The New Horror: Why Horror Movies Are Getting More Psychological

Cameron (00:00.906)

Yellow. Welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co host, Cameron McAllister.

Nathan (00:05.215)

And I'm your co-host, Nathan Rittenhouse.

Cameron (00:07.192)

'Tis spooky season, so it's a tradition around these parts. Yeah, here we go again. Nathan always looks forward to this this particular episode. It's the episode where I get to run free and talk about all things horror and

Nathan (00:09.851)

Here we go again.

Nathan (00:14.909)

Ha ha ha.

Nathan (00:20.574)

And I just throw little yellow flags all along the all along that run. But anyway, let's go.

Cameron (00:24.077)

Yes.

Well it's it's an interesting moment for horror. So I think in the past we've we've done episodes in which I try, often unsuccessfully, to perhaps defend the value of horror. I don't want to do that in today's episode.

Nathan (00:39.9)

You could go back and listen to the last eight years of Halloween episodes if you're feeling left out.

Cameron (00:44.418)

I'll just consude my concede my multiple losses to Brother Rittenhouse over here and proceed along my merry way. And what I want to do is talk about the shape of of horror right now, what's going on in particular. So it's really interesting from a number of different standpoints. The question that occurs to me, Nathan, first of all, is horror does broadly speaking, it does one of two things. It scares you or it shocks you or grosses you out. It's one of those two. Stephen King

Nathan (01:13.022)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (01:14.4)

himself has said, you know, Stephen King's certainly a master of horror today, however you however you slice and dice it. See what I did there. But he says, I recognize fear as the as the finest human emotion, but if I can't scare you, I will go for the gross out. The problem as I see it right now, Nathan, is how do you gross people out in today's moment? Granted, there are always individual thresholds and people who are squeamish, but overall, we're in a cultural moment

When I would say it's very difficult to shock anybody. I mean, if you're if you're scrolling on social media, cer especially certain platforms, you're gonna come across human beings dying on a daily basis. So how does horror fit in there? How's it gonna I mean, I just don't see it shocking anybody.

Nathan (02:05.947)

Yeah, no, y you ha you have an answer to this. So I th I think we should I think we should head head head in that direction. But it is by and large the case, I think, that when everything is cranked up to ten in every category, just in our routine lives and what we see, yeah, it's gonna be hard to surprise or shock or gross people out with a movie, with a film, with I mean, still you can get a well s look hang on a second. Jump scares don't that's not fair.

Cameron (02:08.717)

Yeah, sure.

Cameron (02:35.404)

Mm-hmm. No. So Yeah.

Nathan (02:35.997)

Fear. so so ca so being being shocked, being surprised, being I mean we might have to discuss what it means to be horrified by something. 'cause 'cause even disgust 'cause even disgust isn't we were butchering chickens the other day with the neighbors and somebody was talking about eating chicken livers and I like pulled some out of a chicken. I like, what if I just ate this right now? And they're like, you know, eating raw chicken liver. You know, it it's a little bit of a like nobody was scared, but it's like he's

Cameron (02:47.468)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, we can do that.

Nathan (03:05.797)

I d I did not eat the raw chicken livers straight out of the chicken, just to be clear. But like that type of thing that is gross, I I I think that's embedded within us. Like a jump scare works because you should jump when something surprises you because it might be dangerous. You shouldn't eat raw chicken livers, probably. yeah. Disclaimer for the legal credits. Well y of things that are gross that you know, this bacteria, this virus, if you d if you perform these behaviors could. So there's a self preservation.

element in some of that, but it it feels moderated in a way that isn't I w I wouldn't say those are things that cause me fear.

Cameron (03:44.695)

No, so let me make some preliminary remarks. I would define horror as a an imitation that produces the emotions of fear and disgust. And I'm following Aristotle here. He defines tragedy

Nathan (03:59.345)

interesting. You don't you don't put loss of control there?

Cameron (04:02.434)

No. Well loss of control would file you file that under fear.

Nathan (04:06.567)

Okay, so so that that's I I'm glad I asked that question. So we're distinguishing between fear and horror here, very specifically.

