Ian McGilchrist, Community & the Search for a Good Life
Link to referenced video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raggjja9lMQ
Nathan (00:00)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co host Nathan Rittenhouse.
Cameron (00:03)
And I'm your co host, Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:06)
Cameron, I want to follow up on our last episode that we did on contentment and resentment. I think we were and it's is it's fine, it was good. looking at yeah, First Timothy and thinking about, but I think I think when we're looking at the young adult experience, or not even just the young adult experience, but the experience of being human today, that in that episode we were looking a bit more in the economic and the maybe housing market side of the ways in which people feel dissatisfied.
with life and then finger pointing can come out of that where it's well it's this it's the boomer's fault or who like pick your I'd people say all kinds of stuff of like who do you blame for the condition of the culture that you're in. And but I think we're we were looking at that a bit in the economic category. More recent writers like Paul Kingsworth and Against the Machine and others have have drawn on and I think tapped into a deeper sense of unrest and
whether or not it's resentment we can we can talk about, but the yeah, the discontent feel of our time. And I want to discuss with you clip I shared, maybe we'll put a link to or something, just a three minute little segment from Ian McGilchrist, who actually how would you describe Ian McGilchrist to the uninitiated?
Cameron (01:28)
Yeah, I would say he's he so he is a neuroscientist with a heavy training in the humanities as well. That's not my description. I'm borrowing from Rowan Williams. And I thought that was
Nathan (01:41)
Okay.
Cameron (01:41)
such a such a great way to describe him. So a very well rounded scientist. That's how I describe in
Nathan (01:46)
Yeah. Okay.
Cameron (01:47)
McGo Christ, yeah.
Nathan (01:48)
Yeah, and and so there's this somebody was asking him in an interview about basically satisfaction, or what does it mean to to have a good life. and he starts talking about fulfillment. obviously Jonathan Haidt had written a book on this, the happiness hypothesis. that's well over a decade ago.
Cameron (02:05)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (02:07)
And McGillchrist starts talking about satisfaction, and I think what
Maybe ten years ago, Cameron, we would have looked at it as kind of like, sure. It's kind of this yeah, esoteric vibe. But he is speaking as a neuroscientist of just saying, actually at the end of the day, there is there is a there there on what we can say about some of the things that you need in order to feel stabilized as a human. And he's gonna be big on us recognizing that we are part of environments that we live in. We're we're creatures who are embedded.
or intended to be embedded in in social and physical networks. And there's there's just I I guess maybe the starting point to ask the question to you is why why do you think we have this tendency and we're going to get to his three, here's what
he says, but
Cameron (02:57)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan (02:59)
why do you think we have such a capacity to, let's say, study ecology and then exempt ourselves from it? Or we can spend, I mean, the amount of
the amount of research that is done on what makes a healthy chicken, you know, lay the most eggs. Like we we can look at a at a creature like that and say, here's the environment, here's the context, here's the here's the lighting conditions, the heat, here's the feed, here's what optimizes this creature to fulfill its full potential. And we do that across you know, we complain about elephants that are in enclosures that are too small.
I once remember reading a book about concentrated animal feeding operations while flying over Manhattan. And you're like, there's the disparity here where we're willing to put in the
Cameron (03:48)
Yeah.
Nathan (03:48)
work of understanding what makes h every creature thrive. But then when it comes to humans, we exempt ourselves and sometimes even long for conditions that by any your great grandmother's just basic knowledge.
And our modern scientific understanding, we would say, like, you really shouldn't do this to a human, and yet here we are.
Cameron (04:13)
There is a lot going on there. All I all we can do here is is scratch the surface. But let's start with the fact I think a kind of state of mind that enables this, Nathan, and McGilchrist actually alludes to it. It McGilchrist says he doesn't like the word environment because of all of the depredations that it it represents. But he the word nature, he says nature is also within us. I might go I I suspect he's probably saying the same th we're probably saying the same thing here, but I might
phrase it somewhat differently, I would say we we are included in nature. We are part of nature. And so a lot of our very unhealthy, unharmonious activities when it comes to fellow human beings, you know, as opposed to cows and chickens and elephants,
have to do with the fact that we have we've somehow without realizing it, we don't realize we perform this mental maneuver. I don't know that we even call it a maneuver anymore. It's a default setting. We have already exempted ourselves and we think of ourselves as independent of nature. And that leads to some very irresponsible ways of living. But also, Nathan, the the the sh the the the kind of positive way of spin on that is we can control everything.
