Christian Contentment, Money & Resentment: What 1 Timothy 6 Teaches
Nathan (00:01)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co host Nathan Rittenhouse.
Cameron (00:04)
And I'm your co host, Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:06)
Today we're gonna spend a little time in First Timothy chapter six talking about some things that seem quite pertinent to the young adults who are our key listening demographic here as it re late to money, pursuit in life, what we're after, bitterness, resentment, contentment, satisfaction. Yeah, you know, these these these things are all relevant as you're trying to figure out how to pay your rent and all that sort of thing. And just on the side, Cameron and I have been having
J yeah, just a a number of conversations, sort of trying to be honest about the the time in which we live. And then I was reading this passage with my kids the other evening and they had some pushback for me. And so I'll
Cameron (00:48)
Mm.
Nathan (00:49)
I'll bring some of that in here. But let me read this to you, say a thought or two, and then Cameron and I want to just discuss this as kind of a practical way of using scripture to think about our own lives in a time in which we live. So in in this section
Paul is writing to Timothy. He's giving him a lot of good life advice. And he's just finished up talking about not basically just don't put up with people who aren't agreeing with sound teaching, like the words of the Lord Jesus Christ. and he's saying the people who want to be contentious about these things are conceited, they don't understand anything, and they have an unhealthy interest in controversies and verbal disputes. So basically the online world now. this gives rise to
Envy, dissension, slanders, and evil suspicions, which we don't see any of in our culture today. And constant bickering by people corrupted in their minds and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a way of making a profit. I'm sure we'll want to come back and talk about that. Now, godliness combined with contentment brings great profit. For we have brought nothing into this world, and so we cannot take a single thing out either. But if we have food and shelter,
We will be satisfied with that. Those who long to be rich, however, stumble into temptation and a trap in many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all evils. Some people, in reaching for it, have strayed from the faith and stabbed themselves with many pains. But you, a person dedicated to God, keep away from all that. Instead pursue righteousness, godliness, faithfulness, love, endurance, and gentleness. Compete well for the faith and lay hold of the eternal life that you are called for,
And made good your confession for in the presence of many witnesses. And then he goes on to give them some more instructions. But I want to leave it there on this. I think sort of the core of this is the idea of him saying, Hey, if we have food and shelter, we'll be satisfied with that. And it feels like we're living at a time in which people are like, Yeah, but we're working pretty hard to come up with food and shelter, and we're not exactly satisfied. And so setting aside the whole what's the degree to which Paul's instructions to Timothy apply to the modern reader.
let's speak as if it does and say what is the wisdom here that the Lord would like us to note or just the basic principles that might be healthy for us to take a deep breath here as we lean into Yeah, doing a good job of living this life well.
Cameron (03:16)
I mean, I think it's helpful to bring in the the context right now. I'm hearing more and more people say this, Nathan, I know you are as well, that we the the previous, I don't know, let's call it thirty years, forty years were really a a historical anomaly. This was Tom Terrence was saying this recently on our podcast. They were an anomaly in the sense that we we experienced, at least in North America, a degree of stability, prosperity, and peace unprecedented in history.
And that now we seem to be moving more toward the norm, which is a considerable, you know, level of economic and you know financial struggle, but also global conflict as well. That's all happening. So it's still the case, Nathan. I want to be careful here. It is still the case that our standard of living here on North American shores is amazing.
Nathan (04:11)
Ridiculous.
Cameron (04:12)
It's ridiculous.
Nathan (04:12)
yeah. Yeah.
Cameron (04:13)
That was the first word that came to my mind too. Yeah, ridiculous it is. It's ridiculous. So by any level of comparison, it is ridiculous. But now, on the other hand, a lot of us are really, a lot of people really are struggling. And you say something quite often that I think is pertinent here and really helpful. You have have told me over the last two years, Nathan, that you're having a lot of conversations with people who are very angry with God.
For not keeping promises he never made. And
Nathan (04:44)
Mm. Yeah.
Cameron (04:45)
I think that bring that in here a little bit because it's helpful.
Nathan (04:49)
Well, so I yeah, well, let's so let's just look at what's said here is is he said, this is Paul writing, if we have food and shelter, we will be satisfied with that. And actually the so you think back then to what did Jesus teach about praying about give us this day our daily bread, not a long term stability plan. foxes have holes and birds have nests, but the son of man has no place to lay his head. Jesus was the ultimate minimalist, and when he called his disciples to follow him.
