Why the NFL’s Bad Bunny Move Makes Perfect Sense (Even If You Hate It)

Nathan (00:01)

Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co-host, Nathan Rittenhouse.

Cameron (00:04)

I'm your co-host, Cameron McAllister. In this episode, we talk about that bunny, the bad bunny, and what it represents for American culture. But also, we consider the fact that it just makes good mathematical sense to feature bad bunny when, you know, due to the changing demographics in the United States and the hopes of expanding the NFL viewership. This will be helpful to you as you try to put into perspective some of the sea changes in our culture and how we follow them, adjust to them, or perhaps dissent from them. As always, like, share, and subscribe. And if you like the work that we do and want to support us financially, you can do that by going to www.toltogether.com.

Nathan (00:06)

Wanted to do a little reflection on the Super Bowl halftime show. know this is dated, but now that everybody's had a little chance to cool off from this and point something that I think we all know, but just to refresh our memories, so many people are processing this as a, as a moral issue. ⁓ and there are deeply moral elements to it, but let's talk about the math behind some of the things that we see in the world. think math is a moral issue for sure, but there are also times in which people.

Particularly, think we as Christians can get overexcited about something and we just need to back up and say, wait a second, let's look at the numbers here. So let's take, for example, the NFL's decision to have bad bunny. Obviously there's an argument of what it means for American football, for American culture, the English language, what it means to be that. Okay. I hear and understand all that and perfectly valid questions to ask. Then let's look at something like here's some, here's just some interesting numbers.

So Kid Rock, his most popular YouTube video has 600 million views. That's a lot, right? mean, 600 million is a lot. Bad Bunny has 19 songs that have over a billion. So we're talking about 600 million versus 19 billion. So those are just some rough numbers. Then we can look at the changing demographics of our country and say that by the year 2060,

If you're looking at who will become new football fans in the next 25 years, 35 years, the percentage of them that will speak Spanish is incredibly high. You look at a national football league that recognizes that the NFL has about 410 million US or American football followers while soccer, the other football has between 3.5 and 5 billion viewers and fans.

And so if you're wanting to increase your market share, so this is, know, when Bad Bunny says something like, God bless the Americas, everybody's like, what is going on here? This is a perfectly logical, strategic choice by the NFL who's trying to massively expand the portion of the pie that they can sell tickets to and merchandise. And so you look, even in the last couple of years, that your average NFL team has gone from, you know, like a $5 billion valuation to a $7 billion valuation.

Cameron (02:09)

and

Nathan (02:29)

How do you grow market share market value you get more fans you get more people? Involved in that and so yeah for those of you who are like bad bunny was a bad choice for the NFL you weren't the intended audience

Cameron (02:42)

Ouch. Yeah.

Nathan (02:43)

I mean so and so

you're like well, I like we're not and so everybody thought like man They really missed the queue here when who your average Buffalo Bills fan is not going to stop watching and rooting for the Bills Because of a halftime show while at the same time if you can get I don't know a hundred million views out of Latin America to be interested in American football That's a total dollar sign win for an organization

⁓ And for any company that has an obligation to its shareholders, we talked about this back when Nike was supporting Black Lives Matter. you remember those days and everybody's like, what are they doing? And you're like, yeah. And you're starting to think like, okay, what demographic buys Nike shoes? Does Nike really have this deep moral obligation about workers' rights? And at the time they were still using what could practically be called slave labor for...

Cameron (03:20)

Colin Kaepernick. Yep.

Ahem.

Yes.

Nathan (03:37)

the manufacturing of their products and then shipping and then selling them under this morally virtuous umbrella of no, it's it's a company who is building their base and Is making strategic calculations now this doesn't always happen this way and this one's for you Budweiser ⁓ What you see what it is you see you see what I did there but the thing of it is but look at the numbers are There are there more young Hispanic men who will potentially start watching the

Cameron (03:55)

Yeah, we were wrong about this, about that one. Yeah.

Nathan (04:07)

⁓ NFL then there are trans people who are going to start drinking Budweiser Yes, yes, they're absolutely are so so again. It's not it's it's a numbers game I know can we still have moral moral responses and things and what does this indicate about the world around us? Yes, but at the end of the day math matters it as one of the fundamental drivers you remember Cameron you were telling us that you had talked to somebody who's in the CIA and he's like people are very easy to understand

Cameron (04:12)

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Nathan (04:36)

They do what they're incentivized to do. And there you have

Cameron (04:42)

That puts it into some stark perspective for sure. You have a numbers game and you have a strategic decision on the part of the NFL.