Cameron (04:13.314)

Yes, so like I said earlier, horror can do one of two things. So it causes it can cause just disgust and revulsion. I would count that as horror. Now, by far the harder thing to do is to scare. And to scare on a deep level is even harder. So let's bring in the the the good old fashioned jump scare. Now I like a jump scare just as much as the next person. Now, not everybody does. So I I like this genre. I do like jump scares, but

They're relative they're they're cheap in the sense that they're pretty superficial. If now they're superficial in the sense that they they happen real quickly, you jump and then the fear is gone immediately. It's kind of like wasabi sauce. You get that punch in the nose and then it's gone. That's the way the the harder thing to do is to provide a lasting, lingering sense of fear or or dread. But a a really well executed

Nathan (04:53.405)

Yeah.

Cameron (05:08.628)

No pun intended jump scare is still it takes a lot of skill to pull that off, but it's a it's more of a technical feat. If you can really scare somebody on a deep level, I would call that artistic. But no, we could get lost in the weeds on this particular subject, but I can let me give you one specific example. The film, the original film, The Haunting, Robert Weiss's film, this came out in the early 60s. This is an adaptation of Shirley Jackson's The Haunting of Hill House, which

would be one of the finest haunted house stories ever ever written. That film is very frightening. And fear is a little bit subjective too. That's another footnote there, Nathan. Different people are scared by different things. But by overwhelming consensus over the years since it was released, this film has it's it's really stood the test of time. And it I rewatched it recently. It really is a frightening film. You see absolutely nothing in it and there's there's no visible monster.

Nathan (05:47.185)

Yeah, okay.

Cameron (06:07.552)

It's just such a psychologically menacing film. So in this particular film, it's not so much that the house is haunted. It's more as you reach the end that the house itself is alive and wants to devour the most vulnerable people investigating it. And the most vulnerable person happens to be somebody who feels very lonely and very unsure of who she is. And so there's enough

There's enough vulnerability in her mind and her heart for this house to worm its way into her. And it's just very haunting in the best sense of that word. And it really is frightening. But it pulls this all off through cy emotional depth, psychological complexity. It's a very skillfully made story. And it's it's much harder to do that than it is to make some garden variety slasher or something that's just really, really gross.

Nathan (07:00.827)

Yeah, I can make I can send cam pictures I sometimes do send camera pictures that are gross. That takes no artistic skill whatsoever.

Cameron (07:08.886)

Right. So I think one of those pictures should be Nathan's future author photo for for a book project. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Nathan (07:15.933)

There w there there was a time where I butchered a pig slightly after one of the episodes we did on horror and I sent Cameron a picture saying this is what true blood and guts look like. But yeah. Anyway.

Cameron (07:25.484)

Yes. And it's it's a level of blood and guts that I I probably will never know. And I'm I'm I'm okay with that. So are strange They are. They are. They are changing. So and the face of horror is a changing a little bit. It goes in cycles, but right now we've arrived at a juncture where horror has turned a lot more existential. And so what I said earlier is that it's very hard to shock people nowadays because we're we're at a pretty decadent phase in our culture. And so what

Nathan (07:29.895)

The y anyway, okay. So things are the times they are the times they are are changing. That's where we're going here.

Cameron (07:53.111)

What's a horror film to do when nothing's shocking? Well, it goes existential. Or you you've got to get more skilled with it. So two films in particular, I just want to highlight that were very notable because A, they came from two very young filmmakers who made their way from YouTube. And B, they drew lots of people, including younger people in their twenties, to theaters.

Those two films are Backrooms and Obsession. They're both very different films in significant ways, by the way. But both of them share a kind of psychological depth and also a subtlety that is really remarkable. They're not all about blood and guts and gore. They are much more about deep fright and sense of isolation. And they're both very sad in different ways, too. They're very the these are films.

that have mental illness at the center of their stories. Both of them do in their different ways. And so there's a real sadness and a loneliness to both of them, which I think is quite reflective of our moment.

Nathan (09:01.373)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (09:06.235)

Yeah yeah, I so but is that horror or is that just confusion and fear?