There wasn't a whole lot promised, you know, you gotta leave your wife, mother, brother, sister, father, you know, let the dead bury their dead. He I mean it's a very low, pick up your cross and follow me. Is, you know, the world hated me, they'll hate you too. It's it is a very austere invitation in some ways. Now he's talking about the fullness of life and and sees a a a bigger picture in in the sense of that. But yeah, Jesus' perspective of what is required
to live a satisfied, wholesome, life of contentment is orders of magnitude lower than what most of us are are yearning
Cameron (05:59)
Well let's
Nathan (06:00)
for.
Cameron (06:00)
sure. Okay, let's add some categories in here just to make some some helpful distinctions. So let's both you and I are ministers. So that puts us in a different if in a different category from so we're we're not in the for profit world. I myself have have never been in the for profit world. Nathan, I don't believe you you have your
Nathan (06:20)
Even when I worked for
like colleges and stuff, they were all non profit institutions. Yeah. W Cameron and I own no
Cameron (06:23)
Yeah. I mean you ha you have yeah, so so not for the most part
Nathan (06:26)
shares of any businesses that we no startups that we were part of pioneering that
Cameron (06:33)
Yes. So I want to speak from from our experience for a second and then move into to other categories of of people who who perhaps are, you know, in the for profit world, which is, you know, fine. It's great. We want we want Christians in in all sectors of of society, of course. But I can so let's let's speak to our past experience here a little bit, Nathan. I've talked about this. So I'm we worked at the largest global apologetics ministry.
In the world,
Nathan (07:02)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (07:03)
period. I mean RZIM was the was the largest. So this was a place where you had you had everything on a large scale. And also there was a kind of mindset there, Nathan. And this is there's a weird conflating that happened here that I that I want to discuss with you because this this is what can be problematic. So on the one hand, there was a healthy push. There is a healthy push in a lot of let's just talk about some there are some bigger ministries in
I'm gonna pick on our own group in the evangelical world. You could do this with the Catholics as well, of course, but we w I this is w we're gonna talk about where we are. There will be a big push sometimes for excellence. That's of course, yeah. I mean, you wanna so in that sense, it's gonna sound strange to speak in these terms, but you'll know what I mean. W you wanna hone your craft as a speaker. So both Nathan and I are speakers. We were speakers with RZIM, we wore some other hats, but so you wanna hone your craft. You want to y you know, and then you have words like professional development. It
I already feel squirming a little bit because we're talking about ministry here, but then there are some unhealthy kind of you've mentioned before, Dylan Nathan, like the Harvard Business Review types of techniques start to come in there. And but what that conflating that I'm talking about is between on the one hand, excellence can sometimes I don't even want to say conflate, it can mutate into an unhealthy ambition that will meet with
Nathan (08:29)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (08:29)
a lot of external validation.
From from from Christian from other Christians, especially a lot of Christians in the professional world, because they'll say, Hey, look, you're you know, you are going for excellence and you wanna stand out for the sake of the kingdom, you wanna seize all of these opportunities, you wanna rise up the ranks, but for you know, for a good cause. You you know you want that that kind of reach and notoriety. I I think I think what I'm saying is making sense, Nathan.
Nathan (08:55)
Yeah.
'Cause 'cause the other side of it is is there also is a long tradition of, well, it's ministry, so therefore basically we can do this with the lowest energy, lowest intensity possible, and everybody's
Cameron (09:08)
Sure.
Nathan (09:08)
gonna be sleeping on concrete on sleeping bags for the entire event. And you know, we're gonna reduce the so the balancing of the professionalism and the participation side of this, the balancing
Cameron (09:19)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (09:20)
of the
Excellence without overdoing it, without being flamboyant of like what is actually sufficient, what's necessary. The I you know why I think why while I know this is so difficult to balance out is when Paul said, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me, that's in the context of him saying that he has learned the secret of being content. But Paul doesn't say, like, I just figured out how to some in some Aristotelian sense figure out the golden mean here, and therefore I'm content.
He's saying it's through the strength that comes from Christ that I have learned to be content. And
Cameron (09:55)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (09:56)
so contentment is a fascinating so a couple years ago, I've told this story before. It was like five o'clock in the morning. I was flying out of Atlanta to go back to a funeral. And yes, this is I about five fifteen, I I got in an Uber and the young lady driving looked in the rear view mirror and she said, How are you this morning?