Nathan (04:50)

Okay, also getting Taylor Swift and with Kelsey and all of that stuff last year. Massive windfall for the NFL. Get it.

Cameron (04:54)

Absolutely. That came to mind immediately for me too. was thinking, yeah,

the way that whole soap opera played out throughout the... But can I... All right, let me chime in a little bit on the moral piece just for a second, Nathan. But because I just want to put this into perspective as well. So people who are bloviating about Bad Bunny's lyrics, most of us, if they look them up and then translate them and then think,

my, well, so my favorite, my favorite NFL halftime show was Prince. And I'm hearing a lot of other people say that it was a pretty magical show. mean, it starts to rain and he's playing purple rain. Come on. I mean, it was just, it was, it was quite dramatic and quite powerful. Guess what? Have you had a gander at Prince's lyrics? So fair warning if you do.

They're pretty racy and some of them are just downright explicit so much so that I can't even mention some of the song titles. So all that to say, I've heard a lot of people who, you know, who think Bad Bunny is a terrible choice, think he's, you know, and talk about how gross the immoral his lyrics are also say, Oh, but that Prince halftime show, that was good. That was American. Well, okay. But if we're to play the moral card here, I mean, most of the performers at the NFL halftime shows are not paragons of virtue, but that also

Nathan (05:47)

Don't. Yeah.

So this

Cameron (06:17)

Yeah.

Nathan (06:18)

is the thing for me. This is just put some little Nathan perspective on here. Those of you who are suddenly outraged by the content of the lyrics at halftime shows for the Super Bowl. My mom beat you there by like 30 years. Easy.

Cameron (06:30)

I don't, we haven't even mentioned the most obvious

dig here, Nathan, which is have a look at Kid Rock's lyrics for heaven's sakes. mean, so you have, but before we get there though, this is a bread and circuses nation. I mean, I have long believed that one of the key architects of American entertainment, and I'm not, this isn't me, it's not original to me in any means, but is PT Barnum. And it's all about sensationalism. It's all about crowd pleasers.

Nathan (06:35)

you

Cameron (07:00)

Even think about sideshow culture. I mean, that's an indelible part of the American industrial entertainment complex. It's been that way for a long time. I understand what you mentioned about Bad Bunny, Americas, it's a big deal. Also, primarily Spanish, that's a big deal. That represents some stark changes to what's going on, demographically, culturally, all of it, absolutely.

Hype and sensationalism and sideshow culture. Now that's been a long, that's a very American institution. Have a look at old, Mark Twain is talking about sideshows. Flannery O'Connor is talking about sideshows in her story, Temple of the Holy Ghost. This is a hallmark of American culture as well. So it's been this way for a while. Nathan and I, know annoy you to no end by saying, hey, this isn't new, it's been this way for a while. We're both.

Nathan (07:55)

you

Cameron (07:57)

Ecclesiastes junkies. It's we are because it's true though. I mean, so this whole hype and sensationalism and yes, shocking elements. Step right up. It's been here for a long time. There's nothing new about that. But yeah, the numbers game makes perfect sense. You have a person who's an absolute superstar right now. Although as a side note, Nathan, isn't it interesting? I consider myself a person who's relatively up to speed. What? Yeah, but when bad

Nathan (08:22)

was gonna say, you know more about music than anyone else I know.

Cameron (08:26)

Bad Bunny came up as the guy. thought, okay, I've heard the name many times. So I looked him up and I thought, wow, this guy has, I he's a huge superstar, billions of listens and all that. And I clicked and I listened. I I've never heard a single one of these songs, which also speaks to the way popular culture is distributed these days. used to be, you know, with radio. So 20 years ago, if I was in high school, I would probably, you know,

in the world in that world would have heard Bad Bunny at some point, you know, from a radio or something like that.

Nathan (08:56)

Mm-hmm. Well, your dad talks

about growing up in Scotland that they all knew the top 20 songs in the US.

Cameron (09:02)

Right. Exactly. You know, I remember listening, tuning into Casey's top 40 when I was in Austria to hear what are they, what are they listening to in America? But now everything is so, is so customized. So, you know, I go into a gym with headphones strapped firmly to my skull. So I don't have to hear any of the music blasting through the gym system. And I don't have to hear anybody else's music. And we all just listen to our own music. And so, yeah.

