Evangelicalism, Tacky Churches, and the Search for Authentic Worship
Cameron (00:00)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co host, Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:04)
And I'm your co host, Nathan Rittenhouse.
Cameron (00:06)
I want to begin with a book recommendation, and that is Bonnie Christians in Defense of Evangelicalism. I think this is a necessary book, Nathan.
Nathan (00:16)
Well, I I told you that it might be good for you to read.
Cameron (00:19)
I've been waiting for a book like this to come along for a little while. So I grew up as an evangelical. They are my people. I'm eternally grateful. They nurtured my faith. And I'm uncomfortable with it.
Nathan (00:33)
And they irritate you to no end.
Cameron (00:35)
Yes, I mean, in some ways that's just a the description of all the people with whom you're the most close, I suppose.
Nathan (00:40)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (00:41)
My favorite definition of an evangelical, Nathan, is a person an evangelical is a person who argues about what it means to be an evangelical.
Nathan (00:48)
You're right.
Cameron (00:50)
But we're not actually here to talk about this, isn't book review. So, I mean, my book review is
Nathan (00:54)
That might come later.
Cameron (00:56)
that my c well, so my book for yeah, Reader's Digest version, book review, it's a good book. You should read it. And I think also, I'll say this. If I were a person who was critical of evangelicalism in any way, whether you're a person who is would say you're deconstructing, or whether you're somebody looking at evangelicalism, sort of looking askance from afar, whatever, you really can't afford to ignore this book.
It's it's a quick read, but she's pretty thorough. I think she hits basically all of the major objections and hang ups that people have in each chapter, and she's really done her research. So yeah. If you liked Jesus and John Wayne or Beth Allison Barr, some of these other books that have come out and sold really well, you really can't afford to miss this one. So that's all I'll say there. Now, having said that, I'm I've
Nathan (01:47)
That's high praise from Cameron.
Cameron (01:49)
got one
Yeah. I've got one part of the book that and by the way, Nathan, you know you know Bonnie Christian a little bit, right?
Nathan (02:00)
Tangentially,
Cameron (02:00)
Yes.
Nathan (02:01)
yeah. She was a little older and wiser than I was, but we went to the same college. Yeah.
Cameron (02:07)
Okay, so funny little point of connection there. She is also an editor at Christianity Today. So all right. That said, the one there's one question I have w with with with regard to the book. Really one and I think I have a little bit of a pushback here, but we'll see. I want to tease this out. So she has a she has a line in there that is almost a throwaway line, and the internet being the internet.
One thing led to another, and Franz Ferdinand was shot. No, I'm just kidding. But this thing spiraled out of out of control and became a whole nother conversation. The line is tackiness is not a sin. It's important it's important to to give some context here. So she's talking about evangelicalism. So when you think about evangelicalism in the United States, tackiness, I think, will make a lot of sense. At the end of the book, one of the comparisons she makes is that evangelicalism, she's borrowing this from Daniel Silliman.
Evangelicalism is a little bit like Walmart. So Silliman had said, I like to go to Whole Foods sometimes. And so, you know, you go to Whole F Whole Foods, and this is a very fancy gourmet kind of place. I feel very refined when I'm in there, and I'm with all these refined, elegant people. That's not the experience when you go to Walmart. Anyone could be in Walmart. Yeah, I don't I'm sure you've been to the website at some point in your life, Nathan, people of Walmart dot com. You've yeah, consider yourselves warned.
But yeah, anybody could be there. And that's more the feeling of evangelicalism. This big tent includes so many crazy uncles and can be quite tacky and embarrassing. So you have tacky big box churches, fog machines or smoke machines, and contemporary Christian worship. These are some of the examples that Bonnie Christian lists in the book. So a good bit of what she's doing in that in the book
And N Nathan's read it as well, so you can chime in here too if you if if you need to. But a good deal of what she's doing is defending evangelicals from some attacks that are just plain mali some of them which are which are malicious, and some of them that hold evangelicals to a double standard, or some of them that view everything through s through suspicious eyes. And that's it's in that context
Nathan (04:26)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (04:26)
that she says, Look.
