What did Jesus Really Teach About Violence? Part 1
Cameron (00:00)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co host, Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:04)
And I'm your co host, Nathan Rittenhouse.
Cameron (00:05)
Came across an article about tribalism among Christians in India that got me thinking, Nathan. This one in particular involves the and I just you have to bear with me. I'm always so self-conscious about my pronunciation here. But precisely well, yeah,
Nathan (00:21)
Specifically of Indian dialects. I know, Cameron, that's a real failure in your education, but
Cameron (00:27)
I'm just I'm not very good at this. So the the the kookies and the nagas. But it's a long entangled history and
I'm really not competent to address it. All I can say is that we'll we'll link to the the Christianity Today article in our show notes. But what's happened is, I mean, you have two two peoples in hill country, both of whom that they think both of whom think they have a claim to the land. Is this starting to sound familiar? It's hardly, of course, an isolated incident in the nation of India. This is sort of a perennial human problem. But
The sad fact is that there is you know, there basically there's been a lot of violence in in recent years and there are pastors over there who are doing the very grueling and hard and robustly hopeful work of reconciliation there. But whenever, you know, it's it can seem like two steps forward, three steps back, or ten steps back rather, I mean, these pastors will see see periods of relative peace. They did some there I mean some really remarkable
kind of movements where they, you know, they would they would preach in one another's churches respectively, and there would be, you know, communal apologies. They would have
Nathan (01:41)
And
Cameron (01:41)
soccer matches together. But there is also but then the land disputes emerge once again and then people end up getting killed, taken hostage. And it's just it's it's tough stuff. And what what made it stand out for me, Nathan, is that of course this is these this violence is taking place
It's one thing to hear about it so so if we're talking about India, you hear a lot about nationalist violence or you you hear about Hindu nationals perpetrating violence against Christians. But these are Christians fighting one another. And by fighting one another we're not talking about doctrinal battles that be killing one another.
Nathan (02:18)
Yeah, they're not making YouTube videos, bespirching one another's reputation.
Cameron (02:24)
So that's a thorny conflict. And it you know what it my own personal history with this comes through my dad, who, you know, we were in Europe for my my parents were in Europe for 22 years in Austria. And so dad did a lot of ministry w among the peoples of what was former Yugoslavia. So the Serbs and
Nathan (02:44)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (02:45)
the Croats. And I mean, terrible.
Terrible things happened in that war. unspeakable things happened. I mean, unspeakable things happen in every war, but we we get our term ethnic cleansing from that war. So these people did unspeakable things to one another. And my dad was a part of some of the reconciliation efforts and talked about how unbelievably hard it is when you have people who are ostensibly brothers and sisters in Christ who basically say,
Look, I know I'm supposed to love my my my Christian brothers and sisters, but you know what? This is so much more complex than you could ever imagine. And you c
Nathan (03:28)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (03:29)
I you can't walk a you if you could only walk a mile in my shoes, this just it it can't be done. This is different and how how difficult it is to run up against that particular wall. So I thought we could talk about it. Not that this is easy territory or not that
Nathan (03:43)
Yeah.
Cameron (03:44)
we're gonna necessarily offer any kind of real
helpful insider wisdom here, but just to wrestle with this a little bit too.
Nathan (03:51)
Well, I yeah,
so so I think the the work that is to be done for us and so in some ways we feel like we're thousands of miles away from this. I think we w I I think I do want to say something about something for each of the listener to think about themselves, by the time we get to the end of this. So we I do want to personalize this a bit. But yeah, let's let's run through kind of a rolodex of things that could pop into our mind. I think Rwanda was considered to be one of the greatest missionary successes shortly before everybody
Where half of everybody killed each other with machetes and burned each other, you know, and locked in churches and all sorts of stuff. there's there's no and yeah, and is this a is this a splotch on the face of Christianity? Yes, yes, it is. for sure. Because it is completely antithetical to the ideals laid out for us by Christ. We'll just put it that way. So this is killing other Christians is totally unchristian behavior. There's that.
