Natural Disasters, Creation & God’s Will: How Should Christians Respond?
Nathan (00:00.834)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co host, Nathan Rittenhouse.
Cameron (00:03.852)
And I'm your co host, Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:05.964)
Cameron, I'd like to talk to you today about what in the world is the world, which is not intended to be funny or an attempt at overthinking something, but to back up. What w yeah. So this could get interesting in a hurry, but the the framing story that I I want to bring in on this, I think most of the globe who had access to a screen was kind of enthralled with I mean, just the the images out of Nepal, Tibet in that flood a couple of weeks ago were just
Cameron (00:13.496)
Well, we are the world. Just kidding. Just kidding.
Nathan (00:36.72)
there was something like there's just something about watching that level of destruction, hundreds of feet of water at super high speeds, and just a complete human just the destruction, the loss of human life, humans that didn't have a chance to flee. There's something just kind of sickening and and all and s like yeah, you're you you see humans raw humans in the face of raw nature unfold. And then miraculously, I mean, and I
Hard to say what the actual death count is still going to be. We're weeks out now. But then nine, 10 days later, pulling workers out of the hydroelectric dam there who had been alive and just a crazy, I mean, just watching some of the excavators working in tandem and the first responders response. And yeah, there's just a a lot going on there to to process. And we've we've talked about natural disasters on this show periodically, and we will again in the future because
They happen. It's part of the world that we live in. But I thought maybe this would be a good opportunity for us to loop back around theologically and just ask ourselves some questions, maybe actually asking each other some questions out loud here as we help our listeners think through what do you think the world is, theologically speaking? And then how does that play into your concept, not only of eschatology, but into how we live well now ethically and how we think about
Cameron (01:59.791)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (02:01.116)
nature and God's will and work in our lives and in in the material things of the world. So let's let's lean into this a bit.
Cameron (02:11.074)
So I think one easy response that a lot of people will go to, Nathan, and I wanna hear you talk a little bit about this, is I think the first impulse is to say, Well, as Christians, we believe the world is fallen. And so therefore, when we see natural disasters like this on a scale like this, we're we're dealing with fallenness in the created order.
Nathan (02:22.584)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (02:31.318)
Yeah. okay. And so let's let's take that apart a little bit. And and and I think I'm not trying to deconstruct anything here, just pull at some threads here to see if we can't see a little more beauty in this. because the same group of people is going to praise God for the starry night sky, for the beauty of the sunset, for the ecological systems that are at place, for the birth of a a healthy baby, and we're going to see God's act and power in the beauty of what we maybe consider even to be unfallen elements.
depending on where you're at on the theological spectrum of that. That being said, let's back up one step further and say that the word fall is not part of the biblical analysis or story. It's doing the work in the same way that the word Trinity does or something. It's a stand in term for a constructed theological framework, same as let's say something like the idea that God created out of nothing, ex Nelio.
It it it doesn't literally say anywhere in scripture that God created out of nothing. In fact, it says in the beginning the earth was formless and void. But we infer, based on our understanding of his holiness and spirit preceding matter, that he didn't create it out of pre existing material, because that wouldn't really philosophically or theologically make sense. And we also reject the category, as in some theological developments, that he created ex deo, which is out of himself, and so therefore the world has
bits of the divine infused within every, you know, fleck of bark on a tree and dewdrop that we're not walking on a manifestation of the of the body of God and creation. So so you can pretty quickly see how you would get back around to the idea of he created it out of nothing. and in the same way you can get back around to looking at descriptions of the separation between humans and God and the brokenness that comes from that. And then cursing
not only of Adam and Eve, but of the of the land and the way that things would that the physical earth would respond to the moral decay of humanity and and piece together that type of idea. And so there there might be categories across or degrees across the Christian world to which we want to say the degree to which we think things are fallen or broken. And usually those are corresponding directly to the way in which
Nathan (04:54.614)
The physical world is inconveniencing me at any given moment.