Tackiness, yes, there's there's some tacky stuff there. Is but it's not a sin. She Griffin Gooch interviewed her about the book and really liked the line, and so asked her a little bit about that. She answered along the lines of the book, and then the comment sec section just went wild. And so this led her then to go and pen a whole nother post on her sub stack. Are you following so far?
Nathan (04:55)
Yeah.
Cameron (04:56)
One substack leads to another about tackiness and she expanded on her thoughts and as is typical with her, she was quite thorough. She looks at the actual Merriam Webster's definition of the word tacky. She shows how it's actually quite class coded in its origins. So it was being used to describe people who had didn't have refined taste, were perhaps lower on the socioeconomic ladder, that kind of thing.
And so again, she draws on that to say, Yes, these things are real. I myself am quite a snob, but it's not a sin. And so my question, Nathan, is what if it is?
Nathan (05:39)
Well, can can you back up and give us her definition or what are you meaning when you say tacky? 'Cause this is gonna I we might we might have some different perceptions here.
Cameron (05:46)
Well what she means is is just Yeah, I mean
Well, I mean the big she goes to the she literally pulls out the Merriam Webster's dictionary and yeah, it just refers to people who have essentially unrefined taste. Class consciousness is a very important aspect of that. And so people who perhaps lack lack that refinement because of lower levels of education, income, that kind of thing. And so that's that's really where she goes with with tackiness.
If you really try to push too hard into a definition, these things can be more difficult. There's another word that is not the same, but it it comes to mind here, and that's kitsch. Kitsch is notoriously difficult
Nathan (06:31)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (06:32)
to explain in in formal terms. Everybody knows it when they s when they see it, but it's much harder to actually spell it out. But so in that sense
Tackiness would be, I'm gonna give an example, Nathan. And you actually had an earlier example when we were talking about this that I think is really helpful. But if you think in terms of art, tacky, a Thomas Kincaid painting versus a Van Gogh painting. All right. Both might depict a landscape. One of them would be tacky, the other would would would not. Why why is the Kincaid one tacky? Well, it's awfully colorful, it's awfully sentimental.
It's it looks a little bit like a fantasy. It's clearly a sentimentalized vision of reality. Then go, you're not getting any of that sentimentalism. You're getting a much deeper and more r a rich kind of depiction of life as it is. So I mean and again, is it wrong to for somebody who just naturally likes the Thomas Kincaid painting? Is is that in itself a sin? Well, no, I don't think that would be. But my question on on
with regard to tackiness overall and evangelicalism, because it goes to the heart of some of my problems with evangelicalism. My question there is perhaps saying is it a si maybe it is a sin is a little too is a little too strong, but it's an outworking, I think, of something that is at the very least not morally neutral.
Nathan (08:04)
Let me let me pontificate here for a minute and see if this can can help us make any headway. so for me, I d I do think there is a a a s a significant degree to which this is economically class differentiated on what our what our descriptions and divisions are there. And so I would make a distinction between refinement and intentionality when you look at this. and I and I think the Bible does as well.
so I would say that I have enjoyed s visiting some churches, and you have a a dinner after church and it's KFC on styrofoam plates with Hawaiian punch. That that does not tick any of the refinement boxes of anybody who's interested in the definition of refinement. However, it was what the people were enjoying. It was easy for people didn't have to miss church to prepare it.
There was a lot of laughter and fellowship and a good time and there was, yeah, just tremendous yeah, people just enjoying being together. So there's that element of it. And and I think there's a whole list of proverbs about, you know, better a crust of bread where there's contentment than, you know, fill in the blank of of the grandeur on the other side of that. So I I see that. She's talking about the big box stores that do look like a Walmart, and have the smoke machines and
And that sort of thing. And and so this is where I would the question that I I I guess I'm asking of i the actions that we're participating in under the guise of worship or Christian fellowship, do they look like we're being intentional about this being a sacred and an important thing? And so for a lot of people, you're going to look at a building that looks like
I mean, there are so many jokes about this that it was you know, was it a hay barn beforehand? Was it a dispensary that closed down? Was it an A B
Cameron (10:04)
Yeah.