That's where the w you know, the word environment comes in. We get we can control our environment.
Nathan (05:38)
Y yeah, so maybe Yeah, so maybe it's a safety a defense mechanism.
Cameron (05:43)
Right. But the negative side of that, Nathan, and you've you're very well reversed in this literature, would say human beings are a virus on the planet.
Nathan (05:52)
Yeah.
Cameron (05:53)
But and and to say, you know, nature is beautiful and harmonious and human beings destroy it. But the unbelievable naivete of that position is we're we are part of nature. So human beings, if you want to have this really impartial view of humanity, you have to count us as one among the many organism I mean, the numerous organisms on the planet. We are one a particular complex animal. All right, obviously that's not our view, Nathan.
But that would be a more consistent way of saying, well, human beings are a virus. It might sound really austere and perhaps even noble and tragic, but in fact, it's just nonsense. If you think that nature is all that there is or something like that, then human beings are absolutely numbered in nature's inventory. Now, as Christians, we would also say that we're we're part of nature. We would have a different way of working out working that out, of course.
But part of what that here, let me just give you one practical takeaway here, Nathan. If if we are part of nature, or if nature is in us, as McGillcrest says, then that means that nature to a significant degree is going to is and will remain for us a mystery. It doesn't mean that we can't gain insight, doesn't mean we can't have best practices, but it means that we can't conquer nature. If we are part of nature, we can't conquer
Nathan (07:18)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (07:18)
nature.
So I think that's the I think that's the the sort of dilemma that your question is is pointing us toward.
Nathan (07:27)
Yeah, and actually technology is one of the ways in which we try to gain a perspective. So think about like seeing drone footage of above your house or seeing yourself from from above. That's that's not a a capability that is naturally within. So the way in which we're s we're we're always looking for a way to see to get to get a new insight onto the way in which we're situated in the habitat in which we are. And technology does give us some fascinating glimpses of that, but there still are boundaries.
To being able to see ourselves other than the way that we physiologically. But all right, we're not we're getting nowhere close to Magul crest here, but we'll we'll get there. that's that's the plan. But let me just also say that it's not just human nature physiologically that that principle applies to. That would also be true spiritually. So you can't really say Christianity, Islam, religion is a virus either, because they are natural.
i if you're just looking at this baseline natural development of the let's say you
Let's say that's true that elephants are afraid of mice. You wouldn't say that's a virus on the planet. That that would just be a a normal part of the development of a natural response of an elephant elephant to mice. So let's say that humans have the desire to worship. If you're going to look at that naturalistically, that would also be an inherent part of the natural development of the species within the ecology. Is that so yeah, anyway, you
get what I'm saying? All right, let's
Cameron (08:58)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nathan (09:01)
we can we can run down those rabbit trails another day.
But here's what Miguel Kress says. so his number one is this surprises nobody, meaningful social community. And so he narrows this down to like the people that you eat your meals with would be one of the that
Cameron (09:18)
You worship with yeah.
Nathan (09:19)
you eat your meals with and that you worship with. And I was remi but we intuitively know that this is true. Don't don't you think?
Cameron (09:27)
Yes.
One hundred percent. Nathan, I think part of what strikes me about this is we have a man here who is astronomically smart telling us things that for most of us and down the ages are so obvious, they would be banal for most people. They would I mean, they would
Nathan (09:49)
Ha ha ha.
Cameron (09:50)
just be total truisms. I mean, and I think for most ordinary people today, if you step outside of people who have
educated them you know, the circles of people who've educated themselves into imbecility, they're all gonna say, Yeah, you need people and place is important and a sense of the sacred. Well no duh. Hello. I mean, I didn't need a guy with five PhDs
Nathan (10:11)
Yeah.
Cameron (10:12)
to tell me that. So yes, I
Nathan (10:14)
Apparently we do.
Cameron (10:15)
I yeah, apparently but we do though. we
Nathan (10:17)
Okay.
Cameron (10:18)
really do.