And I said, you I'm deeply satisfied in life. And she actually hit the brakes. Like, you know, you do this little head nod, like the car stopped. She hit the brakes. Of course, there wasn't any other traffic. We're like in a call de sac a house and thing. And she looked in the rearview mirror and she says, Nobody has ever said that to me as a response to that question before. and we had a great conversation on the way to the airport about satisfaction. but it's interesting that the people that we run into that are content, that are satisfied.
that are filled with joy actually I think stand out more than the people that we bump into who are or are presenting as extremely wealthy or powerful. That's almost the that's almost an expected norm of you can work and buy your way into some of these positions. But this idea of being satisfied and content with what we have is the unicorn it's out there because I I think actually we are trying to buy contentment with our pursuit of these other things.
Which might be where we get into this the love of money being the root of all kinds of evil,
Cameron (11:19)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (11:20)
sort of treadmill.
Cameron (11:22)
Well, I found that for me, it often takes a really hard blow to the head to bring to bring sense into my life. So we
Nathan (11:29)
Yeah.
Cameron (11:30)
not but I went so for me, Nathan, part of this change took place. I mean, we I went from having this massive sense of stability, but I some of that restlessness, that ambition had crept into my life. And
The motivations weren't all pure. And I wanted yeah, I just I I just consistently for me, the giveaway was always, yeah, but I need to do more and I need more and I need to continue developing and I need to continue and more and more and more and more and I got into this endless cycle. And then when it was all all gone, you know, then that's a big story in and of itself. But in you know, long story short, one thing led to another, RZIM imploded, RZIM was gone. We we had resigned and we went from
From all of that, all of that stability, all that structure to it was totally ground zero.
Nathan (12:25)
Forty two million dollars a year.
Cameron (12:28)
Correct. Yes.
That's a yeah, that's that that's the kind of th that's those are the kind of figures we're talking about. And and then to to a completely new way of life. It was and it took me a while to f to s kind of mu sort of muster up the courage to face the fact that things aren't going to go back to normal, so to speak, Cameron when we were all talking about going back to normal in twenty twenty, when it was, you know, the height of the the pandemic and lockdowns and all that. But I'd realize
No, the Lord has led me across a certain threshold. And there's no going back now. And all I can say is, Nathan, it's been part of that journey has involved a deeper level of contentment than I ever could have imagined, with less than I ever could have imagined. So Amen. Yeah.
Nathan (13:15)
Okay, yeah. Well, yes. Yay. Amen. And the peace of God which transcends
all understanding will guard your heart and your mind in Christ Jesus, Paul wrote elsewhere. in Philippians 4. The this the the thing of it is is is is and here's the message that I want you, young listener, to hear. Let's say that you look around the world and you say, actually, you know, my economic situation is different than my parents.
My relational prospects are different than my parents. The housing market is different than what it was for my parents. The and you go and you make a list of grievances. And then I would say to you, okay, let's agree. It's different. Now what do you want to do? So there
Cameron (13:57)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nathan (13:58)
there so there's almost this sense of like, I can I can develop the list of bitterness and grumbling, or I can accept it and say, Yeah, that that was different. That was unique, but also side note.
They had a whole lot of difficult things they had to wrestle with. Like ever no human has scaped by, you know, w without. We've we've also dodged a h a whole number of military drafts and, you know, economic meltdowns within at the end of our careers and things that plenty world wars and you like in fill in a blank. so it's never been easy for anybody, but let's just say it is different. Okay, let's embrace that. And now what we're going to do is we're going to live
in light of what it is that God has revealed to us about how to live, not in light of us feeling like we've lost the vision of somebody else's life from 25 years ago. So it's one of those is a comparison and one yeah yeah, and that whole comparison is a thief of joy. Man, that's a great line. that when you compare yourself to others, oftentimes you're like, wait a second, there's a a dream, the a a promise that I thought was there that's slipping through my fingers.
when we look at what Christ really promised, then that's a different it's a different referent point for what it means to be satisfied and to live with contentment. And that's a hard shift to make, I think. Because the entire like, there's no advertising industry out there for contentment.
Cameron (15:24)
Hm.
Nathan (15:26)
Like th that R yeah. If you were
Cameron (15:27)
That is the death knell of the advertising industry. Contentment?