Cameron (04:57.474)
Hm. Let me raise a practical question now that is not unrelated to what I just asked you, and I think you're gonna help us to draw the or to make the make the link here. Mudslides have a role to play in the ecology of a landscape, do they not?
Nathan (05:17.634)
Sure, yeah. Tornadoes, hurricanes, massive thunderstorms in the spring, snowstorms.
Cameron (05:19.446)
So
Cameron (05:25.516)
Right. Fires. Wildfires. Hornets and rattlesnakes. Hornets and rattlesnakes. So let me let me re let me give you a a conversation I have with my children, a few different conversational snippets. And then I want you to take this and I just I just want you to run with it, Nathan, because I because I know you will. Because we often run into sloppy lines of thinking when it comes to how we make our way in the world.
Nathan (05:28.022)
Wasps, hornets, and rattlesnakes. It's all part of the yeah.
Cameron (05:53.131)
One of them one of the conversations I have with my children goes like this. I love tigers. They're absolutely beautiful. I would prefer not to have a tiger in our house though. So we're talking about the beauty of different organisms. Another one, let's go back to Glenda and Gertie, the fate of the two. My one so f first and only f perhaps only foray into let's hope it's coming back, but
Nathan (06:18.792)
I think it's coming back. Backyard chickens for Cameron in the future.
Cameron (06:23.36)
I would I really want to. But so Glenda and Gertie, one day we we woke up and Glenda and Gertie were no more. Gertie was only a trail of feathers going up a fence. And Glenda, well, she was a little bit less she was there, but not as I knew her. And it a fox had gotten them. And so we had a lot of conversations with the kids. You know, it was the f you know, and a lot of well, the bad fox, this this bad fox. And I said, Well, the fox wasn't bad. And they look at me wide eyed.
Has dad lost all his moral bearings? I said, No, the fox was just being a fox. The fox has to eat. And look at we live in a subdivision that used to be woods. We took away most of the foxes' food. Foxes actually don't by temperament like going into people's yards. They don't like to be in domestic places. They're driven there by desperation. So the fox, in fact, was just following its instincts and being a good fox. So you just don't want a fox crossing the path of your chickens, Nathan.
How are these conversations related to s to what we're talking about overall?
Nathan (07:22.252)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (07:28.908)
The the the the the morality that is is baked into the c so when when your kids say that bad fox
We w w were more likely to use bad than inconvenient or I saw a dead chicken this morning. I was like, bummer. you know, I my kids before getting on the bus, we were moving meat chickens and they're running around back and forth with buckets full of little chicks is hilarious. But to to figure out where it where is the real definition of the moral order in that framework, I put back on you. I put back on me to say I have a role.
As the steward of the life of this chicken who is a vulnerable creature in a world full of foxes, that I always feel the disappointment in myself. If a predator kills one of my animals, I don't feel the disappointment in the predator. Because again, but there's there's there's a theology baked into this where I feel a higher degree of responsibility toward an understanding of the broader ecosystem and what's trying what I see trying to happen under the square feet that the Lord has put me in charge of.
And I was literally an hour ago talking to a neighbor who stopped by to get some eggs, and we were talking about the abundance of Canada geese on the pond over on our neighbor's farm and how that corresponds to whether or not there are foxes that live in an under an abandoned house beside us. So I'm aware of that. And I said to him, hey, the foxes are actually pretty good for voles and rats and rodents and other things that causes problems in the garden. Obviously, you know, try to keep them out of the chickens. But there's this, there's a a a balance there where I'm looking at and seeing the
I think God created foxes and thought they were awesome. Now, whether or not we were supposed to import them from another continent here, you know, but I think so, by the way, it's fine. But there there's a a sense in which I want to put the the ethical responsibility back on the human, not on the animal or on nature. But I mean, just as a thought experiment, think about the difference between watching a wall of water knock buses off of a bridge in Tibet.
Nathan (09:34.239)
And watching a video of US missiles blowing the back end out of Iranian oil tankers. There's there's a difference there. Or is there? is it just nature playing its course, or is there a a sense in which one of those we see we call things an act of God, and one we call an act of, hey, don't shoot at our navy navy, or there are consequences. So the the
Cameron (09:36.958)
Okay.
