Why the Epstein Scandal Doesn’t Shock Us Anymore
Nathan (00:01)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co-host Nathan Rittenhouse.
Cameron (00:04)
and I'm your co-host, Cameron McAllister. In this episode, we talk about the Epstein files and how as hideous as so much of this is, none of us are shocked. What's going on? Are we just cynical and jaded? Well, maybe a little bit, but we suggest in this episode that part of a bigger story is that we're beginning to see through what our culture is telling us we should want. Fame, power, money, and fortune. We're seeing the selfishness of all of those pursuits writ large.
problem is we have a hard time finding an alternative and this is where the church comes in. This will be helpful to you as you think practically about how we live a good life in a culture that is degraded and deeply confused. As always, like, share, and subscribe. And if you want to support the work that we're doing financially, you can do that by going to www.toltogether.com.
Nathan (00:07)
Let's talk about the Epstein files, Cameron. You know, this thing's been kicking around for a long time and I want to convey a sense. ⁓ I think you've used the word of mood just so we don't have to use the word vibe about all of this. ⁓ and, this is, this is the challenge of it. So I know it's ripping through the headlines and who's being tagged and you know, here's the thing. When Harvey Weinstein, do remember the Harvey Weinstein scandals came out about that? Who was surprised?
Cameron (00:20)
I was gonna say, yeah, the vibe, yeah.
yeah.
Nathan (00:36)
It was an open joke in Hollywood. Comedians made jokes about it at the the award ceremonies. Everybody knew. ⁓ Did he? Trial. That there were crazy. Parties who was surprised. Everybody so so by the way you get to Epstein files. ⁓ Do you did it shock you that there is a global network of?
Cameron (00:53)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (01:05)
elite billionaires who use their power connections, wealth and prestige to take advantage of people and run shady back door deals that had massive influences on the rest of humanity. Not to mention the, you know, obviously the emotional lives of a lot of young women who were physically pulled into things that they wouldn't have wanted to be. ⁓ I guess I'm kind of getting it. It's weird to me. It's just,
Is desensitized the right word here where it is not that I don't care. It's that I'm not at all surprised because it lives up to the expectations of way in which we all kind of thought things went. And maybe there's a little shock and surprise that, you know, an individual or two is associated here, but by and large, we're like, yeah, we know it's like, if, know, if, we ran headline news coverage, ⁓ that yeah, grass is green.
Cameron (01:41)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nathan (02:05)
You know a couple weeks. Guess that's an important thing to report on how chlorophyll works and the details of it would largely be like yeah, we know It's okay. Maybe I'm overdoing it a little bit there, but what is what is this sense of? with the whole thing
Cameron (02:14)
Mm-hmm.
There's some,
well, what's amazing is there's something, these are truly heinous things that are coming to light and the total lack of surprise is a sign, is a very interesting sign that something's profoundly wrong at in, our, in our culture. You know, I think of a recent experience of mine, Nathan was, I was just trying to, you know, was watching him. There was a new show that was recommended. So I, I'm not going to name it, just turned it on and turns out that the wealthy person.
for whom this man works is actually this incredibly debauched and vile human being, both he and his wife. And they lead this sort of deeply perverse life behind the scenes, even though, you know, on paper in front of everybody else, they're staples of the community. And so I didn't make it past the first episode, not because I was offended, not because I was shocked. No, Nathan, I was.
Bored. I was bored by this. Nothing, no, nothing even remotely interesting about it was so on the nose. Well, and even with, with regard to the Epstein files, I mean, I want to, I'm treading carefully here. Cause on the one hand we're yeah, we're there's stuff here that is horrendous in nature. But on the other hand, yeah, you have this, this kind of very jaded response in a lot of us. I put me in mind watching like Bill Gates, for instance, squirm in his seat right now when he's being interviewed or others.
Nathan (03:22)
There you go. So that's what I was going say. There's no way that that's an interesting storyline anymore.
Cameron (03:51)
It reminds me, it's parallels that the Diddy trial, doesn't it? Where everybody, you know, was taking down their ex accounts and whatever. I wasn't, you know, I was only there because, you know, I was delivering a pizza. You know, I wasn't actually part of the party. I wasn't, you know, I was just pure, was purely recreational. I had nothing to do with the baby oil, but it just, got to a point where it's almost, it's almost farcical. But I think Nathan here, let me, maybe I can lead us in a constructive direction here.
