What did Jesus Really Teach About Violence? Part 2
Nathan (00:00)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co-host Nathan Rittenhouse.
Cameron (00:03)
And I'm your co host, Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:05)
In our previous episode, we started talking about the tragedy of Christian on Christian violence in India and then quickly spiraled out of that into a broader conversation on Christian views on violence in general. And some of the yeah, anyway, it got to be a long conversation, but if you haven't listened to that one, you might want to go back and listen to that part one because we're going to launch from that into the conversation for today. Cameron, for setting this up, I was thinking.
of a I I had a memory of a time in like two thousand eleven or twelve. I was in the UK and Alistair McGrath, well known theologian and professor at Oxford University, was doing some kind of speaking and somebody asked him about Christian f Christian response to violence and Christian forgiveness. And he said, Well of course, you know, Christians believe don't believe in, you know, aren't pro violence and are
you know forgiveness is a core part of our the teaching of what you know Jesus asked us to do. And he's like, I'll give you an example. And the example that he gave was the story of the Nickel Creek mine, the Amish school shooting that had happened a somewhere around the a little prior to
Cameron (01:20)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (01:20)
that. and yeah, I mean the the point fit. Where I I was in the audience I was listening and I was like, but isn't it interesting
Here we're talking about an Anglican making reference to the Amish on a different continent. It it was a the point fit, but he had to reach so far out of what we would think
Cameron (01:49)
Mm.
Nathan (01:50)
of as a mainline Christian thinking in order to grab the example that it it wasn't like he said, yeah, and and
Yeah, every every Christian in this room has examples of this in their own life. And and
Cameron (02:04)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (02:04)
so there was I don't know, it is an odd moment for me just because I had that sense of great point. Yes, I think that's true, but wow, we really had to reach down into the basement to pull out an example that that proved the point.
Cameron (02:18)
Nathan, would it be fair to say, given your ecclesial background, that you have a long history of thinking about violence? That this is not a this is not a subject that's pushed to the mar margins or actually, I don't even think it's pushed to the margins in most church traditions, Nathan, here in the United States and in England or elsewhere. I I think it's just not even on the I don't think it's it it even is an area of awareness.
for many Christians. So
Nathan (02:48)
Yeah. I think that's
Cameron (02:51)
yeah, why is that though? Why so why is I mean, the history of your o your own people is shot through w
with violence,
Nathan (03:00)
Well and
Cameron (03:00)
but not not on the part of not being perpetrated by any of your people.
Nathan (03:04)
Well,
I yeah, I don't want to say that anybody has clean hands in his total blank slate at all. But yeah, so to put my cards on table, blast mm, let's see, sixteen eighty eight, the written houses that came to the
Cameron (03:16)
It's good.
Nathan (03:16)
Pennsylvania were Mennonites and have been some form of Mennonite or Brethren Anabaptist ish for however long that is. so yeah, a lot of thinking about how to relate to and if you think about the radical reformation's rejection, so you have
Martin Luther, the Reformation, and then you have what's so there's a counter Reformation within Catholicism, and then there's a radical reformation that was pretty much the kind of the the ancestors of Anabaptism, which were all in that Catholic Reformed most of them were, you know, either monks or or priest or theologians at the time.
Who said, wait a second, we're not entirely sure that we didn't just replace the Pope with a professor, and that we didn't overthink in in our reaction against the works-based theology, did we overdo grace and have a shallow view of grace that didn't then purport to have any actual discipleship in the way in which the faith was expressed? And so the Radical Reformation was an attempt to balance, I think, some of the pros and the cons of the Protestant and the Catholic Counter-Reformation. And
happened in a context in which there was pretty significant religious violence going back and forth. and so at a certain point, some of the theology of the rejection of the sword was
Cameron (04:38)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (04:38)
just an exhaustion with the political reality of Europe. And you could easily see why there would be people who would be like, hey, can we just like all go sing some songs in a barn and read what Jesus said and, you know, not even play. and so the the separatism
That has been associated with your Amish Mennonite brethren, Hutterite cruise in some ways is theological, but that theology has a history to it as well. And so that that does play into it. So you do end up with a good cr portion of the Anabaptist diaspora being a leaving physical violence. And and a lot of that was religious physical violence. I mean,
Cameron (05:20)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (05:20)
I think my 14th grade.