Nathan (10:18)
Th so so one of the funny anecdote h here, this is and I don't even know if this is true, but like I don't know, maybe five years ago I was giving a talk at the University of Virginia and I had done some looking into the question of which people group is the most socially satisfied. Where's the highest degree of contentment? I think I've talked about this. Do you know where is? Do yeah, it's it's the it's the yeah, it it
Cameron (10:40)
I do. But 'cause you've told me but yeah, I want I want you to yeah.
Nathan (10:43)
yeah, it's the the no nomadic Mongolians.
who who live in these big yurts that, you know, they haul around, but, you know, everybody's in there. Grandpa, grandma, mom, dad, cousin, brother, sister. I mean, like it's so you have like thirty people in a yurt and they pick it up and they move around and now who measures these things and knows whether or not and pfft some
Cameron (11:04)
Sure sure. Yeah.
Nathan (11:05)
some anthropologist, yeah, thumbs up to you. But but I I th so I was I was giving these university students a hard time saying that they were probably less happy relationally
Than your average sheep herder in Mongolia. and it was a little bit of a tongue in cheek, it's just a a fun way to set up the conversation. But I think we know that's true. So there's number one. number two, you already hinted at, which is the the connection and the relationship to nature. And what did Milgirkrest say? You know, even just a couple of generations ago, 99.9% of people would have been more deeply.
aware of the biological changing of the seasons of nature. You know, even go back 150 years and London has way more parks and fields of lilies. And I mean, there was a time where Paris was growing its entire vegetable consumption inside the city limits. So you think
about, yeah.
Cameron (12:05)
That's true. Wow. Yeah.
Nathan (12:07)
I now what made that work is that
Horses were the main source of transportation. So you had all of the fertility was right there in the urban environment. But within the
Cameron (12:16)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (12:17)
boundaries of Paris, so basically everybody was growing vegetables in their front, you know, little plots or whatever. so he's just saying it it it's it's not necessarily correlated to population density. but he the point he's making is that it's it's just new that we
Cameron (12:36)
Well
and that we all just had access to the countryside. We had a access to nature in ways that now you you do, but you have to plan a trip to the Smokies or something. You've got to yes.
Nathan (12:48)
Right. Yeah.
Cameron (12:49)
So I mean, you can do it, but it's not it's not a natural part of of your your scene it's not the scenery of your day for most most people. It is actually for you, Nathan, but for most people it it is not. And that
has a profound effect on the way we think about our place in the world. This is what Ian McGillchrist is saying. And so and he's also saying that part of this is these are some of the effects of the post industrial revolution. It's the world in which we find ourselves that tends to affect it it affects us spiritually, it affects us mentally. We can bring in our old our pal Charles Taylor here and say that what that also means is that everything we look at is circumscribed by human ingenuity and
and human technology. So that tends to breed in us the tacit assumption that we're we're in charge. And that's a that's not a neutral thing either. Yeah. Sure.
Nathan (13:41)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well Well, let's jump ahead because this is a good
good transition point into what how d what is what's the phrase he used, like cosmic significance for the third one? what is that the phrase he uses? It's something else.
Cameron (13:51)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. He used the
word, yeah. I think he I mean he certainly used the word cosmic. I think he he maybe significance. I think he probably said sacred, something like that. Yes. A sense of the
Nathan (14:03)
There you go.
Cameron (14:04)
cosmic well being and the sacred, something that exceeds our own limitations and our own narrow wishes and sensibilities. That this is something
Nathan (14:12)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (14:13)
that we need. Also, this would have been patently obvious to people. I think it's still patently obvious to most most people.
Nathan (14:20)
Yeah.
Cameron (14:20)
But
Nathan (14:21)
And and
Cameron (14:21)
Yeah.
Nathan (14:21)
I I think the l the change I forget, I was talking to somebody about this, maybe I said on the podcast, kind of that C. S. Lewis idea of whether do you have an interesting character that you're trying to adapt a story to, or
Cameron (14:32)
Mm.