But let's let's just make sure we're equal opportunity offenders. I'd say that the Orthodox Church in Ukraine and Orthodox Church in Russia right now aren't getting along so hot. massive so it's not just a like, well, these are poorly defined churches and it's not really a well established Christian culture. No, this article in is talking about like Indian theology schools being burned down and that kind of thing. So this isn't just a a a br
Cameron (05:12)
Yeah. Can I expand on that
for a second, Nathan?
Nathan (05:14)
just a broad
cultural label. I mean, we're talking about some true believers t well, hang yeah. Expand a little bit, then I wanna come back and and make some distinctions internally within these groups.
Cameron (05:24)
Yeah, 'cause I I just wanna underscore some of what you're saying. Cause we have to you want to tread delicately, 'cause on the one hand you want to take seriously people who profess faith and behave in this way, that is that is a smear on the church. Absolutely. And after all, Christianity so I think it's perfect perfectly reasonable when people say Christians behaving badly is a serious seriously undermines the credibility of the church. Yes, because I mean Christians, we talk about being transformed by the renewal of one's mind.
Nathan (05:53)
Well
but and also Jesus' high priestly prayer is that the unity of the believers would be part of the testimony to the world that he was from the Father.
Cameron (06:00)
They will they will know you are mine by the love you have for one another. I mean, so these are these are marks of somebody who walks with Jesus. But then there's there is another side to this, and this is brought up in the article here as well. There is a political dimension here that doesn't that doesn't change
Nathan (06:19)
absolutely.
Cameron (06:19)
anything that we've said here necessarily. It doesn't. But here what we we're talking about with regard to these two people, these are land disputes. So I remember an interview with David Bentley Hart.
years ago, and Hart is many things. He's kind of kind of a polyglot, but he's also he really is a historian as well. And he said, he said, I mean David Bentley Hart can be absolutely unsparing with everybody. He's a totally equal opportunity offender and he can be unsparing on the church. But somebody's asked him about wars of religion. And he's, you know, the cr you know, Christian wars of religion, and he he's he says, well, okay. We're we're we're church authorities involved.
Yes, but to call them wars of religion isn't so much inaccurate as meaningless. If you look at the history
Nathan (07:07)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (07:07)
of these wars, they were wars between nation states. And I he's so he's not he's not saying that to take the church off the hook. He's saying that to draw attention to the fact that those political dimensions were huge factors in these disputes. So land disputes, often I mean
Territory or what people get to call home is often at the center of many of these conflicts and pasts act of past acts of violence, forgiveness is unbelievably difficult when there's bloodshed involved and when where's a long long cycle of violence. So just saying that to underscore some of what Nathan Nathan was saying earlier. I think those are it's important factors to bring
Nathan (07:48)
Yeah.
Cameron (07:49)
in.
Nathan (07:49)
And and we can look at let's look at Catholic on Catholic violence during the Spanish Wars of Succession. Was that really Catholic violence on Catholic I mean, they were Catholics, but it was it was a it was a royal royal mess, literally. I mean, it's who gets to run the country. So you have that dynamic. okay, the American Civil War was a Christian fighting
Cameron (08:11)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (08:11)
Christian war. y y yeah
Cameron (08:16)
I w can I recommend
a book on that one? Because it's just if you want to parse that well, the the the Civil War is a theological crisis by Mark Knoll and it's not very long either. It's a it's a fabulous book on the theological dimensions of of that war.
Nathan (08:32)
All right, let's add another one. Philip Jenkins, The Great and Holy War, How World War I became a religious crusade. Both both both both Americans
Cameron (08:37)
That's an amazing book. I more people should read that for sure. Yeah.
Nathan (08:42)
and Germans were pretty sure that the Christian God was on their side in the duties that they had. So the anyway, we could go on and on with this list of now there is an exception in this that somebody, who there was I forget who the theologian was.
Who pointed out who said, say what you will about their weirdness, but the Anabaptist theologies have maintained an example of a group of churches that don't have the blood of other Christians on their hands. that's
Cameron (09:13)
Pretty remarkable actually.
