Are Riots Ever Justified? A Christian Perspective on Civil Unrest
Nathan (00:00)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co host, Nathan Rittenhouse.
Cameron (00:03)
And I'm your co host, Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:05)
Today's episode is going to be a riot. See what I did there? It's
it's it's a little weird because the word riot can have like a jovial like the show was a riot, ha ha funny,
Cameron (00:13)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (00:13)
or it can be like super
Cameron (00:16)
Riotously funny, but or very somber. Yeah. Yes.
Nathan (00:17)
Yeah, but or very somber. So let's
talk a little bit about rioting. first off, you shouldn't do it, and then we'll take the next half hour to explain why, perhaps. But before we get into all the negative you've everybody's seen France, Europe, stuff's on fire, multiple riots in multiple countries. It's kind of the air we breathe and humans have been doing it for a very long time. But before that, Cameron, I'm gonna put you on the spot to convince people that they have been to a riot, likely, in the last year.
Cameron (00:45)
Yeah.
Nathan (00:46)
In which something was lit on fire, slightly destructive things had happened, chaos was intentional, and
Cameron (00:51)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Nathan (00:53)
we're referring to a
Cameron (00:55)
party. Yes,
Nathan (00:57)
Yeah.
Cameron (00:57)
I mean and I I do mean any any party. I'm not talking just about, you know, parties that are that are risque or anything like that. I'm talking about just a birthday party. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nathan (01:05)
Birthday parties, grandma's birthday. You lit you lit candles on fire. You had
surprise destruction, open presents.
Cameron (01:12)
Yeah, I mentioned this on the Halloween episode, but there's the you could the words that come to mind here are festival or carnival, carnival in its original sense, which involved in medieval settings, it would involve a a reversal of roles. So people who, you know, in a feudalist society, basically peasants and serfs could dress up as members of the nobility and members of the nobility could dress up as members of the lower class classes and
You could act that out a little bit. But mainly to move away from all those historical examples, if you go to a party, part of what you're enjoying is a form of contained chaos. You have a pinata hanging, you smack
Nathan (01:55)
Mm-hmm. Well yeah, it it's
Cameron (01:58)
that thing, or you have, Nathan, you use the example of you're lighting things on fire, you have a bonfire, things like that. Sometimes there are there is dancing, sometimes there are games. And I think these are fun.
Nathan (02:11)
You probably haven't been to a quiet party.
Cameron (02:14)
Yeah, and if you have it's not the right kind of party. And this is me a a Yeah.
Nathan (02:18)
We're gonna drink tea and read books. I mean, so
actually Cameron, I think etymologically there's a little bit of help here in in saying so why do we have a a riotously good time? I think there's like an
Cameron (02:29)
Mm-hmm. Right. Yep.
Nathan (02:30)
Anglo French word meaning just like loud noise or disturbance. And so it it doesn't have a connotation one way or the other, I think, in it in the root of the word, that it's
Cameron (02:41)
Does
Nathan (02:41)
inherently destructive. It's just kind of a a a a ruckus.
Which could be a a fun ruckus, but clearly clearly
Cameron (02:48)
And before
Nathan (02:49)
nobody thinks I went to my grandpa's ninety-fifth riot.
Cameron (02:52)
Well, before we and before we we move on though,
to s just to stay on the example of parties, we also know that parties can move beyond the contained chaos to
Nathan (03:04)
yeah.
Cameron (03:04)
destruction. And that's when police get called, houses get you know, windows get broken, houses get damaged, noise violations occur, fight fist fights might happen, things like that. So
Nathan (03:20)
correlated
heavily with the percent with the amount of alcohol that was involved in this party, we shall say.
Cameron (03:23)
Correct. Yes. And also
perhaps the age the age group is a factor here as well if we're
Nathan (03:26)
Well, so th the
losing of control of the boundaries of the fun, I think that's what's happening there.