Nathan (15:30)
content you wouldn't have to go spend money on things that with yeah, spend money you don't have on things you don't need for people you don't like.
Cameron (15:37)
Mm-hmm.
It's a celebration, Nathan. Awkward pivot here for a second. I want to celebrate. And I want to celebrate you, dear listeners. You are we have asked you repeatedly to, if you like thinking out loud, if you like this podcast, to spread the word, you know, to like, share, and subscribe. Dear listeners, dear watchers, you have. We are now at we have surpassed a thousand subscribers on YouTube. This is amazing. And you know what? Wouldn't it be funny? Wouldn't it be ironic? Wouldn't it be cool?
If we got to a hundred K, because I bet we can do it. So keep
Nathan (16:13)
Yeah.
Cameron (16:13)
up the good work. Keep on stalking us. Go ahead, you know, do it stalk us to your heart's content, but tell other people about it. If you like what you're hearing, spread the good word. We really do appreciate it. And if you'd like to support the work that we're doing financially, you can do that by going to www.toltogether.com. All right. Having said that now, Nathan.
Nathan (16:35)
Having said that, we were content with three subscribers, so you know.
Cameron (16:38)
Yeah, right. N not not to undermine everything that that we that
you were just saying and God's word was saying, but I want to talk about I wanna bring in a word here, Nathan, that I think is is is very important. We were talking about it before we start we pressed record, and that is the word resentment.
Nathan (16:55)
Mm-hmm.
Preach.
Cameron (16:57)
Yeah. So that's been that's been something of a mainstay in my mind lately and in several conversations. So it's one thing to fall prey to kind of a selfish ambition. I think we're it's very that's very relatable for all for a lot of us. A kind of restlessness. It's one thing to go kind of chasing personal ambition under the guise of excellence and excuse it. It's another thing, though.
To come to a place. So I'll I'll never forget this, Nathan, our friend John Jirogue, who we we we worked with and is now in Kenya, as a marvelous apologist and speaker in his own right. But I remember him one day saying to me, in just one of one of his many casual moments with me, every day, Cameron, I pr I pray for somebody to come along who can do what I'm doing better than I am. And I remember, you know, I was in my
Late 20s, I think, when he said that. I was just struck dumb by it. Because I was anytime I heard anybody who I thought, you know, was around my age or e or pff heaven forbid, younger, who displayed a higher level of wisdom, instantly was consumed with envy. Thought, my gosh, well, there's the threat right there. That guy, that girl, gotta, you know, gotta hit the books harder. And I was so deeply convicted by that. That resentment, of course, extends beyond.
mere, you know, professional aspirations that that can take on, you know, materialistic guises, you know, what whatever it is. How do we bring these passages and Paul's wisdom to bear on that deep sense of resentment that is also a huge part of our cultural ecosystem, too? I mean, you talked about advertising. I mean, our whole our whole culture is nothing, is almost now nothing but ads. Everything is an advertisement.
Everything is an influencer trying to sell you something. So that breeds resentment on a level that I think is kind of new for us.
Nathan (19:04)
So let's let's talk about resentment here in terms of justice for a second, because I Yeah, let's let's flesh out a definition here because I think that some of what's happening is is is resentment a sense of yeah, that's not fair that that person has that or that person gets to do that, or that person was and so it is what it does is it it puts within you some sort of there's an injustice.
in the in the universe, God doesn't like me, or it's somebody else's fault that I'm in the situation that I'm in. And it it becomes not just comparative, but a
Yeah, an indictment on the structure of reality to some to some extent. you you feel like you're out of harmony with you've been cheated. Yeah.
Cameron (19:52)
You've been cheated. Yeah, you've been cheated
by the universe. You've been cheated by God. yeah, it's resentment. We could just say s quick working definition bitterness toward those who have something you don't. I mean, very, very simple, very bare bones. But then I think you're right to point to that there is a deeper sense to it though, the one that goes beyond just bitterness toward somebody. There a deeper ontological kind of sense where you think, No, I I have been cheated out of something.
That
Nathan (20:23)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (20:23)
is owed me in some sense. You know, I if whether you're that restless minister, and you say, I mean, here's here's a version I hear among a lot of Christians, myself included. I'm on Team Jesus. I did all the right things. You know, I'm not perfect, but my goodness, I pray, I read my Bible, I go to church, and not only that, I live self sacrificially. I've devoted my life to ministry.
