Nathan (00:00)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co host Nathan Rittenhouse.
Cameron (00:03)
And I'm your co host, Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:06)
Cameron, I'm working on several sermons and talks and things over the next several weeks, and some of them have some overlapping themes to them. but I need a little help to I think if we verbally process this, this will be helpful for people listening in to stir some thinking and and help me out a little bit too. one of those is is that Jesus.
I there's there's a tension in my mind between the degree to which in the Bible words are really powerful and into and juxtaposed with the places in which the words are fairly meaningless. and so you have the spoken word, God speaks creation. We refer to Jesus as the logos in the beginning was the word. we'll have to give an account for every word that we speak. So there's that element of the intensity
Cameron (00:57)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (00:57)
of the seriousness of the word, and then there is the Jesus.
Hey, here's how you know a false prophet by their fruit, not by their words.
Cameron (01:05)
Mm. Mm.
Nathan (01:07)
and many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, didn't we XYZ fill in the blank? And he'll say, Depart from me, I never knew you. And so there's a a sense in which words are really important. And since they are so important, then things that are merely based in words are critiqued heavily in the New Testament. And so if we play with that idea of what are we looking for when we think about actual fruit.
what is the will of the father, what is the work of the Holy Spirit, and we start thinking about our spiritual growth and development. I think, by and large, for many of us, our default position is to think of that in individualistic terms. So we're we think, you know, I was thinking even like the fruit of the spirit, we think about love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, those, that whole basket of attributes as if they apply to individuals, and they do.
Except they are highly communal postures that are vir like virtues that almost like one of my brothers one time said, it's it's very hard to one another yourself. you know, like they're they're they're they're intended to be in the they're manifest in the application of something, not just in the holding of a state of being. And so I want us to discuss a little bit the concept of spiritual formation as a community, not just as individuals.
And so play with this idea with me if if thinking collectively about our, we, the the plural our spiritual formation, not as something I just go to church and that forms me spiritually, but that we congregationally with whoever you're meeting to worship with are also being called to be formed in a certain way. I think this might lead to some interesting conversation about what we think about what's happening at church.
Cameron (02:58)
Yeah, you're naming a powerful default setting because I think if you s if you gathered a group of people and you put to them the question
How do I how do you know, how do how does how does one improve oneself? How do you improve yourself? How do you, you know, set some goal? I think most of them would would just say, well, I need to work on myself in this way and this way and this way. I don't think you would typically get an answer that would say, I need I need to get together with a group of other like minded people and we can pursue this goal together.
Nathan (03:30)
Do yeah, do you see a lot of so you see the self help books in the bookstore? Do you see the group help books in the bookstore?
Cameron (03:36)
Right.
And it and it's interesting because not not too long ago, I mean, just you don't know, three hundred years ago or you know, in historical terms, it's not that long ago. If that question arose, people would, I think, give more of a communal answer. They would say, Yes, we need to pursue a common goal together. I mean, doesn't I mean this is a biblical theme. This is also this is deeply Aristotelian if you think about Nicomachean ethics. A significant part of that book involves
friendship as defined by a common telos or goal or something like that. And that's this is part of how Aristotle sees the cultivation of virtue taking place. But we don't do that. No. We and I don't think we would disavow it necessarily. If you put it in these terms, people
Nathan (04:20)
No, yeah. I'm yeah.
Cameron (04:21)
say, yes, well of course we need others. But what I'm saying is we default to it. That's what you're dealing with when you're looking at this theme, Nathan, that you with people who their automatic mental exercises
Yes, I've got to work on myself. I've got to cultivate the fruits of the spirit in my life. So here are some practices that I need to probably begin implementing. I need to read my Bible more. I need to pray more. I perhaps need to practice the spiritual disciplines. All of that's fine, by the way. Those are good pursuits,
Nathan (04:51)
yeah, you need to.
Cameron (04:52)
but probably nothing is really very or very little is is is thought in terms of, hey, what if I'm pursuing this goal with other people?
And how might we work together? Yeah.
Nathan (05:04)
Okay,
so let me let me go to the text here a second. So looking in Galatians five, so but the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. Ta-da. that's not the end of the pericope there. There's more to be said. But if you so we think, okay, how do I work on gentleness? How do I become a more gentle person? Well, actually, if you just skip down to the beginning of chapter six, it says, Brothers and sisters, if a person is discovered in some sin, you who are spiritual
Restore such a person in a spirit of gentleness. Pay close attention to yourselves that you are not tempted to. And so the application of gentleness is in the restoration of the person who has sinned in back into fellowship with the community and in proper posture toward God. So there there's almost a sense in which you can't practice gentleness by yourself. All all of these are intended to be.