Nathan (10:04)
C store that was converted? so the architecture itself does not have anything that points it to saying that the physical space is a part of our vision of the sacred and of our worship. and then there are elements of it that look far more like entertainment than worship. I think the person who is thinking about Moses' prayer, where he's
asking for God's glory to be made known in the presence of the people as the as the pinnacle of the experience of worship are gonna say, No, I could, you know, I could get this at the local Chuck E. Cheese, just as easy. is Chucky Cheese even a thing anymore? I don't know. I'm just saying words now. but but it's a it's a it's a it's
Cameron (10:43)
It is, unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan (10:46)
a fabricated hype
Cameron (10:48)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (10:48)
that we it's the that Rich Mullins line, that's not the Holy Spirit, that's the kick drum.
That there's a a sense there of are we communicating that we're real and and and the other side of this is is I've been in some very high church situations too, Cameron, where I could ask the same question. That obviously there's a very economic upper crust. The the higher echelon is well represented, and the whole thing is dry and repetitious and stilted. And I also get
a sense of like, are we really being intentional about what we're trying to do here? And so I don't know how to lean into, I mean, so I live at a place where the closest Walmart is 60 miles away and people are thrilled that it's there because it's the biggest, closest place to buy a lot of groceries. It's not like that you're not choosing there isn't another alternative, basically is what I'm saying. And so I I think it's important that so I think maybe that's some of the reason that I'm sensitive to the
How do we
as yeah, as a Walmart shopper speaking to you here, who does enjoy refinement, maybe in the arts and some other categories of a of a sense of balancing out the degree between intentionality and refinement. Does that does
Cameron (12:11)
Mm.
Nathan (12:11)
I and I don't run with that for a second, 'cause I'm not
exactly sure that it's a a thing.
Cameron (12:14)
yeah. I think
that's very helpful. And I think it's also important that we point out that evangelicalism does not have a corner on the market when it comes to tackiness. And because I've there are a couple of Catholics who weighed in here as well and said, Hey, okay, yeah, we high church, sure, but there are some really tacky Catholic attempts at engaging the culture. Trust us. So I mean it was it was good to we can balance out the roster here with with, you know, there are plenty of high church traditions that are also
Get tacky when they're trying to be cool. Okay.
Nathan (12:46)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (12:46)
Evangelicals, I think, are much more prone to it though. So that is real.
Nathan (12:49)
Well wait
hang on, you I mean you might you may have given us a good link there. You said when trying to be cool. And and I
Cameron (12:55)
Yes.
Nathan (12:56)
think that actually is the the the the I've always said that whenever the church tries to chase culture, it's almost always two years behind, which is enough time for that thing that was cool to already have passed. And so you're i like church cool is
Cameron (13:10)
Mm-hmm. Sure.
Nathan (13:13)
sort of like two years ago cool secular. So I I would rather churches not even try.
basically of saying like what is really
Cameron (13:20)
Sure. Well
Nathan (13:22)
what is really driving and generating the activity? Is it a moral vision of worshiping the Lord and spirit and truth and fellowship with our brothers and sisters in Christ? Or is it some sort of marketing esque you know what I'm saying.
Cameron (13:39)
Yeah, let me give you some of my bona fide days here real quickly. There is a garage door in our sanctuary, in the sanctuary of my church, and we now hand out complimentary earplugs for the worship. So I know a little bit
Nathan (13:53)
Yeah.
Cameron (13:54)
about this is this is where I worship, okay? So these are my people, and I'm one of them. All right. I like what you're saying though, and I think it's really important. So when I think of my experience with evangelicals here.
