not anymore, hey, what do you believe as a Christian? Tell me all about the content of your beliefs. Tell me about your beliefs and then defend those beliefs to me. No, it's more, who are you?
Nathan (19:58.905)
because there's no momentum there.
Nathan (20:25.376)
Why do you do what you do?
Cameron (20:26.477)
Yeah, I want to know, and why do you do what you do? Yeah, what do you actually do as a Christian? Because I mean, for a long time there, Nathan, we got into a comfortable zone there, a comfort zone as Christians, where we weren't really doing anything. We were saying, hey, I believe this, and I believe Jesus is Lord. And then we were just doing whatever we wanted to do.
Nathan (20:38.71)
okay.
Nathan (20:46.584)
Let's let's use this then and launch off of this. So let's put some specifics behind that So when you look at I think Justin Martyr in particular is talking about what are the four categories that those coming out of pure paganism? Have to overcome and be Rehabituated and coming into the church. All right, so Power and violence So you can think gladiatorial games blood gore state militarism that
Cameron (20:55.565)
Hmm
Nathan (21:16.246)
So yeah, so power and violence category one number two sexual ethics Number three money and materialism number four the occult and spiritual practices and Interestingly when you look at their writings on the occult and spiritual practices, they were like, well, that's dumb They're like, no that works. We all used to do that We all we use that but it's of the devil and so we don't anymore. So there was no like That's ridiculous. No, we did but we don't anymore
Cameron (21:16.505)
torture.
Cameron (21:28.943)
Thank
Cameron (21:36.59)
Yeah.
Nathan (21:45.517)
But if you just start working through that, power and violence, sexual ethics, money and materialism, and spiritual idolatry, and worship of false gods, blah, blah, blah. But the thing of it is, none of, like, you can't read enough books to solve your problems in those categories.
Cameron (21:48.579)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (21:56.975)
That doesn't have anything to do with us, right?
.
Cameron (22:06.167)
No. Thank you. Say it again. Say it again.
Nathan (22:09.986)
So I'm saying you can't read enough books to solve your problems in those categories that only it'd be like It's it's like thinking you can read a book about ping-pong and then be good at it it you it's it's the it's the so I think of the So, how do you know when their spiritual growth? How do you know when the habit when the training is working? It actually is it shows up in the reflexes? Not in the in the calculated strategy the the version that my grandpa gave me of this
Cameron (22:14.989)
You're not gonna know your way out of it.
Nathan (22:39.128)
He used to visit a man who was in prison because he had been trained in hand-to-hand combat in the military. Got out of the military. Wrong time, wrong place. Come out of a bar late one night. Some guy jumped him and he killed the guy. But it wasn't a, it wasn't premeditated. It's some guy grabbed him from behind in an alley outside of a bar and his body had been carefully through decades of strict training been taught. He didn't think. He just did what his training...
I taught him and you and there are all kinds of applications of that from flying planes to driving cars to most of the things that you're good at in life, you don't incrementally think about you just do because your body and your mind has been trained to respond. What are your, what are your reflexes? and so those are the things where I think the, you become impressed with the character of people when even in difficult situations, their reflexes are Christ like, not because
Cameron (23:34.766)
Mm.
Nathan (23:39.032)
Anyway, you know what I'm saying. It's constant. Job is an example of this. Everybody's like, Job stood up in suffering. What is the one characteristic of Job that we know before all craziness breaks loose in his life? The one thing we're told is that he had a repeated habit of worship.
Cameron (23:41.581)
I think what you're saying.
Cameron (24:00.047)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (24:00.867)
So he had built the flywheel. He had the habit of worship was already baked in and had a lot of momentum to it so that when everything around him fell apart, he still had the core held together. And so I think that's this idea of habitus and of virtue is to say, I want to be better at this. And all of us know that if you want to get better at something is very difficult to train on your own to reach your full potential.
