9/11, Osama bin Laden’s Letter to America, Religion, and the Crisis of Secularism

Cameron (00:00.802)

Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co host, Cameron McAllister.

Nathan (00:06.064)

And I'm your co host, Nathan Rittenhouse.

Cameron (00:09.452)

And as of this recording, we are we're recording this on September eleventh. So obviously a momentous moment. And we want to reflect on that. I think Nate, I mean, we all have everybody has a 911 story. Mine is still very vivid for me. I remember precise place I was at. I remember what class I was in. I remember who I was sitting next to. All of that. People our age can say that.

But a lot of people now are having to kind of reckon with the significance of of this event that really did that that was that changed history, but they have no first hand experience of it. And so it's been interesting to see some of the retrospectives and some of the reflections. But one thing that caught your attention, Nathan, and I think this is gonna structure the first part of our conversation, is that the letter to America from Osama bin Laden

has been making it making the rounds online. I think you mentioned something like I mean you mentioned millions and millions of views. So say a little bit about that and how that caught your attention and how you found it interesting.

Nathan (01:16.788)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (01:20.858)

Yeah. Well I I think there's there's this temptation we have of for you, this is old hat. But particularly after October seventh and the entire Gaza Israel f debacle that is still continuing, Osama bin Laden offered what would be ki kind of like the the flagship critique of American decadence and American interventionalism and any so

So there's a resurfacing of people kind of rediscovering Osama bin Laden's writings, and this corresponds to a time in which, however you want to look at it, there's been a massive rise in the phrase the Jews as the reason for just about anything. And so Osama bin Laden's letter to America, blaming the Jews for basically everything that's wrong with the world is sort of like the the OG manifesto of our

of our time that's being rediscovered now by a younger generation who d didn't really remember those elements. And I now I would like to point out that I think that the modern secular readaptations or fascination with bin Laden's letter whitewashes it significantly and leaves out a lot of his critiques and just focuses on ones that might be yeah, politically expedient or popular right now. but they yeah

doesn't get into a lot of his the fact that it is a religious document outlining a religious vision calling the country to religious repentance. And so it's a it's a evangelist for a way of seeing the world who sees sees the world in deeply religious and moral terms, trying to speak to, I think, a society that basically sees itself acting in sociological and economic terms. And so to me it just seems like we are again

Cameron (02:52.76)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (03:03.715)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (03:14.981)

entrenched in a massive conversation of missing the point in which the competing visions are speaking two different sides and things get muddled up all in the middle of that.

Cameron (03:28.908)

Let me okay, I want to come back to your whitewashing comment because I think that's very important. But let me let me back up for a second and let's go back to the conversations that followed from the event of of 9-11. So we all remember Francis Fukuyama. In fact, Francis Fukuyama is alive and well and still a very important thinker and worth paying attention to. But why do we all remember Francis Fukuyama? He was visiting his, I just found this out. He was visiting his in-laws.

in Nevada, I think, and he wrote a little essay called The End of History. And he's according to this article I was reading, and he has spent the rest of his career fighting back against all of the arguments and criticisms. In a sense, this is a good thing, right? Because it it launched his career. But we we're gonna remember him for that phrase, the end of history. Now it was there's a lot to that phrase.

I'm not going to die the death of a thousand qualifications. You can, you could, it was originally an al an Atlantic article, I think. And then it became a book. So you can, you can read it and you can delve into the subtleties of his argument. But essentially, a big part of what he was saying was: hey, now with you know modern capitalism and globalization, we have reached the end of the warring history that we that we've always known of that the kind of

geopolitical major battles over territory and certainly religious warfare because now we have this this beautiful system. Again, I'm I'm painting in broad strokes. He's he's a he's a subtle subtle thinker. But that's what he means by the end of history. And then 9-11 kind of shattered that illusion. And suddenly in the wake of that event, you had all of these people writing these breathless articles and and and writing very angry books and basically saying,

Nathan (05:11.485)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (05:21.962)

I thought we had outgrown religion, but it turns out it's it's it's not only is it alive and well, my goodness, but it actually makes a difference. It's very important. And I think a lot of Christians were sitting back and just kind of saying, Yeah, we we've been saying this f for a long time. And then you had of course this was also the what launched the the I think the new atheist movement in significant ways. Sam Harris writes letters to a Christian nation.