And my experience with evangelicals overseas. Now remember remember I was I was born in Europe, so we we did this is these are evangelical conferences in Germany and in Holland and Poland. So some of the words that come to mind for those, they would certainly wouldn't be refined or anything like that. They wouldn't they wouldn't be tasteful, but sincerity, authenticity, purity. These are words and I th I those came to mind when I thought about your example of KFC and Hawaiian Punch.
I've been to those diners too, and drinking out of styrofoam cups. And I think of beautiful, sincere, hospitable, loving, lovely people. People who would give you the shirt off their back, people who would change a tire for you instantly, who would, you know, if if a w you know, if there's a a pipe burst in your house, they're over there and they are in the mess of it and in the in the heat of your attic. They're they're helping you. So there is something undeniably beautiful.
about that. And actually Bonnie Christian talks a little bit about that. And it's hard to put that into words because this is a kind of this is a kind of beauty that has that really is deeply tied to intentionality, as you said, Nathan. So it's not flashy. And there's something very scriptural about that too, actually. A lot of what is represented as as glorious and beautiful in scripture has a hidden
dimension to it. It has a moral purity
Nathan (15:37)
Mm-hmm. And and
Cameron (15:38)
that transcends its kind of homely look or feel.
Nathan (15:42)
Yeah, I I think
if you look at the the the breaking of bread scenes where it's like barley loaves, so you have a very common, very coarse, blessed meal. it's not that I don't know what what was the you know, the fancy fish filet or whatever of Jesus' time, but it wasn't there were times that he partied and that he feasted, but a lot of that imagery he invites the yeah.
the the disciples to a a meal of bread and fish over a coal fire. It's the fellowship and the intentionality and the wisdom that's sp in the spoken word there that that is the binding thing of this being a spiritual experience, not the amount of funding that went into the fireworks show that goes along with
Cameron (16:25)
And of course there is the fact that a lot of the disciples are just blue collar working class fishermen, very unrefined. That's actually pointed out by critics in scripture. So that's th these are some of the heroes of the faith. It's not true of all of them. You know, the apostle Paul, of course, is a little bit more educated. But would it be too much to say, Nathan, I think some people when so Cameron, here you are talking about the garage door and your sanctuary and all that, some people might point to the conversation that Jesus has with the woman at the well.
And she's very, very concerned with the question of proper worship, and she's and it's all about because of some of the disputes of her day, it's all about the location. You know, you Jews say it's it has to be here at the temple, and Jesus appears to be gesturing to something a lot more cosmic, something that's not bound to buildings.
And formal ceremonies. I think some people
Nathan (17:18)
Mm-hmm. Well
Cameron (17:20)
might point to, you know, a day is coming and has already come where where people will gather all around the world to worship the Lord in spirit and in truth. So I think some Exactly, yeah, I think some people
Nathan (17:27)
Yeah, and it won't be on this mountain or that mountain. The
Cameron (17:30)
might point there and say, Yeah, that that probably fits here within this whole tackiness conversation,
Nathan (17:36)
So
Cameron (17:37)
especially as it pertains to people being drawn to high church traditions, that sort of thing.
Nathan (17:44)
What what what are we saying here, Cameron, I think is that
Cameron (17:51)
Well, I'm still saying this might be a sin. So I'm I'm just trying to give as strong a an an argument
Nathan (17:51)
Symbols w yeah, yeah, yeah, but but I'm
Cameron (17:56)
for and Bonnie Christian goes to an Anglican church, by the way. It's worth bringing that. She she's open about that. So
she she's a high church person these days.
Nathan (18:01)
The No no but I'm I'm saying we might we might
The the question is is what does the action or the icon point to?
Cameron (18:12)
Mm. Mm.
Nathan (18:13)
And I think you'd have a lot of evangelicals who would be appalled at the use of iconography within the Greek Orthodox tradition and then would turn around and have
Cameron (18:20)
Yeah. Sure.
Nathan (18:21)
a deeply a deeply held
Cameron (18:24)
We've got one for
Nathan (18:25)
set of convictions around specific icons that would okay, yeah. You see where I'm going with this and run.