Cameron (09:14.7)

Well, it's no, it's horror in the sense that both films are indisputably dealing with monstrous things and scenarios that take us beyond. And both films do by the way, both films do get violent. So if you're if you're hearing me and you think, maybe I can go watch these two real, real subtle excursions. Yeah, they they are somewhat subtle, but they do have their share of of bloodshed in each of them. But the bloodshed is not center stage in the way that it would be

in a f in a film anything in the Saw franchise, for instance, or if you for those who are aware, the Terrifier films with Art the Clown, those are films in which the destruction of human bodies is center stage. That is not the case at all with with either Obsession or Backrooms. These are films that have a lot of emotional depth. Yeah.

Nathan (10:00.328)

Do you is is some of this

Is some of this like there are things really worth being physically scared of. Is the idea of going and watching something like this in a theater. I can think of all like, for example, my brother one of my brothers and I had a very close call with a venomous snake last week. I mean, like, very close. And it was one of those things we both reacted pretty quickly and it all worked out and it ended with a conversation of like what would you what would have happened if that thing would have landed in my lap? Kind of thing. Copperhead, kayaking sp

Cameron (10:22.368)

wow.

Cameron (10:31.896)

Wait, what kind of snake?

Nathan (10:35.951)

Almost yeah, it was it was it was a whole that's a whole podcast in itself of unlikely things. But that was one of those things where you're like in a situation where quick reflex like it is a s like if you want the jump scare and you have to adapt appropriately. so like okay, that was over and onward we went. I don't need to go to a theater to have that experience. Like I've y so so I'm saying I i in my I've

Cameron (10:40.323)

Mm.

Cameron (11:02.06)

Right, okay.

Nathan (11:07.123)

e so so if if if actual physical danger and grossness has been deleted from our cultural inventory of actual probable experiences, there there are some places in the world where getting killed from by somebody with a machete is a real possibility and therefore isn't passe anymore as a form of something to be afraid of.

Some of what you're talking about here in this existential shift of fear and horror is the byproduct of us living in a extremely safe I know it sounds weird to say that in light of the news, but historically speaking, the most protective, safe culture ever. And so we almost need something new to be scared of because the old things that we were frequently scared of have to some degree been suppressed.

Cameron (11:42.37)

Yes.

Cameron (11:59.983)

So that gets to some of my deeper theory of of horror. Horror is a is a very modern genre and it shows up around and I'm I'm not gonna get lost in the weeds on what how we precisely date the beginning of horror, but what's uncontroversial is that it shows up around the romantic period. All right. The first major full fledged probably horror novel is Frankenstein, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein.

Nathan (12:26.865)

Okay.

Cameron (12:27.171)

So think of that as the shadow side of ro of romanticism, right? She's she's married to Lord wait, no, no, she's married to Shelley. Right. She's married to Percy Vish Shelley. So and that's a picture of of course Frankenstein has a lot to say to us in our moment. It's a picture of human human beings trying to play God, technological overreach, all that sort of thing. But what I wanted to s what I want to say there, Nathan, is what you're s what you're pointing out is actually quite profound.

In the past and in the not so diff distant past, it was taken for granted that evil exists. We're we're dealing with evil. Yes. It's a it's a factor in human life. You can go to of course Greek myth and you have you have instances of evil, you have an underworld, you have all of that. But it doesn't take center stage until we start seeing modernism rear its head, until we start maybe explaining evil away. When we start to do that

We find that we need monsters. Not because we love monsters, but because we need them. We need Satan, to borrow an argument from Andrew Delbanco. We need we need that to make sense of human experience. Because if we if we lose evil as a serious category, not just evil as you know, if you mean evil, if by evil you just mean various social ills, that's not going to cut it. If you lose evil in the full sense,

Nathan (13:27.747)

Mm, mm-hmm.

Cameron (13:53.218)

You are not able to make sense of human life as you're seeing it and human experience. So horror emerges when we're losing a serious conception of evil. And it gives to us a way of making sense of that experience that we I don't think we needed as much in the past.