Nathan (09:25)

But it's like, remember

when we talked about, ⁓ this was years ago, PewDiePie having the most successful YouTube channel?

Cameron (09:33)

Yeah. I remember. Yeah. And I had no idea who he was until yeah, until all of that. Yep. Yep. I remember.

Nathan (09:34)

Who's yeah, neither. So, so,

so, but, here I think is the bigger unsettling element is that these things make a, it's, it's a rapid transition. These are the moments in which we realize we are not the intended audience and we're more out of touch with the broader narrative than we think we are. So again, there are moral elements to this, but.

The deeper sense is that of loss and disenfranchisement and confusion. Not like, it just makes sense to go to some more tickets to a broader portion of the global pie.

Cameron (10:14)

Yeah, think that, I mean, the moral elements, But that feeling of being left behind, I mean, that's real. And the funny thing is it's happening at a much faster pace now. think the rate of cultural acceleration is just dizzying.

Nathan (10:31)

Well, I don't know if you got it right there. So hang on. I think you got half of it. So there is a feeling of being left behind 50 50 50. ⁓ There. So for some people, it is a feeling of being left behind for a another portion. It's a feeling of being overrun.

Cameron (10:37)

50%. All right.

But well, you know, I hear you there, but what I'm saying is for, for many people who haven't even heard of these, these particular performers and it just, they look around and the landscape feels utterly foreign. So, I mean, I think, yeah, I'll concede absolutely being, being overrun stuff is, know, you have, you're trying to raise some, you know, protest or some, you know, feeble kind of protest. Hey, stop this all. But also it's just.

I think it is just, everything's changed and very quickly. mean, the United States does not look anything like it did 50 years ago even. It's, the, the, the whole thing is so dramatically shifted and many people are looking around basically, I think saying, I don't recognize my neighborhood anymore. I don't recognize my country anymore.

Nathan (11:44)

Well,

so, so let's back up to think about also just the shifting of the demographics within the country. I think if you're somebody who on a daily basis walks down the street in New York City, you do think of the U.S. as a totally globalized, multi-ethnic, radically diverse bad bunny as a choice doesn't surprise you one bit. Maybe a little farther outside the Beltway, people are like, whoa, wait a second. This isn't what I thought.

Cameron (12:08)

Yeah, absolutely.

Nathan (12:13)

We were, then you have the kind of the people who are in the suburbs who are very rapidly, I think even, you know, visiting my in-laws every time we're there, there's another house gone and another intersection and another set of stoplights and another grocery store and another. ⁓ and so there's, there are these physical manifestations of a rapid changing structure of community and who we are and what are, ⁓ so yeah, it's, it's a lot, but it's felt differently at different places in the country.

Cameron (12:41)

All right, so let's talk about the turning point, alternative halftime show for a second. So the way that's built is, well, here is a wholesome alternative. So that obviously is self-evidently silly. Yeah, so self-evidently silly, not the case. If you wanted somebody along those lines, why not?

Nathan (12:57)

Yeah, family free, faith freedom.

Cameron (13:07)

I don't know, Carrie Underwood or someone like that. believe Carrie Underwood is a Trump supporter. She's quite a bit more popular. She's got a way cleaner image than, than somebody like Kid Rock. Also, Kid Rock is a kind of a washed up has been in many terms. And when it comes to his, his stardom,

Nathan (13:22)

Okay, we need an

anecdote here Cameron before you continue you've seen kid rock live

Cameron (13:25)

Okay. I hate, I hate this. I've seen Kid Rock

live. Yeah. Goodness me. I never, never thought that that would catapult me into some kind of bizarre sort of cultural relevance. No, high school Cameron was a big Metallica fan. And so there was, there was some of you will remember this. This was called the summer sanitarium tour. was a big, big tour. had Metallica as the

Nathan (13:47)

Nobody knows.

See, this is example. Most people listening to this won't remember this anyway. There you go.