Nathan (14:33)
is there a story that the character grows into and participates in? And we very much live and he's like the one the first is bad literature, a bad story, and the second one is is, you know, timeless and good. And we do very much live in this,
order now in which I see myself as a unique character and I'm trying to adapt reality to myself rather than seeing some sort of cosmic unfolding or grand narrative that I'm learning to grow and to live within as the way in which I understand myself. So there you go. That's all you gotta do, Cameron. Sort those three things out and happy you shall be. But
what but
Cameron (15:10)
Sure. Well
let's well w w let me throw a a thought your way, Nathan. And then I've been awfully glib and somewhat dismissive even here. Not of Ian McGilchrist, but I've said that this is these are sort of almost banal platitudes and everybody knows this. And yet here we are. And we struggle mightily with this. And I want to be compassionate here. So why would we? So let's look what what are these three things? You know, people, place
Let's just say worship. Can we just say worship for that third one? Okay. Prayer. Yeah.
Nathan (15:40)
Yep. Prayer if you want to use the P's of Kings North.
Cameron (15:44)
Three P's. Yep. If we're yeah, if we're bar bar
Nathan (15:46)
People place prayer.
Cameron (15:47)
yeah. Yeah, King King's North has them has them very well ranged there. Okay. Let's look at our attitude to all three of those. In the past, not so long ago, as I would say as recently as two hundred years ago, Nathan, and in historic terms, that's that's really recent. All three of those were s were were just known
To be essential. Now, all three of those are seen as fungible. They are seen as they're certainly not seen as essential. If if if somebody asked me who I am as a person, Nathan, I've been talking a lot about this in in my talks lately, so it's fresh on my mind. But if somebody asked me, Cameron or Nathan, who are you? And I gave an answer along the the basically the classical lines, which would have been along the lines of, you know, people, place, prayer.
They would say, come on. No, but who are you really? And the reason we don't like these three, you know, people, place, prayer, is because we don't have much of a choice in all three initially. And we tend to prioritize choice.
Nathan (16:52)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (16:53)
You go back to what you said earlier with with regard to C.S. Lewis. You know, a lot of our modern heroes now, it's not that they're trying to conform the soul to reality. They're trying to conform reality to their soul, right? They want the world to conform to their own inward.
Sense of reality, and that's that's our hero today, right? Well, you can just play that out and see that that's not going to lead to a healthy sense of community, obviously. That's gonna probably lead to loneliness and isolation. But also, all three of those, we okay, our people. I always turn to Thanksgiving episodes of sitcoms for to illustrate this one, Nathan,
Nathan (17:25)
Yeah.
Cameron (17:26)
because Thanksgiving episodes of sitcoms are insufferable in their moral message because it's always it's
Always the same thing, whether we're talking about friends or new girl or one of the or some other sitcom, it's always, well, your biological family let you down, and you know, you have all sorts of trouble with them. But you know what? Your real family, they're your friends. And why are they your real family? Well, because unlike your biological family, you chose them. And so these are your real people. So choice, any faith.
Nathan (17:59)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (18:00)
It's not going to be well received. If you say, Well, I was born into Christianity and by God's grace, it's just been a tremendous blessing. To a certain extent, Nathan, that's you and me. We both say that.
Nathan (18:11)
yeah.
Cameron (18:11)
Do people receive that well generally? Well, no. You need to Christianity can't be your own unless you've chosen it. And so that way, you know, if you're, you know, like somebody else who who who prefers Wicca or may maybe Buddhism, but you have to choose it. That's what's so important.
Nathan (18:29)
Well, and and the funny manifestation of this is I remember thinking about this in college of people saying, okay, so you were born into a Christian household, therefore Christianity can't be true. You just believe it because you were born into it. And and so like let's let's say there are five religions and one of them is true, then somebody is going to be born into the true religion. Like just because you're just because you're born into it, I
Cameron (18:50)
Right. Mm-hmm.
Nathan (18:52)
I'm setting up this hypothetical to to say, yeah, but it is possible to be
born into a culture that has over, you know, a couple thousand years ironed out some pretty healthy ways to live.
Cameron (19:04)
you
you can be born into a way of life and a tradition and a faith. That's also true. You can also be born into you can be born into an atheistic household and hold on to those ath atheistic convictions. I mean Yeah.