Nathan (14:10.303)

So okay, hang on. So let's that's that's fascinating. How far down does that run? So let's talk about the the neighborhood trick-or-treating Halloween. Is is there a is there a broader utility to trick-or-treating than just candy and costumes? Is i is is that like the play version of this or

Let's let's let's link some of what you're talking about here at the communal structural metaphysical level down into the actual practices that we associate with Halloween.

Cameron (14:45.015)

Well, I trick or treating, I mean, I'm gonna sound very much like a Durkheimian or or some sociologist here, but trick or treating is gonna play a similar role. I I would wanna use the word festival that that festival applies or carnival, meaning you have certain you have certain events in in a culture and in during those during that that time there's a little bit of controlled lawlessness that happens. or or celebration. You know, in

Classical kind of medieval festivals, what would happen is peasants would be able to dress up in the garb of royalty occasionally. There would be a reversal of roles, and you get to act out some of what's in your system. There are films, of course, that play with this. I think the most obvious and very clunky and clumsy example in recent years would be the Purge movies. The idea of those films is, you know, you have the laws of the land are suspended for a single night. So you can get you can purge your system of all the inherent mayhem.

So but that idea, you're gonna find that throughout history and throughout different cultures. I think Halloween plays into that whole that whole kind of that that effort to r be something you are, release yeah, release some of those chaotic chaotic energies. Now is this a noble thing necessarily? No, but it's actually a pretty widespread thing. It's not, as I've just said, it's not limited at all to to Halloween. But

Nathan (15:58.612)

Put on the mask and be something you aren't and pretend and

Cameron (16:12.727)

If I can back up a second even more, Nathan, I think throw in some other helpful con context that that will I think answer your question as well. We are we actually we're not I'm not arguing for the value of horror, but I'm giving a lot of context here. But and I'm I have mentioned this in in episodes of the past, but a very helpful essay on this is Edmund Burke's. I don't his his full title is gonna escape me. It's a very long. It was back when, you know, basically every

Every every idea and every line of the you know, of thought is is outlined in a title. But it was it it's his enquiry into the sublime. And what he's talking about, so your experience with the copperhead isn't isn't quite gonna gonna get you what to where Burke is is gesturing because he says basically that one of the most strong emotions that you can have is is the feeling of self preservation, or if you're in imminent danger. It's so overwhelming and so powerful. So I mean, let's say

Nathan (16:48.227)

Yeah.

Cameron (17:12.321)

you're in you're in the kayak and the co copperhead's in there with you and you notice it. Or if you look up and there's a grizzly bear very close to you. So or or you're slipping on on the edge of a precipice and you're and you're starting to go down. In those moments there is you're experiencing some of the most powerful emotional responses a person can experience. It's not a pleasurable experience in any meaningful sense of the term. Because one of the big questions with horror, it's the same question we have with tragedy, is why why do people enjoy this stuff?

Are they just maniacs? Are they just masochists? Why do people like, you know, King Lear or a movie like Manchester by the Sea or Blue Valentine? And I think horror raises that same question. Why do people enjoy this? What's wrong with you?

Nathan (17:55.922)

Yeah, I don't so I can ask those questions.

Cameron (17:58.018)

Right, and plenty of and a lot of people don't like tragedy and a lot of people don't like horror, but many, many, many people do. In fact, horror right now is one of the most bankable, popular genres in the world. Are all of these people maniacs? I don't think they are. So what Bur Right. And so what Edmund Burke is gonna say here is the sublime, you're able to enjoy the sublime, that sense of human smallness, that sense of a a real frisson of

Nathan (18:12.295)

And they can't all just be bored.

Cameron (18:25.677)

danger and something that could absolutely obliterate you and destroy you. You're able to enjoy it when you can observe it from a distance. So maybe from a safe distance you you get to see a tiger roaming around and you get to see the fearful symmetry in motion. Or you get to you climb onto a roller coaster. Yeah, obviously we've had some pretty dark news regarding a roller coaster in my neck of the woods lately. But you you climb onto a roller coaster, you you climb

Go skydiving, you go bungee jumping, you climb a mountain, you do these things where you you're you're touching the sublime, or you watch a horror movie from the safety of your couch. You're not in actual any actual real imminent danger when you're reading a horror novel or watching a horror movie. You may experience fear, but that fear can be pleasurable because you're not in survival mode.