Nathan (10:01.206)
The issue really isn't nature here. It's it's the way in which humans see themselves situated within the the dynamic of complex situations with yeah, just a lot of variables and us trying to manage them the best we can.
Cameron (10:03.887)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (10:14.425)
So I think a couple of things are going on here. We are complicating what appeared to be a very simple conversation. And what where you are complicating it specifically, Nathan, is I think we're tempted when we see natural, so-called natural disasters. We're we're tempted to think purely in terms of victimization. We we're victims of the natural world, and so we might run to a it's a fallen order. But
Let's let's br let's think more carefully here again. And we wanna tr we want to tread carefully because we're we're speaking about one very recent horrendous tragedy and who even knows what the the death count is and that's
Nathan (10:56.132)
all, but more people than that are gonna die from mosquitoes and all sorts of things today. So I mean that's a a concentrated version. but this is the reality that all of us experience from your mother's cancer to fill in the blank. So yeah, that we're equal we are not heartless or nor do we have our head in the sand when it comes to recognizing the way in which this conversation impacts us all.
Cameron (11:00.74)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Cameron (11:10.575)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (11:18.915)
No.
So here are some factors we need to consider.
The world is is broken. We know that. And there is I mean, the big shadow over everything is mortality. There is death in the world and and all of the all of the variations of death, disease, pestilence, all of that. But what we also need to there are also depredations in the natural world, and we are the authors of those depredations. There is some there is such a thing as, you know, soil erosion that's taking place on a massive scale.
Nathan (11:53.367)
Well the the American chestnut is no more because some guy in Medford, Massachusetts was trying to breed a better silkworm and well bam, you've totally altered the entire ecosystem of the east coast of the United States.
Cameron (12:00.942)
Right.
Cameron (12:05.975)
You live in a state that's been ravaged by st strip mining operations and so many others as well. There are devastating consequences economically, but there are also there are natural there are disasters that happen as a result of these kinds of human abuses as well. So that's an
Nathan (12:27.372)
Yeah, our capacity to poison things is well documented.
Cameron (12:30.221)
Well documented. So there is that. There is another factor here. And this is very complex, but it's in my experience, we sometimes fail to take this one into account. There are people who through various sometimes there is there's pride involved in hubris. People move into regions or places that are not very safe to live in.
Nathan (12:52.972)
Mm, mm-hmm.
Cameron (12:53.207)
Some people are there by economic displacement and poverty. And so they they can't they can't get out of those those areas. But one one one thing I always point to, Nathan, is we talk a lot about how technology is never n it's it's never neutral. Even something as seemingly amazing and wonderful and convenient and morally innocuous as an air conditioning unit. But the air conditioning unit, of course, meant that people started building homes.
in places that w that were some that were at temperatures that were usually not very h h hospitable to human life.
Nathan (13:28.248)
Well, so so so like I let's use that for an example, because I was just having this conversation with somebody who had come back from Vegas, and I was like, Don't you get the sense flying into Vegas, whose idea was it to build a city here? Like, I mean, but there is a little like a little green patch there that some Mormons settled that apparently at one time there was enough water there to to sustain life for a small settlement settlement of people. What technology does is ramp that up beyond perhaps the
Cameron (13:31.075)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (13:58.682)
Capacities.
Nathan (13:59.479)
capacity of that footprint to produ to to support the number of people that are that are on it. I mean there's a reason that gambling rather than crop production is the economy there. So it it it it it's hard it's hard to say good like I think God made deserts because he he liked them. Let's go with that for you know like like it's the a desert is yeah it and it has its own whole set of animals and
Cameron (14:21.113)
Course. Yes. They're good. They're beautiful.