Cameron (13:51)

Yeah, that's true. That's true. See, talk about feeling left behind. Yeah, yeah,

yeah, yeah, there you go. Look, all these gray hairs are... All right. Back in the day, kids, this was a major tour and Metallica were the headliners and high school Cameron listened to almost nothing. I was exclusively a metal listener, okay? But I, really didn't want Kid Rock because Kid Rock was, at the time I was not very open-minded. I thought mixing rap elements and...

rock or metal was completely anathema. Don't worry, I've lightened up since then a little bit, but it was Metallica and it was System of a Down and it was Korn and then was Kid Rock. Kid Rock was the first performer. And I mean, I just have to say the most obnoxious fans in that audience were the Kid Rock fans who were dressing like him with the hat and everything. okay. So yeah, so I saw Kid Rock. That was also, it was interesting because James Hetfield, the lead singer of

and rhythm guitarist for Metallica had injured himself in a wakeboarding accident, because he's a real sporty guy, and he wasn't able to be there that night. And so everybody was really angry and dismayed. Now, you know, has a happy ending. We all got to see Metallica again, you know, and that was awesome. At that time, the band who opened for them was Corrosion of Conformity, way cooler. But anyway, I digress. So Kid Rock fills in for James Hetfield. And I have to say,

I have to give, I gotta give credit where credit is due. One of the most memorable moments of that night was Kid Rock singing Nothing Else Matters. And you know what? He did a good job. And I really, can't stress this enough. I don't like Kid Rock. Don't like his music. He did a good job. All right, there. So there you go.

Nathan (15:33)

There you go. All right. Thanks.

Thanks for, thanks for story time, grandpa. Onward. Onward we go with the main argument here. Cameron has seen Kid Rock sing in Metallica. There's, there's one for the, ⁓ anyway.

Cameron (15:36)

Sure.

Mm-hmm.

Bawadabaw. Yeah. But okay, but this halftime show, okay, so it builds itself, but as the wholesome alternative, it's not. Okay, but what's interesting, but it was, I suppose, successful enough, Nathan, as you mentioned earlier, I believe they're gonna do it again.

Nathan (16:01)

But I think they're trying to do two different things. That's why this isn't an alternative.

Cameron (16:03)

All right, let's hear it. Yeah.

okay.

Nathan (16:07)

So so the first one the other Super Bowl is is for entertainment for a portion of the fan base and it is to expand the fan base and it is Fiscally driven. It just makes good sense a Turning point USA thing it does still have a deeper ⁓ Patriotic so that the flavor is still there of framing as a moral statement which ⁓

Cameron (16:34)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (16:37)

whether or not they help themselves with that, you do kind of have a financial entertainment kind of industry thing versus a moral vision sort of. So, they were only alternatives in that they happened at the same time. But they were trying to do two very different things, in my understanding.

Cameron (16:53)

Yeah, but they were,

I hear you, but they're still trying to, I think they're still billing themselves as, Hey, you don't buy into this particular vision of America. here we have something else for you. And the point I'm trying to drive out here is that this also just feels like more consumerism 101. You don't like this flavor of NFL. So, Hey, we have this and it's customized for you. You want more American flags around you and you want a more patriotic presentation? Well, here we have this now.

I got Kid Rock this last time. I think they're going to do better next time. Just meaning I think they're going to get some, they'll, they will work hard to get somebody with more star power. I think they had less time than they needed here. And I think, I think they kind of, they got what they could get and Kid Rock was, was what they could get. I bet next time they'll be able to get somebody with a little bit more firepower and then it will be more, more of a kind of sort of competition.

Nathan (17:47)

It's a weird

game in that we're using viewership as a moral referendum nationally. So that's what's being set up here as a... Who can boast the most views as...

Cameron (17:52)

Yeah.

Okay.

Wait, time out though. All right. Let's be careful here, Nathan, because you and I, we, very clearly come out in sort of one side of this. Let's play devil's advocate for just for a second as best we can. All right. So let me just, so say, and see if I can do this. This will be harder for me because I am not patriotically wired because I'm a missionary. Okay.

Nathan (18:26)

Okay. Also, neither of us are big football fans, nor do we

live and dwell within the culture that we didn't grow up in households that it's not a big part of our daily conversation and we have no merch and

Cameron (18:30)

Exactly. Right. Exactly.

Yep. there's, so that, with those qualifications in place, yeah, I'm Nathan grew up, know, in Mennonite circles his whole life. mean, this is not a football fan. I I'm a missionary kid. Didn't didn't grow up with American football, grew up with soccer or football as we call it. So with that in place, I think let's say, okay, some for, for certain

people, they look around and they think the country has truly lost its vision of what it means to be an American.

Nathan (19:12)

Well,

so here's a good example though Cameron, when Kid Rock showed up at a Metallica concert, you were like, my goodness, what is this? This is closer to that.