Cameron (18:30)
I got a ta
I've got an icon for you. Well, Bonnie Christian's Christian supplied it. So and it's actually if you go to her Substack, and you should go to her Substack and read this article, by the way, so you can get her full perspective without any paraphrase from me. But she has a picture of this and she calls it Football Jesus. And it's a picture of Jesus holding a ch a child.
Who is but who's been playing a game of football? He has a football helmet on. It's a painting of him holding and the child is smiling. Jesus is smiling. And, you know, this is
Nathan (19:02)
I've never seen this.
Cameron (19:03)
I haven't either. It was a new emo it was a new one on me. And her and her friends had this joke where if they dog sat or cat sat for somebody, they would sneak this painting onto the wall of their house or something like that. So it circulated. So pretty funny idea. So take that painting. Let me
Point out, I mean, I I'll do the typical academic thing. I'm gonna point out a few features about it. First of all, this Jesus is a very white, very Aryan looking Jesus. So that's that's far from morally neutral. It is a very it's a it's fairly suburban contemporary spin on Jesus. So I just sound like such a grouch and a killjoy pointing all of this out. But my point is I don't
This this icon, if we're gonna call it that, or this work of art w in scare quotes, is not I'm trying to just say it's not morally neutral. And if somebody sees that and finds it comforting or soothing, I do think we have if somebody the see, it's it's it's interesting to me that Bonnie Christian and her friends they're they're you they're looking at it in ironic terms. They sneak it onto each other's walls 'cause it's it's funny.
But what if somebody unironically loves it? I think that's I don't th is the person necessarily sinning? No, but I think something I think that is that belies a sensibility that's wrong, that's deficient, that is perhaps based on a deficient view of God, even. So there I go. So I'm just putting my cards on the table, showing just how bad of an idea it is to invite me over to your home. But
Nathan (20:49)
Yeah.
Cameron (20:50)
But I just I don't
think so. In this particular instance, I don't think this this painting is morally neutral. I don't think smoke machines are morally neutral. And I don't think the big box thing is necess well, we don't we often say that technology is is is never is never neutral, Nathan. So a big box church says something about where we stand, I think. It's it's an
outworking of a certain view of the world
and even perhaps
Nathan (21:24)
Well w
Cameron (21:25)
of God. So that yeah, I'm I'll stop there now.
Nathan (21:28)
Well well let me let me put another variable in here that you you and Bonnie and I are all pretty much the same age. But there is I I should go back and look, Galloper Pew research on this is that millennials do prefer sanctuaries more so than older generations. So I think if you look at the generations above you who maybe did grow up in a stuffier, more rigidly defined definition of what a church is, then for them a lot of these more low church open space
kind of neutral looking
Cameron (22:00)
I mean, wasn't that the part of the Jesus movement?
Nathan (22:04)
I think yeah so th there's a casualness that was that was symbolic of Jesus's open arms, I think, in the whosoever element that has preceded us. So I think there are some generational and then by the time
Cameron (22:19)
Definitely.
Nathan (22:20)
our crew comes back around, we're l we've lived in a world that has been desacralized to the place that we're looking for something
Like an an actual sacred, set apart, holy, sanctus, sanctuary, something that is a can we have one space in our weekly lives that isn't just a total free for all of build your own version of meaning in it. And so that that plays also in this conversation, I think, would be the the generation that you inhabit will matter in this conversation.