Twelfth great grandfather was the last one beheaded in Zurich for preaching not in Latin. and so that wasn't,
Cameron (05:31)
Right.
Nathan (05:32)
you know, that wasn't Muslim violence that would cared whether or not you didn't preach in Latin. so there's yeah, that that history is all there. But but what is wild about that crew is that by asking the questions, what did Jesus say and then how do we live in light of it? they were signing like anti slavery stuff in the like sixteen late sixteen eighties in Pennsylvania.
So sometimes they were very theologically way ahead of the curve of where the thing was going, but had almost no political impact
Cameron (06:04)
Okay.
Nathan (06:05)
in in a broader structural way. And so I think it's that lack of maybe caring to some degree, but also a way it's a theology that does not build a country. and so th that's that's in there.
Cameron (06:15)
Very important.
Nathan (06:17)
And but but I want to also throw throw
shout out to, and I think we mentioned this in the previous episode, even when you get up into like the American Revolution, there were a lot of other mainline Protestant thinkers who said, we cannot read Romans 13 talking about having respect for authority and rebel against and that theological movement did not last very long in light of the
Cameron (06:43)
Yeah.
Nathan (06:44)
nationalistic and patriotist patriotic so I'm
I'm not giving definitive clear cuts here's the way things should be. I'm just saying it's complex when we start asking the the why question about how do some of these things come about in our individual and then collective consciousness Christian least thinking.
Cameron (07:00)
Well, you named two things that I think are really important. So number one, certain theological traditions didn't have the luxury of ignoring the topic of violence. So
Nathan (07:10)
yeah,
it y yeah, when your barn is on fire, you don't
Cameron (07:13)
Right.
Nathan (07:13)
really get to
Cameron (07:14)
It was an immediate n necessity to think about this because you if your barn is on fire, you can you've got some options, you know. One of them would be retaliation. And that was something that was not that was not adopted by those in your yet the re members of the Radical Reformation Anabaptists. And so there had to be because necessity forced some very clear cut thinking on on on violence.
The other piece that you said that is really important is that you were that this is not a th a theology that builds a culture or something along those lines or or builds a country.
Nathan (07:47)
Or builds a country, yeah, or or a nation state, I guess, yeah.
Cameron (07:50)
Okay. So that has been a w so we're at a place civilizationally right now where that's a big temptation again. You have a number of different people who are looking to the civilizational value of Christianity. And I think it's very understandable that you, Nathan, have in particular said, Well o okay. I I don't know I
I guess I can be with you up to a point. Some of the byproducts of Christian culture can be good. So the way I've been putting it, just sort of experimentally, we'll see if this sticks, is Christianity nourishing a call a culture? Yes. Christianity
Nathan (08:24)
yeah.
Cameron (08:25)
building a culture? No. No, no, no.
Nathan (08:27)
That's coming from the Presbyterian folks.
Cameron (08:30)
Right, right.
The the the less and the more and more th the pe Presbyterian who is squirming more and more in in his pew. I think in in some ways, if you become any a part of any theological tradition, then that just means that if you're really a member, you're gonna start squirming and saying why am why am I a member?
That's a healthy thing.
Nathan (08:45)
Yeah, that's not to say so
so I I think the thing of it is, Cameron, is it's it's healthy to know where the limitations of the vehicle you're traveling in are. And so I I know a whole bunch of quirks of our family van. It's it's a great van, serves us very well, but I I I also know the limitations of it and where some of the dents and scratches and, you know, vulnerabilities are. And so you're going to, as you think deeply, regardless of the religious tradition that you're in, you're going to find some of those, and that can be just
A healthy part of understanding the vehicle you're in.
Nathan (12:41)
so well let me zoom out and trace two two trains of thought that might just be helpful in in the in thinking here. well, might turn into more than two, but one is think of Augustine's two cities. The really, I mean, I I think you could go farther back than to than the two kingdom theology, then that goes back to Jesus himself. As he told Pilate, My kingdom is not of this world, if it were my servants would fight. There's sort of a foundational arc of the of the plot line. But then Augustine's developing out this the this idea after the fall of Rome, which would be a bit of a tumultuous time for the church to figure out what's going on. Martin Luther plays this out and s and so this this idea of a two kingdom theology
is not new at all. It's just a question of what is the relationship of those two kingdoms to each other. And then what is the Christian role in living as a s as a citizen of heaven within the framework of also being part of a of a nation state or or a country. so that's one whole train of thought if you're kind of kicking around some of these ideas in your head and thinking through what does that mean. There's that. The second one is well let yeah let's do this as a second one.