I the the fruit is never for the individual. The fruit is a gift that enables the service. So
Cameron (06:04)
To
what degree, Nathan, though, would you say that some of this, there's a sense in which you've pointed this odd predicament that we that we have as late moderns. You've pointed this odd predicament out before. And that is we think we have to reinvent the wheel on everything. So in this case, the temptation might be to, okay, gosh, yeah, we have a real problem with with working together with others. We default to being fiercely individualistic. My goodness.
How could what are some strategies strategies and tips to overcoming this? But isn't there a sense in which, Nathan, this is baked into the whole social experiment that is the church? So if you, in other words, if you are actually, I just want to say the bare the something that verges on being a truism and have you amplify this a bit. But in a sense, if you're going to church in the way that you're supposed to be, not, you know, online services only and keeping it at arm's length, but you're actually going and
You're going not just to worship, but you're going to give and to serve to a significant degree. Won't a lot of this already be I mean, you'll it'll be a necessity. You'll have you have to work with others and you have to, you know, navigate nurseries and greet greeting and elder meetings and
Nathan (07:15)
Hehehehe
Cameron (07:17)
and y you know, cook meals. I mean, all that and you have to do that with the the annoying people in your church. Isn't it kind of baked in a little bit?
Nathan (07:23)
Yeah, well, so but but that's why messy church shouldn't surprise us is because that's a feature, not a bug. So so we we've almost come full circle back around to the point that the things that annoy to believe that the things that annoy us aren't good for us. When in the like right here, chapter six, hey, if someone's discovered in a sin, I can't believe the people at that church would be involved. No, it's it's it's not saying nobody in your church will ever sin. It's saying
That when somebody among you is discovered into sin, you who are spiritual
Cameron (07:55)
When yeah.
Nathan (07:56)
should restore yeah, it's when you should restore them gently. so yeah, it's it's you've talked a lot about this, Cameron. It's like always our desire for the for the new the new fix, the the next best thing, the new idea, the new policy, the new procedure. When and and yeah, and and I'm all I'm all for in of innovation, but I
Cameron (08:15)
Let's have a new movement. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Nathan (08:19)
do like the you know, I was listening to the thing by an employer.
And he's like, I have a lot of interns and they have a lot of ideas and that's great. But he said, I want you to be able to do the thing in the way that I have done it, at the speed at which I can do it and the quality first before you innovate. So how about you just do it as well as we've always done it before you start coming up with ideas about how to do this better? And man, I think there's a lot of work there for the not work, just like caution for the church of like,
How about we we how about we grow up to just the basic level of expectation that's here before we before we innovate and move forward?
Cameron (09:05)
Yeah, and I think it's worth I mean noting that the wider culture has such has so many practices that we inadvertently carry over into our our church life, especially in in the in the realm of spirituality. Spirituality is a marketing category in the wider culture in many ways.
Nathan (09:28)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (09:29)
And it's dictated by market.
Demands. So the question is not, is this particular practice true? It's do I like it? Does this help me? Does this give me a sense of inner peace or well-being? And you and so it's not uncommon to see. I know there's a spectrum here, but there are plenty of Christians who take that boutique approach approach and just think, not so much, what is this practice? You know, what is the history of this practice and what is its actual significance? What does it really mean? Yoga.
looking at you. But I mean, there are so many other examples we could give. But the operating question for for many people is just, no, I mean, that will this help me stretch? Does this, you know, does this in some way, you know, help my lifestyle or anything like that? So that's not a neutral practice and it's so common. It is inevitable that we that we bring that same mind mindset into our churches. Yeah.
Nathan (10:28)
Yep. Well,
and and it's sneakier than that because you and I both know very wise people who have spent a lot of time thinking about spiritual disciplines, who will be the first to point out to you that spiritual disciplines in and of themselves can become just another way of self focus. So that's a summary of what you've been saying there is is this too can be weaponized. But I I think let's let's push this out a little bit further into some some application questions just to think about the congregations that you guys represent.