Nathan (09:14)
that's not a I think you're looking at the Hutter Rates are going on like 400 years of community without a homicide. That's notable.
Cameron (09:23)
Very yeah.
Nathan (09:24)
you know, the so
There there's that, but that doesn't mean e even now you're looking at some of the I think some of the Mennonite research on whether or not there were Mennonites who are complicit or turned an eye to some of the Nazi things happening in Germany during so nobody nobody nobody has clean hands coming into this. There are some theological postures that are better than others, but all of those theological postures that haven't fought other Christians have been theologies that allowed them to let go of a place and move somewhere else.
And so it's it's a f it's a fleeing theology. It's a diaspora theology rather than a landed theology.
Cameron (10:01)
Okay, that's hard.
What you just said is incredibly hard for Americans. Because you you you were you
Nathan (10:06)
Right, yeah.
Cameron (10:06)
used words like flee. That goes against the grain of everything. I I'm sorry, I'm skipping all the way from
Nathan (10:09)
Yeah. Well this is the yeah.
Cameron (10:13)
India to America now and just saying that we are predisposed to rail against that kind of dynamic that you just highlighted.
Nathan (10:21)
But but look
at the numbers even in the India conflict going back into the nineties, you do have hundreds of thousands of people who just left.
Cameron (10:27)
Yes.
Nathan (10:28)
So who the the people that remained in the land is where the conflict are. I
Cameron (10:33)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (10:34)
and then and here's the other part that's really, really difficult to diagnose from the outside. I bet everybody listening to this podcast, if you were honest, would say if a local conflict over territory broke out
In my neighborhood, there are members of my church who would act and behave in ways that I would not want to be associated with when it comes to the use of violence. So all of us have, even within our the the
Cameron (11:03)
Absolutely.
Nathan (11:04)
the church is is such a dynamic place of spiritual growth that you have l people on all levels of of of maturity there who are associated with your congregation, even though they might not really even deeply know or understand the teachings and the theology there.
Then it gets worse in tribal regions where your ethnic identity is linked with a a religion. So you have huge places where you say you're Christian mainly to mean you're not Muslim, but that doesn't mean that you have a a deep and abiding relationship with Christ. And you see this play out in some of like, what are some of the details? Like some of this recent violence kicked out is kicked off because a teacher, a Christian teacher from one tribe, confronted some young guys drinking along the road who are part of another tribe. So
You know, is is a Christian school teacher berating some young drunken men in public Christian violence, we're okay. No, that seems like so how does that spiral the spiral into I I'm not doing a good job of of saying what I mean here, other than tr pushing at this idea that there is a lack of definition, I think, in most of these categories for us to be like, no, that is non Christian.
Behavior
Cameron (12:19)
Yes.
Nathan (12:19)
and you can't call yourself a Christian and do this. And it looks like in the Indian context in this, that the tribal leadership is apologizing to each other and saying, these things never should have happened. This is out of bounds, asking for forgiveness.
Cameron (12:32)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (12:32)
And so it's almost like you have a a a cooler set of heads being misrepresented by the younger hot blood underneath it, and they still have to answer for each other's behavior and action. So
In some ways this is an internal community policing issue as much as
Cameron (12:51)
Yeah.
Nathan (12:51)
it is is dueling communities fighting each other.
Cameron (12:55)
Yes, I think what you're saying is very helpful actually because you're helping us to look at the different factors that make such a thing possible. I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna list three of them that you just talked about. So one is lack of or less of a social order in a particular place. The second one is varying levels of maturity within the church. That's really important.
And the third one, this one is gonna sound the most abstract, but I'll make it as clear as I possibly can. The distinction between cultural norms and human beings. Cultural norms tend to take on a life of their own. I'll get to that one last I'll and I'll explain it. That began with Emile. So
Nathan (13:43)
What was your first one again? So we keep this list.