Cameron (03:31)
And I think I wanted
to bring that up because that's an important point to make because it is a fine line, isn't it? Even even at a children's birthday party, it is a fine line between the contained, fun, chaotic energies of some of these games and actual feelings getting hurt, fights happening, people getting angry, and then of course adults have to step in and and contain it once again and safeguard that sense of order. But it's a really fine line. And so I do think this is
an appropriate example to point to even when we think about something as serious as what's going on in France and now Italy
Nathan (04:06)
Hmm.
Cameron (04:06)
and so on.
Nathan (04:08)
Well, so y and and I I think part of the reason that we might struggle to do an appropriate analysis, there are 15,000 YouTube videos telling you why people are rioting in France, and it's probably not one group, it's multiple groups for multiple reasons, multiple levels. But
Cameron (04:20)
Mm-hmm. Sure.
Nathan (04:23)
when I suggested this topic to you, Martin Luther King had a has a fairly famous quote where he says, a riot is the language of the unheard.
And and I've heard that and I and I I I've I've heard people use it in in a sincere way, and I'm starting to wonder, man, we live in a time when it feels like everybody's pretty well heard. is that is that still true? And I think there's an element of it that is, and he and he's not justifying things one way or the other in that, but let's launch off of that. Is is really the reason for a riot?
That you have a peak a group of people who legitimately feel unheard through all the normal channels of communication.
Cameron (05:10)
Yes. And of course Martin Luther has in mind oppressed people groups as well and those on the margins of society. And it is still true that to date
Nathan (05:18)
Does anybody riot
who doesn't think they were one of those though?
Cameron (05:21)
Sure. Well and and it's still true today that around the around the globe that so countless, I mean scores of people are in that category and don't have a voice. Here on our North American shores, on the one hand, what seems to complicate that picture is the fact that we all have various forms of media at our disposal that allow us to err our opinions on any given topic all the time.
But I think there's a big difference, Nathan, and maybe we press into this a little bit between being actually unheard or ignored or silenced and feeling that way. And also it's worth pointing out, Nathan, that all of our various social media tools, notwithstanding, it they don't seem to make that much of a difference because we're also at a point when if everybody
Is airing their opinion.
Nathan (06:18)
You can listen to the you can not listen to the majority.
Cameron (06:21)
Yeah, and it just it you get this kind of mass dilution effect that's happening. And so, yeah, you have a voice, but everybody has a voice and everybody is screaming themselves hoarse. So how are you gonna be heard? So it may be the case that even though we have we have more means with which to publish our thoughts or to you know, we have more megaphones in our hands these days, we still don't feel heard. And maybe we still aren't heard. So I don't know.
I think
Nathan (06:51)
Yeah
Cameron (06:52)
I might be coming back around to the fact that he's probably still right on the money, yeah.
Nathan (06:55)
He might be right.
Okay, so then let's let's let's start working on this from a different angle. I was trying to think back like what makes a riot and like what are the conditions necessary for it. And so I was I was looking into why do you often not have rural riots? So l let's look at y you know
Cameron (07:15)
Yeah, that's an interesting question, yeah.
Nathan (07:18)
however if you did
have a rural riot, that would be way more destructive because all those people had bigger guns, chainsaws, tractors, and all the know how to take things apart. And
Cameron (07:26)
You're saying
rural people would be better at rioting.
Nathan (07:30)
I think when we look at the French riding, you're like, What a bunch of amateurs. Like, does nobody there
Cameron (07:33)
Mm.
Nathan (07:34)
own a chainsaw? Seriously. the the that's not how you used explosives. I I'm I'm making light of a situation that isn't funny. I s sort of apologize. No, I
Cameron (07:43)
A but par
part of we we can make light sometimes just to to that's there's a there's a healthy sense of levity sometimes with these things.
Nathan (07:49)
Well s
so so the so but but here's why. a it's really hard to to generate large crowds of anonymous people. So that that is a condition of a riot. You s not everybody there
Cameron (08:02)
Yeah.
Nathan (08:02)
knows everybody. So mask, your fa the faces are covered, there's dark clothing, the anonymity is an important feature
Cameron (08:09)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (08:10)
of of riotous behavior in that sense.