Nathan (05:47.237)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I was thinking that too.

Cameron (05:50.817)

Yeah. And then we have then we have, you know, the God delusion. And I mean, these are all selling millions of copies. And that there, of course, that's the kind of shadow side of all of this. They're saying, see, see, not only is religion false and irrational, it's evil. It it poisons everything. That was the, I think, the subtitle of Christopher Hitchens' book. It poisons everything. It is, it's it's a destructive force in the world. Look at it, it levels buildings. Science takes you to the moon. So

Nathan (06:12.797)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (06:20.578)

I think we I think people who didn't live through that need to know a little bit about how this brought religion to the forefront again and how there were some people smirking in the sidelines, not callously, but saying, Of course religion is important. I mean, y you you narrow minded Westerners, how do you think that your little tiny sliver of the globe represents how everybody thinks in the world?

Nathan (06:45.669)

Yeah, well in in just like let's let's fill in some color in the lines that you sketched for us there. if you look at because and and the reason this is pertinent now is you do have pretty significant political figures who would say, yeah, nine eleven was justifiable blowback for American interventionism in the rest of the world. So I mean th this kind of language is in twenty twenty six out there and Osama is kind of spelling out in in

the original and this is this is why. But if you go and look at the arguments that are happening, let's go back to the Israel, Gaza Palestine region conflict, Osama bin Laden's vision is not that the Jews are making an an an irrational argument to say that the land is divinely given to them. It's that their Torah has been corrupted and clearly the Muslims are the descendants of the promises of Moses and

And that the uncorrupted Torah says that the Arabs are to receive the land. And so they're both making a theological argument and it's an interpretive question about who has the correct historical religious vision for that space. Now, I mean, can you put some legwork into this and say, well, it's kind of interesting that the Muslim's version of this disappeared for 2,600 years and then just popped up in the lifetime of Muhammad conveniently at the time in which Islam was taking over large sections of the Middle East.

and that there's no historical record of any documents saying anything other than what the Hebrew scriptures say. I mean, so like if you start wanting to think about it rationally, it's a pretty slam dunk case in that category. But what I'm saying is you have two groups of people who historically for a very, very, very, very, very long time have been fighting within a theocratic vision that I think it's very difficult for us in the West to step into if we're trying to look at this from a a sec secular liberal democracy.

And then it gets more confusing because we're going to pick and choose elements of that and say, look, it is Israel's political interference within the American system that funds this. And so it really is Osama was right. The Jews are behind the politics and the media of the of the Western world. And it's part of a conspiracy to weaken the you know, there's that, but you're leaving out the entire indictment that Osama has against fornication, homosexuality, economic practices, gambling.

Nathan (09:11.899)

I mean, he was like way anti woke way before an anybody else was on just railing against the decadence of Western civilization, hypocrisy and its moral vision and its application. there there's a whole lot more that he's preaching out of a sense of I mean, one of his big things is is that America has not adopted Sharia law and is interfering with the implementation of Sharia law. like I I don't hear, you know, as many people getting excited about

did you know that Osama critiqued Western, you know, democracy? Yeah, he critiqued a whole lot of stuff. And just because somebody points something out that's wrong doesn't mean that his alternative is a good solution. So it just it seems to me to come across Cameron as something that to a part of the world is old hat to discuss, and to another part of the world I you could talk about this in the rise of socialism, communism, all sorts of forms and and theories of of government or

Fiscal shenanigans that, hey, we've tried this before and it seemed so obvious that it didn't work that we don't talk about it anymore. And you and I are living in a generation who's rediscovering for the first time redistribution of wealth. So the yeah. Anyway, I'm gonna sit pause, sip my tea, and you straighten this out.

Cameron (10:32.769)

Yes, well I'll I'll do my best. Sip some tea. Okay, a couple of items of of note that that you mentioned. Let's first of all, there's the discrepancy between a group of people here in on let's just say North American shores, let's just say a lot of Western people who think when they think about the Middle East.

