Should Christians Watch Death Videos? Morbid Curiosity, Public Executions & Christian Ethics

Nathan (00:00.875)

Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co host Nathan Rittenhouse.

Cameron (00:04.396)

And I'm your co host, Cameron McAllister.

Nathan (00:08.305)

And today we want to talk about witnessing, viewing, watching, public deaths. it it seems to me there are a number of a lot of different angles to this. So we'll have to we'll have to pull this apart and look at what makes some of these differences. so one, I mean, you're in Georgia, one that's you know caught your attention is tragic roller coaster death. so and there's video of that. You have a man climbing into a tiger enclosure in the UK.

in being killed. some of the th there'll be there'll be yeah we'll want to take these apart look at them and and what's different about them. And then you have the announcement of the public execution by firing squad of Nadal Hassan, who was the mass shooter at Fort Hood several years ago. and so that's being said that that'll be live streamed so and everybody can watch his execution by firing squad, which is a yeah, doesn't doesn't frequently happen.

and at the same time, let's add in the story of a lady who was they tried to kill by lethal injection twice. and and that's actually just in a longer stream of failures at lethal injection, execution, and the death penalty. So here we have a a wide range of accidental death as publicly viewed. sort of maybe intentional public death with a tiger. I don't we don't I don't know the story there. somebody who's

death is going to be executed by fire and squad and somebody who has attempted to be lethal yeah, lethally euthanized by euthanized? That's not the right word. Executed by lethal injection. and the question that comes out of this, Cameron, are there are many, but one of them is is like, how should we as Christians think about, feel about, talk about, discuss, w discuss where should our hearts be when we're

You you had mentioned to me that you found the footage of the guy on the on the roller coaster and you felt bad about finding it. Tell t tell tell me a little bit more about your pontifications there.

Cameron (02:08.525)

Yes.

Cameron (02:14.392)

Well, I mean, you don't want to I mean, yes, my conscience was was troubled by it. So I think there are a couple of very ennoble motivations there. I think for most of us, we could say, Well, I want to know what happened. I want to understand this better, but really I I would say morbid curiosity is taking the lead there. There are social media sites that basically function like the dark web. And so you know as soon as reports leak that some catastrophic

ride failure has happened or somebody's climbed into a tiger enclosure or an alligator has attacked somebody, you know that if there is any footage, you're gonna find it very quickly. So there's there's the question of can you do it? Yeah, for the most part you you can. It's readily available. Should you do it or ought you to do it? And if you are doing it, why are you doing it? Those are really important questions here.

Nathan (03:04.033)

Well hang hang on second. Yeah

Nathan (03:11.147)

We should have done some of some homework here because this is a category that I haven't read in is were there Christians that were writing about public hangings? So you you look at some of the famous trials, say in London, at some point where you'd have five to ten thousand people come out to see a public hanging, or in the United States, every country kind of has their own version of this, where it is almost a picnic festival kind of thing that you went to to a to a public execution. the only reason I bring that up is because the the

The instances that you just mentioned all rely on, hey, somebody else was on that roller coaster with a phone, somebody was at the zoo with a phone. so there's there's footage of it. So even if we 'cause so I c there's a way in which I don't want to make this about technology, I guess is what I'm saying, and that humans have always had d do you show up to the execution as a as a Christian?

Cameron (03:55.032)

No, but

Cameron (04:01.24)

So people have written about this. The public lynchings or or hangings, or that's a that's an important question, and I'd have to do some research there. But I can tell you, because I wrote this book on horror with Phil Talon. Phil Talon, my co author, came up with a very fan fascinating quote from Augustine. And maybe if I dig for a second and pull up my manuscript.

I'll find the precise quote. But basically he talks about why do why do we s you know, what is it that draws us to stare at a mangled corpse? That's the specific example he gives. He also Augustine also has a lot to say about gladiatorial games. And he talks in particular, he's a specific example about a friend of his who was a Christian, who his conscience was troubled, and he went, covered his eyes, but then at the last moment curiosity overcame this friend. And so he looks

And then it talks about how his his conscience was seared. So you have you do have people you have a church father like Augustine writing about public executions and reflecting on it ethically. So there is there is a tradition of it within within the Christian world for s for certain.