Cameron (14:26.767)
Should we necessarily have cities on you think about even Los Angeles, Nathan, where people, we're in drought, we're in drought. Well what is Los Angeles is a city built on a in a pretty dry spot. Yeah. You don't say that to be callous or heartless. You say that because these days we we we have taken for granted what you just said earlier. There there may have been one small little oasis there. But technology
Nathan (14:39.521)
In a dry spot.
Cameron (14:56.707)
these days, especially, you know, in our in our world as it is now, almost always leads us or pushes us to live way beyond our means when it comes to our natural habitat.
Nathan (15:07.938)
Well but okay, s so but here's where I think it takes human discernment because not I I you and I are both fans of technology. think about the fact that the human lungs normally work on their own. Watch this. You know, I can I can breathe, it's great. But if there's an accident and one of my lungs is collapsed and they can intubate me and and technologically you know, s simulate lung lung movement and oxygen flow and keep me alive and patch me up and send me back out in the world, like that's thumbs up.
Cameron (15:14.711)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Nathan (15:37.613)
So this is the challenge of so much good has come from housing, from shelter, from food, from medicine, from that hydroelectric dams in Nepal, I'm sure, were an incredible way to generate electricity for that region. So it's it's I think we go on these like hot streaks of innovation, and then something like this just comes along and kind of
punches our idealism in the face. And that's what sets us back on the ropes. And we have to re recalibrate and ask this question, what is the world? So it's it's in light of the successes that we've had, because to say, the world is fallen or broken is very different than a majority historical perspective in which you would look at something like that and say, the gods hate us, who sinned and what sacrifices do we offer to make it stop? That's that's putting the the burden back on the
that that that that may be no, I think it's fair to say that's been the majority perspective globally speaking.
Cameron (16:36.367)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (16:43.612)
absolutely. Yeah. And remains
Nathan (16:46.016)
Not that nature's broken, but that the humans are the ones who did something to tick off the gods who are n the now trying to squish us.
Cameron (16:52.557)
Right. And that remains the perspective around the world, most of the world to to this day as well.
Nathan (16:58.082)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (16:59.897)
We're talking about I want us to start talking there are two words that I think are really important in this conversation. One of them is is stewardship, and then the other one is dominion as distinct from domination. I think I'd love to hear you talk about about those, Nathan, because you've been thinking the reason I keep I'm I'm not interrogating Nathan. He's he's been living responsibly and in a way that gives him a unique credibility here.
Nathan (17:14.456)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (17:30.451)
One a credibility I don't have living where I do in the suburbs, just to be perfectly frank with you.
Nathan (17:32.953)
Well I I so so so to give you like maybe where is this balance between domin dominion and stewardship? And then we'll probably want to talk about eschatology and protology too. But the funny story in our family one time we pulled up and and my grandpa had a fence post on the lathe and he was basically turning it down into a large wooden bat. And my brother said to him, What are you what are you making? He Well that he's I'm I'm making a bull educator.
And and and Abe said, What's a bull educator? And grandpa said, Well, theologically, the Lord has given me dominion over this creature, but right now the bull's a little confused with his theology. and so there there is a a hilarious sense there where my grandfather recognized that this animal outweighed him tenfold, was far more powerful, and could basically do whatever it wanted. So he was making a stick to protect himself from what was about to happen. and so it was sort of a chuckling way of recognizing
We are not the strongest. We are not the most powerful. Yet we do have some responsibility given to us. I think Psalm eight is a beautiful look at this where we look up and recognize their insignificance and then recognize that God has granted us a responsibility over the birds of the air and the fish of the sea and the the the beasts of the field and all that swims, the paths of the deep. and that all of that is returned back to God in praise. and so I think you can build a concept of private property out of
designated stewardship and to say that God is pleased for you to have things, material possessions, land, space, but we look at that as a gift from God. And then He has a way, an oughtness of the way in which we handle those possessions and live and work with them. And so that that distinction there between dominion being I can conquer this and this is a gift to me that is to be used in a
Cameron (19:09.967)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (19:26.863)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (19:27.486)
way and for a reason that transcends me and my own desires and wants, those are light years away in the outworking that they have for the way in which we treat not just the creatures in the land around us, but also the people around us. And that's that this is this is imperative. And and maybe let me jump ahead again here before you respond to that to say this is baked into the reason of why do you think God created the world?