One of those is is I started asking myself, who are the leaders, who are the people that I respect? So we talk about a crisis of leadership, the collapse of institutions, who's worth listening to. And I started trying to come up with a little metric of like, who are the people that I I legitimately care what they think, or that I'm impressed by their leadership. And I recognized that actually, and I I wonder if this is true for you guys, that you are probably most impressed.
or feel the safest around leaders who cultivate communities that are growing in the fruit of the spirit. So I'm not looking for just an individual who is good at love and joy and peace and patience, but somebody who who works within a group so that the dynamic dynamics of that group are trending toward love and joy and peace and patience and kindness and goodness and faithfulness and gentleness and self control. That is a that's a unicorn. I mean that's a not
It's it's a real thing, so it's not a unicorn, but it's it's a rare
Cameron (11:57)
Mm-hmm. Sure.
Nathan (11:59)
thing to say, here's a group of people that are known for this yeah, this this way of being. And and I think there are shortcuts to that. So, like, okay, everybody in our church can wear the same t shirt. you can go Amish, everybody wears the straw same straw hat, and you say, those people.
Cameron (12:18)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (12:20)
but really we should have a collective identity in our congregation, and you don't
have to all wear the same hat for it. But wouldn't it be something? And don't you think it's the heart of what Christ desires for his church to say, here are a group of people who in their interactions with each other and with the world model love and joy and peace and patience. And that that's what we are known for. And then we're using the we, our, us language that really does give us a sense of identity that transcends ourselves.
And gives us a plausibility structure for the reality of it, but then also the framework to be stretched and to grow in. So I think whether or not it's the viability or the plausibility of of your church being a place that people would say, if I were to become like them, I would become like Christ because they're growing in this way. And then also the leadership thing of like who are the people who are really cultivating this in the world around them.
Cameron (13:16)
I know so I wanna go back to something that you began with, Nathan, and that is the the kind of the distinction between let's just say life giving, very important words, and mere words or hypocritical words, or the the that breakdown there. Now you and I are both I'm gonna class us as broadly Protestant, using the terms a little bit loosely with regard to you. I certainly am so we're we're not Catholic, we're not we're we're not Orthodox.
I would sus I so I think a hallmark of our section of the theological woods is that we place a very high premium on the on preaching, the preached
Nathan (13:57)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Cameron (13:57)
word and hearing. There's if you read some of the early reformers, there's there is almost maybe not even an almost, there's an almost sacramental sense of the power of hearing God's word opened.
for you.
Nathan (14:15)
Yeah.
Cameron (14:16)
Yeah, so let's let's talk a little bit about let's make some perhaps some s some distinctions there because the script scriptures has a lot have a lot to say about the power of words and they have a lot to say about the poverty of words too. And it's
Nathan (14:29)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (14:30)
a troubling distinction, I think. So yeah, yeah.
Nathan (14:33)
So but but theologically do we ever see words devoid of action? And I think
Cameron (14:37)
Course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nathan (14:38)
the well the incarnation would be I mean, so this we have this idea of of a manifest word, and so or or we talk about like the word does not return void or go out the Yeah.
Cameron (14:49)
Are you talking about theologically in terms of God's yeah, God's
words by divine fiat. Yeah, no, yeah, right. Those are there's a unity between word and action there that's seamless. Yeah.
Nathan (14:55)
It's s so s so I I think Yeah, and i and
where I want to go with this that I think is a danger is that we spend so much of our time now hearing words digitally, primarily digitally, that are words that are not associated with direct action in any meaningful way. there we're we're flooded by
Slop is too easy of a term because slop isn't intended to connect to anything. But the the yeah, the relationship between word and deed and and the manifestation of the action that's taken from the knowledge is supposed to be extremely tight. out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks. So that that's the intent. And so when we're surrounded just by hundreds of thousands of words, that half of which
Cameron (15:49)
Yes.
Nathan (15:50)
don't even mean anything. It it it's just an interesting category for us to think about church wise of how do we be a word based people that put it into practice in an age in which most of the words have no practical application.
Cameron (16:02)
Yes. Well, yes, so the the that massive distinction between what I'll just call div we can call it divine speech
Nathan (16:09)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (16:10)
and then human speech, fallen human speech. And then there's there's the there are this there's the speech of God's bel you know, believers, the church, often broken and faltering. I like the picture of Paul's picture of, you know, we have this treasure, the gospel, in jars of clay.
But you're drawing attention also to, yeah, not just s slop, I want to just say noise. Unbelievable screaming
Nathan (16:35)
Yeah, that's a that's a good word. Yeah.
Cameron (16:37)
noise all the time. The book that I think is really relevant here is James, too, because James has man, has some very searing, convicting words about just the anarchy that is loosed by the tongue. And this was before James was writing well before social media.