Cameron (13:45)
the first one is the social, the lack of social order. So we're
Nathan (13:48)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Cameron (13:49)
talking about a region.
Or w you talk so many of the places that we talk about don't have the level of infrastructure or the social order that we take for granted in in say a North American neighborhood. Yes.
Nathan (14:00)
yeah, okay. Well let me just let let's list that out. Do you know what
would solve all of this is a government that had a concept of titled land rights and deeds down at the local courthouse of who
Cameron (14:10)
Yes. Yes.
Nathan (14:11)
actually owns this property?
Cameron (14:12)
And that's even and that's in the article. It's pointed out that the
Nathan (14:15)
But but that's that's that's
the only reason we don't have this right now in America, Cameron. We would
Cameron (14:18)
That's the only reason we don't. Well
Nathan (14:20)
we would be doing this if we didn't have that.
Cameron (14:23)
So he's Nathan is absolutely right. That's he's right. That's the only reason. That's why when Ion Hersey Lee answers somebody who says, Why are we, you know, we're so politically divided, we're so polarized, why are we so polarized? Why can't we live with our differences? And she just says, basically.
Nathan (14:39)
I I literally
know people who have shot people over boundary disputes.
Cameron (14:43)
Right. She just said, No, you're taking for granted a level of social order. That's the no anywhere else, yeah, shooting somebody over a land dispute or cutting their throat or k that's just the norm. You so what we have w when you yeah, so the the fact that we're not doing that, we we do not sufficiently appreciate how fragile this this little social order that we have is. That's why outsiders who have come to America
And our spokesman or thinkers are trying to say to us, wake up. It's a fine line between what you have here spewing venom and hatred all over social media and then just flat out just shooting somebody over a property dispute or something like that. I mean, you that's
Nathan (15:27)
Yeah, 'cause everywhere else in the world that is the link.
Cameron (15:29)
exactly what you do. So there's that social order factor. So that's that's part of what's what's that does it explain away Christian on Christian violence? No. But
Is it a factor here? Yes, it is. The varying levels of maturity is incredibly important. You know why? Because I'm finding that one of the biggest challenges to the church right now that is really largely undiscussed is idealism. And if we looked at a church more like an AA center, an Alcoholics Anonymous or a Crisis Center or something like that, I think we would we would make better headway because we would say if you go to it to a group of addicts.
You're gonna find a very mixed group. Some people are further along, some people are gonna relapse, some people are gonna go away and never come back. Some people are gonna go away for a time and come back crawling on their hands and knees, missing a few teeth, but they're back. And they're making and they take it day by day. I mean, that's the picture of people who are recovering sin ac syn addicts. Okay. So if if that's how you see the church, again, that's not a recipe for excusing bad behavior or anything like that. That's just to give us the proper perspective of what we're dealing with.
Stevens Lewis talks about the varying levels of maturity as well in mere Christianity when he's in his section on Christians behaving badly. And again, he doesn't use it as an excuse. He doesn't use it to trying to, you know, color over any of that. He's just saying this is an absolute factor when you're dealing with human beings. So Nathan's totally right to bring that up.
Nathan (16:55)
Well, okay, so you you've given us three, and we didn't talk about the cultural norms and human being. Can yeah,
Cameron (16:59)
Yeah. So that's that's the abstract one, yeah.
Nathan (17:02)
can can I skip to a fourth because I think it fits under number two?
Cameron (17:06)
Do it. Yep.
Nathan (17:07)
Here's the other part. Is so you talked about addiction and rediction recovery. I don't know that we've had a deep br theological how do I want to this is just gonna open a can of work.
We we haven't had an upfront conversation about a theology of violence within American Christianity.
Cameron (17:28)
You did it, Nathan. You opened that can of worms. Okay. Yes. Yep.
Nathan (17:29)
To to to the point of I'm saying I'm I'm just saying
that if we want to look at church as an AA meeting and it's and different levels of addiction, yes, we we recognize addiction to materialism and to debt. Yes, we recognize addiction to all sorts of pharmaceuticals and chemical dependencies and and drugs. But there are there is another there is another factor that is
Cameron (17:52)
Don't you say it. Don't you say it?