Nathan (19:16.349)

Hmm.

Cameron (19:17.017)

So that's what and that's what Burke is gonna say. Now, Burke doesn't have in mind, obviously, somebody watching Obsession or Backrooms, but what he says applies really well to what d watching horror films or reading or reading it or whatever it is, or enjoying being scared up to a point. You're doing it from the safety of your couch. You have a safety harness that comes down, so to speak.

Nathan (19:42.333)

Trying to process this for myself personally in that I can think of physical versions of that, but no digital versions of that.

Cameron (19:50.66)

Well, Nathan, you do things that are, to my mind, way scarier than anything I read about or in in the in the immediate sense. You're you you

Nathan (19:58.462)

But but there's there still is that like pushing things just to the limit. So so what's the I mean, 'cause 'cause there's the there's the there's the addictive adrenaline junky side of this, of I have to keep jumping off something higher and higher. So there's

Cameron (20:02.882)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Cameron (20:09.029)

yeah, people Well yeah so there was a there's a recent documentary on on Dean Potter who was was a he was a he was a free solo climber and then he got into bass jumping and it was called the Dark Wizard and what happened was I mean he he became addicted to the thrill of almost dying and eventually it it happened. And so that yeah, that's a very real thing. People do get addicted to that feeling.

Nathan (20:35.623)

Ooh, so so maybe maybe my problem is I can't empathize with people in film. Maybe I'm a psychopath.

Cameron (20:38.489)

Yeah.

Cameron (20:43.821)

Really? No, that wouldn't make you a psychopath necessarily. I would I would guess that it's not re well, you look at it and you just there's just not real, not real, not real ringing in your ears, maybe.

Nathan (20:46.961)

Th or just some kind of s sociological

Nathan (20:56.435)

Perhaps. Yeah, I don't know. Anyway, psychological therapy for Nathan later. Where we're going it's actually quite a delightful way to live, truth be told. the cause I cause I think we want to get back around to something that then we could keep talking about the the the train of thought we're on, but to bring this back around, you're saying that the new the new horror is existential. Let's get specific just a little bit on that because I think this will resonate with people who are

Cameron (21:19.055)

Mm-hmm. Yes, very much so. Yep.

Sure. Right. So there was a recent article with a really catchy headline basically saying Grief is the new killer in the woods. And it was talking now, this was written, I think, around 2018. So that was a while ago. So it used to be not so long ago in the heyday of slasher films from the seventies and through the eighties, that you were running away from a literal killer or monster stalking you with a machete or whatever it was. But

Nathan (21:25.703)

watching the world go by and saying, What are we seeing here?

Cameron (21:52.932)

When you started to watch some of these newer horror films, it turned out that really what was what was going on was people were in deep grief and they were dealing with trauma. Now, I I think if you back up a little bit, Nathan, this isn't very surprising at all. After all, we are living in the age of the therapeutic. Everybody everybody's speaking in psychological language and psychological terms all the time. We have s well right. We have a lot of anxiety about

Nathan (22:15.261)

So it's psychological thriller is now more horrifying than the

Cameron (22:21.869)

Our social lives. So part of what let me get real specific, Obsession. Part of what was really interesting to me about Session Obsession, I I really thought it was a terrific film. And I've I've been a fan of Curry Barker, the director, for a while. He does a lot of sketch comedy and he does a lot of horror stuff on YouTube. I've I've thought his stuff was great for years. So it was r it was also it's really gratifying to see these young filmmakers in there and doing what young filmmakers do. Interesting new stuff and making films that actually really do.

capture the feeling of our moment, even if it is really sad. And I I did think Obsession has moments of kind of dark humor, but I did find it overall to be a really sad movie. And that was fitting too. But part of what what really struck me about Obsession was that to a significant degree this is a cringe horror film. A lot of yes, so a lot of the horror in it happened. So just to give you if you haven't heard a boy likes a girl, they're good friends.