Nathan (16:54)
Yeah.
Cameron (16:57)
But
We're seeing so what we're seeing isn't anything that's it's not di it's not a difference in kind, but it is a difference in degree right now, because you have speech loosed in a way that it hasn't been, and that began probably in earnest with internet and has only yeah, accelerated. So we l that's also part of our environment. We live in a place when it is e it's it's it's easier for each of us to be completely undisciplined in our speech than ever.
Even if it's not in our day-to-day speech, we if you take to social media, there's a similar phenomenon. It's a little bit like getting into a car and getting behind the wheel and driving into traffic and suddenly a whole new you makes a social appearance. A you that wouldn't that wouldn't show up at a cocktail party or at a dinner party or or at a children's birthday party, but it's a you and it's it's speaking out of the essence of your heart, and it's not always very encouraging. Similar things happen with the online world.
So yeah, there's so part of the there's that noise, but there's also the temptation, Nathan, to add to the noise, to add our noise to that noise, get sucked into it. And then before I mean, most of us are talking way too much, wouldn't you say?
Nathan (18:13)
Yeah, because we don't know what to do with ourselves other than to talk. That's the so so let me say something provocative and let's tease it out. So we're we're we're culturally conditioned to think, I go to church and this is good for me. I do not think or that our default position anymore is I live my life in this way and this is good for my church.
Th there's a little bit of ask not what your country can do for you thing here, what you can do for your country going but I but I do think that is the vision that Paul is inhabiting that is reflective of what Christ intended for his people. and so particularly when you get into a whole broad conversation about what are we talking about when we talk about the kingdom of God, is that I have something that transcends me that my life is supposed to contribute to. This is the you know, the soldier doesn't get involved in civilian affairs, the soldier doesn't get involved in the noise.
has a mission and then is making decisions and living and acting and speaking in light of that predefined mission from the commander. And so to think of developing a church culture where we can think about the ways in which we are spending our time, our attention, our energy and saying this is good for us, or even think of this on a on a family level. you're you as a father, Cameron, are making a lot of decisions that aren't just for you and what's good for you. You
You think we and us when you're spending money, when you're making money, when you're driving I mean, so this is this is not totally foreign to us. I just want us to think more about that in r in application to our participation in church.
Cameron (19:55)
One basic unit of social measurement here is accountability. And especially when it comes to our speech, when we want to establish a title link between our words and our actions, that is something that will be massively benefited by a group of people. So you you need account you need relationships of accountability in your life in very basic terms.
To hold you accountable and make sure that you are actually doing what you say. And this is in many categories, of course. It's not restricted to spiritual pursuits by any means. It
Nathan (20:34)
no, no.
Cameron (20:34)
right. I mean, if you if you start any goal, whether you're you're preparing for a marathon or something like that, you've got certain things you've got to do in order to prepare for that undertaking. This is why I always think it's just so practically helpful that Jesus says, if you're gonna follow me.
you need to count the cost in the same way as you would if you were undertaking some major project, whether it's a yeah, a military campaign
Nathan (21:00)
Start a war building something.
Cameron (21:02)
or yeah, whether so you're you're building something, you need to you need to take make a plan. And so if you are concerned about seeing deeper integrity in your life, meaning more of a a seamless relationship between your words and your deeds,
That's not a lone pursuit. You have to do that with other people. And one of the most basic ways in which other people will help you is they will call you out. They will hold you accountable. And you have to disclose to them what you're doing. And guess what? Buddhist scripture tells us to confess our sins, by the way, to one another.
Nathan (21:38)
Yeah.
Cameron (21:39)
So all of this is there not just to help you, but as Nathan was saying earlier, to to help the body of believers in which the what the specific one.
where you serve and you worship, but also t to help others around you. This isn't just it's not just we've got to get beyond the narrow confines of self improvement. Your self improvement will help other people in your life. Yeah.
Nathan (22:04)
Yeah. Well even in even when you look
at the idea of biblical gifts or spiritual gifts, exactly zero of those are given for the benefit of the person who holds that gift.
Cameron (22:15)
Yeah.
Nathan (22:14)
I mean, they are all gifts
that are given for a and I mean Paul in Ephesians I is is saying, Hey, the role of the church is to equip the saints for ministry. So if you you're flipping that around, it's not the role of the church is to make the people feel good who come there. No, the role of the church is to equip the people who are then being sent in the world to live
Cameron (22:35)
Mm.