Cameron (22:54)
Yeah. I I freely grant that. It's it's odd to see that the way that cycle happens. And I think I don't know as much about the history of the Jesus movement as I'd like to, 'cause it's really interesting. I think it has its beginnings in the nineteen sixties. So we're talking about the crazy a very crazy time in American life, sexual revolution, but we're also talking about hippies and seekers and the the whole hippie sensibility. So
Nathan (23:23)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (23:24)
If you think about the hippie sensibility of Woodstock and, you know, getting out there on the open road, flower power and all that, it doesn't really translate to a high church expressions of Christianity at all. In fact, that would that would come to seem restrictive and claustrophobic and repressive. And so it's in that space, that c well, that context, I think, that a lot of people a lot of people who were boomers eventually ended up at churches where they said, no, we we just want
We want it less stuffy. We want more freedom and just joy to be happy. That's why we I went to the church I went to previously is fairly high church. It has in its liter its its liturgy is structured on the the Book of Common Prayer. And so we had some friends visiting from Australia and they were w went to a big non-denominational church. They
When we were done with the service, we're you know I mean it's not that high church. It's still a Presbyterian church, but we did we recite of the Creeds, we have prayers of the people and things like that. They they it it may as well have been mass, Catholic Mass to them, and it may as well have been Latin. They felt that this was just so how do you do that every week? And I I I just couldn't worship like that. I and of course we're pre because we're Presbyterians, nobody's allowed to display any emotion in the worship. If anybody puts their hands up, it's
You've you violated the unwritten rule. So yeah, I that's that's definitely absolutely, of
Nathan (24:50)
So there are cultural parts to this. Yeah.
Cameron (24:53)
course. Yeah.
Nathan (24:53)
Well so let me let me give you two another thought here. So my my mom's dad one time told me that it is a sin to preach a boring sermon.
And
and what he meant by that is there are some things that are to be revered so highly. So here he's talking about scripture, about spoken word of God, that it's it would be sinful not to put the appropriate level of intentionality into the preparation of the sermon. So you don't you don't do it halfway. You don't and he didn't mean boring like it's gotta be exciting, but he's like if you're communicating truth to a hungry world.
It it can't just be a routine, this is something we're just doing. We all just showed up because this is what we're supposed to. So so it was a it was a drive, it was a push for again what I would say, are we acting like the thing that we're doing is is that serious? you might you might get this feeling at a wedding that isn't a Christian wedding where everybody's just kind of joking around, they're not really taking it seriously, and you're thinking, Well, hang on a second. No, there's
There's an intent there's something that is more deeply intended here that isn't being considered. And so I would so so so
Cameron (26:13)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (26:14)
yeah, I think a lot of those manifestations do of of that lack of intentionality come across as tackiness because it's almost like I I think it's it's what's leading here. Are we just trying to to tack some excitement or or are we trying to tack some Jesus on the back end to our interest in football? Or are we trying to
thoughtfully integrate all the components of our lives into our faith. And and maybe that would be one of the the defining ways that I would see that as well. What what ontologically precedes which action and
Cameron (26:45)
Yeah, I'm Mm-hmm.
Nathan (26:48)
behavior. And that's why you can have wonderful fellowship with a simple meal or you can have
Cameron (26:55)
Yes.
Nathan (26:56)
really cheesy Christian like it's like going to a
Like a special club, like a like a Christian doctors or Christian motorcycle riders or something where you have an activity that clearly everybody is there because of this activity, and then you're just trying to stick faith on the back end of it.
Cameron (27:15)
Mm-hmm. Sure.
Nathan (27:16)
and I'm not picking on doctors or moguls motorcycle riders. I'm anything that has that element of where post hoc trying to
Cameron (27:21)
Faith and yeah.
Nathan (27:23)
put a veneer of Christianity on it always feels tacky to me. And so if there's a
a way in which we're doing that as a church, that's something we should be evaluating for sure.
Cameron (27:33)
I think so. I think another I'm gonna do something I rarely do, and that's offer some practical advice. We have in our midst in the big tent of evangelicals and and evangelicalism, lots of very talented people who are artists. In the past, and I let me just say a a lot of churches are doing this now, actually, and there's wider recognition of this fact. So this is great. But not enough recognition. These people can contribute to the life of the church, but through their works of art.