Nathan (05:11.093)

Well yeah, well well but we can go even farther back and think about the crucifixion of Jesus. Here you gu have you know, have a guy nailed naked on a pole. and a obviously there's a there are crowds passing by and people coming to look at this. So yeah, all all that to say, and maybe we'll get more into some of the details there, is that this is a human condition. This isn't a modern technologically enabled now th maybe we can see more of it.

Cameron (05:37.996)

Well no, can I can I point in can I

Nathan (05:38.773)

But this is something that there's a principle here rather than a tech technological capacity, yeah.

Cameron (05:43.438)

Well, let me point out some some interesting differences though that I think are important here. It is it is more easy than ever now. Well, so let's just convenience and safety. So in the past, the the actual you had to actually go to a place, a site of execution. You had to be present in a crowd. So that it was a whole lot more intentional some more work that went into it. This is a little bit, this is not dissimilar in to my mind.

Of the access that we have to pornography these days. Now, pornography is a perennial human problem, but now the internet has made anonymity much more possible. It's just sheer ease and convenience. We can consume it on a mass scale in a way that we never could before. And the same principle is true here. You can watch this on your living room couch or wherever you are just as you're scrolling. And that's a that tends to bring in a whole nother conversation.

Nathan (06:17.941)

Mm, mm-hmm.

Cameron (06:41.23)

casual dimension to all of this, it tends to I think this is a difference in degree, not in kind, but it tends to in in degree increase in us the assumption that this is this is a form of entertainment. So I think this, I think all that to say, I think what the the ease and the convenience with which we consume this stuff is extremely destructive. And which was one one of the reasons why

I walked away with a firm resolve, never again. That that's it. Because it's just yeah.

Nathan (07:15.895)

Well, and and and there's another difference here. There's another difference here is let's say that you make plans to go to a public hanging, you journey there, you do, you're with the crowd, it's a communal event, you're processing it with other people, and then you have to walk or ride your horse home. That's different than seeing a thirty second clip and then an old spice ad. And then off to the you like like, you know, it's there's there's something very different

Cameron (07:37.408)

Right. Yep. The moral gravity of of what you've just yeah, the the gravity of what you've just seen is completely undermined now by its juxtaposition with an ad. And it just that works at that works on you on a subconscious level. And the takeaway, I mean, again, this we sound like Neil Postman here. Neil Postman made a similar point in amusing ourselves to death with with regard to the news.

you might have news of some catastrophic event or some, you know, horrible wartime crime or atrocity, and then cut to commercial and now it's a tampon ad. And it just completely undermines the moral seriousness of what you've just seen and on a on a largely a completely unspoken basis, it's just working on you on the level of imagination and fantasy. And which which is to say it's s slipping past your watchful dragons and just going straight to work.

Nathan (08:19.402)

Right. Yeah.

Cameron (08:37.044)

on your deeper view of reality. Pretty n not neutral stuff at all.

Nathan (08:40.946)

One of the thing well, and one of the things that you've said that's profound in the last year or so on the on the podcast is that in our technological usage, particularly in our internet usage, oftentimes we're very easy we we can convince ourselves that we're doing something for information when really we're doing it for entertainment. It's not education, it's it's entertainment. And so we think we're going with this idea that, it's just for me to be better informed. But

really it's entertainment. So let me let me lay out well, you go first, yeah.

Cameron (09:11.532)

Let me yeah, let me put it this way. Well

Well just wanted ask a question. I mean, if there is footage of a body being destroyed in some different, you know, whatever manner, why would you if you're just a regular normal citizen, you have nothing to do with that particular person there, a stranger to you, you're not in law enforcement, you're not an investigator, what possible reason could you have for for viewing that footage? Wha why do you need to see this body being destroyed? Right.

Nathan (09:40.987)

I can tell you.

Okay. So so I I think we can come up with a couple answers to that that aren't great. So, okay. one let's go the entertainment route. And it's also true like one of the the categorical differences, so you talked about it coming to you, and it's I remember my grandpa saying that, you know, nineteen forties, you had to go looking for trouble and now in the digital age, trouble can come looking for you. You said to me, Cameron, that you didn't

Cameron (09:49.986)

Yeah.

Nathan (10:11.252)

You didn't try to see the guy in the tiger enclosure. It just showed up in your algorithm. You know, like so it it's it's foisted upon you at at some point there. so so that's a difference. The other part of this that's kind of odd too is that I think you always had the portrayal of human death in entertainment. So you think about a play, all the way back through there were executions, people were air quotes beheaded. you know, so so death was represented in entertainment.