Nathan (22:35)
And b and and bear the spirit which glorifies the father.
That there's there's no great marketing campaign here. it's just that's what it says.
Cameron (22:47)
And one of the the outworkings of this though is if you are a person or if you meet people who display the fruits of the spirit, I'm gonna go ahead and say this is one of the most powerful apologetics right now.
Nathan (23:01)
Well, okay, yes. Go here 'cause this is where I this is actually I'm working backwards from that end.
Cameron (23:06)
Yes. So it used I mean, it may have been the case not so long ago that people were after a really impressive presentation and eloquence and rhetorical flourish and all of that. No more. And part of the reason for that no more is that words are cheap for all of the reasons we've just outlined. There's so much noise out there. Also, great communicators are a dime a dozen. I mean, you can you can
Nathan (23:29)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (23:30)
pull them up at any second on on with a just a quick search, and there they are.
Here is a TED talk for you. What is rare, all too rare, is a person who is truly a person of integrity, a whole person, a person where there is that seamless relationship between their speech and their actions. You can't have that usually. That doesn't usually come through on a screen. In fact, I'm gonna say it really doesn't come through on a screen. No.
Nathan (23:56)
Yeah, it doesn't. Yeah.
Cameron (23:58)
What's needed there is a relationship. You have to actually know the person, you have to see them in action, you have to see how they
treat people in a restaurant who are waiting on them, for instance. That's a big one, by the way, Nathan, that a lot of people have have said that they look for in in certain peop people of notoriety. They look at how they treat people in the service industry who are who are waiting on them as a as a key indicator. But the point is you gotta know the person a little bit. When those people are seen, when you know you spot in the wild and they're they're they're actually all around, they're tremendously compelling because they're walking
out of step with a a highly agitated, angry culture. And if they're displaying
Nathan (24:40)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (24:41)
if if if it's clear that they're reading the news, they know what's going on. They know the score, but that they still have this beautiful sense of peace. You even you've some there have been some popular call-outs of it, Nathan. I think of when John Lennox was on the diary of a CEO. That's one very obvious place to point at the end, the host basically said, I have to say, John, as impressive
as you are and your career has been it's really just you. It's you. It's this this piece about you. This there's this just this beautiful piece. And had the same experience when Wes Huff was on the show as well. That's that quality of that's what we're talking about here.
Nathan (25:16)
Yeah, and and and you
can get I think you can get synthetic or there are facades of this. So there are places of joy. Disney World apparently or I I s where or you know a a
Cameron (25:28)
Apparently.
Nathan (25:29)
a spa resort or something might be peaceful. But I think the people who are able to cultivate these things within what we consider to be the normal lived experience, not not the the highly curated manifestation of these attributes.
'Cause 'cause individually and with a great amount of wealth and security, you can you can you can build some, yeah, facades of these. But I think, Cameron, you would agree with me. One of the fun things of our job is getting to travel around and meet a lot of Christian people and it's
Cameron (26:00)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (26:00)
just a blessing to go into somebody's home and take a deep breath and be like, This is a place of peace. Like this is a good spot. I like these people. I can see, you know.
the the way they behave in their kitchen is the same way that they were behaving in traffic on the way home. You know, there there is that reality to this actually does work. Work is a crude word there, but this this really does apply in in the in the
Cameron (26:23)
No, yeah, but it does, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Nathan (26:25)
fullness of the actual lived experience of humans. The people who can who can show that, I think it's I remember as a little kid
my grandpa got a kick out of the fact that the guy who has the world record for the most free throws is a dairy farmer in Wisconsin.
Cameron (26:43)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (26:44)
phenomenal accuracy. I mean, I think like two thousand free throws in a row or something, and then broke his arm and learned how to do it with his left hand. Look it up sometime. It's great. But the point that grandpa would make is he said, Do you know why that guy doesn't play for the NBA? It's because he can only make three f free throws when nobody's guarding him. He can't shoot under pressure.
And it doesn't matter how many free throws you can make in your barn. That's not what earns millions of dollars in professional basketball. It's whether or not you can make that shot when somebody has their hand in your face. And I think the same thing is true when we look at the spiritual disciplines of, yeah, maybe if you're sitting on a mountaintop by yourself, it would be easy to have love toward all of humanity. But it's it's a different thing. Like, can you
Cameron (27:27)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan (27:29)
still make the shot when somebody has their hand in your face? That's the question we're leaning
Cameron (27:31)
Mm-hmm. Well said.
Nathan (27:33)
into here.