You have to have a community of people around you who but the thing of it is that's that's different in our time is I think there are people who are willing to disciple but you have to show up and want to change And so are you really willing to submit yourself to somebody who says I will teach you these things but it will be painful and difficult And we were thrilled to do that with athletics
Cameron (24:41.668)
Yeah.
Cameron (24:52.867)
And I'm gonna metal.
Nathan (24:55.961)
You go to track and you and you love the coach that makes you feel like passing out and vomiting after every workout, but you can see measurable results that you're getting faster and so you go back for more. It's a little trickier. I think when it comes to virtue into being conformed to the image of Christ because culture does not applaud. If you practice basketball every day for the next 18 years and then join the NBA culture rewards you with fame and fortune. If you.
Cameron (24:55.99)
absolutely.
Nathan (25:24.439)
spend the next 20 of your years studying Christ's likeness and learning what the indwelling of His Holy Spirit is, you do not earn millions of dollars and become famous.
Cameron (25:33.903)
It's interesting, Nathan, because I think everything you've said is so incredibly important about the reflexes, the deeply ingrained habits that just come out automatically. They're automated into your body and your bones. Think about when you're in a car. This is one of the easiest places to point to where those ingrained habits come out. When you're in traffic or when somebody cuts you off or where you... Most of us, deeply ingrained habits of pride, ruthlessness, and an addiction to power and aggression just erupt.
out of our bodies. that's that's a disc...
Nathan (26:05.025)
Mm-hmm. Okay, but where but where does that come from? So my daughter's been reading some of the early early church on Giving up bloodlust basically. I mean you think of you think of the Coliseum as a source of entertainment That was wild like you would pay a ticket. Okay, but this is so we're having this conversation and she's saying wait a second our modern movies and entertainment is
Cameron (26:23.159)
Well, hold on.
Okay, yeah.
Cameron (26:33.271)
Not just our movies, Nathan. If you're scrolling on TikTok, you're good chance you're going to see somebody murdered.
Nathan (26:40.309)
Right, so let the penny drop here for you of saying you instinctively respond based off of your human nature and the things in which you have visually and audibly been taught through repetition, it's a habit, through a repeated pattern, it slowly shapes and forms who are. So you are being discipled is what Cameron's saying. You are part of the catechesis.
Cameron (26:41.709)
and then you just keep scrolling, that's gross.
Cameron (26:46.351)
Thank
Cameron (26:53.741)
And that's your habit right there. Yeah.
Cameron (27:00.535)
It's forming you. Yeah, part of. Absolutely.
Nathan (27:06.913)
You either get to think strategically about what catechesis you want to receive, or you can just trust that the tech CEOs who build the algorithms have your best interest at heart.
Cameron (27:16.335)
Yeah. All right. Well, back to something you said earlier, because I think this is important. So you mentioned that you go to a coach, he puts you through the wringer, but you go back. Yeah. You say, you, sir. May I have another? Because you're getting results. You're right that the culture rewards, our culture rewards ruthless behavior in many ways. It doesn't necessarily reward virtue or pious behavior. I mean, does our culture extol meekness?
Nathan (27:45.421)
Well, I mean, think of all those news articles about the person who turned the other cheek and defused a complicated situation in a diner in New York yesterday.
Cameron (27:46.296)
No.
Cameron (27:51.701)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So on the one hand, that sounds somewhat discouraging to those who, you know, I want to be discipled, am I willing to submit myself? But on the other hand, there is a side here that I think is very appealing and very attractive. And that is when you encounter somebody who is a true, dyed-in-the-wool disciple of Jesus, you encounter the fruits of the Spirit. And one of those is peace. That right now, in our moment, has tremendous...
appeal. People are very attracted to someone who displays deep inward, non-manufactured peace. And also a person who is unhurried. There's not, I don't even want to use the word unhurried. The person who doesn't, so many of us walk around and there's just a very real sense of agitation that comes off of so many of us. I mean, yeah, it's just part of the chronic anxiety of our age, but yet just a sense of deep unrest and agitation. When you meet somebody,
Nathan (28:39.228)
yeah.