Nathan (17:56)
I'm just gonna say I'm just gonna say it because
We're not in the same room, camera can't reach me. There is
Cameron (17:59)
No bo
Nathan (18:00)
a way in which we have not really thought through Jesus' teachings on force, on violence, on bloodshed, on the other and the enemy, even in a way that we would have a starting point, I think,
Cameron (18:15)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (18:15)
of saying, as you come to faith, here is something that is embedded within the cultural subconscious of the world that you live in because you're a human being.
That your natural response to conflict will be violence. And there's another way that Christ wants us to start to think about this. And this is not at all to say, hey, everybody needs to go out and be a conscientious objector and like the whole, like that's you don't have to start there. We can back it way down and just say, let's have a mediocre understanding that you don't have to yell at people in traffic and you don't have to with your spouse and there so so.
'Cause 'cause I think the difficulty in this is like, even though I think Jesus' teachings on this are very extreme and very high moral standard there, I think
Cameron (19:05)
Yes.
Nathan (19:05)
because they're so high, we just don't talk about any level of it at all ever. And so
Cameron (19:13)
Okay.
Nathan (19:13)
that's ch an indictment on this
Cameron (19:17)
All right.
Nathan (19:18)
this is not a problem within Christianity. This is a problem within
the desires of my heart, the culture that I live in and me trying to integrate Christianity into it rather than the other way around.
Cameron (19:29)
All right, Nathan, you've done it. So let me go let me hit that third one real quickly and explain it and then let's spend the rest of the podcast on this fourth point that you've inflicted on us. Just kidding.
Nathan (19:38)
After
having said we have nothing helpful to say here are four things. Number three.
Cameron (19:41)
Right. All
right, the third one, that distinction between human beings and their beliefs and their behavior, and then the cultural norms that tend to take on a life of their own. That distinction was first really looked at by Emil Durkheim, and it was a theory at the time, but it's since been carefully studied and basically it's been confirmed. And the thinker I'm I'm yeah, get your bingo card ready, all you listeners.
James Davison Hunter amplifies this and talks about it in his latest book, Democracy and Solidarity. But let me I think there are some very there's some very practical ways to explain it. So let's say you have mass mass conversions in a third world country, or you w we don't say that anymore, a developing nation. Okay. You have mass conversions to Christianity in a developing nation.
This developing nation, just I mean, just pick pick a developing nation, okay? I don't have to name a specific one, all right? It's a developing nation, and it has long, longstanding corruption, political culture, you know, across the board is just part of the heart and soul of that culture and how everything works. Bunch of people become Christians. Does all that corrup corruption just go away immediately with upon the conversion of all those people? Well, no. And we all know why not why it won't, because first of all,
You're talking about deeply ingrained habits. You're also talking about systematized. Yes, that's a real thing. No, I'm I'm this is not this is not me introducing, you know, becoming a critical theorist or anything, although critical theory does have some insights here. It does become systematized in so think about let's pick on America for a while. What what what's a redlining policy? All right. What are real estate practices that kept segregation happening even after
there were real social reforms, even after there was real progress. The deeply ingrained cultural corruption takes a long time. We're still working on some of this. Okay. Work is still there's still work to be done. There is always work to be done. So those human habits, those human systems, and look, on a personal level, you meet somebody who, and maybe this is you, look, I I I've had a lot of friends who have converted from Islam to Christianity.
And knowing them over the years, they have told me all in their different words and their different ways, there are so many ways of thinking in me that are still still so deeply Islamic because this is such this was such a comprehensive way of life. This was just it's so it's shaped me in ways that I didn't even realize. And I I'm still having to work to to to work through that. Yeah.
Nathan (22:28)
Discipleship takes a while. I mean, it
took Jesus three years of full time contact with twelve guys who still didn't really get it.
Cameron (22:35)
Didn't really get
it. So that's all that that's all that means. So it's actually it sounds abstract, it's not, it's really practical. Yeah, we all have e experience.