The culture in which you are are formed very much matters on how you think about this. So you think of the No, actually I'm gonna do it the other way around. Let's think of so think of this in terms of justice and who provides justice. Because this is a a foundational element of the quote practicality of thinking about Jesus' teaching on this. In fact, last night at church we were just doing kind of a blitz study on the concept of God's mercy and
Cameron (14:22)
Mm.
Nathan (14:23)
Man, there are a lot of ties on our mercy being reflected in the way the character of God, but then the proportionality of the measure with which you you use it'll be measured to you looking at God's mercy toward us. And we went through this whole study of of mercy. And at the end I pointed out that the entire thing is predicated on the fact that we believe that God will bring ultimate final justice, that the the the the sovereign of the earth will do right. And so that's a a theology.
It's a biblical truth. It's not a theology. It's a biblical truth to say that God is ultimately even in James, that mercy triumphs over justice. Yeah, mercy for our our role is mercy, God's role is is justice and judgment. Do you really think that God can provide ultimate justice? That's kind of the million dollar question in this. And and it shows up in interesting ways, I think a story I've told before. one that my grandpa told me when he was a young man, they got up to milk
I think they were going on vacation or something. Anyway, their schedule was a little different and they and they got up early, went out to the barn. And so you think about the milk being pumped in the tanks and then the cream separates off and this more valuable, literally the cream of the crop. and so they went into the barn and there was a neighbor was stealing cream off the top of the tank. And so as they come through the door, that guy's going out the back door, and my grandpa is a young man, takes off running, chasing the guy, and
Cameron (15:48)
Mm.
Nathan (15:49)
his dad grabbed him and caught him.
And he's kind of trying to smack his arm, dad's arm away. He's Come on, dad, let me catch him. Like, and his dad said, Now, David, hang on a second here. He said, That man has punishment enough. And grandpa's like, What are you talking about? And he said, Well, he said, think about it. Tonight, when that man goes to bed, he has to go to bed with a thief. that's an interesting way to process that. And I'm not sure about all the even thinking about that, but
So his his assumption is that there is a a sense of judgment and conviction and punishment that he didn't have to meet out because
Cameron (16:29)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Justice is in God's hands. Ultimately. Yeah.
Nathan (16:34)
Justice is in God's hand. So
this is the part where I think as soon as you start saying things like, we want to be careful in and thinking about how much violence we endorse as Christians, the immediate response is, Well, you're just talking about a doormat theology. You're saying that, you know, the world can wipe its feet all over Christians and steal all the cream off their milk and all of that. No, that's that's an extreme misreading of the point. The point is thinking that no justice really does happen.
This is not just Jesus, this is Paul, Romans 12, Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord. that there's that element of it. So there's that. And then the third thing that I want to bring in here and get then get you to comment on is that you don't, you don't just naturally are you're not just naturally born with the impulse to work walk into your place of business and see somebody stealing something and think, wait a second, we don't have to respond. That that comes from a cultural way of thinking and studying scripture that
Just as there are many young men and women who have grown up in churches that have really, really honored military service. I mean, I've been to churches that they're like
Cameron (17:44)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (17:45)
flag parades down the aisle and the f faces of all the servicemen and all of that. And so there's an honoring of that type of service. There are also entire churches that honor the lives of the people who have given their lives for missions or have responded nonviolently, and there's
So there are two whole liturgies at play here within different churches of what is prized, prioritized, and honored and expected of the members as they engage the world. And so you have one church who has maybe a whole wall of a list of the servicemen who have fought and died for their country, and that's seen as a a proper Christian duty and response to nation, and other churches who
Tell deep stories of all the multiple generations of conscientious objectors and people who have been willing to die for but not kill for their country and for their community. And so these are, I think, sometimes two whole separate sub Christian ethoses that we'd that aren't even aware of each other, oftentimes.