Cameron (28:48.793)
who is genuinely restful, not lazy, not slothful, not complacent, restful and content, it will stop you dead in your tracks. And I think Nathan, more more people want that. And by the way, incidentally, I think I wanted to make this point as well. Incidentally, we're both Protestants, in, know, broadly speaking in the Protestant tradition, sorry brother, but the Catholics and the Orthodox have one up.
Nathan (29:02.178)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (29:18.751)
on us here. And I think part of the major appeal to Catholicism and Orthodoxy, both in very different ways though, are these two traditions teach you how to be a Catholic. They teach you how to be an Orthodox. They don't just assume, all right, great. You want to be a member? Sign, sealed and delivered. You're part of the church. Welcome, brother. No, I mean, they're going to push you through at least usually a year, sometimes two years. It's not three years, but you become a catechumenate.
Nathan (29:29.465)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (29:47.983)
in both those traditions and you're not just, they're not instantly going to accept you as a member because they want to make sure you understand and know and live out. Now there's some deficiencies and you know, we all have a lot to learn here, but they're a little closer to that tradition of saying, in order to become a Christian, have to learn to act like a Christian. You got to do stuff. You're not going to read your way into this. And I think
particularly in evangelical world, do have that information saves mindset. But again, all we have to is how's that working out for us? That's my, I yeah.
Nathan (30:20.803)
Well, but the... Well, and basically it's this. I said this three nights ago to a young lady. It's like, when we're talking about baptism, I'm not talking about getting your passport stamped for eternity. We're talking about stepping into a whole new way of life. And so, that's not informational.
that has to be rooted in...
Cameron (30:44.483)
And remember what they did in the early, you'll remember this, in baptisms, they would actually have to turn to one person on their left, I think, not on their right, but on their left. And they would say, do you renounce Satan? And you turn to a person standing as a sort of representative, and you would physically renounce the devil. by the way, they would not baptize, in the early church, they wouldn't baptize anyone until they first exercised them.
Nathan (30:52.94)
you
Nathan (31:08.749)
Yeah, or they fasted for three days beforehand or I mean all kinds of pretty like you are you are committed to this. But here's the other part of that Cameron is that if you if you think about it, I was explaining this as somebody recently also that there was a much tighter sense of of who we are collectively as a church in the early church and who the culture was because you're saying if if you're being brought into the church, then now we are.
Cameron (31:12.407)
Yeah. Crunchy practices. mean, were, yeah, do you, you know, it's a big deal.
Nathan (31:35.707)
financially responsible for and materially responsible for your well-being You're asking a commitment of the congregation to pray for love support and courage So you're asking a lot of a lot of other people in order to I mean, but this would be true Like if you're if you're inviting somebody to join your basketball team You would want to know are they committed to this? Are they are they good at it? Have they learned the rules of the game? And so there's a sense in which the the tightness of the boundary of the definition of the church
Cameron (31:53.303)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (32:04.342)
also plays into the degree to which you feel it's important to say, hey, I want you to know and understand this because the way that I live my life now represents you and the way that you live your life now represents me. It's not about like we have the right bumper stickers and matching t-shirts, but the characteristics of our engagement with reality are now reflective. We represent much more than just ourselves. We're representing Christ and his community.
Cameron (32:29.743)
The number one strategic priority of the church right now should be teaching Christians to be Christians. We do that. So in other words, obey Jesus, teaching Christians to obey Jesus. I like saying it like that better. Teaching Christians to be Christians just is catchy, but teaching Christians to obey Jesus. If we make that our fiendishly focused, single-minded effort, there will be amazing, amazing results from that.
Nathan (32:58.958)
Well, and we think of it as a kids program. this is great when you're eight years old and you learn this. No, actually that probably should just keep on right on trucking with increased intensity for another 80 years.
Cameron (33:01.42)
Mm-hmm, we do.
Cameron (33:10.581)
Absolutely. mean, I think we think about the books that we're writing in these terms. I think we think about the training materials that we're putting together in these terms. I think we think about teaching materials that all of our points of emphasis, think significant portions of them need to be devoted to this, on teaching Christians how to follow Jesus and how to obey Christ with a special emphasis on converts.
teaching converts what it means to be a Christian, forming their habitus.