And you could tell me if you think there's something here. Okay. It used to be the case that people would point to certain institutions and say, well, this is a very evil thing. So Hollywood, Hollywood's really evil. So here's Harvey Weinstein and he represents this incredibly decadent Hollywood world. But now what seems to be the case is if somebody achieves a certain level of
massive notoriety and power and fame. In other words, all the things that we're told we should desire and want, no matter what, where they find themselves, whether it's Hollywood or a mega church or the political world, wherever it is, you see this kind of unsurprising, hideous corruption and debauchery. that points to, so there for me, right there, Nathan, is a
massive warning sign about the supposed good life that's been kind of advertised in the United States for a long time, is, know, fame, fortune, power, and wealth. Who doesn't want these things? I'm coming to the thought, Nathan, that maybe more and more people, especially younger people, are thinking, I don't know that I want that because I'm looking... Yeah, so let's... Yeah, I'll pause there. Yeah.
Nathan (05:26)
Mm-hmm.
Okay, but this is important. No, and
I think you're right on the nose here and this does describe the mood, but the mood is despair because if I'm not to pursue those things, what's the alternative vision?
Cameron (06:00)
Yeah, there's a vacuum there, isn't there? Yeah.
Nathan (06:00)
And this is why I
think actually that Super Bowl commercial, I didn't watch the Super Bowl, but I watched some of the commercials before. The He Gets Us one this year was actually really good. Where he was just hammering through the wealth, the fame, the glamour, the bodybuilding, the whole, and then what's the walk away line? What if there's more to life than more?
Cameron (06:06)
He gets us, yeah.
Yeah, that is profound.
Nathan (06:23)
Jesus
shows us another way. was like, I like that one. that, because I think that is the question of our time of if it isn't the private jets and the handbags and the political power and the, can do what I want. you know, I have enough money to get around the legal system. What am I really after here in life? And it, it kind of came home. Literally it came home to me the other morning. ⁓ my youngest six years old was laying on the couch at a fire going, was still dark outside. was just.
coming out to warm up and wake up a little bit and when I was sitting there I was reading. And then first words out of his mouth in the dark was, dad, how much money do you need to be rich?
And ⁓ I looked over and I said, Hey, I said, ⁓ do you have everything you need in life? Do you have, are you surrounded by people who love you and you love in return? Do you have everything that you need to do what you think God wants you to be doing? And are you content? And he said, yeah. And I said, you're rich.
But for some people, takes a lot more money than what you have in order for them to find these things. And so if we can think of wealth, not as a dollar amount, because I think that everybody knows pursuing these things for the sake of themselves obviously doesn't lead to any, it's like, what are these things going to purchase for me? And most of the things that we desire to purchase with extreme fame wealth, they aren't economic categories.
And so it's this veneer that we know doesn't work, but we have a shortage of the alternative that says there's another way to satisfaction, contentment, fulfillment, fullness of life, abundant life that doesn't have seven zeros behind it. so there's a...
An opportunity here, think, in the despair of us looking at some of these things running to their natural conclusions, blowing up in heinous ways, and people being like, well, I don't want that, but kind of that's the trajectory that I've been on. What's the more to life than more?
Cameron (08:39)
Yeah. And we have, I mean, there's always been a list of people who have reached the summit and have come down and said, this isn't it. You know, there, there are several people in recent years, you know, Brad Pitt, think Tom Brady, it would be really fascinating to hear, you know, Kanye West recently, I haven't read the statement yet, but he, issued, put out, took out an ad in the wall street journal, apologizing for a lot of his erratic behavior in recent years.
I mean, talk about a man who has reached the summit of earthly success and then just really plummeted. If he comes to sort of a more coherent place, be really valuable to hear whatever insights he has to offer there. yeah, I mean, then what? What if there's more to life than always more or what? How was it phrased, Nathan?
Nathan (09:36)
Yeah, I think
what if there's more to life than more?
Cameron (09:38)
So here's where you see a number of different interesting responses from some people, some of them in religious directions, but some of them in more stoical directions, right? But you do, this is, think where that growing region is, where you have certain people who think, all right, what I'm after is meaning and significance rather than prosperity or power.