Cameron (08:12)
Mm.
Nathan (08:13)
you have to have culturally significant, culturally symbolic
architecture and art to deface. So so riots go after things that that symbolize the the the perceived oppressor. So whether or not that's a a a government building, whether or not it's art that's found offensive, whether or not it's an economic structure, there there has to be something that is culturally symbolic of the power
Cameron (08:40)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (08:41)
that you're you're up against. So you need that happening. You need to not have a
tight connection to the local authorities or police force. it would be hard for me to riot against the police here since I'm in a small care group with the local
go to church with the guy. That's like that's not like we're gonna fight in the street
Cameron (08:57)
Yeah, you go to you go to church with them, so it's already Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan (09:02)
somewhere over something. so you have you have a higher sense of shared communal values in in a small place. and so so that makes communication and negotiation easier.
You probably have people in the family of other people that you know, like, hey, this is what's going on, let's work this out. so so the antithesis of those factors create the conditions for a riot. So there yeah, that's just kind of an interesting way to think think about the like w the reason that riots happen in the places that they happen is not accidental. Th there's a there's a an ecosystem that th they they can the conditions can can burst into flames at at certain combinations of things. and that's not universally true. And that's why people say Paris is often a target point is because France does have a centralized government. So even when you see like French agricultural protests, the farmers drive their tractors to Paris and fling manure all over everything 'cause that is seen
Cameron (10:04)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (10:05)
as the
Cameron (10:08)
It's very symbolic action, isn't it? Yeah.
Nathan (10:08)
Yeah. Yeah, it's a symbolic act. And and so
some places lack the symbolic targets
Cameron (10:13)
Mm-hmm. Power that yeah.
Nathan (10:15)
needed for now you have j general good old fashioned looting, which is not what we're talking about here. That's just people being opportunistic in the middle of chaos.
Cameron (10:27)
Yeah, I I
think yeah, w when I think of rural examples, I also could throw we could throw in maybe mob kind of action sometimes or you know, whether lynch mobs in the past or or you know people vigilante justice taking place. But that's distinct from what we're looking at right here. I think those are really shrewd observations, Nathan, because you have you have the needed anonymity that you just that you just named and
Nathan (10:53)
Well,
and the K K K I mean, you got the hoods and the like so they're
Cameron (10:56)
yes.
Nathan (10:57)
yeah, so but anyway.
Cameron (10:58)
Yeah. But this this here you seem to so you have you have a sense of anonymity and then you have a sense of collective resentment that
Nathan (11:07)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (11:08)
is in some ways this is I think what makes it difficult for those of us on the outside. And it's it's so tempting to be an armchair philosopher, armchair sociologist right here. And when you're not in the midst of it, granted there are certain there are certain things that will we will just miss.
But certainly what's what's peculiar sometimes when you look at this is it it's a form of collective kind of resentment, anger, and discontent. But when you try to spell out precisely what's going on, sometimes it can look a little a little formless.
Nathan (11:43)
Mm.
Cameron (11:44)
And what is very clear is that many people feel enraged and powerless and angry, and they're unleashing that energy in the form of
Just destruction. But if you would actually and it it has been the case, Nathan, when occasionally they'll they'll round up some of these people, interview them and talk to them, and the answers that you get are a little bit are a little bit like when you pull an athlete out of a winning game. Yeah, what did you? Yeah, we yeah, we went out there and just we we you know
Nathan (12:14)
Well we went out there and we sported real hard. What are they supposed to say?
Cameron (12:18)
we just did our best, you know, 100%
It's it's sort of yeah, well we're not gonna we're not gonna take this anymore. We're not gonna put up with things the way they are. You know, we're we're and you know, it may be I'm straw manning a little bit. It may get a a little more specific, but it's often just
Nathan (12:30)
No, no, no, because it you can't you can't really
logically define what's going on there of like we're opposed we're opposed
Cameron (12:36)
Well, 'cause then you would ask
Nathan (12:37)
to broken schools in our we're we're opposed to broken windows in our school, so we're gonna break the windows out of the school. Like th there's no logic
Cameron (12:41)
Right. So then you would ask, so what what is hurling yeah, what's hurling
a brick through a window or setting this car on fire? How is that going to in any way bring us toward a solution? Or how's that going to help us?