Cameron (18:50)
Let's I give a brief I'm gonna give a a very snapshot historical survey of why that's the case. Why for for many violence is part of or is or is is sort of tacitly assumed to be a tragic part of the Christian response when it's needed. So it's not like people would say would be very gung-ho about it. Yes, we need to be violent, but I think the place to
point here in church history, it begins with Constantine. Because with with Constantine you have the first for the first time yeah, okay, so Christianity is is is legalized and some of the pogroms against Christian
Nathan (19:33)
It gives power.
Cameron (19:34)
Christianity are stopped. Yes. So some good stuff there. But yeah, the power is seen. Christianity for the first time is is understood as a civilizational tool, right? You can or a political tool. You can you can build a country or you can build a culture. You can build a civilization with it.
So and Constantine was at the end of his life. I I think it makes sense. There's a there's we don't need to get into the whole scholarly debate about whether he was or wasn't a Christian. Alan Kreider makes the case that at the end of his life he did become a full Christian. But for a long twenty five years, he refused to be catechized and he wasn't baptized until right before he died. Make of that what you will. But yeah, the book to read there is Nathan has recommended this many times to me, and I finally read it and was really grateful I did. The patient
ferment of the early church. Alan Kreidhurt. It's great book. But he so Constantine also did things like torture heretics. And he wasn't, and but that's not an isolated incident. Thomas Aquinas was also in favor of putting to death heretics. And of course, and so I'll pick on my tradition John Calvin notoriously was, you know, there was the there was the execution of Servedus, who was condemned as a heretic.
Nathan (20:47)
But okay, but hang
on, hang on. Let's let me so let me justify those actions. Well, I use justifying aircraft here.
But but think of it. Well,
Cameron (20:55)
Yeah. Yes, do do so. Play devil's advocate.
Nathan (20:58)
so yeah, so let me let me play the advocate here of saying if you really have a theology where you see
A beautiful vision of the outworking of what it is that God wants to have happen on earth. And then there are people who are in the way of that vision. And you're also living in a time in which there's a little bit of the ends justifies the means is is in the in
Cameron (21:25)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (21:26)
the air. You can see how you can justify a lot of pretty wild actions if you're confident that the outcome.
Of those actions is good.
Cameron (21:38)
That's a word of immense caution there too, by the way.
Nathan (21:41)
That's a word of immense caution because it's
Cameron (21:43)
Yeah.
Nathan (21:44)
it's like somebody said, you know, like one of the things that's like, on just war theory is like there's nobody who's ever started a war that they didn't think was just. So
Cameron (21:52)
Yes.
Nathan (21:53)
so it's one of those like it's a it's a tool for helping think through, but it almost always aligns with our initial impulse.
Cameron (22:02)
And I've even heard a sober minded proponent of just war theory say that when you look at the history of warfare, you can find almost no wars that truly are justifiable. Again, that's a just war theorist who who who said that. So and also let me give another example that I think is germane to the point that you're making as you're playing devil's advocate with, you know, what you know, putting to death a
a heretic or torturing a heretic to try to make him or her change her ways their ways, right? Well, remember the the the witch hunts and the witch trials. I remember reading a really good historical account and the person was a good historian and and said, yes, so they were when somebody was earnestly convinced not only that somebody was a witch, but were was practicing witchcraft and actively bringing harm, devastation, plague, death, whatever, to a particular community.
Though of course we would look back on this and and see this as as, you know, as modern people, we would see this as primitive, we would see this as completely unjustified and wicked, it made sense within that time and place to meet out capital punishment in those cases. Because these were people who were who were causing what was believed or perceived to be egregious harm. But once again, that's a word of caution there, because i if you think that God's on your side and you make that argument.
There really are few limits that you can place on what you're gonna do, or there's there's a whole lot less restraint if if you if you say God's on our side. So we s we say that as we say th we give those examples as as words of extreme caution here.
Nathan (23:42)
Well, and I think that's the entirety of this podcast. I we're not going to come to any definitive 'cause 'cause so here's the other wrinkle in this is that I think, Cameron, within let's talk evangelical Protestant American w Western world here, people's minds would be blown to realize the number of theologians, seminary professors, academics who would say, Yeah, Jesus' teachings on this are very clear for the individual.