Our modern entertainment is a little more well no, a whole lot more realistic. in its so so so our our our distinction between a fake death and an actual death I think is a very blurred category for most modern humans.

Cameron (10:56.503)

Yes, that's a really good point.

Cameron (11:01.058)

Well, so a couple of really interesting that's a very interesting point to bring up. So I want to bring in some just some some pr perspectives from literature here to help us see this a little bit more clearly. So the the the the really accomplished Greek playwrights, particularly the the plays that would get really violent were the tragedies. You know, whether it involved human sacrifice or or Oedipus gouging out his own eyes. But these

Nathan (11:23.286)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (11:28.556)

The most accomplished among these, these people, Euripides or Soph Sophocles, had the quote obscenity take place offstage because they believed that if you focused on the really just the carnage, it would become a distraction. And so they kept it offstage. Now that said, not everybody kept everything off sta off stage. Shakespeare didn't cat keep everything offstage. Some of you, you may be familiar with Shakespeare's

goriest, most bloody play, and it's called Titus Andronicus. And I mean, it's like, it's like a slasher. It's incredibly violent and bloody, and and the blood is not kept off stage. Now it's not generally considered one of his greatest plays. I'm only bringing that up here, Nathan, to say that violence, you know, graphically graphic violence portrayed in in a play or on stage is nothing new. It's been happening for a long time. And also there are a lot of really crude

plays that were staged, you know, involving sexual stuff and all of it. None of that's new. But what you're pointing out here is that you have we have a degree of some of the the deaths that are portrayed now, the sophistication of the special effects, the subtlety of them is so powerful that they look virtually indistinguishable indistinguishable from an actual human perishing on camera. I've had another friend who's pointed that out to me

Nathan (12:30.874)

yeah, but e if

Cameron (12:55.148)

before as well. And that tends to blur the line between fiction and reality. And since we're already used to scrolling and seeing actual human deaths on a fairly routine basis, this is leading to a kind of desensitivization that is, I would say I'm going to call this new. I'd say this is new. So that's also an important aspect of how we view, yeah.

Nathan (13:18.312)

Okay. All right. So so let's let me I was making a list I was making a list earlier and got distracted of of reasons

Nathan (13:28.022)

Yeah, let me let me work on my list a little bit more here and get you to critique it. So you could do it for entertainment. You could do it for revenge, a sense of justice. So I I think that's why family members are often invited to the execution of people who are being yeah, killed by the state for a crime that they've committed, that there's a sense of closure that this brings, that I watched the person died who caused my loved one to die. so revenge is there. you could also

I I think there's a sense of morals so the guy the tiger, I that probably elicits some sort of moral superiority or like you play stupid games, you find out, you know, like you there's a there's a sense of like, well that was dumb, what did you think would happen? It's a it's a re it's a it's a reaffirmation of the way that you think the world works. So it's it's kinda like man climbs in tiger cage, gets eaten by a tiger. okay. I I knew so it's it's adding another

Cameron (14:10.989)

Warning.

Nathan (14:27.818)

layer of the way that we think the world should work or the natural world world should work. so yeah, entertainment, revenge, I think, for justifying our own previously held beliefs. or it could there be more morbid curiosity, could be its whole own category here, but those would all be reasons that just pop into my mind of and also ones that we would say would be outside of the Christian realm of

Cameron (14:33.142)

Mm-hmm. Okay. Yep.

Nathan (14:56.419)

mature and virtuous responses to any of these.

Cameron (15:01.026)

I I think the most obvious example that we've we've omitted is the slowing down at the scene of an accident. In some ways this is just a this is a deeply human issue. Although I do know some people who are just very lovely and gentle human beings, and the mere thought of harm coming to somebody else just chills them to the bone and they won't they would never look. But many, many of us, I'm gonna count myself among the many are intri just

suffer from morbid cure curiosity. And so you see you see an accident and the natural instinct is to slow down. It is for me. So that I think that I think that's probably one of the more common ones to just gawk. Yep.