Isn't it? I mean, it's just sort of an unwritten rule, you know, kind of quid pro quo that, you know, I should be spared, you know, some of those routine calamities. And and it sounds ridiculous when you say it out loud, but I can honestly say, Nathan, that in seasons of my life that was my expectation. I thought, well, you know, I should be, you know, this kind of stuff should bypass me because I'm I'm doing the right thing. So I should get some sort of immunity here.
Nathan (21:19)
Hey, none of this is new. Signet W No, no, no. We we can go farther back than Paul. David
Cameron (21:21)
And none of it's scriptural, by the way. I should been I should have been listening to what Paul was saying there to Timothy and in Philippians. Yeah.
Nathan (21:28)
David frequently wrestles with this. Why do the ri wicked prosper? There are
Cameron (21:31)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Nathan (21:32)
a whole handful of psalms that th that that wrestle
Cameron (21:34)
I should have been reading the Psalms too. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Nathan (21:37)
with this same thing of and they you know they start off asking the question, but they reach a different conclusion. But it's i th the so the thing of it is is that we have human history as a guide here.
We have scripture as a guide. And what Paul says is that those who are pursuing certain things stumble into temptation and that it's a trap and many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. And so he's he's I think what he's asking Timothy to do is to look at like how does this play out in time. So rather than having a look at the instantaneous moment.
To see trajectories and where they're leading. So, and that's basically what the psalmist are doing, also of like, actually, I see now that this is a short term thing, but it's all going to blow up in their in their face. and so I I that that's a that's a sense that I get here that Paul is calling Timothy to look beyond the the the immediate and to see something well I
Cameron (22:45)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (22:45)
I know that because he says comp.
compete
well for the faith and lay hold of that eternal life that you are called for. I mean that's that's different than saying, Hey, see how much you can amass now,
Cameron (22:56)
This is a side of Paul, Nathan, that I think a lot of us struggle with today, because here's where I I'm gonna bring in a potentially distracting word, but just you'll get what I mean by it. Paul can start to sound quite platonic or neoplatonic sometimes.
Nathan (23:09)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (23:10)
And but he really does. And I'm not I'm not wading into that debate. That's a whole big theological debate right now. Big names are involved and all that. But what I mean, I think where we struggle with it is we we as pragmatic Americans.
We want to say, yeah, but you know, tangible goals, you know, financial responsibility, those are the I mean, we really ought to be focusing on that. We want to be as practical as possible. Sure, nothing wrong with being as practical as possible. Nothing wrong with, you know, finances and tips and strategies. But Paul really repeatedly is saying, cultivate an internal perspective. Think about the long run in etern in terms of eternity.
And even I mean, even he'll he'll use the he is re frequently coming back to athletic metaphors, but
Nathan (24:00)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (24:01)
what does he say there? Even, you know, training the body is of of only so so much use, right? But godliness is
Nathan (24:06)
Mm-hmm. Endurance endurance
is really the f the the athletic
Cameron (24:10)
Yes.
Nathan (24:10)
envision that he picks there. Yeah.
Cameron (24:12)
Yeah, so if if if you really want to bring in some sort of exercise that is really sanctified, it I suppose we must say it's running, right? I'm not a runner, Nathan is. What
Nathan (24:18)
Okay.
Cameron (24:21)
what I do in the gym doesn't count according to Saint Paul. So but yeah, that cultivating that eternal perspective and saying, look, yeah, don't get too hung up on all the cares of this world. And in fact, if you do get too hung up on that stuff, it's a trap. So I think we we need to
recognize that tension a little bit. I I recognize it in myself.
Nathan (24:44)
Yeah, but so
so so here's the funny like here this is why we're not good at this. so I give you the grandpa Rittenhouse version of what's going on in Acts, like when they sold all their possessions and gave to each other and you know everybody's living and had everything in common. And he's like, Well, he's like, honey honeymoons are wonderful. But at the end of the honeymoon, somebody has to go to work. So
Cameron (25:08)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (25:08)
he said, Here you have a whole group of people who are excitedly and correctly celebrating, worshiping God in this way.
And then later you have Paul running around taking up a collection for the poverty of the Christians in Jerusalem. He's like, maybe somebody should have gone to work. you know that there's a and it's it's it's sort of a tongue-in-cheek because that's not really comparing apples to apples there, but it it does have this funny sense of Paul on one hand will say, have this eternal perspective, but the person who doesn't work with their hands shouldn't eat.