And what would be Yeah, I would boy, wouldn't it be fun to have everybody who who who's listening right now chime in to say, what is the reason that you were taught that God created the world? Sunday school, flannel graph, power point, Jesus storybook, Bible. What do you want to hazard a guess, Cameron, what maybe what some of those top ones would be?
Cameron (20:06.159)
Yeah.
Cameron (20:16.479)
man. Yeah. Well I'm gonna give you I'm not gonna give you a guess. I'm gonna give you something from my own experience. And I think you'll have to you have a little little bit of work on your hands with it. But and I I think this was communicated with the best of intentions. And I think I would also say that I that it is something that we struggle with as evangelicals. I'm gonna pick on my people in particular here.
And it goes something like this Yes, God created everything from nothing, and He created you and me in His own image. So that means we are endowed with inestimable worth and He loves us. And the important thing is that you need to give your you need to recognize G you need to believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior, surrender your life to him, and then you will find salvation.
And then eventually, you know, you'll get through this life. Get through this life because it's hard. It's a veil of tears. It's like a kind of spiritual obstacle course and you have to clear it. But eventually, by God's grace, you will clear that obstacle course and then you'll be in heaven with God. And that's the meaning of everything.
Nathan (21:31.736)
And the earth disappears in that narrative.
Cameron (21:34.723)
And the earth yeah, and then but yeah, you leave the earth behind you leave the obstacle course behind. And then you go to heaven.
Nathan (21:38.627)
Yeah. No, I no, I think that's probably I'd I'd give you a plus on s on standard narrative, I think. Yeah, no, but I think that's fair. A and maybe I mean, I don't think there's any Sunday school teacher who ever sat down and said those words in that exact order, but that is the implied framework there that does see now you do get some some deeper perhaps Trinitarian
Cameron (21:42.007)
I'm trying not to do a trying not to be a caricature. Yeah, I'm trying to say that in yeah. Okay.
Cameron (21:52.247)
No. Yeah.
Nathan (22:06.404)
thoughts on the the outworking and the overflowing of the love of God and the necessary creativity that is inherent within the Godhead. You have some of those beautiful passages about the the angels rejoicing and singing at creation as this being a a work of beauty and art and they're seeing a part of the unfolding of the r of the plan that God has for reality. And so I think actually the the the framework that you gave is good.
But we might want to press into a l is is it's it's necessary, but I would say maybe insufficient. to say that, well, what what does salvation mean to be saved? And I like John Jefferson Jefferson Davis's definition that salvation is when my true self is in proper relationship with ultimate reality.
Cameron (22:42.391)
Yeah, that's a good way of putting it.
Cameron (22:57.369)
Good. It's very good. Yeah.
Nathan (22:58.476)
That that's a that's a that's a big and a bold and that works across different you can plug that in a whole lot of religious traditions and and even our religious traditions, but to say what what is my true self? Made in the image of God, what is ultimate reality? The the triune, you know, God that within Christian Orthodoxy was a proper relationship is established betwe because of the work of Christ. So that that works in that, but it's with ultimate reality and if we see the physical world as part of an ultimate reality that God created and declared to be good, then
that slows us down, I think, on on making hyper flippant characterizations of
Good, good or bad on I remember as a kid, one of my gr ancestors, maybe his grandparent, said like Satan had to have created wasps and hornets. What good do they do? you know, and it's and it's and it wasn't a real belief because Satan doesn't create, but it was a lack of ecological awareness of the amount of insects that wasps and hornets eat, and they're actually wonderful for your garden. Now, not fun to get stung by, but they do serve a role and a purpose that they did just didn't know about at that moment.
Cameron (23:56.772)
Yeah.