And they or they think about Israel and Palestine and all of this, they think largely in geopolitical terms. But you said you've said a whole lot of very interesting things here, Nathan. And when we were on the phone earlier, you also said this doesn't really when Osama bin Laden pens that letter, he's not thinking about the price of oil. And we tend to automatically go in that direction. So let's talk a little bit about why.

Nathan (11:06.074)

Mm, mm-hmm.

Cameron (11:29.805)

We have motivations. You've used the word spiritual or and moral vision that motivates certain certain of these these different I mean, whether I mean underwrites the letter, but also terrorist activities and all of that. So why do we have such a hard time understanding that the motivations behind some of those endeavors are not

exclusively political, but that they are in indeed actually mostly religious and moral and theological. And indeed in this case, in in the case of Islam, theocratic.

Nathan (12:09.311)

Yeah, well, so I there's a there's a little bit of a a dismissive arrogance that seems to me to be baked into this, Cameron. I mean, the letter starts with a quote from the Quran and probably has fifteen passages from the Quran baked in it. And and Osama in his extended writings around this says, Look, this is a pleasure for us to fight you and to die. This is a form of worship for us. We're excited about the war that's happening and what it's doing to you guys. this puts us in better standing with our Lord.

Like to what extent can you not just believe the sincerity of the person? Now, obviously, most take him out yeah, yeah, like it's it's like, okay, you're you're telling me what your motivation is, but you naive simpleton, it surely can't be that. It has to be geopolitical reasons that you're doing this. Cause we can only think in those categories. Therefore, the categories that you say you're thinking in aren't really what you really believe. Now

Cameron (12:45.081)

Take him at his word, in other words. Yeah.

Cameron (12:59.897)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (13:08.005)

Osama bin Laden's life and his porn and I mean, like hi his life was a massive contradiction full of hypocrisies as well. So it's not like we're talking to somebody who is morally pure even by their own standards. But I'm but I'm saying that there's this tendency I think that we have in a modern secular age to look at somebody who is giving us a religious or a spiritual vision or explanation for their motivation and to be like, I wonder what it is.

Like we it's it's my it's a form of worship for me. Yeah, but really what is like this is about climate change, right? It's not really no, it's about my worship. Yeah, but it's about no it s it so it seems like there's an arrogance baked into it on there maybe there's another solution, but it that's it seems like that at least is a part of it.

Cameron (13:57.604)

I think so. An arrogance also, I think there may well just be a blindness here as well. Because we are it's again, we we live in it, Nathan. We live in this atmosphere. But even we c in to a small much, much smaller degree, I think we see this play out in the American public square with with people of

various religious stripes, but let's just talk about Christians. Let's talk about Christians who who stand out. Who so basically th that would be theologically and perhaps rightly, you know, theologically and and politically conservative Christians. So this could this we could include Catholics, certain Catholics here. We could include even some evangelicals here. I don't want to paint, you know, I don't want to be too too broad. But the when you look at

discussions where when there are there are are clashes there, it's often there there's a failure to to hear religious concerns as legitimate concerns that are that are fit for the public square. Because it's no, no, no, no. We're w yeah. Say more there.

Nathan (15:09.331)

Okay, let Well so so so is is a is a are a group of Catholic nuns who are opposed to contraception religiously opposed to contraception or are they really secretly pro-patriarchy and anti-women's rights? Like it doesn't even register in the in the broader conversation that there could be an actual moral and spiritual framework that somebody is making a decision based off of that isn't a sneaky

Cameron (15:28.215)

Right. You so you're going exactly where I Yes, exactly. Yep. Mm-hmm.

Nathan (15:38.909)

political sabotage.

Cameron (15:39.343)

And the same.

Cameron (15:43.204)

Same could be also said for for those who are opposed to abortion. So the the way that gets reframed is along similar lines. That don't you don't actually care about the life of the child. You want you you yeah, you're you want you want again, score some points for patriarchy, you want control. This is and you know, you don't care about reproductive rights. So yeah, so that I just I'm saying this just to show how we might be predisposed to some blindness, even here on our own shores, in some of the

Nathan (15:47.955)

Mm. Yeah, exactly.