Nathan (22:40)
There's a momentum there. Yeah. And
and here's the other thing that's let's let's think about some of those things as a form of pain. It's it's very and you can tell whether or not you've healed from something if you still experience the pain. Like I in 2010, I broke my jaw in five places. I I don't relive, I can't re experience the like I can remember that it hurt, but I don't continue to feel the pain.
of it happening. If you have something like a a scab that is healing and you keep bumping it, it it doesn't take a very big tap for you to be aware of the of the depth of the wound, even though it was a long time ago. And so I I think in some of these things, particularly around land conflicts, and you're saying, well, the church was working in the 1890s on
Cameron (23:32)
Mm.
Nathan (23:32)
some of these projects. When when you have a when you have something that is that deeply rooted
It doesn't
Cameron (23:37)
Mm.
Nathan (23:37)
take a very big tap on the wound
Cameron (23:41)
Yeah.
Nathan (23:41)
to remind everybody of the depth of the pain, whether or not they personally are experiencing it at that moment. Like it's a, it's a it it's it's like tapping the corner of a spider web, it reverberates through the whole system. And
Cameron (23:55)
Yeah.
Nathan (23:55)
so some of these things that are flashpoints, if you're like, how do you get communities kidnapping each other because a teacher talks to boys about drinking?
I a and and it's not just in that. You see I mean, if you can understand Cameron's third point here, then this makes sense of all sorts of stuff that you see all over the news when it comes to specific groups responding in ways that seem totally disproportionate to the actual offense. It's because it's it's vibrating cords of of memory and picking scabs of pain that haven't fully healed, even if the wound was caused a long, long time ago.
Cameron (24:33)
All right. Shifting gears now, Nathan, I'm gonna ask I'm gonna put to you a question, because I think you are in a good position to answer it, given your ecclesiological background and your family background. Why have we not been talking more about violence in our churches in America? Why is this a subject that is so neglected? Obviously you can't give a definitive answer, but let's just try to take a stab at why this is something that we just avoid.
Nathan (25:02)
Okay, a couple things might be at play here that play into some of the other others on this list that you've given. these are largely theological conversations, particularly around whether or not America is the new Israel. And if if you're in your theology, America is the new Israel, then obviously you have divinely sanctioned violence for conquest of territory, structuring all sorts of
forms of government. And so if you're using the Old Testament as an ethical foundation for the modern church's interaction with the world, case closed. There you have it. There's a second huge, so that's that would be one group of Christians. Second group of Christians would look at Jesus's teachings as a largely future tense in the millennium application. So his teachings about the kingdom, the Sermon on the Mount,
All of that has interesting things to say for now, but really isn't intended to practically be exercised as a feasible way of life now. within that theology, really between what Jesus did between being born of a virgin and suffering under Pontius Pilate doesn't have massive consequences for your salvation. The main thing is that you believe in the virgin birth and that he died for your sin. Onward you go. And that
sounds hollow and shallow and veneer cause it is. But that there is a lot of that out there.
Cameron (26:38)
Yeah.
Nathan (26:38)
and so let's just call a spade a spade and say that's that's that as well. So I think between the the two groups that see America as a new Israel and the old testament tactics are operative and those who see the kingdom as an entirely future tense thing, those are going to be the groups
that rise into the prominent positions of working the system of the and the power metrics of what makes us tick as a nation. because largely the Amish during the I don't know, American Revolution went to Canada and Costa Rica. You know, like they they did it like, let's all vote for the right governor to get our now, there is some wild stuff happening in the American Revolution when you look at the Quaker Mennonite Brethren,
Hutter and the Hutterites weren't really operative at that point, of the conversations that were happening in the counties in Pennsylvania that had mass Anabaptist groups in them, that there was some r but that I mean, so so say you have like a a third of the counties in Pennsylvania, that still doesn't define the narrative of a nation at all. So I think there's some some broader theological questions at play there on that of what what does what does it mean to be a Christian?
that spool out. And then and then you have I mean, as you add your Catholicism has had its own history of
running over other countries in in the name of its theology. So it's not a there there isn't a neat tidy
Cameron (28:18)
Yeah.