Nathan (12:55)
Well, see, but here's the tricky thing is that I think there is a history. France has been rioting for a long time. and so this is
Cameron (13:02)
Bastille anyone? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Nathan (13:06)
and there have been times in which all right, so let's let's go this way. It depends on the degree to which you think the state is the solution to your problems. And France
Cameron (13:14)
Mm.
Nathan (13:15)
has established itself with a very
Cameron (13:17)
Yes.
Nathan (13:17)
heavy social structure in which the government is largely seen by everybody as the solution to all the problems, and so there have been
riots and uprisings and disruptions in the past that have brought light to a situation and then that thing has been better funded because of the outcry
Cameron (13:33)
Yes.
Nathan (13:33)
of the people. So it it has worked as a f as a form of social change, particularly in France, historically speaking.
Cameron (13:37)
So one answer then Yeah, so one answer to Well
yeah, so one answer to the the question I just posed then would be, well, if I light if I light this police car on fire, or if I, you know, throw this brick through this window or whatever it is, I'll finally people will stop and take notice. And something may happen. And the the tr that actually, yeah, that can work sometimes, you're right. So let's just concede that point. We're not necessarily saying that this is the right way of going about those things.
Nathan (14:05)
Yeah
no. Apparently. Yeah.
Cameron (14:06)
But can it be effective? Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Nathan (14:10)
Now, here's here's backing up as let's let's put a little bit of Christian th thought into this here is that years ago I was doing a talk on environmental justice and somebody was writing a re an article critiquing somebody who flew around the world on a private jet talking about the environment. and they're like, Isn't this hypocritical?
that your personal choices don't reflect, you know, the work that you're writing about. And the author said, well, you have to recognize that energy, agriculture, and transportation are all government level problems and therefore can only be solved at the government.
Cameron (14:55)
Wow.
Wow. that's amazing. Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan (14:56)
This is an American citizen saying that. Ex exactly. So so
why is that a wild statement? because you can you can back up not so long ago, let's go like my grandparents' generation, where your transportation came from your horse, you grew your food, and your energy came from the sunshine that made the grass grow that provided food and maybe you got some oil lamps to light the house at night. Like energy was energy, agriculture, and transportation were not government problems.
They were problems for every individual to solve. And so there's a sense in which that that's the it's it's two different visions of agency of whose problem is your lack associated with.
Cameron (15:38)
Can I put this
can I try to put this into perspective? This so hearing hearing a response like that from that from that person, I think would be a bit like somebody at a Princeton University Open Forum going up in the secular society and saying, Well, I just live my life this way because I've I've put my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and that's enough for me.
And that's sorry, apologies for the terrible accent. But I think the the way the the response that such a statement would elicit there, that's how I hear that's how I feel when I hear, yeah, well that's the responsibility of the government. So, you know, we can relax on that one as I'll go around doing my activism work and the government will solve all of our ecological problems. I have z zero faith in in that kind of assumption. Yeah.
Nathan (16:33)
Okay. So
if we wanted to look for a biblical foundation for rioting, which remember the first words some of the first words we said on this podcast is you shouldn't. The reason that I don't think that you see it there in the early church is because the early church had zero confidence that the government was the solution to the problems that were facing humanity at that time. So
Cameron (16:55)
I do seem to
remember Saint Paul causing a bit of a stir in a few spaces. Yeah. Yes. Right, right, right.
Nathan (16:59)
Okay, so Christians caused riots. Yes, for sure. They caused them, but they were not participating in them.
so yeah, and and and think about what why did he cause riots? Okay. economic conditions. So he's he's messing with the with the metallurgist and the idol makers.
Cameron (17:18)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Nathan (17:19)
he's he's blaspheming the local gods, so markers of collective cultural identity. and you can just go right down through the list, like.