Nathan (15:40.34)

Well hang on, can I can I can

Yeah. Let can I try to make a positive case for this real quick? I think there can be an educational element to this, and that there are times when you slow down and you look at a wreck and you're like, what just happened here? And there's a shocking sense of that could have been me, or if I had been doing that, or that's a bad idea. Don't do that. Where you're using the the other person's experience as an actual education sounds too flippant of a freeze here, but you're

Cameron (16:02.53)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (16:12.126)

It's a learning experience of the the vulnerability or the ways in which things can go wrong and you are taking something meaningful away from that, like slow down, watch out for ice, whatever. so so there might I mean there is a a sense in which, you know, what are those anti motivational posters where it's like just remember the purpose of your life might be to serve as an example for somebody else. you know, not really an uplifting thought, but I I

I I don't want to say that it's always wrong to see death. to So that's that's why this question is a little trickier.

Cameron (16:52.162)

Well, there's a world of difference between watching, you know, hunting down footage of this or slowing down at the scene of an accident and sitting at the bedside of somebody who is dying, whether it's a family member or a friend, and you are there with them as as an active presence as their life ebbs away. That's a very good thing to do. It's not all it's a very difficult thing to do. And it used to be something that was done

It was that was pretty normal, fairly routine. Especially family members used to be they would die in the home, surrounded by family and friends. There's nothing in the way of morbid curiosity there. There's nothing in the way of an unhealthy kind of interest. That that has everything to do with loving the person and serving them and just giving them the gift of your presence in those moments.

So that's very different. So I mean, yeah, I'm not speaking, yeah, I'm not making a blanket statement against ever being, you know, avoiding death at all costs. No, no, not at all. But I'm talking about instances of morbid curiosity getting the best of us. I'm talking about instances that would in any way cause us, degrade our view of human beings and to see their their destruction as a form of entertainment. We're already conditioned for that.

But we we don't wanna feed that habit in any way, shape or form because it is extraordinarily harmful to us and then we in turn harm others.

Nathan (18:27.574)

Yeah.

Nathan (18:35.434)

Yeah, and I was trying to think, like also there's a sense in which you don't want to not do this just for your own virtue. It's it's what what we're pushing at here is what is the level of care that you actually have for the loss of another human life independent of the way in which that life came to an end. So we're we're we're pushing here for a a deeper recognition of saying, is my emotional, mental, psychological, physiological reaction to death cultivated out of a

It's even biblical that God doesn't delight in the death of the wicked. And so if I'm finding myself delighting in the death of the wicked, then I have a misalignment problem with the will of God and his posture toward humanity, and and and my role in that. So you know.

Cameron (19:16.63)

Now I have I have a question for you, Nathan.

Cameron (19:23.224)

So when we look at this this so this this public e execution that's gonna that is scheduled to take place here pretty soon. I want your reaction to this to this pub public execution because given this man's motives behind the crime and all of that, I thought you had some pretty interesting thoughts on how this will play out for for him and for his own ambitions.

And also I think you had some broader observations about what yeah, what public ex how what role public executions can serve in general. So I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about that. Because we were we were chatting on the phone earlier. You had some good thoughts there, and I think we need to bring those those in.

Nathan (20:06.806)

Mm.

Nathan (20:12.342)

Okay, so let me let me back up and get a running start at this. the one of the the interesting things that I found when I was in college and taking ethics courses is that essentially in case studies, I got very good grades on my ethical considerations of how to work out a case study primarily by leaning on my intuition as a Christian and then finding a secular theory that would lead to the same conclusion. So I would have an

an i like a principled impulse on something like the sanctity of life or property or whatever and then i would do a deontological utilitarian you can go through the list of professional contractarian whatever the different types of ethics are and and wind up at the same thing and it it felt a little bit like cheating because I wasn't actually using that ethical system to form the moral opinion. I was using the ethical system to justify the moral intuition.

that I had as a Christian. but, and this was twenty years ago, we were still living in a culture, even in academ academia, and I think this would make Tom Holland happy to think about this, in in which this the subconscious the subconscious parameters of oughtness were still deeply formed by a Christian way of thinking even within the secular academy.

Cameron (21:13.688)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (21:39.989)

And and that's why the move that I was playing worked. Does does that make sense? So we were we were all working within Christian ethics and just putting a different label on it. And and I had found the the cheat code in that accidentally. I w this I wasn't clever enough to figure that out at the time, but that's what was happening. and so I think for me it's a question of when do you as a Christian object to something on the principle

But then you make an argument against it based on the practice. So let's let's take a public execution of a mass shooter at a a mill at a at a fort. on one hand, you're looking at this as a pretty straightforward cut and dry case of those who live by the sword die by the sword. Those who want to shoot up other soldiers are gonna get shot. Like that's Lex Talionis, like balance it out, that seems right.