Cause I've seen, we're seeing the flagrant abuses of that all around. And also we're just, I mean, it's just a ⁓ general rule of thumb is most people don't handle a ton of success all at once very well. Justin Bieber's another one who's, who's been eloquent on that, but well, not eloquent, but he's talked about it. Yeah.
Nathan (10:22)
But, and this isn't new. But
I mean, look at the Roman emperors burning people on light poles and I mean, this is, yeah, this is history. Yeah. Or you, I think you even look at some of the, like the fashion in the last couple of years and then you see these articles, here's who wore what, and you're like, ⁓ the Hunger Games are real. You know, as far as the... ⁓
Cameron (10:30)
Yeah. But that's what this reminds me of. I think I keep saying Caligula or Nero when I look at some of this stuff.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
but as Christians, this is where, yeah, we've got, yeah.
Nathan (10:53)
So, actually, this is where like Paul Kingsnorth
book, yeah, I think that the whole against the machine and the more mentality connected to the machine and what are the alternatives to that and how do we forge another way forward will gain some traction here. still, the tires are spinning a little bit as we're saying, okay, we don't want to invest the energy to pursue what we've been told we should.
Cameron (11:00)
Mm-hmm.
Well, here's where, you know, I keep going back to you know, Emmaus story lately because it's, you you have these two dejected men who are making their way to Emmaus and you know, everything, their whole world is, has been shattered. I mean, all of their, you know, it's not an overstatement to say all their hopes and dreams, they're all, they've all been dashed with the execution of Jesus of Nazareth. And so.
You know, the circumstances of the story are strange, you know, know, Jesus, the risen Christ shows up for whatever reason, they don't recognize him. And he starts to ask him questions. Why are you, you know, why are you so sad? Why are you so downcast? Were you dejected? they're, I mean, where have you been? Are you the only one here who hasn't heard about the sad events that took place the other night, you know, with Jesus of Nazareth? And then, you know, they have those heartbreaking lines. We thought, we thought this was the Messiah. We thought this was the guy who would, you know, restore Israel.
And what he does there is he gives them, he restores their story to them, which is what has to happen for a lot of us right now. So he, and he doesn't give them some new amazing, you know, hidden arcane revelation. Right. They have to remember. So he goes, he works his way through the old Testament and demonstrates that these events had to happen before Jesus, before the Messiah is glorified. And
Nathan (12:32)
And to remember.
Cameron (12:48)
You know, then later they go, they take him in, you know, the famous very moving scene where, you know, they, gives thanks for the meal and he breaks the bread. And then as he's giving him the bread, they recognize him. Suddenly their eyes are opened and then he just vanishes. And then they say, we're not our hearts burning within us as he was opening for us the scriptures. And I think part of what happens when you, find yourself in a place like this, our culture is just.
it feels like we've lost the script. We're in a time where it's just, I think a lot of people use the words like chaos, confusion. We just, we don't know where we are or where we're going. And it's, we're struggling to make sense of it. And so we have somebody like Jordan Peterson writing a book where he's telling us to make our beds and you know, millions of copies are being, being bought because yes, please do tell me how to make my bed and have some order in this, in this world. Well, we need to have a
a story restored to us, but it has to be a shared story. is where Nathan will always say, yeah, but it has to be shared. does. It has to be shared meaning. can't just be, so yeah, you probably should say a few words about the importance of shared meaning here for a second, Nathan, because everybody's, yeah, we want meaning, we want significance. Yes, but you need a particular kind of meaning in order for this to actually work.
Nathan (13:44)
There you go.
Shared meaning.
Well, yeah, the haha, here's here's the haunting one for me Cameron is that it's I think what we're We're collectively recognizing is that geography is more important than we thought and so it's not just I know but it's not just shared meaning of I like something that a bunch of people all over the world like
Cameron (14:21)
Aw shucks. Yeah.
Nathan (14:29)
You can form a group there. if you take King's North, he talks about a past, a place, a people, and a prayer. Meaning really comes from a past. We have a shared history and an understanding of where we've come from. We understand who we're part of, a people, that an individualism does not produce meaning until we can recognize how we fit in to the story of our past with the people around us.