Cameron (16:12.249)

The debates that are serious, but very routine in the sense that we hear them a lot. Even here, it is very hard for many people, especially people who are in highly educated sectors, to take motivations from a moral vision or religious convictions seriously, in the sense that they just they always they'll they'll acknowledge, yeah, you you self-identify as an evangelical, but really.

What's motivating your behavior, what's really there is is actually if we strip away the facade, it's just politics and economics and all of the other secular values that shape our culture. And we have these events that where there are literal exp you know, explosive, literally explosive events, and we continually d some people will see the light, but many people don't. They still they still tend to think, nah, I mean, in in the end, it's it's still just

It's the the main motivations here are are political and that's the way it goes. People aren't really I mean, religion doesn't really dri move people in those ways. It's just it's pretty remarkable.

Nathan (17:23.975)

Well, it part of the I think it's getting more confusing though because what what is the let's I don't know, let's pick an age group and pick on What does the average twenty two year old in America what would they be willing to die for?

Nathan (17:45.789)

I don't know the answer to my question there.

So it's

It's it's it's kinda hard for that group to envision that somebody else is motivated to the point of the loss of their life. It yeah, I guess we're pointing to this it's a shallowness in our own ability to engage with a vision that historically all humans have been able to get on board with. That I'm seeing it as a deficiency in ourselves, not as a achievement, I guess, is

Cameron (17:52.482)

Yeah.

Cameron (18:12.611)

Yeah. Let's pr let's yeah, a deficiency in ourselves, not a not as an achievement. Let's pursue that line for just a second. So we've talked about some of the factors that are keeping us from really understanding what's going on here are arrogance and then blindness. But now you're you're pointing to moral deficiency. Which I think is right. So we want to let's speak we'll speak carefully here, but for a long time now.

A lot of people have pointed this out. There there is concern because we have been it's impossible to do justice to how we we got here, of course, right now within the span of a few minutes. But let's just let's just say your question occasions crickets now. Who you know, how many twenty two two year olds do you know who would be willing to die for something? Do we know all twenty two year olds? No. But we do know the general mood of our culture is very individualistic. It's very focused on safety.

In fact, I think the key the our version today of paradise, if you spelled it out, would be security and I think comfort, convenience, security and s and and satisfaction. Those would be the the biggest that's that's the that's the good life. That was f for if you even if you went back not in t in the too distant past, plenty of people would see that as a description of a possible

Nathan (19:27.858)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (19:41.444)

Kind of a kind of prison, a sort of fancy prison. That's certainly the vision that that Aldus Huxley is is giving us in Brave New World. But also they would see that as those they would see those as as conditions, if those if those are your highest values, that they would militate against courage, all of the harder virtues. They would keep you from devoting yourself to a cause larger than your own wants and wishes and needs.

And I think that's what's so hard for people to imagine these days is is there a cause, is there a moral vision? Is there something that transcends my own wants and my own circumstances that I could be that I could be drawn to? Now, the very obvious candidate for something like that is religion. That's what I mean, religion is in essence something that is that tra that will help you to transcend your circumstances, that will help you to imbue your life with.

A meaning that goes beyond just the circumstantial. And this is also why, Nathan, you do find people who and they are typically upper middle class or wealthy young people who sometimes are radicalized or recruited into w you know, whether whether we're talking about, I mean, for a while there was a lot of attention was being paid to these people who were who were being recruited for Al Qaeda and and and organizations like this, and people were scratching their heads, but there were actually a group of

Not just theologians and and and you know theological thinkers, but there were there were anthropologists who were studying this and saying, yeah, no, actually this makes this makes sense, and here's why. They have been pulled into a moral vision that offers a level of of cohesion and meaning and purpose in their lives that far exceeds anything else on offer here in this in this civilization as we have it right now. In fact, the civilization as we have it right now is very

hollow and very narcissistic. So there is a real appeal there. So I don't think I helped us one bit here. I think all I did was try to show

Nathan (21:45.064)

Well th there no there there's a there's a s well Well th there there's a symbol for this. It's the coexist bumper sticker. That that is the that is the the slogan of our time. So you go and read Osama's writing of saying, Allah has permitted us to attack and kill and take revenge on anybody who attacks us in our way of life.