Now, if you throw some sanctity of life, some considerations, the ethics, the virtues, how do we not become that which we detest? How do we not become begin to look like the evil that we're decrying? How do we not participate in the chaotic moral systems of those who are perpetrating? you can do that from a secul quasi-secular position. I think on this one though, if and this is this specific case, if you have somebody who wants to die as a public martyr to propagate

their religious ideology and their cause, a public execution is the dumbest way to execute somebody who wants to get famous for committing a crime against a nation in the name of their religion. and and so this is one where I like is our to to set aside the sanctity of life things, it's just like this doesn't seem like a good idea practically speaking.

Cameron (23:15.384)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (23:32.919)

Just because that that's gonna be like one of the most viewed for somebody who wants to be a martyr and presenting themselves as a martyr, and this is what could happen to you too. You will become famous if you shoot American soldiers and American citizens. running the PR campaign for that guy and acting like we think that's a form of judgment, there's something not computing there, culturally speaking, somewhere in in my mind. So that that one's a little

Cameron (23:33.624)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (24:03.007)

Weird to me.

Cameron (24:07.756)

Yeah. And also the not to mention another this this goes along with the we don't want to become the thing that we detest. But the tactics here significantly mirror those of the enemy if you're posting this kind of a public execution as a not just not just a form of it mean this is a form of a stark warning. This is not just retribution. It's this is this is what happens.

in a s to a significant degree, this is what many of these terrorist groups do. They use they use footage of executions very effectively to spread fear and to issue stark warnings. And so that's another disturbing piece in this whole in this whole scenario, I think, as well.

Nathan (24:54.708)

Yeah, ex except th that there's a there's a there's a massive difference here though, in that when you look at ISIS footage of executing Christians, those Christians aren't on a campaign to die in order to make a video to propagate their faith. The they're they're not trying to die as they're not actively going out of their way to kill people to become martyrs to publicize what it is that they believe to be true. So so y the

There are similarities in but there is that key difference there, in in this as well.

Cameron (25:29.324)

Yes. And once again, I mean if if we're if you're on the fence about seeing this footage, watching this execution, let me just bring in some considerations. It is n it is manifestly not our intention ever a thinking out loud to tell you what to think or how to think. We assume you're perfectly capable of that yourself. We just want to give you food for thought. As you consider that.

It's worth noting. I've I've done some reading on this. I'm I'm I'm curious. I bet Nathan has as well. I've done some reading on people who have actually attended executions. Now, I have to be forthright here. I have never lost a family member or a friend to a murder in cold blood. That's not happened to me. And I'm deeply, deeply grateful for that fact. And I know that many people who do find themselves in an unfortunate position are obviously many complex emotions come about.

But one of them is they they really, really want closure. And they believe that part of that closure will involve not only getting answers as to why something happened or how it happened, but to seeing the person responsible brought, you know, brought to death and brought to justice. I've read several interviews with different people, Nathan, who have said that they did not find that closure when they at when they attended the execution. And

Nathan (26:57.14)

Yeah, does that surprise you?

Cameron (26:57.366)

It was pretty I mean it very brave of them. No, not not a bit. Not a bit. Because we I'm gonna say something very difficult but deeply Christian. And it's the words the this is really this flows from the life and the ethos of our Lord. So I can point to Jesus as the responsible party here. The only road forward to closure, and closure doesn't mean an end to your pain.

If something like this has happened, there is there will be pain. There is no getting around pain. And there's there will be lasting pain and sorrow. But closure in the meaningful, realistic sense, has to involve forgiveness here. That's the only way that will work. And I've also and multiple people, many people have written about this very eloquently. I'm thinking of of different people in in, you know, so you know, who have been involved in tribal warfare in Africa who have

Forgiven people who've killed family members. I mean, there are remarkable stories out there. There's a book like Miroslav's Exclusion and Embrace, which looks at this on a very deep level. But the way forward here is forgiveness. Now, I I know that there are pe there will be people who are saying people have to be held accountable. I would agree. But I don't necessarily think that holding somebody accountable involves killing them. I do, but that's perhaps another

That's probab perhaps another discussion. All I'm saying here is the way forward to spiritual healing is forgiveness. And we may I think there's a natural impulse to think that if we see some form of, you know, retributive justice, if Lex Talianos is is tallionus is operational, that'll do it. But all the evidence is against that for the most part.