And so our churches can't could could look a lot better. And we have the people who already in our midst who who can do it. We have the problem is that evangelicalism tends to be quite populist, which means we go for the popular stuff. We want to reach the most people. You know, again
There's beauty mixed in here. This is part of this is why I think I am actually somewhat qualified to talk about this because I love these people and I am one of these people. So the intentions there are so good, but we want to reach as many people as possible. And if you make it too subtle and too esoteric, so in some think about so there is I'm gonna give an example of what I would take to be an evangelical work of art that actually is a great work of art. There aren't many I can point to. And
Spoiler alert, it's not God's Not Dead. It is The Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan. That
Nathan (28:58)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Cameron (28:59)
thing has all that thing has so I mean all of the evangelical sensibilities. It's it's populist. I mean, if you if somebody came to me and gave me told me this as an idea, I would say that's that's pretty tacky. Well, there's gonna be a a figure who represents a the worldly wise man.
And we're gonna call him worldly wise man. Then there's gonna be this other figure, it's gonna represent hope. And we're gonna call him hope. And just, okay, this is this is marvelously unsophisticated and and as unsubtle as it gets. And yet and and by the way, the the Pilgrim's Progress has been ridiculed by many a critic over the years. But I I mean, having read it many times and having recently re reread it, it's a masterpiece. It's great. Now
Well, Dante's Divine Comedy is better, but it's not it's not like Dante's Divine Comedy. These are two there might there may be some thematic somewhat s some s some parallels there, but they're they're not the same thing. They're completely different works of art. And I mentioned God's Not Dead earlier, so I'm I'm not not a fan, but God's Not Dead is definitely
Distant, distant ancestor of John Bunyan. It's not a distant ancestor of Dante or Milton. And so we have this populist tendency where we we want to reach as many people as and sometimes it works. So the Pilgrim's Progress, it works. It's going to reach a ton of people. It's not subtle. But
It's a vivid, wonderful work of the imagination and it has captured something essential about the human experience of the spiritual journey. It really has. We can do that again, but we need to trust our artists. And we we don't usually. We're worried. It's not so much I think it's in the past it's been represented as, well, we're afraid of beauty because it's so, you know, it takes us in dangerous directions. I think it has more, it's more of a practical concern, usually, is how how how are we going to reach the most
People? How are we gonna get the most bang for our buck? And if we do that, we just need quantity over quality. So I'm saying no, let's let's push back. I think there's a good necessary tension within the evangelical fold about this, but let's let's listen to our artists and let's trust them a little bit more and let's let's put them to work.
Nathan (31:32)
Yeah, and can we I mean we we discussed this, I don't know, a month or so ago, the idea of casting pearls before swine or giving what is holy to the dogs. Those are words out of Jesus' mouth that I think do reel us back in a bit to say, do you have things in your life that are sacred enough that you just don't willfully fling them to the masses without an explanation or without some explanation yeah, without some explanation that goes goes along with him.
So that would be to me, Cameron, where I would see a differentiation in the the we haven't used the word cringe yet. We haven't gone that far. but
Cameron (32:09)
yeah. Yep. Sure.
Nathan (32:12)
the the idea that it's it's who's driving the narrative of of whether or not this activity is important. And that to me is if you're saying here's our strategy to bring the most people through the door, I think we've lost the touch. And
We've lost the plot. And so the things to me that look like, this is just like the Harvard Business Review came up with this idea and now we're trying to apply this to our church. Hmm, I think no matter how much money you invest in it or how sharply dressed the people involved are, it's to me it's going to feel tacky and less than it's going to be intentional, but it's not going to be a a biblically faithful representation of us pursuing worshiping the Lord in spirit and truth. So I I think.
I've used this image multiple times before that I envision there's a difference between what I see as a standing embrace and a chasing embrace. so so one is Jesus kind of drawing a line
Cameron (33:11)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (33:12)
and saying, Here's where I stand. And you and we do that as Christians where we say, kind of we've we've drawn a line on the stand, here's where we are, but we stand on that line with our arms wide open and say, Whosoever come, whoever's interested, welcome. Come and join us.