And
that if you don't take care of your own family, you're worse than an unbeliever.
Cameron (25:45)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (25:46)
So so he has a a balance in here that is is difficult for us to live comfortably in.
Cameron (25:56)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (25:58)
but but I think it is parallel to the give us this day daily bread. So we're asking for sufficiency, not excess. there's there you get this principle, even in the collecting of the manna, you can g gather one day's worth.
Cameron (26:11)
Right.
Yes.
Nathan (26:12)
that there's
a a sense of dependency that Paul wants us to have on God in the present within our work that cultivates in us an eternal perspective and dependency. And
Cameron (26:23)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nathan (26:25)
and I think 'cause cause my kids were pushing back on Paul, which they frequently do, on this, you know, the love of money is the root of all s kinds of evil. and my daughter was like, I'm pretty sure when I was a little kid and I was l telling a lie that was not motivated by money.
you know, I had him and even the garden. Did that have to do with money? is can we really say it was the root of all evil? And these are great family conversations to have about definite
Cameron (26:48)
Sure, yeah.
Nathan (26:49)
and indefinite articles and whether hyperbole exists and what the construction of the form of the sentence is, and it's a good time. But the the thing that I think he is poking at here is that money and the desire for money is the mechanism by which we often do try to build our own stability. It it is the protective element of if
Cameron (27:06)
Yeah. Yes.
Nathan (27:08)
I if I have X amount in my mind.
then
I can rest comfortably today knowing I will be able to eat tomorrow, or 15 years from now, or when I'm in the nursing home, or after I retire, or and so there's a a justified way in which there's a responsibility that we have to work and to provide. And there's just that slippery temptation then to make that the totality of the vision
Cameron (27:33)
Yeah.
Nathan (27:33)
and the goal of of who we are and what we're about.
Cameron (27:35)
Well, you have to think about money in those deeper terms because he's not yeah. He is drawing attention to the tendency to want to rely on the flesh. I think that would be safe to say as well. And s flesh in scripture, you know, world the flesh and the devil, world doesn't refer to the created order, refer refers to the fallen human order. Flesh would be one way to think about flesh would be not just your obviously your anatomy, but your powers, your human capabilities and powers and your human reach.
And I mean, we we are as human beings capable of a lot. We have some pretty amazing reach. Now, it's nothing in p comparison to God, but we can do some pretty impressive stuff. And the danger with those of us who have impressive skills, I mean, look at the world, you know, the people you look at people who experience success on a massive scale, people who are massively talented, and you look at their achievements, you think, ooh, You look at their personal life and you think, What has happened here? Well
What's the danger there? That you're gonna rely on your flesh. So let me put it this way look at people who have a lot. Look at people who have massive amounts of wealth. You can look at what they have. Ooh, ha. And then you look at who they are. Not always, but often. Why? Well, flesh. The the tendency
Nathan (28:51)
What's
Cameron (28:52)
to rely on yourself and to think, Well, I now have I make my own security. It it's Nebuchadnezzar looking out over all of his state of the art gardens that were you know marvels, architectural marvels
at the time and saying,
Nathan (29:04)
Behold what I have done.
Cameron (29:06)
Yeah, look what I've done. It's all mine.
Nathan (29:09)
So yeah, I
th let's be very clear here. Is it doesn't say that money is the root of all evil. It's actually a compound word with a filio on the front. So it's it's the love of it. It's the infatuation, it's the idolatry of the possession. Because I know people who make buckets of money who are extremely generous, and I know people who make not a lot of money who are extremely infatuated with money. So so the amount that you have doesn't necessarily correspond to the way in which you hold it.
Cameron (29:34)
Absolutely. Can I just add on to that?
Let me add on to that real quickly, Nathan. So I know and the difference between the two broadly, I've noticed, is I know people who have a ton and they're consumed with the pursuit of more of it. And there's that restlessness in them. I know other people who have a ton and I am astonished at how lightly they hold it. It's just it doesn't and it takes a very s a very special kind of person. Usually it's just a person who has a healthy spiritual life.
Really, that's the natural outworking of a healthy spiritual life. And they hold it lightly. And they are they're generous, but they also don't take themselves very seriously. They're the type of person they're very unassuming. Were you to meet them, you would never know that they're like this. Yeah.