Nathan (28:59.444)

So let me let me switch things here just a second. as we kind of bring this to a close and think about somebody somebody older and wiser in my family once pointed out to me that if you're talking to somebody and they are feeling convicted of sin, or you're trying to speak to somebody in such a way that they're feeling convicted, that you're cutting in on what is clearly biblically described as the role of the Holy Spirit, and you aren't God.

So you can you can speak the truth, but you cannot bring conviction out of your own words or attitude towards somebody for them. That's that's the work of the spirit. And one of the things that's fascinating, biblically speaking, is that the concept of justice also is put into that category. Everywhere from vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord, to first Peter two, where Jesus leaves us this example, talks about his suffering, that he entrusted himself to the one who judges justly.

You have that beautiful passage in Matthew where it talks about until Jesus leads justice to victory, and in him the nations will put their hope. And so there's just this continuous litany of recognizing that ultimate justice is beyond the skill set of humanity, but that doesn't mean that it isn't real. And I I think a lot of people see beauty in Christianity for the love and the forgiveness and the mercy side, but there really is a a judgment and a justice part of this that

Cameron (30:15.054)

Mm.

Nathan (30:23.466)

Dare I say there is something beautiful about the fact that we commit people when they die into the hands of a merciful God, right? We say we don't know what to do with them in their lives specifically, but we thank God that He does. And it also takes us off the hook of running around the world with a green Sharpie giving, you know, green check marks and a red Sharpie giving red X's. that's not the system that we live in. And I think the moral difficulty of this conversation we're having is that it it shows the shallowness of our concept of human justice.

Let's say you you let's say Cameron shoots me and I die and he goes to jail for 20 years. In in what world do we want to act like Cameron sitting in jail for 20 years is the moral equivalent of the value of my life? Or let's say that the the person, so let's say that your daughter is killed by a map in a mass shooting, and then you go watch that person get killed. In in what

concept in your mind are those two lives equ equivalent of like, that okay, that makes it better. this this life and this love lost and taken from me is now that's we're we're dealing with we're we're trying to put some kind of seesaw here where we're gonna balance out justice. And so the thing of it is I th this is not to say I think we absolutely should have a police force and order and laws and rules and boundaries and I think it's a a God given duty even

However, you read Romans 13, that it's the responsibility of the state to create order and to use the sword to do that. but at the end of the day, as Christians, we just really can't act as if the state is ever going to provide perfect justice in any circumstance. And again, that's not to say that we shouldn't try and that we don't advocate for and we don't lean into and grow toward that. But just remember as a Christian, you have a deeper sense that justice will happen.

Cameron (32:02.851)

Yeah.

Nathan (32:17.982)

And therefore that gives us some nuance in the ways in which we approach and look at the death of other people. And so that's just something I want to keep in the back of my mind as you're looking at this is your first impulse to say, wow, what a what a loss for the family. This man fell off a roller coaster. There's going to be so much grief. Lord, would you help the people that are around the survivors there to live well in light of this and and encourage one another? And would you grant them their peace as you've promised, even in a in a chaotic time?

That's very different than like, huh, and keep on scrolling. and so, hm, yeah, I d I don't I don't ultimately know th this doesn't land anywhere, Cameron. This is just, I think, and for you listening, an encouragement to say, like, if we really want to take life as a gift and see it as a beautiful thing, then let's have the appropriate response to death. The thief comes to steal, kill and destroy, but I have come that they may have life, said Jesus. And so if that's the heart of God in this,

I think we would do well to remember that ultimately our high handed, high horse looking down our nose, giggling, laughing, seeking revenge, delighting in whatever. yeah, let's let's check our spirits on that and see if if we are really are functioning within the will of our Heavenly Father.

Cameron (33:41.672)

Lots to think about here and thank you for sticking with us through this. This has been a heavy episode. Sometimes we have to talk about heavy things because it's a heavy world. Like, share, and subscribe as always. This is thinking out loud if you missed that somehow. If you'd like to support the work that we do financially, you can do that by going to www.toltogether.com.