But we we have a foundation, we have a boundary, we have a concept of the sacred, of the oughtness and of proper order and of proper worship, and we're willing for people to come and join us in that order and in that pattern. That's different than a chasing embrace, which says we don't really have a line drawn anywhere, but we are going to try to run around and hug everybody in the world. and so one is having a a principled platform posture and position that is inherently
I often tell people that I go to a church that is not trying to be welcoming. We're trying to grow in Christ likeness. And as a byproduct of that, it turns out we're very welcoming. But that distinction to me is important. We're not trying to be run and grab and be happy and hug everybody in the world b on their terms and in the on their standards. No, we do have a principled position. and I think evangelicals evangelicalism's desire to
Do evangelism and to reach out and to see the world means that we get some fuzzy wiggles in that line of how we want to do the standing versus the chasing embrace. And to me, that would be sort of what I would see as the the the sociological and theological vulnerability that we have of st kind of wanting to hold a line on certain things, but leaning so far that we sometimes teeter into the the tacky, ridiculous or cringe.
Cameron (34:51)
Yeah.
Nathan (34:51)
you you gotta love the heart.
in the in the in the desire to go.
Cameron (34:55)
Yes.
Nathan (34:56)
but if that desire to lean transcends the the theological stability that balances that desire out, then you're going to end up with
Cameron (35:04)
Mm.
Nathan (35:04)
something that I don't think represents Christ and his church well.
Cameron (35:07)
Well, you set up set us up perfectly for a little closing story. So I'm seventeen years old, and me and my best friend in high school are in a life way bookstore. You mentioned the heart behind something. And this is a story about how the Lord can work through any limitations. And my friend points to this he takes me to this painting and says, This is this is so moving to me. I love this.
And in the painting, it's a man, and perhaps you've seen this, it's a man who is in a very formal looking office, but you know, he he might be an attorney or something like that, but he's weeping, obviously very stressed out, something has happened. And invisible to him is Jesus washing his washing his feet as he's weeping in his office chair. Now, I can point out all of the flaws of the painting. It's it it is
Deeply sentimental. This is definitely white, Aryan, handsome, you know, kind of Charlton Heston looking Jesus washing the man's feet. But 17-year-old Cameron recognized that the heart behind this painting, something in it was really, was really lovely. Not the the execution was pretty clumsy. And even then, even then, even at 17, I was a snob. There's no hope for me. But
What I saw there was there was something that was really moving about it because it was what it was gesturing at, however clumsily, was a deep sense of compassion and love. And that's shown through the the limitations of that painting in that Lifeway bookstore. And I rem remember it all these years later. So as we talk about this, Nathan's so right to bring in the question of the heart and the intentionality. We need a we want to strike a balance there. I mean, that's true of all of us.
in human life in general, but we want to strike a balance here as well. And I don't know if if if if the discussions that have happened already surrounding this issue are any indication, this might generate some serious conversation among you and
we'll see.
Nathan (37:16)
Well, and yeah,
and and I think for those of you who are in church leadership or, you know, having conversations with your church, the the real question might be, is this action, is this practice, is this icon, is this decoration, is this decor, whatever? Is it communicating what we think it's communicating? That's that's really the question. So is is this, and maybe that's where you want to ask some of the younger people in your church, hey, when you
hear this or see this, we're hoping that this is what's being communicated through it. Do you think that that is what the world sees when they look at XYZ? So I think that's the that would be where I would start that conversation is to say, hmm, I I get what we're trying to communicate here, but maybe we're maybe it's not coming across in in that same way. So be if we're if we're using symbols to speak to a culture that is ever changing.
then the symbols themselves will change. That's the difference between a symbol and a sacrament, by the way, is the sacraments don't change.
Cameron (38:21)
Mm, mm-hmm.
Nathan (38:23)
Symbols do. And so don't change your sacraments, but do think about the way in which you're symbolically representing the intentionality of your worship together as a congregation. And you can think about that everything from the sign to the building structure, to the music to the interior decor.
And ask the question, is this communicating what we want to? And I think that's a a healthy thing to do periodically.
Cameron (38:49)
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