Nathan (19:15)
Well so so so but that but the the
the c the the the heart of the argument here is that the assumption in that is that you can only believe something if you chose it. You like or or the or or the belief is only warranted if you rejected something in order to choose it. It's only authentic, yes. So
Cameron (19:29)
It's it's only authentic if you chose it. You took ownership
of it personally and and by the way, of course, being born into something and then holding on to that and continuing to walk in that p path doesn't preclude a level of choice, by the way. We could that's a perhaps a conversation for another mat for another time, but
Nathan (19:45)
Yeah. Well, but you do but you
but you do see some long t you do see some interesting. I mean, this is why people I think are fascinated with the concept of Rumspringer within the Amish, where they recognize this as a as a pitfall of you're born into a total way of life and seeing the world, but you're only going to be able to live here with some degree of coherence and satisfaction if you do something else and then choose to come back into it. And so Cameron and I would be very much on board with that.
Don't send your candle rumspringer necessarily. But but to be questioning, to be asking, to be challenging, to be pushing back, to think to own it is is different than being born outside it and choosing it. So anyway, that's we should work through that another time. but where I want us to go here in the last 10 minutes, if we can, is that it seems like to me, let's go back and and think about 14-year-old Nathan and Cameron and the world that we inhabited, that there were
Institutions that were developed around the concept of a good life of human flourishing, which were basically g you know, finish high school, go to college, get a degree,
maybe
Cameron (20:56)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (20:57)
you'll get married, get a good job, the end. you know, r retire and enjoy your cottage or your beach house. Like I I and I mean I'm I'm painting with a very broad brush to use Cameron's phrase here.
of that sort of was the narrative of the ideal. And then we built institutions that would facilitate that. So the educational systems were put in place, the internships were put in place, the the economic counseling and and vision was as apparatus alongside that to help you get set up for that trajectory. Then twenty let's look at twenty-seven to thirty-year-old Nathan running around in Boston.
With a lot of very intelligent college kids who couldn't articulate it, but were definitely in hindsight going through a warped sense of like, wait a second, my parents did all of these things just right and are miserable. Do I really want to go down this same set of train tracks and have a second beach house in a yacht and hate my spouse and work eighty hours a week at the law firm? Like you started to see, I think, a cultural
like the flywheel is coming apart to some degree. Then I would say, let's jump to this present section here where the institutions have, even that we're promising those things, have collapsed. And we're in and so that's why I think a a Paul Kings North or a Mil Gripcrest, that's why we're having this conversation, is because there is a renewed sense of like, wait a second, the old the old promised model of idealism to some degree has disintegrated.
And even if it was good, there are no longer the institutions there that will accomplish that for you. And that's all on top of a deeper crisis of saying, but wait a second, is that even a worthwhile goal? Is that what we're shooting for? And then you have Yeah. So you so you have this no man's land. And then the question I'm kind of and this is very open ended for all of you who are listening, is like, let's say that you think
I want to optimize my life around community and the people that I will have my meals with, who will I play and pray with? What is my connection to the physical world and to nature? And then how do I see myself
Cameron (23:19)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (23:19)
situated in this in a story that transcends me?
Where do you like what are what are the like, is there an institution that helps us do that? I mean, ideally we're gonna say the church will probably come back around that. But I'm just like speaking broadly, culturally
D does my question even make sense to start with? And then it feels like we're falling and flailing and not grabbing anything for young adults on how do you get a foothold?
Cameron (23:50)
Well, what we what often we don't see is because we take our way of life for granted, we don't see how some of what you were describing earlier sets the stage for social breakdown. So that dream you were describing er earlier that was, you know, that you hear when you're fourteen years old, or that you encountered when you talked to these young people in in Boston who saw the misery of their parents, what does that dream actually look like? Well, it l it would involve, say
Go where opportunity leads you. So that means if you have and usually opportunity just means we s means so we used to mean socioeconomic opportunity. So a great job. Hey, it's three states away. Yeah, but you know, it's a really great job. So a lot of people for a long time would just uproot instantly. That leads to displacement. So here's the people the people piece, right? How many how many families are just scattered?
Not only all over the all over the country, in some cases all over the globe. Most.
Nathan (24:54)
Well, mo most. I mean, you run into somebody
like, I've got a son in Phoenix and a daughter in Miami and a kid
Cameron (24:58)
Right. So
Nathan (24:59)
in Michigan like
Cameron (25:01)
what does that mean? That means that previous what was previously the norm, families, people living together, helping to raise one another's children, the traditional village is completely scattered and globalized. What does that lead to? Varying levels of social breakdown. It does. So that's part of our landscape that we just take for granted.