Nathan (30:17)
Well, here's the here's here's
the other thing that happens though, Cameron. There there there is a there is a a version of abundance that happens in all sorts of categories. It doesn't have to be just money. That you receive something beyond what you know you deserve. So you receive it as as a gift, as as a grace. And for some people that's financial. They're like, hey, I was just in the right place at the right startup at the right time. This is ridiculous. And I my net worth is disproportionate to the effort that I put in. And so they receive it as a
As a gift for the person who is spiritual, they're going to not receive that triumphalistically, but as a deep responsibility to
Cameron (30:55)
Mm. Yeah.
Nathan (30:58)
say, wait a second, why was this abundance given to me? Was
it for hoarding or for distribution? Yeah, what am I supposed to do with it? And so
Cameron (31:01)
I must steward this. Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan (31:05)
I think there is a that is a healthier role of being blessed into humility. I think that's where the the
Cameron (31:11)
Absolutely.
Nathan (31:12)
like the truly wealthy people that I see, I
Cameron (31:14)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (31:15)
think have recognized.
That was wild. shoot. What am I supposed to be doing with this now? What what are you calling me to, God, that you've you've you've heaped this into my lap? how do I live well in in light of this? But but the thing of it is, and this is where I think this is kind of cool in the in the economy of the gospel, is it's not yeah, different people were given different talents, different numbers of coins, and they were judged not on the number of coins that they were given, but on the way in which they used what they had been given.
So I one of the things that I try to do as a practice and for the last decade or so is think through the level of respect that I have for people is not based off of their occupation or their income. It's based off of the sense that I have that they're doing the thing that God has called them to do. And so there are some Sunday school teachers out there in the world that I'm way more impressed with and have a higher degree of respect for than some investment bankers.
Just because th and it has nothing to do with the the monetary difference in that. It's a it's a sense of are you using your life
in a way that
you're that's a response to a calling of what God wants to see happen. And there are investment bankers who better be investment bankers because that's what God's asking them to do. So to so to
Cameron (32:31)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (32:32)
see it as a to see that in other people and then translate that back into your own life of saying, you know, my dad
Cameron (32:39)
Mm-hmm. That's well said.
Nathan (32:42)
my dad talks about when he was a little kid complaining playing card games as a family. And his his grandfather would always say to him, Julian, you can quit
Or you can play the hand you're dealt. Like those are the two options. Yeah, like and sitting there whining about somebody else got this card, somebody else got like it doesn't it doesn't do you a bit of good in this game. So so I so we use that phrase, you know, it's a common phrase, play the hand you're dealt. but I but as a Christian, we're seeing that there's there's more to it than just like, well, the the universe arbitrarily distributed this to me. there's
Cameron (33:18)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, I think one practice that I that I put into play here, I I don't always get as practical, but I'm gonna try to be real practical here and real concrete. So I've I've been pretty open about some of my own shortcomings here in this episode. And so taking those into account, one a a pretty routine practice of mine is now to thank the Lord for other people's talents on a routine basis. And it's
Nathan (33:47)
Mm, mm-hmm.
Cameron (33:48)
and to so to also the prayer is, Lord, bring them to my attention. But when I see excellence
In whatever sphere in whatever, you know, in whatever whatever, you know, sphere or or place or space or in whatever person. Yeah, just to give the Lord thanks for that. And particularly within our own within my own field of ministry, I see somebody who's just doing such wonderful work and with real excellence, just to praise praise the Lord for it and say, Thank you for this person.
Nathan (34:12)
Yeah. Yeah.
Cameron (34:14)
Thank you for use I but I even do that with books now, Nathan. I'll I'll be reading a book and I'll think this is just an exceptional piece of work. Lord, and even if this person's not I mean
Whoever this person is, it might be, you know, I could be reading Nietzsche. I'm like, you know, father, I don't know all of the divine mechanics of how all of this works, but this man
Nathan (34:27)
Ha ha ha.
Cameron (34:30)
had a very, very profound mind and mind. And even though he, I believe he was deeply misguided on stuff, he's probably led some people astray here and there. I have found some of this so helpful to my own faith. I mean, talk about something that make Nietzsche turn his grave. But yeah, whatever
Nathan (34:45)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (34:45)
you're s whatever you're encountering, if or if I'm listening to something, this this song, I was doing this with John Coltrane the other day.