Nathan (23:11.195)

Yeah.

Cameron (23:20.707)

This insufferable guy cannot work up the courage to just tell her how he feels. And there's one scene where you really just you want to you just you get mad at him because she's saying, look, if you want to say something, say it right now. And he just he just can't work up the courage to do it. And so he buys this, you know, this kind of wishing stick from a pagan shop and makes a makes a wish. I, you know, I wish Nikki.

would be obsessed with me and only me or something like that and breaks the breaks the stick. And of course it's it's one of those monkeys paw kind of stories or be careful what you wish for. So she becomes obsessed with him and it's it's not the fun, you know, ponies and rainbows vision that he thought it would be. But also it's really moving in certain in certain scenes because what it shows is that she loses herself. She loses her own agency because of this and ends up, you know, nobody gets what they want in short. But

Part of the horror in the in the movie happens in social settings when they're at a party or something and she behaves in ways that are just completely just they're social disasters. And it's and you just sit there watching it and you go, my gosh. And it's it's a very in that sense, it's very Gen Z. It's all about embarrassment. I mean, that's a very unique kind of horror.

Nathan (24:30.715)

Okay, so yeah.

Well, so I'm saying if if you just listen to the summary you gave and then we back up fifteen years and somebody heard you describe that plot line, they would say that is the dumbest horror movie you could pop like, that doesn't even count as a

Cameron (24:42.947)

Yeah. Yes.

Yep. But it works now because we live in a world when so many people are terrified of real human connection. And so that's why I found the movie so poignant and so moving and so sad. And and that also just watching it now, nobody would think, that's stupid. I mean, it it works. It works because it it really reflects our social scene, especially for younger people. So that's that's a powerful thing.

Nathan (24:55.633)

There you go.

Cameron (25:16.749)

And I do think I'm not arguing for the value of horror here, I but I would submit to you that it's it's valuable as a reflection of our moment. It's valuable as a work of art that considers part of the question of what it means to be human right now in this moment. So all of that is as operative there. But yeah, it's not about somebody chasing you with a machete in the woods. It's really not. This is about how horrifying it is to tell people how you feel. Isn't it? I mean I

Nathan (25:45.363)

This is this is a this is a tragedy.

Cameron (25:45.655)

I think that's remarkable.

Cameron (25:49.954)

It is. No, it really is. And it's very moving and it's but it's also really cl clever because you just think, yeah, I mean that is the the literally the notion of telling somebody how you feel is this horrifying. Man, that says a lot.

Nathan (26:09.821)

Well, thank you for suffering through that for us. Actually you enjoyed it. But it sounds I I I am I am afraid of a movie that even sounds like that. That's where my horror lies of the the the of the the watching such thing. The but it is really I think it's you know, you and I talked a lot about things like Jordan Peterson's book, Twelve Rules for Life, where when you look at him you're like, This is the dumbest list of things. Anybody who had a remotely stable community or relationship with their father would find this completely

Cameron (26:13.261)

I enjoyed it. Sorry.

Cameron (26:19.715)

The horror at the idea of watching such a thing.

Nathan (26:40.347)

sophomoric and you're like, wait, it's a best seller. So it's not interesting just in what it is, it's interesting in what it highlights about the society and the culture that we live in. And I think the analysis that you're doing of these films functions in a similar way. You can enjoy them for the whatever reason you enjoy them for, but then they also are the popularity of them says something about the dynamic and the critique of the world in which we live that I'm often oblivious to.

So thanks for looking over the whatever it is you looked over there to see that.

Cameron (27:13.391)

You know, I'm always always happy to do that. And sorry I didn't say too much about backrooms. Perhaps we can revisit that as we're closer to Halloween or something like that. I also thought that was a an interesting film as well. But in the meantime, you've been listening to or suffering through Thinking Out Loud. This is a podcast where you think out loud about current events and Christian hope and horror occasionally as well. Hey, if you like this, well please do like it. As in, you know, like, share, and subscribe. Do something about it and tell someone about it. And also

If you would like to support us financially, you can do that by going to www.toltogether.com.