Cameron (27:34)
Yeah, that's really well said. And I think in some ways, what's what people really want is to see that it is possible to be that way. You're right. One of the privileges of doing this kind of work is is traveling around. And also, not to mention, many of the people you meet and you're staying in their homes are strangers to you technically. And yet when you share
your devotion to to Jesus, you find that there's this beautiful sense of unity. And I've I've experienced it as I know you have, Nathan, all around the country, but all the all around the world as well, meeting believers in in Asia, in Europe. But for for those on the outside to see, no, it is possible to, yeah, not be on some at risk some retreat center or on some digital fast, but here
in the middle of traffic or at the DMV or at this homeowners association or at this kids
Nathan (28:31)
Yeah.
Cameron (28:34)
little league game where parents are about to get into a fist fight, it's possible to be in all these settings. You're gonna be a person at at rest, not unaware of what's going on, not tuned out or something like that, but just at rest in their soul. That's a that's a vision of hope that so many people desperately need right now.
Nathan (28:57)
So so let's think about this from a church leader or those of you who are very involved in the church is to say one would be, do people want to be like the members of your church? Or or do you want other people to be like the members of your church? Maybe it's the first question. d
Cameron (29:11)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (29:11)
do do people want to be like that? And then if so, do they see the way in which is there is there a clear trajectory there? Of so how how this didn't just randomly happen to this one person.
that you know suddenly they were they were you know full of love and joy and peace and patience and kindness and goodness. what can can we clearly explain what happened to this person to produce this in them and that is available to you as well. Cause you you don't go watch the Olympics and think, hey, I'm going to do that next year.
Cameron (29:46)
Ha ha.
Nathan (29:48)
or you shouldn't. Like that's not that's not how that works. Yeah.
Cameron (29:49)
Yeah, some people do and they're delusional, yeah.
Nathan (29:52)
So but that's if this is the work of the spirit
If this is the fruit of the spirit, it doesn't say this is the fruit of the diligent. It doesn't say this is the fruit of the
Cameron (30:01)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Nathan (30:03)
and and so what I think is a bummer is if we look at the people that we're talking about that manifest this well, if we would associate that to them, and they're just they read all the right books and they did the right conferences and they listened to the right podcast and then they suddenly became full of self control,
Cameron (30:22)
Mm.
Nathan (30:22)
That's that's on a shelf too high for most of us to reach. But if we see this is the work of the spirit, and one of the primary ways in which the spirit is referred to in the New Testament in particular is as a gift, then suddenly we're preaching a message with an expectation and an invitation both baked into it that has some traction for a weary world, I think, but they need to see that it actually does produce fruit that is laudable in order for the journey to even be initiated.
Cameron (30:54)
That is well said. And I think this is gonna be a stretch for some of us. We're not used to thinking in we're we're we're conditioned to think so individualistically and to think about how we pursue a common goal of the cultivation of virtue with other people. That's that's different. So think on these things. Yeah.
Nathan (31:15)
Hey, can I put in a plug?
so Rebecca De Young's book, Glittering Vices. we my home church did that as a as a whole church study a year or two ago. That's a great resource. Divide it up, get like eight different people to read different chapters and present it and discuss through it. You look at the vices and corresponding virtues, and that would be a great starting spot if you wanted to put together a group of people to start thinking about what does it look like for us to cultivate virtue collectively in a way that honors the Lord.
just throw that
Cameron (31:45)
Hmm.
Nathan (31:46)
one out there.
Cameron (31:47)
Tole Leg. Take up and read. Here's something else you should do right now. Like,
Nathan (31:52)
Yeah.
Cameron (31:54)
share, and subscribe. I know you want to. So go ahead and do it. And tell others about this wondrous podcast that is Yes, but that has changed your life in meaningful ways. Alright. This is why he's not This is why he's not.
Nathan (32:04)
Meandering, rambling, pontificating, peripatatic, quasi intellectual, semi distracted, hopefully biblical.
Cameron (32:15)
A marketer, okay. But I will tell you, yeah, that just let let us be the voices in your ears when you're on yeah, when when you're on your commute
Nathan (32:21)
We come in two flavors, bearded and unbearded. I mean, there's something there for everybody.
Cameron (32:25)
and when you're you're you know you're going about your daily pursuits. I know we've said that you know you should minimize noise in your life, and and you should, except for us. Just kidding. So, yes, like, share, and subscribe. And if you'd like to support us financially, you can do that by going to www.toltogether.com.