Cameron (19:22)

Yeah.

Right, right, right. So there's a sense in which I think people, they would say, well, I'm open-minded. I love that our country is diverse. And yes, I love that we're a melting pot, but there comes a time where if you're not careful, it becomes diluted and you begin to lose sight of who we were as a nation.

And all of those sort of peculiarities or the distinctives of American culture are now seen as something of an embarrassment, it seems, by most popular culture. it's kind of viewed as, patriotism, for instance, is routinely mocked. And it is true. It's denigrated, it's mocked. And so if you see that and it causes you real pain because you think, I love this country and

Nathan (19:59)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (20:15)

I love that it's a safe haven for people who want to find freedom and the ability to make a life for themselves. That's a beautiful thing. But I also think that if you want to make a life for yourself here, it makes sense that you ought to do it on American terms, on the nation's terms. Because after all, this is America. So then if you're in that mindset and you feel that sense of that real loss and you've grown up knowing when you still, when you were younger or whatever, you still saw.

that kind of, you still lived in that kind of country and now is that slipping away. Then you hear Bad Bunny say, God bless the Americas. It's a slap in the face. So I think, I don't think I've done that great of a job of sort of voicing this counter perspective, but I think it's, it's worth, I'm trying to put into, into good words, I think sympathetically and compassionately.

Why I think some people see this as more than just a halftime show or just a numbers game. Yeah.

Nathan (21:17)

Well, it...

But it's... it... The reason that it is a numbers game and it works is because it is a morally significant signifier of the direction in which things are headed. So, these aren't mutually exclusive categories. I think when you look at the lyrics of a Bad Bunny song and you say, you know what? A billion people like this song. That means something. Like, it is... it is a numbers thing, but it also means like... Wow.

at the same at the same time. So that's a

Cameron (21:51)

What's interesting there, Nathan, and this is just sort of an aside, actually it links back with an earlier episode where we talked about the seductive power of pop music that goes down real smoothly. With Bad Bunny, it's true to an even greater degree because a considerable portion of Bad Bunny's fans don't understand what he's saying. They just love the music. And so again, that's just a...

Nathan (22:01)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (22:16)

That's just an aside about the power of pop music to smuggle in or I mean, this could not even necessarily smuggle in, just to, yeah, there are a lot of elements in it that sometimes, yeah, that can be very powerful and insidious because we, mean, and we just take them in unthinkingly. it's, yeah, just, that's just a kind of an aside there.

Nathan (22:40)

Yeah,

I don't want to undersell the significance of what it is that you're saying there. But here's something maybe to think about. One of the questions that... ⁓ So let's say, imagine your house or the room that you're in. And it probably has a door on it. And ask yourself this question, am I importing or exporting culture from this room or this space?

Am I so so what are the openings ⁓ for most of us are digital it comes through our Wi-Fi signals and our ethernet cables and you know, what else in a way that if you're thinking that I live in a porous vision of reality and the external forces do shape and form the way that I live and act and the people in the in the way that the people around me live and act Then you have a significant problem on your hands here ⁓ on the other hand if you're saying I have a a ⁓

A devotional life and a family and a community and a church in a village that has a way of life together Where we're generating some of these things ourselves and we're no longer dependent on importing Entertainment, we're no longer dependent on importing morality we're never not dependent on importing hope and fear and anxiety and but we're We're building and we're working and we're constructing and we're growing and we do have a vision of what we're doing. So

So for me, I don't need the Turning Point USA halftime show in order to give me a moral vision of where my family should go.

because I feel like I'm like.

Cameron (24:18)

You're bringing up something that's an uncomfortable fact. And that is that many people look to celebrities or entertainment culture for marching orders and just take for granted that we ought to do that. Now they wouldn't put it in those terms, but the way in practice, that seems to be what many people think. Well, you know, these people are, are examples and spokesmen and they, you know, they, they're influencers in the most important and large sense. This isn't just, you know, limited to

Nathan (24:27)

So I think that's what I'm, yeah.

Cameron (24:47)

TikTok, these are real influencers. And so we're gonna follow them, but therefore we need good ones to follow. And yeah, I don't buy into that either, Nathan. I think it's important to sometimes state it in really bold terms. That might sound like a straw man, but actually, again, it's not looking at people's words, it's looking at what they do in practice. And in practice, you're right, we're often searching for that whole Christian or evangelical

pop culture ghetto mindset for a long time that was, it's waned in recent years, but you remember it it reached its zenith in the nineties with, I think one of the key artifacts of that in the music world was DC Talk's Jesus Freak. So I was listening to a comedian recently and this is, okay, he goes, I was once in a Christian rock band and then, you know, some snickers and he goes, well, Christian rock, if you don't know, it's, it's a lot like, you know, regular rock. It's just not as good.