But it gets complicated when you take it to the state level.
Cameron (24:14)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (24:15)
I'm not so sure that I've heard good conversations in the last decade on the individual level, much less. So so even it's it's even within our theology, there there's a there's a category here for this conversation that isn't being had because it always jumps in immediately into well, what do you do about North Korea?
and that that is a thing, but
Cameron (24:42)
Yeah. Sure.
Nathan (24:45)
really for today I'm not going to have to decide whether or not I want to take up arms against North Korea.
Cameron (24:54)
Well, can I introduce not introduce, let me bring back in something that you said earlier. And it it need not necessarily always be the case that it that it's marginalized groups who think well on nonviolence. Let's just say that it's often the case that it's marginalized groups who think well on this. So in the United States, it would be the black church to we would turn to the black church as a shining example throughout history of how to
faithfully follow Christ without any kind of real power. But so I think I'll pause there.
Nathan (25:29)
Well but s yeah see, but and so
pause there. Let me add this and then you continue your thought. Is this is I think a conversation that's happening more broadly within modern Christianity is to say, wait a second, what if we are looking at ten years down the road, a time in which Christianity doesn't have the political power that it has? Who then can we go to to learn these things? And
Cameron (25:47)
Right. Yes.
Nathan (25:52)
the black churches and the Anabaptist churches might have something to offer us. They they
Cameron (25:55)
Resources. Huge. Yes.
Nathan (25:57)
might be like
It to me it's it's akin to you remember when Lewis and Clark were going to canoe across the country and they ran into the mountains and everybody's
Cameron (26:07)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (26:07)
like, and then they discovered well, like what do you what do you do when you run out of river? Well, you just ask the people who already live there how to like at the end of the river there were people who are like, This is how you get to the coast. I think the church might run into some of these moments in the future where that we run out of river and then we're like, How do we get there? And we find out actually there have been people living here for a couple hundred years.
Who could be helpful to us?
Cameron (26:29)
Yes. And I think some very perceptive voices, yours included, have been saying that. And that's but in for most contemporary Americans who go to, let's say, just a standard evangelical or non denominational church and haven't really thought about violence, perhaps the closest place that they could look in history would be the civil rights movement. And that that's
Nathan (26:51)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Cameron (26:52)
one aspect of it that I find is the inconvenient truth for many people of the civil rights movement, because they don't
They
and it's also helpful to point out that Martin Luther King Jr. was such a polarizing figure in his day that most people really didn't like him at all. Because, like most conciliar or peacemaking kind of people. Now let's let's let's not just I have to always you always have to bring in the footnotes here. There were some there were some dark aspects to Martin Luther King Jr. as well. We get that. We know that. Yep, you can read his biography. There's some there's some stuff there. Okay. But what
But his posture, what he was advocating within the civil rights movement, was itself very powerful. It was deeply divisive, even within the black black community. But be because of course I think under given the circumstances, there were plenty of people who were saying, That's not enough. We need to take up arms. Malcolm X is the guy to pers Yes. Yes.
Nathan (27:41)
Well, Malcolm X is a very compelling character. Go read his biography
sometime. That everybody should do that.
Cameron (27:47)
Absolutely.
And what he's saying makes makes sense. It really does. It makes a lot of good sense. Even
Nathan (27:53)
That's the
dumb thing about this entire conversation, Cameron,
Cameron (27:56)
Mm.
Nathan (27:56)
is that everything that Jesus says does not align with our natural impulses.
Cameron (28:04)
No, it doesn't. That's where you really come to you gotta push, push prast past, push prat past the platitudes and the bromides. he's just a really good moral teacher. When you get into this kind of stuff,
Nathan (28:16)
It'll kill you.
Cameron (28:17)
yeah, I mean this is this is where he looks like he's crazy. Have you are you not, Jesus, are you not in touch with reality? Do you not understand the complexities of okay, life in the in America in the United States for a black person in the 1940s, the 50s, the 60s, you know, or before that, when we're talking about
Nathan (28:33)
I'm sure
as a
Cameron (28:33)
Chattel
slavery and I mean, goodness gracious me, or you know, and we could name countless other, you know, historical examples of, you know, d whether we're talking about developing nations, whether we're t I mean, this this is a hard world.