And sometimes it's just helpful. This is why I mean we the late Wendell Berry, to a significant degree, one of the major themes of all of his work was, you know, you oughta think about growing up to stay put. And to say something yeah.
Nathan (25:40)
Mm-hmm. yeah, okay, okay. Yeah, yes,
yes, but how does this not Okay, let's talk about the broader evangelical fold for a second, who is involved in activism, so to speak. we just did a world vision walk for water to raise money to drill wells in Africa, right? Yeah, whatever. We're all involved in that kind of thing. But is your local church actively thinking about how do we as a congregation structure the resources economically to allow the people that have grown up in our congregation to participate well in this community?
That almost seems like beyond the pale or the scope of a church question. So wells in Africa,
Cameron (26:17)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (26:18)
fine. the economic well being of our high school graduates
Cameron (26:24)
Yep. And here's another here's another very practical one, Nathan, because you asked, you know, talking to young people today, how to how how could we even begin to maybe practically think otherwise? Another one, and I I I say this quite a bit, and this is of this is I've lived this out myself. When opportunity knocks, consider not moving. If you have a deep community where you are, and if you value that community, so I have friends who have self sacrificially chosen to stay.
And I know that I was in part the reason for that. I have done the same in my life. And I know you have as well, Nathan. And again, I'm using the word sacrifice advisedly. That comes with a that's often will come with a financial sacrifice. But yet consider not going away. Consider staying. If you have rich and deeply rooted community and you recognize that people and place part as very essential, and it leads that of course leads to prayer.
the people you worship with, the people you pray with, if you see those three as in some way sacrosanct, I'm not saying never move. I'm not saying never do missions work. Of course you hear me carefully. But I'm saying by far the norm is to instantaneously, without a second thought, uproot if something better, quote better, you know, rears its head. I'm saying maybe don't. Think twice about that.
Nathan (27:47)
Yeah. There was a a funny anecdote that happened here. So my my daughter's in eighth grade. She was on a adventure trip with a couple of schools all together and they were sitting around the campfire and the counselor had them go around and say, What are you looking forward to in life? So one said, I'm looking old forward to being old enough to buy alcohol, being o I'm looking forward to being old enough to gamble online. The other one said, I'm looking forward to be old enough to check into a hotel room on my side on on my own and my daughter said, I'm looking forward to having my own family. And everybody's like
What? That's weird. And so we had a we just had a funny
Cameron (28:22)
And yep.
Nathan (28:24)
chuckle about it as a father-daughter conversation where we said, You're being raised to just think so differently than your classmates in the world around you. And and I thought it was funny, she thought it was funny. And and I don't know that that'll ever be a thing for her. but I do I do want to
Cameron (28:40)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (28:41)
I well I think maybe if I'm if I can put a simplistic thing here.
Is that I don't want to be raised with pure individualism or pure institutionalism, but the community, a healthy community helps us in in between those tendencies where the individual or the in industrial economy
Cameron (29:01)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (29:03)
becomes the driving generator of the narrative of what I want to do with my life. And so I feel, Cameron,
Cameron (29:08)
Yeah.
Nathan (29:09)
at a at a that this is our most
scatter brained episode yet, which is saying a lot because we have a lot, but I this is one where I'm just like pushing an idea out here for your consideration. And if you have any wise thoughts of like how do we start to form conversations for the future that are at least asking some of these questions or taking them into consideration. yeah. For your consideration.
Cameron (29:34)
Yeah. But on the other hand, we have given
we have given some pretty practical advice. You know, consider consider not moving instantly. Also, here's another one for you. How about seek accountability and processing with your people? So instead of thinking, This is my decision to make, it is a job being offered to me after all, think about, yeah, but this decision inf affects you and your people. So talk to your people about
it too. You know, that's j
Nathan (29:59)
Mm hmm. It's it's interesting if if i if you
if you look if you look biblically here, that really so McGilcrest started on the people and and nature, the place, and then to the cosmological significance. Really the New Testament perspective is is that you you switch your cosmological posture and understanding first, and then the
Cameron (30:22)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (30:23)
rest of these become a byproduct of that. So we've talked about like
Paul's articulation of this essentially is that salvation is a change of mindset and framing of, you know, fixing your eye mind on Christ, who's seated in the heavenly places, there is a sense in which reframing, developing that common worship alongside a common toil, you don't have to pursue you don't have to pursue pursue community, because if you have common worship and common toil, the community takes care of itself. so there there are some ontological priorities here, I think, of the way in which we would want to start building that.