So when we didn't make it, it was especially painful for us. And so I called a band meeting and I said, all right, Malachi, Zechariah, Jeff from homeschool. I think it's time to call it a day. But there's, it's funny because there's a lot of, there's a lot of truth to that because the idea seemed to be, well, popular culture out there is pretty raunchy. So.

What we need are rock bands and rap bands and movies and we just, need to construct a pop culture that's, that, has all of the edge and all of those elements, but that's wholesome. So that we have good examples to follow. You know, I want to, I'm not being very sensitive in the way I say some of this in hindsight's 2020, but you know, there's an element of truth to what I'm saying here about this.

Nathan (26:42)

But

I'm wondering if there's a generational shift here, Cameron, too, because what you're doing in that is you're saying we're not simply rejecting the content, we're rejecting the category. So in the past, Christians have said, well, we'll play in the same category and build an alternative and parallel structure to it. And I think for a lot of young people, like, wait, It's like, Cameron, let's have a discussion about what would be the best caliber rifle to shoot your dog.

Cameron (27:11)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (27:12)

And you'd be like, wait a second, why are we shooting my dog? You know, that's more of where I think we're at. Where he's like, well, here's an alternative way to shoot your dog. You're like, no, wait, hang on. Why are we asking this question in the first place?

Cameron (27:18)

So even

Right. And even back then, Nathan, it was, if you dug into it at all, you would really, you would very quickly realize this is, it's all about marketing. How these, how these artists are marketed. I mean, to give you one specific example, there's a less well-known, but very, very respected kind of metal band from years past is a band called Kings X. They're fantastic. Three piece gospel singer, metal music, amazing harmonies. mean, very unusual. They don't sound like anybody else out there. Well, for, they had some broadly.

spiritual and Christian themes in their lyrics for a time. So guess what? They were sold in Lifeway bookstores and they were marketed as a Christian band. Well, it turns out the lead singer is gay. So then, you know, immediately they're dropped from all those inventories. It becomes this big, huge thing. now, were there moral issues at stake? Yes. But also you're dealing with marketing categories for stuff that's grouped as Christian music. So you're running into this same kind of

tension here.

Nathan (28:24)

But it's

the same one as like, okay, think about if you're a Christian band, what is your slice of the listener population that you have access to compared to being a crossover band into, or even think about Christian ministries that started, or Christian colleges. Why do most denominational colleges, why do you no longer have denominational colleges? Because that denomination doesn't have enough people to run the college, so you have to broaden it out to include everybody else. Why does that?

Cameron (28:50)

Yeah. Yeah.

Nathan (28:52)

Heifer project become Heifer International because you can distribute more goats in Asia if it's not an inherently Christian organization. So it's... I'm coming back around to the numbers do mean something here.

Cameron (29:03)

all right

they mean something. Well, I mean, the numbers, you put it in perspective at the beginning, they make good strategic sense. You want to expand, if you're the NFL and you want to expand your viewership and you have the future in mind and you're looking at demographics and you're looking at people who have the clout and the influence to reach that newer demographic, then you have here a strategic choice and it makes sense. But when you say we're rejecting the categories, I think we need to clarify there.

Once again, this is something we keep coming back to in the last few episodes. If you view the culture and popular culture as just this battleground where you're trying to win in terms of influence, that's where Nathan and I would say that's a futile pursuit.

Nathan (29:58)

But there are other reasons to participate in those things other than the strategy of them. So, you know, some of the Christian music that you would look back on and be like, goodness, that was a little cheesy. It was trying to be something that wasn't. Hey, a lot of people actually enjoyed it and had a good time. And it was stuff that they listened to that they weren't thinking in a broader, I mean, just participate in the. Actually, I think I saw Deetseetalk perform Jesus Freaks. It was a fun time with the youth group, right? I wasn't thinking of anything more in a broader. ⁓

music, you know music industry parallel culture war kind of I just there and had fun with it. So the same thing would be true for a lot of people who engage in a lot of other stuff that they're not saying I'm not by by enjoying listening to whatever country music singer at the turning point USA halftime show. I'm not trying to make a big statement. I'm just enjoying something else in the middle of a football game where the kicker scored more points than the other team.