It's almost impossible to have that meaningfully without it being connected to a place. We still have vistages of this in the like, where are you from? Where did you grow up? Where do your parents live? Those are, those are desires for us to be able to say, I can't quite place them in my mind. I can't quite, you're, looking for that kind of, of where are they kind of, and where am I? What's, what's where my roots at. And then the prayer is a
Cameron (15:20)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (15:27)
a vision and an understanding of where we're going and moving forward. so there's a sense there that, mean, again, this is, you Jesus, ⁓ knowing where he was from and where he was going, got up from the table, wrapped a towel around him and Nelton served that there is this, this book ending sense of knowing who you are, where you're from, who you're a part of, where you're going, what the plan and the purpose is, frees you up. doesn't say Jesus knowing where he was from and where he was going, made a ton of money with great investments.
He got it from the table and he knelt down and he served ⁓ So there's a fullness that is available to us in the rootedness that is necessary and is the conditions in which Biblical story 101 is is rooted in physical reality with other people Under the the guys and the plan and the vision and the love of God It's it is they it is the parallel story that transcends
Cameron (15:58)
Yeah.
Nathan (16:25)
the meaninglessness that we see in the world around us, so many people lack the resources to make the shift over into that alternative reality. And I think this generation particularly is in a crunch point of being the ones that have to bear the burden of the redirection. When you go through a turn very fast, so imagine you're driving in your car and you make a turn to the left, what does it feel like? It feels like you're being thrown to the right.
great fun game in the, you know, bus seats in the back seat with your sibling. But, but that's not what's happening. What's happening is the car is turning out from underneath you and the momentum of your body, the inertia, the object of motion tends to stay in motion, right? Is continuing in a straight line while the vehicle is turning to the left, which puts you in conflict with the reverse pressure of the right-hand side of the vehicle or the person beside you. And so it's, it's not that you're changing. It's that the, the, the, the frame of reference is changing.
Cameron (17:08)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (17:22)
and you experience the pressure. So that's the mood that we're living in, is that the frame of reference is shifting and we feel the pressure until things stabilize again. ⁓ And that requires a phenomenal amount of ⁓ grit and community to help us get through that together.
Cameron (17:25)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, you know, another thing that this has put me in mind of, one of the most notorious films ever made, so notorious that its director was murdered upon its release, is Pierre Pasolini's, Salo, which for very obvious reasons, I do not recommend to you. And it is an adaptation of 120 Days in Sodom by the Marquis de Sade, but it's updated for modern day. And see if this sounds familiar.
In this case, it's a group of fascists on a private island torturing people and using them as instruments for their own selfish gratification. And I think in a word, Nathan, part of the derangement that is now on vivid display in so much of this and that is no longer surprising is an extreme form of individualism. Now we've said some good things about individualism before. I there are good aspects to it. So long as it's not dis-
Nathan (18:40)
Individuals
matter.
Cameron (18:42)
They do. long as individualism, as long as it's not disconnected from a shared sense of humanity, it's fine. But when individualism moves in a direction of pure selfishness, what you have when you have people with immense power is that you can have selfishness on steroids, which is what you're seeing here. And you see abject cruelty and viciousness of all kinds.
I think part of what, but you're talking about lacking the resources to see an alternative. And that's the problem is so many of, and we've been talking about this a lot here lately on Thinking Out Loud, but so many of us, because all of the stories, all of the poetics of our culture are so individual centric, it's hard for us to just get into the imaginative space of shared, no, no, a shared story, a shared place, a shared.
prayer, right? Something that gathers us together, a story that unites us. The reason we're often shy of the word story is because it's been used in the selfish sense, too. My story. What about a story that you're grafted into? That's the picture Paul gives to us in Romans, specifically when he's speaking about the Gentiles being grafted into the story that begins with this little nation of Israel.
Nathan (19:58)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (20:09)
You know, that's different. This is a story that transcends us. It's a story that is not necessarily on our own terms, but because of all of those things, it's better because it's real and it's meaningful in a deeper sense because it exceeds your own whims and fantasies. And let's face it, our whims and fantasies are often trivial, but sometimes they're just wicked. And that's all of us. That's not Epstein alone. That's all of us.