Cameron (24:01.583)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (24:07.884)
So the there's a there's a sense there that that leads to a a humility to say we have more to discover about how the world works, but there's also a part of that that then means that now means more than we think, not just as a yeah, how did you you phrase like a testing ground or the you know it's a an obstacle course that you have to get through to get to the n survive this to get to heaven. And there is a
Cameron (24:31.385)
Yeah.
Survive this to get to heaven.
Nathan (24:37.854)
a huge amount of Maranatha come Lord Jesus in the New Testament, but that's largely in response to persecution from other humans, not because we think there's a deficiency in the percentage of the salt water in the Pacific Ocean.
Cameron (24:46.884)
Right.
Cameron (24:53.485)
It's a response to the the biblical what the Bible calls the the world connoting the h the fallen human order, not the not the creation, not the created order. Yeah.
Nathan (24:59.501)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (25:04.662)
Yep. Yeah, so so the yeah, pride, lust, the desires of the human heart is seen as the world order, not c you even have like the the old back in the day, turn your eyes upon Jesus, look full in his wonderful f face, and the things on earth will grow strangely dim in the light of his glory and grace. that's not to say that Jesus didn't enjoy grapevines and fig trees and donkeys and cattle and earthworms. That's to say that
Cameron (25:08.685)
Yes. Yeah.
Cameron (25:20.985)
Yes.
Cameron (25:28.719)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (25:34.316)
the pride, the the lust, the the the flesh, yeah. does does not autum isn't isn't born to automatically be in harmony with the rest of creation.
Cameron (25:37.337)
Flesh. The yeah, what the Bible also calls flesh, the human powers. Yeah. Yep.
Cameron (25:48.014)
Let's let's go back to that wasp comment for a second. Because I think that's there's actually something quite profound there, Nathan. So I was you know, I was in my bathroom the other day and up out of the the drain of the the sink came er erupted a cockroach moving at an uncanny speed. And I could have said, where did this messenger of hell come from? But I remember telling my son Dylan not too long ago.
No, wait, God God is God is amazing. And yes, we all love horses, ponies, and rainbows, but he also created Anglerfish and the cockroach. And no, they're not messengers of hell. They are testaments also to the wisdom of his creation, to how wildly and dangerously creative he actually is. And the fact that we feel alienated from certain parts of the world doesn't mean that
There's something wrong with them, it means we're out of sync with the world. We are out of harmony with it. And we, I think where we're going, Nathan, is that we are awaiting. And there is a spectrum here. I will say this, but Nathan, both, both, for all of our theological differences, we're both on the same page here. We are awaiting a world. Not some ethereal realm, but a world. And not some complete start from scratch, everything is but a restrained.
Stored world.
Nathan (27:18.636)
Well, and the and there's a a a deep lesson to pull out of the physical the concept of the physical resurrection here, that you're not looking forward to a spiritual resurrection where you go to float to be on a cloud with a harp. That's that's not a vi a biblical vision. You're looking to a physical like having a physical body. Now it it'll be more physical than what we currently know, and that'll have some neat features to it if Jesus' resurrected body is any indication, but it's it's not less than physical.
and so there's there's that part of it that we we we are there's there's it's like hmm. I'm gonna say this out loud, even though I'm not exactly sure if it's right or not. There there's almost an adolescent awkwardness to human you know, when you wat you're watching somebody go through the changes and their voice is weird or maybe they've grown really quickly quickly and they're lanky and they lose their coordination, or like we've all been there.
It's there there's a there's a goodness to what is coming, but it's in a awkward stage of development where it's it it's not quite as it should be and therefore it causes problems. and so this this yeah, go ahead.
Cameron (28:32.297)
Yeah, th I like that. Well, I was gonna say of all the the inhabitants of the planet, we are the most awkward because we are the most special. We're made in the image of God, which means we have I mean, which by the way, there's no easy way to say what precisely that means in a few sentences, but we all know that human beings are different. Okay. We don't have as as amazing as chimpanzees can be and apes, they're not taking us to the moon.
And they're not reading poetry to each other and they're not navel gazing what the world is and what their place is in the world. We do that and that's why often even if you look Yeah.