The riots that started around Paul's preachings are around the same issues, economics, culture, as
Cameron (17:35)
Absolutely. Yep.
Nathan (17:36)
we as we see today. and now you had dis you did have disagreements, like you had the the Jewish and the Hellenistic widows weren't being fed in the same way. And the church, nobody had a riot. Church got together and said, Hey, yeah, actually, this is an injustice. We need to appoint people to make sure this happened. They had a council meeting and they worked it out.
Cameron (17:52)
They had a council. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan (17:56)
And
so I think if you're if your thinking is deeply Christian, rioting just is like you look at it like what is like if you ever s I was telling somebody like you ever see a kid like biting their fingers and crying? And you're like, the reason
Cameron (18:07)
Mm, yeah.
Nathan (18:08)
you get your hand hurt is you. Like you know, th so so some of that could be a lack of empathy, a lack of understanding the injustices and the equality
Cameron (18:16)
But also
Nathan (18:17)
in the system, or it's just like that does not seem like a solution that makes me want to take you more seriously.
Cameron (18:21)
We have to get let's get a little bit more intimate on this one. So some some I can hear some people saying, Yeah, but what if you're dealing with inherently unjust conditions? Aren't there certain instances that would justify rioting? And here we would have to point to the difficult good work of being Christians who are called to love God and love their neighbor.
So if I'm we have to think, this is why your community example is really telling Nathan. If I go to if I worship with the local butcher, I'm probably it's it's not a guarantee, but I'm gonna be less inclined to hurl a stone through his window. And in the same way, though, if if we're thinking in terms of other human beings, even if we live in a city with thousands of souls unknown to us, if we are thinking Christianly about this, we're going to think.
These are people, all of them, made in God's image. And as as wicked as I think some of the conditions are in the city, in the place where I make my home, and as unheard as I feel, I have to proceed in a manner that doesn't destroy the lives of others. If I destroy the lives of others, I've crossed a biblical threshold and I can't do that. So I just wanted to take it there for a second, because there are certain conditions that are inherently
wicked and unjust. I mean, if you just look around the world, one of the I mean, I was just reminded of this today in a prayer meeting, corruption. I mean, just very deep seated corruption. If you, if you look at, you know, many different nations around the world, it's just it's the norm. It's the terrible norm. And so a lot of people living in those kinds of conditions, yeah, may be inclined. The people to whom you know Martin Luther was writing those words were suffering egregious injustice.
Nathan (20:14)
But and
but this is what's wild about First Peter. It's a whole book written to Christians about how to maintain holiness in the context of suffering.
Cameron (20:22)
Yes.
Nathan (20:23)
And to see that ultimate justice comes from God, not from the state. I mean, it's a pretty relevant
Cameron (20:30)
Very. And also there's that willingness that to suffer that I think is it's very hard for certainly it's hard for me here, you know, living in North America, that one I think there there are many Christians around the world who would happily school me on this one. But
Nathan (20:48)
yeah, both of us.
Cameron (20:49)
but yeah, it's it's a it's a difficult issue when when we recognize, look, sacrifice is required of us all. The pursuit of justice is a noble one, it's a good thing.
But in that pursuit, as Christians, we have certain marching orders that take certain tactics off the table for us.
Nathan (21:08)
Okay,
let me let me let's outline one of those because I was thinking about this in terms of so a a riot is not just destruction, it's it's rapid destruction. So you'll say there was a night of rioting. I feel to some degree, Cameron, like I live in the context of a slow riot. I see
Cameron (21:26)
Mm.
Nathan (21:26)
abandoned buildings, I see buildings with broken windows, things that have been burned down, relationships that have been broken, people that have been injured, and it
The mission of the church is to build and to heal and to fix and to put things back together. So I feel like I live my entire life across all the spectrums, whether it be biological, spiritual, whatever, of trying to nurture and to grow and to restore and to fix and to repair and to nourish. And so that's a lifelong pursuit and posture of I have come that they may have life and have it to the full, the thief comes to kill, steal, and destroy.