Nathan (28:19)
doctrinal that that peop people don't recognize the the the theological diversity of the under the umbrella of Christian in America. That's that's my answer number one.
Cameron (28:30)
people don't recognize the theological diversity of Christianity full stop. I think.
Nathan (28:36)
Yeah. I this that's better. Yeah.
Cameron (28:38)
But you're but you're answering a specific question about a about America. And what I took what I also want to draw attention to and what you said is that yeah, these are theological questions. And so these
Nathan (28:51)
They're biblical interpretive frameworks.
Cameron (28:52)
they are biblical interpretive frameworks and they so they these the place for these conversations is in the church.
Nathan (28:59)
Yeah, if you saw the Native Americans as Canaanites
That's gonna matter.
Cameron (29:05)
That's gonna matter. That's gonna that will affect your treatment of the Native Americans. And it did. So this is a conversation that we need to stop pushing to the margins. And I think I think Nate Nathan, so we're we're we're approaching the thirty minute mark here. So what I'm gonna do is perhaps a bit bold. We don't have sufficient time to do this justice, so I I think our Friday episode should talk I I think our next episode let
Let's devote it just just to this topic alone.
Nathan (29:38)
Yeah.
Let let me say let me tell one more story to to tidy to wrap this up in case somebody doesn't get to the sec second episode or something here. But this is not to say that the the problems are all deep and structural and systemic and it takes a long time to change. There are very real stories of individual conversion where people's decisions have made phenomenal differences. And I actually, when I read the history of what the church has been up to in India, am
Impressed actually at what the church has been able to do in this conflict. So there's that. The other one is there's a funny story in my family. this is my one of my great grandmothers who in the in the town in which she lived, there was a butcher. And when he weighed the meat and put it on the scale, he always left his hand on the meat, on
Cameron (30:28)
Mm.
Nathan (30:29)
the scale. So he was effectively selling you the weight of his hand in every transaction. And this was, you know, this went on forever. He was the only butcher, everybody just knew.
This this is how how it goes. And apparently at one point, I don't know, it was revival, something, somehow he got saved and baptized, became a member of the church. And my great grandmother went in and ordered some meat and he put it on the scale. And as he had done probably a hundred thousand times, like put his hand on top of it. And she just looked at him and just shook her head slowly back and forth. And he looked at her and she shook her head slowly back and forth. And then he got it and he took his hand off the scale.
And then from then on he never did it again. So there was no conversation there. It was just a thing
Cameron (31:13)
Yeah.
Nathan (31:13)
of saying, hey, if you're now going to be part of us and representing the church, even corruption that's as minor as putting your hand on the scale has no place. And so that is a form of an internal policing sounds harsh, but it's more like an an internal accountability of saying, Look, if you're gonna say you're gonna be following the ways of Christ, then we can have some
met levels of expectation of honesty. And so there is a way in which simple things like that do over time change the course and structure of an economy or of a society where we're just having the love for the other to to push back and teach and self correct. and the church should be able to function like that in a way that is a blessing to the world around us. And so I I want us to leave thinking this and maybe this is where we'll pick up next time.
is to say that yes, we can point a finger to the other side of the world and say tisk tisk, but I need to think a lot about what am I willing to cling to? Are there things that I'm willing to die for and kill for? And that's a list that isn't a bad one to start working on even in even now. so maybe maybe we'll we'll we'll push in and dive into that a little bit as we go.
Cameron (32:32)
Think on these things and get ready to think on these things with us here very soon. But you've been listening to Thinking Out Loud, a podcast where we think out loud about current events and Christian hope. If you like what you hear, if you're watching us, if you like what you see, thanks. You can tell others about it. So like, share, and subscribe. And if you'd like to support the work that we do financially, you can do that by going to www.toltogether.com.