And it is morally permissible by the decree of God to exact revenge. If you bomb our cities, we bomb you. If you kill our civilians, we're gonna kill your civilians, and this is the will of Allah. All right, tell me how that's the same as what Jesus said.

No, those those are totally different moral visions from two totally different descriptions of what the character and the nature of God is like. So let's go to our little Ivy League school and slap a coexist bumper sticker on the back end of our sports car on our way to the golf course and feel like we have now reached a vision of enlightenment because we know that really at the core all of these religions are the same, even if they say they're different.

Cameron (22:58.113)

It's worth pointing to also the the assumption, the hidden assumption behind that, Nathan, and that points up the arrogance you were talking about earlier, because there is there is a there's a vision behind that, and it is not neutral, and it is the assumption that the the neoliberal order and secular neutral values are really the highest good. That though that that ought to be the central vision.

of our lives. Only if you have that that's the background assumption. If you have that as your background assumption, then what you can do is cynically reduce all these religious religions, which are so, you know, massive, all have their own claims and all their own visions, many of them incompatible with one another. Only then can you reduce them all to little symbols. And the neat little consumer

decision to have a bumper sticker. So yeah, on so in a sense, what you're doing there is you're not taking any of them seriously. And you're also saying out of the side of your mouth, I know you better than you know yourself. I know Islam better than you do. I know Judaism better yeah. So it's it's worth pointing that out. Yeah.

Nathan (24:11.687)

Yep, that's right. Yeah.

Look let me run down a rabbit trail here then of a of an an urge like here's something to think about. lots of people are interested in conservation, wildlife habitat, wildlife management, Audubon society, you know, the whole nature. everybody's for it. Two thumbs up. And yeah, a couple years ago I was reading an article that was pointing out and making the case that I would say anecdotally I know to be true, is that the vast majority

of the funding for wildlife, habitat, and management comes from the sale of hunting license. Hunters are funding the most dynamic, meaningful preservation of habitats, the best science into wildlife management. it's really amazing. So yeah, there's some government pro products pro programs out there and a couple, you know, downtown New York City or you know, nonprofits, but if you want like real boots on the ground, who's doing the work of preserving the natural world.

It's it's the hunters, which is counterintuitive and blows everybody's mind who doesn't inhabit that space. But this article was making a case that if you wanted to support wildlife conservation and actual scientific research into wildlife biology, what you should do is you should go buy a hunting license, even if you never intend to use it. And now I don't know if that's really a a but they but they're saying you need to change your thinking on who's actually doing the real work here.

Cameron (25:39.48)

Right.

Nathan (25:45.404)

And I and I think there's a a similar argument to be made here, Cameron, for let's say you're not religious at all, but you do care about how the world works. I think it is incumbent upon you to have a working knowledge of the actual religious perspectives of the different parts and pieces of the world and of your neighbors and of the people around you. And and so like it's like buying a a hunting license, even though you don't intend to use it. I think there's a deficiency in your

capability to like it's hard to do physics if you can't do basic math. And I think it is hard to understand the world if you don't have a basic foundation of the religious differences and the significance of them. And a lot of the beauty and complexity like this is not an anti I'm just asking us to get our heads out of the sand here and look at the world in the terms in which it's describing itself and to maybe take people seriously and say maybe the motivations that they say

Cameron (26:21.614)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (26:44.177)

Are their motivations actually are their motivations, and that the differences are meaningful differences and we can actually evaluate them and make sense of it. So I think that's that's that that would be the that would be the the thing that I would want to say to my generation that seemingly is is building an eclectic we like Osama's critique of Western civilization. Well, hey, you better read a little bit more there before you go all in on that analysis.

Cameron (27:03.172)

Yeah.

Cameron (27:14.103)

Yeah, you can pretend that the differences don't exist and try to flatten everything. And we've we've tried that be f before, by the way. That was that was the whole multiculturalism project, and it's been widely acknowledged to be a failure. Or you can take the harder road and recognize that the differences matter and that they do indeed make a difference. And that's a harder road because those are more difficult conversations.