Like it's it's just a different it's a whole different pattern of pattern of operation that in intuitively is is repulsive to me because it's clearly antithetical to the thing that I think we as followers of Christ have dedicated the entirety of our lives to.
Cameron (22:22)
Would it be fair to say, Nathan, given what you've just your the remarks you just gave, would it be fair to say that the opposite of rioting or one of the things that's that's quite antithetical to rioting rioting would be reform, which is playing the long game. It's committed to slow and careful building, it's committed to three steps forward, ten steps back occasionally.
Nathan (22:43)
Yeah, it's
not like Jesus didn't understand there weren't broken things in the world.
Cameron (22:47)
were right. But
Nathan (22:49)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Cameron (22:51)
when I always I'm always brought back to a throwaway remark, and I need to I'm gonna dig it out and and memorize it or something or but from Michael Polanyi, because it came in a very unusual source. It it's in Michael Polanyi's personal knowledge, which is this big tome on epistemology, but he has this line in there, and bear in mind he this is a Hungarian man who witnessed firsthand the ravages of
the Second World War and the Holocaust. And he's he's talking about how when you're seeing societal decadence or even decay and lots of upheaval, the temptation is to tear everything down. And he's he and I'm I'm butchering his phrasing because it's quite elegant, but he basically says that's the wrong impulse. The way forward is the slow and careful work of reform. And if you want any kind of because if if you just proceed with rioting and destruction, you you tear one thing down and it's usually replaced by something worse. And also it's very hard to build things again. If you move in the direction of reform, however, it's often slow and painstaking progress. But if you do make meaningful changes, the chances are those changes will be lasting. And it's a hard word when people have their back against the wall and are facing massively unjust conditions.
But it's worth bearing that in mind too, just from that's just a broader kind of philosophical observation here.
Nathan (24:18)
Yeah. Well, it's it's
it's a it's a truth that w one year when I was a kid we transplanted a a fairly large sugar maple tree and it was a little bit too big, it was a little touch and go to see if it'll live. And then just after a year or two when it r really was taking off, one of our neighbors ran over with a dump truck. Yeah, you know, so it's a it's a twelve second accident that undid years of yeah.
Cameron (24:44)
All that you all those years of work.
Yeah.
Nathan (24:46)
a and and that's the and and one of my kids in particular wrestles with this reality of
A drunk driver's wrong turn can take out seventy years of a life well lived. You know, I mean
Cameron (24:58)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (24:59)
there there is a a an asymmetric power in destruction over growth that's just baked into reality as we see it. now also
Cameron (25:09)
Nathan
Nathan (25:10)
there's some reflections on beauty there, but go ahead.
Cameron (25:12)
No,
but that was a really good observation. That asymmetric dynamic you brought up. Because I think that therein I think lies one of the major temp temptations of rioting and the destructive impulse. Because it's you you get a lot of concentrated power and energy right away. There's a dyna
Nathan (25:31)
Mm, mm-hmm.
Cameron (25:32)
dynamism there. And so again, if you're feeling powerless, you can unleash hell for a night or, you know, in a very quick span of time. Now, long term
You're going to be sifting through the ashes for years to come, and so will others. But I think the temptation there is that, is that very real, hey, you have this massive amount of power and destruction. And it seems to promise, it always, it always overpromises. Hey, this destruction will then somehow through through this destruction, we'll bring in something better. It never happens. But you can see that temptation
Nathan (26:07)
Yeah.
Cameron (26:08)
because the because the power at your here's something we actually can do right here.
And right now this is in our hands.
Nathan (26:14)
So yeah, so the the in our hands part, I think the the concepts of agency are important in this. and so I think as somebody who does feel like I have a lot of agency in a lot of categories of my life, that I I never I've never been at the point where it's like there's nothing I can do but break stuff. and and that's out of the a whole list of blessings in my life, from family to education to a whole number of other things.
that I do I as I I I think if you're a high agency person, you're going to look at these situations and be like, what is what is happening? If you really if you really do inhabit the mindset of I have no other option
Than to throw myself on the floor and stomp my feet in order to get attention. That's a that's a sad place to be in. And one of the ways that this was brought home for me in a healthy way, I spent the night speaking some time ago in Chicago. I spent a a night with a family that on the mantle of their fireplace, this is in Chicago, they had a brick on the on the mantle. And it wasn't like it was a brick that matched the wall or their decor or anything else. And I just said to guys, like, hey.