Nathan (29:06.146)
Sitting around wondering what the world is.
Nathan (29:14.988)
But but but you you are made to contemplate that every bit as much as a fox is made to eat a chicken.
Cameron (29:20.675)
Yes, it's part of you it is that's your nature. That is part of your nature. But we are still growing into what we're made to be. And I think part of this is a whole separate conversation. I'm just gonna say it because part of I've been wrestling with image of God questions for years and years because I've a lot of the current stuff on it, there's a lot of really good it's a lot of value there, but it it feels incomplete and superficial. And some
Some of the church fathers and some of the theologians working in more drawing from more ancient wells are going to say that part of the image of God is it's in development in you and reaches completion when you come face to face with your maker. The complete picture of it is Jesus Christ.
Nathan (30:11.136)
Well, somebody in Romans eight should have written something about being predestined to be conformed to the image of the sun. Would have been a
Cameron (30:17.015)
Right. And so it's not that you don't it's it's not that you don't you know you know you're not you don't have the image of God, yes, but it's that you have not yet come to that place of of completion. So
Nathan (30:29.768)
So so maybe a missing link in here for people who are confused about what we're saying. Cameron and I, I'm going to speak for you, Cameron, then you can clarify, believe that in the new heavens and the new earth there will be hurricanes, mudslides, tornadoes, massive floods, thunderstorms, wildfires, and there's not going to kill anybody. And it will be the equivalent of because those all serve ecological functions in a world that God created and said it is good. But think about I love watching thunderstorms, particularly from my porch.
Cameron (30:36.355)
Go for it.
Cameron (30:43.415)
Wildfires, yeah.
Nathan (30:59.082)
You know, it's not wet, but the it's it's a it's a splendid and awesome, and I mean that in the theological sense. my daughter was on a camping trip up on a mountaintop watching a series of thunderstorms in another state, and it was a amazing thing. She was awestruck by it. That that is going to be more similar to our relationship with nature in the new heavens and new earth. Think of think of the little boy who builds a sand castle.
Cameron (31:03.513)
Same. Yeah.
Nathan (31:26.032)
And you've done this, hopefully all of you had a chance to do this. You build a sand castle, and then the the tide starts coming in, and then you go through this phase of like digging ditch ditches and trenches and maybe some mounds. So you try to protect the sand castle for a little bit, and then at some point a big wave comes and and destroys it. And the natural childhood response to that is not weeping and gnashing of teeth, it's usually celebration and cheering. Have you ever noticed that?
Cameron (31:55.033)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (31:55.605)
It's you built the sand castle with the expectation that it would be destroyed. You knew this was coming. And so I think a lot of our interaction with the natural world in a in a fullness and a grown up sense in which we're walking with God and we have a heads up on when the when the s the the the flash flood isn't going to come and wipe out the village. The flash flood is going to be foretold and we'll all go sit on the bank and be amazed at it. There's a a different sense there of our our relationship
The intimacy of our relationship with God changes the degree to which we're intimately connected with his creation across the board. And that's why you actually we quoted quoted from Romans eight about being conformed to the image of the Son. But prior to that, in Romans eight, it talks about all creation groaning, longing for and awaiting the redemptions. Yeah. And so this idea of the redemption of the sons of men and creation having a sense of not yet, and and even the the souls of those who are slain that are under the altar in revelation of how long, O Lord.
That there is a longing not for an escapism from physical creation, but for a renewal and a reestablishment of our proper harmony and balance with the world that God created and said was very good. And yes, that is out of whack, but that doesn't mean that we don't have real responsibilities now, meaningful work now, and meaningful hope of what it all means in the future.
Cameron (33:00.825)
Hmm.
Cameron (33:21.279)
Very well said. And nothing I speak for me more often because I have nothing to add. But you've been listening to Thinking Out Loud, a podcast where we think out loud about current events and Christian hope. If you like what we're doing, come on. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink. No, I mean t tell tell somebody. Tell people. All right. Like, share, subscribe. You know you want to.