We need a grand narrative that gives to us shared meaning, but also that gives to us, I don't want to say goal, I want to say telos, a transcendent telos or purpose. And this is the vision of Christianity and this is what you find in your local congregation. So I do think that, yeah, darkening
the doorstep of a church, if you haven't or haven't in a long time. I think that's step one here. And if you can't, if it's hard for you to imagine the alternative to what our culture says you should want, that is where I think both Nathan and I would say you ought to start. And yeah.
Nathan (21:28)
But this
this isn't theoretical because some of you might be saying is this okay unbeknownst to Cameron and everything Cameron just say I just preached a sermon a few days ago about T. Lo's And and the the thing of it is is this is a this is a We didn't plan it but so Aristotle is one of the first ones to really hammer this out I mean in this idea that there is an inherent ⁓ trajectory and an end goal embedded within
Cameron (21:41)
Yeah. Matchy, matchy. We didn't plan that. Yeah.
Nathan (21:57)
Anything that is good. So he uses an acorn when an acorn reaches its telos its fullness. What is it? It's an oak tree that reproduces and produces more acorns. And so there's an expectation of the thing that this grows into. And he talks a lot about teleology for humanity and the eudaimonia and happiness and fulfillment in that way. What does it mean to be a good human? Interestingly enough, when you get in the New Testament, Matthew 5 48 be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect.
Cameron (22:07)
Yep.
Nathan (22:26)
The word perfect there is telos. Be complete. Be as become like your father. And that's in the context of loving enemies and non retaliation and being faithful with your words and your covenants and you know, so forth. You can work back through the early parts of the sermon on the Mount there and see this idea that there's a teleology baked into humanity that is supposed to reflect and represent God as father, necessarily is just the warm cuddly.
Daddy-daddy-on-the-knee kind of thing. There is an intimacy and I'll be father to it But the bulk of the story of the biblical revelation of us being sons is representatives. We're the children of God. We represent our family You have a last name and a first name so your first name there's a degree of individualism within that a unique characteristics and identity But you also have a last name you are representing a family and you're representing a place and you're representing a church and a country and you are representing a lot
Cameron (22:59)
Sure.
Nathan (23:25)
while expressing uniquely who you are. But you will find more meaning and freedom in having a first name, last name, church, people, country, and a prayer than you will in only having a first name. And so when I'm out just to represent just Nathan, that is the pinnacle of individualism, but it disconnects me from a moral framework and order that has limitations on how I treat other people and think about the rest of the world.
But when I step back into representation of not just myself and my family and my church and my location, tremendous freedom and opportunity opens up within that. the fact, you're listening to this and you have a first and a last name, you're off to a good start on thinking about this. But if you have a first and a last name and are part of a church and are thinking about collectively as a congregation of how do we find the fullness of what it is that Christ intended for us in reflecting our Heavenly Father's will on the planet,
then you're pretty close back to Genesis 1 being made in his image with real roles and responsibilities that play out meaningfully in a physical world. So yeah, again, not theoretical. These things are only metaphorical if the Holy Spirit is metaphorical or if the Bible is metaphorical. And that's why I'm always hammering against the Bible not being metaphorical or symbolically practical because it's intended to have actual physical and spiritual manifestations in our lives in concrete and tangible ways.
Cameron (24:30)
Mm-hmm.
Well, this is been, I'm so glad we've come to this place, Nathan. I mean, we started on a pretty dark note and have come to a place of, think, genuine hope here. But it's a humble hope in many ways because it stands in stark contrast.
to what's on display and what's on offer in our culture. But the good news is, Nathan, and this is one sign of real life in our culture, I think, right now, is that I think there's wider recognition of that, of the hollowness of that, yeah, fame, power, money, fortune, influence.
Nathan (25:38)
It's,
yeah, let me give you a grandpa written house quote that I think ties in here with the conclusion that you're making. He once said to me, it's important for me to spend time in prayer each day because if I don't remember who I am in Christ, I'm a danger to the world.
Cameron (26:02)
I can't improve on that. So we're going to let grandpa written house's words stand here because they're fantastic as always. Thank you for tuning in. You've been listening to thinking out loud, a podcast where we think out loud about current events and Christian hope.