Cameron (30:31)

Well, and there's a

Okay. Yeah. ⁓

No, this isn't the full place for this. This is its own episode, but there is a different conversation about artists in various categories who happen to be Christian. And when they make, the quality of their work transcends those marketing categories. think about Flannery O'Connor. These days think about Marilyn Robinson or think about a filmmaker like Terrence Malick. These are all deeply Christian.

people who give us very deeply Christian movies, you know.

Nathan (31:25)

See,

okay, but I want to agree with you, but what they're doing there is actually creative work. It's not marching to the beat of a secular sidekick.

Cameron (31:31)

Right. No, not at all.

No, I've named, I've named people who are, who would qualify as genuine artists. So they're not cater catering to popular taste. They're not, they, mean, they're, they're, they're concerned with the integrity of their work. mean, Terrence Malick, you know, hidden life, tree of life, badlands at no point in this man's very, very strange and rich career. you ever accuse him of trying to please audiences?

Same thing with the take no prisoners approach of Flannery O'Connor. I'm just saying, so there is room for us to realize our gifting if we're called into a life of some sort of creative making, but it doesn't mean that we necessarily have to, we don't have to play that. None of those people played the game, so to speak. They weren't trying to, Flannery O'Connor wasn't out there saying, well,

Eudora Welty, she's a great Southern novelist, but she's not a Christian. So I need to write short stories that are the Christian alternative to Eudora Welty's work. No, she was to the best of her abilities and she had some amazing abilities, being obedient to Christ and following his command to realize her gifts and talents.

I think that's the call to all of us. So if you find yourself in creative space of some kind, then yeah, you don't want to be limited by the narrow categories of some sort of culture war. Again, that can be a whole nother episode, but I just hope it's clear. What I'm trying to say is I'm not opposed to good influence. That's a great thing, but I don't think you have to warp and mangle yourself in order to meet people where they're at.

Nathan (33:19)

Yeah.

There's also a, just a, the ephemeral nature of a lot of this. And maybe I showed, I shared previously, we were driving down the road and my six year old said, so, so what was COVID?

You know, and it is hilarious listening to like a nine and 11 year old explain COVID to a six year old, but he was already outside of his living memory. And I thought, wow, that so what are the chances in 10 years, any Christian is going to be talking about bad bunny or 10 months? I don't know what the, so there's that, but then also the people who have really like you think of your William Carries.

Cameron (33:59)

Helpful, helpful perspective. Yep.

Nathan (34:07)

Or some of the mission movements and stuff. These are not people who are trying to set up an alternative structure to anything. They were trying to be obedient to what God was calling them to do. And if they went and died, great. And if they didn't, great. And if it turned into something else, great. And they just kind of prayed big and went for it, but they weren't really, there wasn't an alternative. so I think, and I've repeatedly said this a lot in the last two years, that one of the greatest hallmarks

Cameron (34:08)

Yeah.

Nathan (34:36)

of the work of the Holy Spirit would be creativity going forward. Which is to say, how do we genuinely think about putting ourselves before God in such a way of saying, not my will or anybody else's will, but yours be done, and then grow into it? Because I think that's the only place where we can really flourish in ⁓ dynamically new, creative, ⁓ truly visionary, truly artistic, truly community-forming and building.

forms of engagement in the world. so, this is not to say we can't enjoy some of the Christian alternatives to some of the things that we see, but let's, let's long for more. think, ⁓ not, not more of the same or more of the, ⁓ it's kind of like the store brand, here's here Cheerios and then here are tasty owes. Like I don't want Christian to be the tasty owes version of Cheerios. Is that what we're saying here?

of like, let's do something different, but let's not try to be a cheap copy of ⁓ something. And let's not do stuff just out of a form of protest either, but because we really actually have a different vision and goal. And I recognize that there will be people who look at the Super Bowl halftime ⁓ situation in those terms and find value and meaning in it. And I also recognize that probably for a younger listener crowd, there might be some fresh air to say actually false dilemmas are real.

⁓ Neither is sometimes a fair choice. But then not to just sit there apathetically, but to say if not this then what? And see what the Lord does with it.

Cameron (36:16)

Well said. You've been listening to Thinking Out Loud, a podcast where we think out loud about current events and Christian hope.