And again, we're gonna recommend going to church as the starting point for all of this, but yeah, so it's not a free for all totally. There we do have biblical guidance on how this might come together.
Cameron (31:09)
Yeah, and what I think is I sense a second episode, because where I I don't feel scatterbrained, I feel incomplete. Because if you look at the life
Nathan (31:17)
Yeah, that that's that's better.
Cameron (31:19)
Yeah, if you look at the life of many Christians and including, you know, Paul and and heroes of the faith, it's very itinerant. It doesn't look like what Wendell Berry is calling for. And I think often of the the words of Dietrich Bonhoeffer that you bring up quite a bit, Nathan, which where he tells us, you know, community is not is not promised.
To us as Christians. So there is a sense in which we also have to take into account the reality of this being a fallen and less than ideal world, and also a world that is is not yet complete. So that settled sense of people, place, and prayer is not possible for many people. And in
Nathan (32:00)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (32:01)
some cases, if we are to honor God's call and command on our lives.
It won't be possible for us either. I think that is one I think that is one shortcoming in maybe a necessary shortcoming in Wendell Berry's thought, because Wendell Berry's effectiveness is his single minded focus. But in some, in some cases, I can read Wendell Berry and I can think you have had a tremendous blessing to be able to live out some of this to a certain extent, which is not open to many people. And anyway.
Nathan (32:32)
And
Cameron (32:34)
Yeah, I think that's another conversation that needs to be Y Y you went to New York and you went to Stanford on a on a Stegner foundation, and you have an absolutely first rate mind. Yeah. You so yes.
Nathan (32:35)
is the byproduct of him having gone to New York. And he went to New York and he went to California and he went to grad school. Like, yeah, yeah. Yes. Y you didn't
get all all of that out of the well behind your farmhouse in Kentucky. so yeah, take take that with a grain of salt. But what of here's here's a practice that we can lean into. You and I have talked about this. I was talking to one of my
Biological Brothers about this that if you're feeling a bit uneasy, I've been really blessed by the people who are able to be happy for other people who have something that they desire and don't. So I'm thinking of the person who maybe visits our home and would love to have children but doesn't, but can still look and say, this is a good thing, and I'm so glad for you guys that you have this. Maybe it's somebody who has an academic degree and
That you didn't have for various circumstances in life the choice to do. Can you look at that and not be jealous and just say, Thank God, isn't that such a blessing? Isn't it wonderful that there's somebody out here who can do that? So I I think what we can do, the life of J Jesus was never married. Did Jesus think marriage was great? Yes. Did he go to weddings and celebrate? Yes. Did he bless the children? Yes. Did he ever have No. And so I think there's that that balance here, Cameron, that, yeah, I don't think Wendellberry got did this.
You know, he d he didn't take he wasn't a missionary. But but so but the missionary needs to be able to say the goodness and the intent is a stable place. That that brings health and and mission comes out of that. And the person who doesn't have a house needs to be able to say, you know, who's renting and like, someday I hope I own a home. Can you can you get excited for somebody who recently just bought their first house? that I think is one of the places we might want to start in this of saying.
Our ability to rejoice in goodness is independent of whether or not we're actually receiving that goodness personally. And if you can't, then there's some room for us to grow and to work there first of putting our heart in the in the right posture before God. So just a little spiritual discipline to think about are you able to celebrate that which you know is good, even if it isn't happening to you at the moment, for your consideration.
Cameron (34:51)
Mm. It's good.
All right, people in your various places. Tell other people in your various places about us. Thinking out loud. Why don't you want to share the good news of this podcast and what we have to offer and all these rich conversations and us Nathan and I interrupting one another and tying ourselves in knots? Well, of course you do. So and many of you already are doing that. So thank you. And continue to do that. But yeah, like share.
subscribe. And of course, the the real good news is of course the good news of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. So I'm not trying to be
Nathan (35:30)
Okay.
Cameron (35:30)
sacrilegious there. So just wanted to state that for the record. But thank you so much for your your prayers and your support and your conversation. If you'd like to support us financially you can do that as well by going to www.toltogether.com