Nathan (28:47)
But okay, just to as somebody who lived in the first century Roman Empire, he wasn't exactly in a corner of like a little cloistered there's when it comes j j just looking at power and slavery and humanity during that time was Jesus was
Cameron (28:58)
No, there comes a if you zoom out, this is humanity. yeah. The crooked timber of humanity. You see it where I mean when
Nathan (29:07)
well aware of the way that the world works.
Cameron (29:08)
Well, we have the slaughter of the innocents right at right at Jesus' birth. You know, you know, behold Rachel, you know, weeping for her children. She refuses to be comforted because they are no more. I mean, this is why the the I mean the searing
vision of scripture is not one that that shelters you from reality or the realities, the harsh realities of this world. So this isn't a council of of idealism, but Christianity does invite us into a different a com it's a different kingdom. Yes. It is. It's a different way of life.
Nathan (29:39)
But it's it's it's it's
there if you look at the verses, so I'm thinking first Peter two, Jesus suffered leaving you an example.
Cameron (29:47)
Yeah. Yeah. indeed.
Nathan (29:50)
Like
Cameron (29:52)
But see, now fast forward to right now, Nathan, and we and we have understandable but reactions that ought to give us pause for thought. And they go something like this Yeah, our but our rig religious rights are being infringed upon. But we're being marginalized. But the culture is going to seed. We need to abhor evil. okay. I I hear I hear
Nathan (30:14)
Okay. Yeah.
Cameron (30:15)
abhor evil. Somebody said this to me recently.
But Cameron, shouldn't we abhor evil? Sure, but by abhor evil, do you you know, what what kind of weapons are are at our disposal? Are they weapons that bring physical harm to people or are they things like prayer, love, worship of God, the full armor of God? I mean, these are these these are these are the weapons of the church, and they are really powerful and effective, by the way.
More effective than any kind of ph physical instruments or drones or anything else that you can conjure up. But the problem is many people, understandably, because we're humans, we don't believe that. And that's okay. I mean, we need to this is why we cry out, We believe, help our unbelief. We we all need to we all need to pray that. We're all we're we're in a g we're when our backs are against the wall, our temptation is to is to try to rely on our own strength and our own resources and think, okay, but what do we what do we do?
What do we do? How can we fight back?
Nathan (31:15)
Well but
but here's so here's the thing though, is like when I was like nine years old, my Pennsylvania grandparents gave me a little book called Walking with Jesus, True Stories about Real People Who Returned Evil with Good.
W like th
Cameron (31:29)
Wow. Yeah.
Nathan (31:30)
there there are entire st story books filled full of examples of people who just thought creatively and differently.
Cameron (31:38)
What about the Bernstein B bears? Okay. All right. All right. All right. Yep.
Nathan (31:40)
The Bernstein Bears are not in the yeah, they I don't I don't know about their theological I'm just no, I'm just I'm saying
these it's not like these things don't exist. We we we we we ha we there
Cameron (31:51)
The yeah, there are resources there, yeah.
Nathan (31:53)
are resources there, there are stories, there are
Cameron (31:56)
But Nathan, c can I just interrupt you for a second here and just say w but what is what's going on though? You you mentioned churches where and I'm okay, look, just full full war trigger warning, no pun intended there. I'm gonna step on toes here, but w this is part of what we don't talk about. What about the the churches that on that have all these military kind of ceremonies that that honor the fallen and do so largely unthinkingly. Yeah.
Nathan (32:20)
So so you should honor people who you you
should honor people who sacrifice big things. That that is worthwhile doing, but let's not limit the category in which we honor the sacrifices.
Cameron (32:37)
I hope that at the very least I think my modest goal with this particular episode, Nathan, was to just give folks pause for thought if this is a topic that they've never really engaged or that they've never really considered. So we can't like n like you s like you said, Nathan, this is not one that gets solved in one foul swoop at all. Especially
Nathan (33:00)
And it's not
nobody can be argued into a change of heart either. This
Cameron (33:03)
Never.