This song is so beautiful. Thank you for John Coltrane. What amazing talent. It's marvelous. Instead of, man, how could I surpass that or how could I yeah, and it just it puts to death those kind of some fleshly tendencies in a really practical way, and you're giving back to God what is already his. It yeah.
Nathan (35:10)
Two two two other
examples that go along with that. I'm slipping the the guy who wrote the book Habits of the Household, Justin starts with a
Cameron (35:18)
I don't know his name. Yeah.
Nathan (35:19)
B something. Anyway, he talks about doing that, but then also doing that as a compliment. So he he talks about driving in the car with his kids. He's a lawyer, and there's some construction workers, and he says to his kids, Look at those guys. They have this set of skills, look at the cool thing that they're building.
Isn't it amazing that God gave people the ability to make things like that? I can't do that, but I'm amazed by what they and so he's like, how do I
Cameron (35:41)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (35:42)
just cultivate that attitude of being thankful for and amazed and point out at? and then in Disruptive Witten Witness, Alan Jacobs, there you remember that Al Alan Noble, thank you.
Cameron (35:52)
No Alan Noble. Yeah. Yep.
Nathan (35:55)
Very different. Alan Noble has that thing where he says, he said, When I see a beautiful woman, I say, Thank you, God, for her beauty and that it's not mine to enjoy.
Cameron (36:04)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Nathan (36:05)
People
wrestle with that line in the book, but it's an interesting way of of recognizing and giving thanks for the good that we see, but also
Cameron (36:12)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (36:13)
knowing that there are limitations to it and that certain things are given and certain things aren't given to us. They're not not everything is for us that's in the created order.
Cameron (36:20)
Yeah, not everything is
you don't want to move beyond beyond enjoyment to exploitation. And yeah. So yeah, it's a that's a really that's a very wise book. Alan Alan Noble has so many helpful practices for how to live well right now. We recommend we w we like that guy.
Nathan (36:40)
The the the trick here is Cameron is that I don't so we can read a line that says instead, pursue righteousness, godliness, faithfulness, love, endurance, and gentleness.
Cameron (36:49)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (36:54)
what's that mean? I mean there it this this is a lifetime of r right. Yeah so I'm and now now he does obviously link it into Christ and his confession in verse fifteen
Cameron (36:58)
Don't be bad, be good instead. Just stop it. Yeah. Yeah. Sure.
Nathan (37:06)
and sixteen and the eulogy that he gives there is great. But I'm I'm saying none of this is like, well, I listened to a podcast on it, now I got it. These are all I mean, endurance implies a dedicated pursuit of a
passion with intensity for a long duration. I just made that up, but sounds good. like there's there's there's time invested in this. There's intensity
Cameron (37:27)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Nathan (37:29)
invested in like it's it's not you you don't accidentally trip and fall into it.
Cameron (37:31)
Planning strategy. Right. No
you have to work at it. You have to plan. I mean, I I always like Dallas Willard's word he would say plan. You you have to have a plan. You don't drift into righteous behavior or godly behavior. You have to attack it with a plan and a strategy.
Nathan (37:51)
There there are some funny, just before we go, think about a sentence from Jesus like talking about John the Baptist saying he was the greatest man ever born.
Cameron (37:58)
Mm.
Nathan (37:59)
I mean, we're post Alexander the Great, we're post Nebuchadnezzar, you know, like there that guy eating bugs out there in the wilderness. He's
Cameron (38:03)
This guy eating locusts in the desert, yeah. Yep. Yep.
Nathan (38:08)
the greatest. and so Jesus does say, if you want to be, you know, if you want to be great in God's kingdom, learn to be the servant of all. We we sing it frequently. And so there is a topsy turviness.
Cameron (38:20)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (38:20)
to
the kingdom that is actually deeply egalitarian because all you have to have to perform well is nothing. when it comes to the and
Cameron (38:31)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (38:31)
so there's there's a there's a the gate is narrow, but the invitation is deep into this way of life. And so I'm grateful, Cameron, for your friendship and little chance to chat these things out and be reminded of them. And Lord willing, this is a a blessing and a reminder to those of you who have made it.
all the way to the end of this podcast. So thank you guys so much for your time.
Cameron (38:54)
Yeah, you've been listening to Thinking Out Loud, a podcast where we think out loud about current events and Christian Hope.