What's the story on the brick? And he's like, Well, there was a a riot last summer and somebody threw that brick through the windshield of my wife's car and he's like, It caused a significant amount of damage and we had to it was expensive. And he's like, We keep the brick on our fireplace to remember to pray for that person.
Cameron (27:48)
Hm. It's powerful. Yeah.
Nathan (27:49)
And I thought, I like being I like being with Christian people.
and and so there that was so there's an acknowledgement of like, yes, okay, the guy broke a windshield, dented up some other stuff, caused me a bunch of money. but also it's a there's a sign of a real hurt there in the life of that individual, one one way or the other, whether or not it's justified or not, that warrants some further reflection. And so I yeah, I appreciated that.
Cameron (28:17)
That's a profound
response. Well, I don't think that we've well, we we're not in the business of solving anything here. We're in the business of we hope pushing you to to think and to that end. You have anything else to add, Nathan? Before I was gonna close this, but I was gonna steal your last thought. Go.
Nathan (28:34)
Yeah, well, j yeah, just just just one thing. I I think I think
I I can I can learn from the things that I tell my kids. And so so often I find myself saying to them, Look, here's the situation. You have two options. You can wine or you can work. Which one of those do you think is gonna make a difference? And there's all like yeah, that's the third one that I hadn't the Presbyterians weigh in.
Cameron (28:54)
Or you can drink wine. I'm just joking. I'm just joking. Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan (28:59)
the
It so it's and then there's an eye roll and and you get you get busy with it. And so I think part of it is is is recognizing the all right, here's the reality of the situation. What do we meaningfully do? And I was talking to to my kids the other day about it's it's in the transitions that are difficult for us. If you're on a a a long walk and you're coming back toward your house and you're a quarter mile away and it starts to rain, you're gonna run, you're gonna be upset that you're getting wet, whatever you know, it's like, no like getting wet.
If you're a mile from your house and it starts dumping the rain, you just embrace the fact you're going to get sopping wet. And then it turns into a hilarious situation and you slop your way home in sloppy shoes. you you just embrace the situation and say, okay, this is what we're gonna live with now. And I so I think it's in those the transition between rapid changes where it's the hardest to have clarity on how to behave. And so I I d we came out saying
We're opposed to rioting. We're not opposed to pointing out things that are wrong. We're not opposed to putting in hard work. we want to do that in the way of Christ. We want to value other people and their property and think constructively about our communities and what our actions symbolize and the character that's being formed in us and the way in which we engage the world around us. But that is way more effective if we say, Lord, thy will be done. Here's the situation that we inhabit. How do you want us to work well in this rather than whining
in any glorified sense or destructive sense and acting like it's somebody else's job to do what it is that the Lord has tasked us with. So those are things that I say to my kids that I want to be reminded of for myself.
Cameron (30:41)
Well said. And if you also think that's well said, then you should tell other people that lots of things are well said on thinking out loud.
Nathan (30:48)
Yeah.
Cameron (30:50)
So you can like, share, and subscribe. One of you pointed out on YouTube helpfully, hey, if you're gonna talk about following, you know, subscribing on YouTube, you might want to engage a little bit. Okay. Consider yourself duly engaged. I get it. You want us to get up all in the comments? Yes.
Nathan (31:05)
You you wanna see if Cameron can type. Okay, we'll see.
Cameron (31:09)
The answer is, nah. We'll see. We'll see. Maybe, maybe some engagement is forthcoming. But in the meantime, we would, yeah, like, share, and subscribe. We really appreciate it. It really helps. Spread the word. If you would like to support us financially, you can do that by going to www.toltogether.com. Stay awesome.