Nathan (33:04)
this only comes about by I think asking ourselves a couple big questions. And hey, I'm talking about this, but I would in no way claim to have purity of heart toward all enemies and ideas and stuff. Like, but it's it's
Cameron (33:19)
Same. Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan (33:21)
s one of my grandfathers was helpful in this in a
Conversation where somebody said, So you're claiming this, da da da da you're you know, and he's like, I am not claiming anything about the purity of my heart, but he said, I am making a statement about the direction that I'm choosing to grow. And if I want to grow to be like Jesus, then there are certain activities that I can't participate in. So I
Cameron (33:47)
Nathan, speaking
Nathan (33:49)
think that's helpful.
Cameron (33:50)
well, speaking personally, I'll put myself on the on the line here a little bit. You know, you and I have been having this conversation for probably ten years or more, easily, and you never set out in so I I was a typical Christian formed by the evangelical, the American Evangelical Industrial Complex.
Nathan (34:13)
Hey, and we both love Stewart who loves military history, so
Cameron (34:15)
We do, and my dad is is Stewart who loves milit military history. So I had been shaped by a set of tacit assumptions. Tacit assumptions are the most imp are the most powerful. You they're unexamined. You you don't really you just they're just they're kind of they inform what you do without you y usually realizing it. But through my, you know, ten year plus conversation with Nathan Rittenhouse, Nathan never set out to convince me of anything. He really didn't. He just spoke honestly and perceptibly.
perceptively and also from a place of deep reflection that I lacked. And over the course of that time, the my beliefs changed. The philosophical term for that is dogza doxastic involuntarism. The sudden and quiet and invisible and gen gen
Nathan (34:58)
Yes.
Cameron (34:59)
yeah, yeah, very very subtle shift of of beliefs over time. Which, by the way, oughta be happening with all of us if if we're growing, if we're learning, if we if we're, you know, if we if we aim to learn as human beings, that should
If you're if you are completely inflexible in all of your assumptions, that's not a sign of a healthy mind. So anyway, yeah.
Nathan (35:19)
So so
I think we want to look at this as ref questions to reflect on as we grow of saying, do the tea are the teachings of Jesus actual divine commands? That's one to start with. Are the what to what degree are they incumbent upon my life as a disciple? Secondly, who do I really see as in charge of the world? And then in light of that, how do I want to find the proper balance of my involvement in XYZ fill in the blank?
activity, career, choice, whatever. And then to step back and say, Do I have a deep sense of confidence that God will make all things right in the end, that he has a sense of justice, not just eternally, but does God intervene in reality even now that we can put our trust
Cameron (36:07)
Mm.
Nathan (36:08)
in him, that the right thing will happen. And even when it doesn't, will I have to stand before God and give an account for the people that I didn't punch in the face in order to do God's will?
Or will I be asked to have been the one who showed mercy and let God provide the justice? Those are just a couple questions that I always have bouncing around in the back of my mind that as I grow into thinking of that, I hope also soften my heart toward embracing the the weight of glory in all of humanity and in God's creation and reposturing my heart toward thinking, okay, this is difficult territory. And there are times in which
you know, bunker the Battle Bunker Hill, there have been multiple battles where the commanding officers said, Don't shoot till you see the white of their eyes. Their the command was to hold your fire. Not because there wasn't a battle and not because there wasn't a time in which the battle was going to unfold, but because in that time the commander said, Don't. And so thinking about living your life as a Christian as a phase of the battle in which the commander says, Hold your fire, because hey, read Revelation. When Jesus comes back, heads are going to roll.
I mean th th th the story is not over yet. It's a question of is Christ your commanding officer and what does he want of you in this moment? And it most certainly seems to me that as we read through scripture, what he wants is us to be a people of mercy, of forgiveness, of reconciliation, of seeing that the that the other and the enemy can be forgiven and redeemed and brought into the people of God until the time in which the doors of the ark are closed again.
that seems to be the extremely gory, bloody, difficult task that is before us. And we need to be asking the Lord of what we celebrate and what we talk about and what we glorify and what we honor. Who are we cheering for in finding our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who are willing to put their lives on the line for the sake of the kingdom in this way. And in doing so, I ask that the Lord helps me have a have a clear mind about how to to live this well.
in my house, in my community, with my family, with my friends, with my neighbors, with my church, and then let it trickle up from there into the way in which we think about how do we be a blessing to the world for the glory of God. So that's the project that I find myself on these days.
Cameron (38:32)
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