Nathan (33:47.173)
There you have it. Once again, we've thrown out a whole other set of ideas and given you no tangible practical steps on how to implement this in your own life and in your own community. But we want to plant the seeds here for you to start asking the questions to look into the resources here.
Cameron (33:56.353)
okay, we can leave you a few.
Cameron (34:02.275)
Well, somebody asked me, I talked about this in a talk I gave recently and somebody did ask that question and I said, well, so some of our churches are not, many of our church, most of our churches are not doing this right now. Okay. So we can pray and hope that they will. But in the meantime, the onus is on, so those of us who do have a mature faith in the sense that we're standing on the shoulders of giants in our families or others who have walked with us, the onus is on us then. Okay. So then we,
maybe lead Bible studies. We maybe do something like Nathan Backyard Seminary, where we invite people into our home. We start, now, it takes two to tango. There'll need to be a willingness on the part of others, but if people want help in learning what it means to be a Christian, then we can invite them into our lives and start showing them, you know, leading by example and...
reading the Bibles together, reading our Bibles together, going through the creeds together. I mean, just take that four-fold emphasis from the early church. I mean, you could do better, you know, that's perfect. Yeah, doctrine, virtue, demons. Just go to town on that with somebody. It could be in a really organic way. They just come over to your house or you go meet them somewhere and you just hit the Scripture, doctrine, virtue, demons. And it can, I mean...
Nathan (35:10.394)
Scripture, doctrine, virtue, demons. That's what I remember from your list.
Cameron (35:28.589)
That is a very practical thing to do and it's very tangible and it will help tremendously. And also be in prayer about it behind the scenes. We need to be doing that anyway. We need to be given strength and verve and creativity in all of this and patience and resilience. I think patience more than creativity. Creativity,
Nathan (35:44.666)
You know, but one of
Yeah, well, yeah, if it's spirit inspired, think there's some fun, some things there, but yeah, sorry.
Cameron (35:53.559)
You can be fun with it, but yeah, but just stick with it.
Nathan (35:56.507)
The thing that the freeing part that comes out of this is the ability to say we when it comes to belief. And so you could look at something like in the early church where they would make statements and say like, we don't have sex with people we're not married to and we don't kill our babies. You don't have to hold that as an individual opinion and conviction. You can say we, I mean, you do hold that as an, you do believe it as an individual, but the collective weight on it is like, no, as Christians, we just don't do that.
Cameron (36:01.667)
Yeah.
Cameron (36:10.191)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (36:25.338)
It's an easier, you don't have to defend and to define everything. I think a lot of that has been lost, you know, sort of in people like, I can't believe Christians. You're like, much for 2000 years, that's been a universal, you shouldn't really be surprised that Christians aren't on board with that. So there is a way that when we are formed and shaped in the same ways, there's a larger critical mass there of stability that comes into our own lives because we're, we're not literally just making it up on our own as we go forward. We're, yeah.
Cameron (36:49.763)
You're not a lone ranger. Yeah, you're not a lone ranger. You don't make it up as you go along. That's very American, that's American habitus, if ever there was one. It's you making it up on as you go. It's not authentic unless you take full ownership and kind of customize it for yourself. No, no, no, no, no. We're gonna be back to this topic. We gotta, because it's good stuff. But in the meantime, you've been listening to Thinking Out Loud.
Nathan (36:59.31)
Better ego.
Nathan (37:07.866)
I think we'll be back to this topic, Cameron.
Cameron (37:17.305)
podcast where we think out loud about current events, catechesis and Christian hope.
Nathan (37:23.514)
If you enjoy this type of content or find it helpful, you can like it, you can share it, you can subscribe. And if you want to support the fact that Cameron and I are loose somewhere in this world teaching somebody something about being a Christian, you can support that work by going to www.toltogether.com. Thanks so much.