They will involve real arguments, they will involve deep disagreements, but and we were talking about this a lot in the past, we have to have this conversation again. This is why civil discourse is so important. This is why the art of disagreeing well is vital. It's an absolute necessity. It is within our reach to work through these differences.

with our Muslim friends, with our Jewish friends, with our Wiccan friends, whatever. But it's gonna have to start with taking the other person seriously. And instead of viewing them always through the lens of the hermeneutics of suspicion and trying to whitewash or translate them into your own version of what they ought to be, seek to understand first. That means we have to listen to

That means we have to talk. Again, it's the harder road. It's the more grown up road. It's the more mature road. But I think many, especially many young people, I think, will recognize the wisdom in that. I'm already hearing that wisdom. I would I would ha heartily say, Nathan, from 22 year olds. I'm having a lot of really wonderful conversations with younger people. And I'm walking away pretty encouraged, actually, because they've they have seen. No, no, and I'm not, yeah, but I they have seen.

Nathan (28:44.221)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (29:05.233)

Yeah. no, yeah, that was

Cameron (29:10.829)

the shortcomings of not just polarization, but the they've seen the folly of people just screaming at each other and that all being turned into some s form of sick entertainment. And that's a that's a good thing. To see the deficiencies of that is a is a good first step. But yeah, my my counsel, my admonition, my exhortation would be have hard conversations and be honest about differences. And I I think that's a step in the right direction.

Nathan (29:23.056)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (29:39.603)

Read the original sources might be a

Cameron (29:41.934)

Read the Yeah, so you think there's something there's some valid critiques in in Osama bin Laden's letter? Okay, read the whole letter though. And take him seriously. Because he he meant what he said. He did. He followed through. I mean, the man meant what he said. And and also ask yourself then some very obvious, you know, some some direct or just get practical questions. Would you do you want to see Sharia law implemented on American shores?

This is a big existential question for many countries in Europe right now. I'm thinking about France. I'm thinking about England. I'm thinking about Austria, where I where I grew up and I used to live. You can go to whole districts of the city now that are essenti it's essentially you you almost might think you need your passport because you're you're in a different country, practically speaking. Okay. Those are worth we have to deal with the specifics. So yeah, that would be my counsel.

Nathan (30:38.077)

So well let let me let me just as we bring this to a close add one extra hard layer. J like I'm just gonna open a can of worms and then we'll leave. Okay. there will be in the next 10 years the need for a lot of this same type of work to be done within the church. On how are you using scripture? What is the theology that is being preached in your pulpit? What is the way in which we're using the Bible? What's the interpretive framework? And are we talking about the same thing?

Because you're going to see a lot of stuff done in the name of Jesus that I would bet you're not going to be okay with in the next decade. And so we also are going to have to draw some lines of distinction, not between, you know, is I'm I'm not going to name names within Christianity, but it's it's it's not just like, are the Buddhists the same as the Muslims? No. But is everybody who is saying Jesus is king, meaning the same thing by that, discernment will be necessary.

all along the way there. So let's yeah, the problem isn't out there. This is something that's intended for us to not shake our finger and look down our nose at everybody else to but to think through. Are we are we really being able to see the world through the eyes of somebody else? And that and then we can be critical. Then we can make distinctions. Then we can, I think, love the other. And even if we think somebody is misguided, that doesn't mean that we hate them. Even if we see a difference, that doesn't mean that we ostracize them or mistreat them or take away rights or anything. None of that

follows logically from understanding that there's a difference. I think more confusion comes from and more injustice comes from trying to act like there's a commonality when there isn't, than from having clarity when there's a difference and then being okay living with attention or the differences that arise from that. So that's that's tough work for us to do. But it's necessary, I think, for us to not just be totally confused when we look at the world around us and for us to live well and faithfully in our day.

Cameron (32:09.774)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (32:18.243)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (32:38.841)

Think on these things. You've been listening to Thinking Out Loud, a podcast where we think out loud about current events and Christian hope. If you like what we're doing, please like, share, and subscribe. Spread the word. It really helps. Be our megaphone. Also, if you'd like to support the work that we do, you can do that by going to www.toltogether.com.