the Anglican Breakup & The $10 Million Cannon Press Offer
Cameron (00:01)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co-host Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:04)
And I'm your cohost, Nathan Rittenhouse. In this episode, we discuss two big news items. One is the whole situation with the Anglican church and the Bishop of Canterbury and the African global church. Lots going on with the Anglicans. And then also maybe a less known is Canon Press has offered to buy Christianity today for $10 million. Both of these represent some seismic shifts in the foundations of some traditional structures. And, ⁓ they mean something symbolically. Cameron and I work through this and discuss it. Don't know that we come out of this with
Here's five things you should do as a response, but I think this conversation will be helpful to you as you watch the Christian world around you change. Like, share, and subscribe to our content. And if you appreciate the work we want to do and want to support us, you can do so by visiting www.toltogether.com.
Cameron (00:08)
two seemingly unrelated events that I think actually are connected. So one, the Anglican communion, according to some, has been definitively severed. But according to, I think the majority of Anglicans actually, Nathan, it hasn't been severed. The Church of England is not in front and center anymore, and now it's global Anglicans.
Nathan (00:34)
The Church of England is not Anglican. Just
put it in the most flamboyant way you can. The Church of England is no longer Anglican.
Cameron (00:38)
That's the way this-
Yeah, and that's the way the global Anglican movement will put it. They'll say, no, no, no, there's been no breaking of fellowship. There's been Anglicanism itself.
Nathan (00:52)
Well, back us up, back us up. Walk
us through what's actually happened to get us to say such a thing. As neither of us are Anglicans, I'm sure we have all sorts of insightful and helpful thoughts here.
Cameron (01:04)
Well, this has been a long time coming and it brings up... So the Anglican Church was the Church of England. obviously the church was itself, is established in England and is thus headquartered in England.
Nathan (01:22)
There's some kind of
Anglo connection in the name. I don't know if we can Anglo Anglican. Yeah, seems like there ought to be a connection there. Yeah.
Cameron (01:26)
Yeah. So hence the name,
hence the name. For a long time, the Church of England has been on a progressive trajectory in the realm of, well, so the big issue of our day, most of the big issues surround identity and sexual ethics, practically speaking. And so the Church of England has for a long time been affirming of same-sex unions,
and ordaining gay clergy. That's happened as well. what changed here was the announcement that the new Archbishop of Canterbury, so the former was Justin Welby, is is going, is Dame Sarah Mullally. I believe I'm saying her name correctly, Sarah Mullally. So she, this is the first time in the church's history.
that a woman has served in this role. So, I'm gonna pause there.
Nathan (02:28)
Okay, hang on, hang on, because already we're in tricky territory
here because people are gonna say, like people are just fired up because it's a patriarchal anti-woman kind of, okay, there could well be some of that. However, there's a whole lot more to it than this. so this news came out a couple of weeks ago that she was the new Archbishop of Canterbury. ⁓ But I think there's been least a decade long.
Cameron (02:53)
⁓ absolutely.
Nathan (02:53)
conversation within,
at least, of... I remember even when I lived in Oxford, there was a conversation about a lady who was the vicar of a local church who was an atheist, but she's like, you don't have to be... you don't actually have to believe in order to the liturgy here. So you kind of had that sort of... and you had very vibrant, spiritually vibrant Anglican churches, and then you had kind of your more...
academicy, political, whatever it is when you have an atheist who's just leading your life. That spectrum has always been there and that's caused massive tensions for the past, which is why the Ugandan bishop or diocese or however they phrase that has become such an explosive growth center out of Africa. mean, so the idea that you would have churches in England who are no longer under Canterbury, but under the African diocese is not new. This has all been happening.
but it's part of a broader, and a lot of the stuff that I've listened to and talked through with the nominational shifts and changes, a lot of it is the surface level languages around sexuality and identity, but that's really kind of a bubble in the paint of a deeper issue, which is biblical authority and how you use scripture. And so the announcement of this lady as the Archbishop of Canterbury,
Cameron (04:07)
Yeah. So let's get there. That's important. Yeah.
Nathan (04:14)
set off a far bigger explosion than the fact that she's female. It has more to do with her views on scripture, her views on sexuality, her being in favor of legal abortion. ⁓ So there's a ⁓ whole basket of issues that about 85 % of the Anglicans in the rest of the world would look at and be like, how do we get to these positions from scripture? And so that is the issue.
Cameron (04:25)
She's pro. Yeah, I was gonna say she's pro choice as well. Yeah.
Well,
the whole thing was hanging together by gossamer thin threads for a long time. So this, her appointment represents the culmination of something that's been, we've been building to this point for a long time. And so now we're here. And you mentioned, so let's talk about it in terms of structures of authority. This is very...
I would do this being confessionally reformed, but this happens to be a big part of this. You mentioned the authority of scripture. So for Anglicans, for faithful Anglicans in the global south, they would say that their primary binding documents would be number one, scripture, the authority of God. And then the secondary documents would be things like the 39 articles.
Which by the way, if you haven't read, it's worth going and reading those, by the way. All of these church confessions, these Protestant church confessions are really helpful from the Augsburg Confession, Heidelberg Catechism to the 39 Articles. This is good stuff, by the way. The 39 Articles, the 16th.
Nathan (05:56)
I have some issues with the 30-9
Articles, but I mean, it would help you understand Anglicans.
Cameron (06:00)
and
I do a little bit too. Yeah. So, I mean, you can, I'm not saying that you just take it with unqualified, but I'm saying it's worth looking at it. But then the 1662 book of common prayer and then less, less remarked on these days, the ordinal. But the ordinal is, if you look at that word, it'll, you you'll get a clue. The ordinal is basically, that's basically the protocol and the procedures for ordination. So those would be the main, those are the sort of
binding confessions of the Anglican Church. And the global Anglican movement is saying all of those have been significantly abandoned by the Church of England. therefore, because they don't adhere to this, they are no longer Anglican. And we're not breaking fellowship. They're not Anglican anymore. That's pretty crude way of putting it, but yeah.
Nathan (06:45)
So.
That is the repeated theme across all of the church separations
that have happened is your usually larger, more stable economically and spiritually ⁓ conservative groups have all said that they're not leaving the denomination that the denomination left them. That's the repeated
Cameron (07:05)
And also.
Right. Same with, same,
well, same with the Methodist Church, by the way. That's the other, that's a really close parallel here. so now you have the, you have United Methodism and now you have the global Methodist movement. And it's, and they, this has arisen over issues that are almost, almost identical here.
Nathan (07:17)
right, yeah.
Why does it feel like a celebration to me though? Like my wife and I were talking about this over breakfast and she's like fist pumping of like, this is really exciting for the Anglican church. Like I see a lot of growth and vitality coming out of this. ⁓ and there's a little bit of, of ironic hilarity in that you're going to have an Anglican just by the name Anglican church is now headquartered in run out of Africa. seems, seems to be a win. Like it seems good to me. I don't why.
Cameron (07:44)
Yeah
Yeah, I mean it's amazing.
It does to us because we're not
Anglican, I think. Yeah, so I have a lot of friends, and I'm sure you Nate.
Nathan (08:01)
Yeah
I'm not saying that there won't be a
lot of hurt here, but I think I'm saying long-term strategic missional.
Cameron (08:10)
Okay, so I have a lot of friends.
No, I'm with you on that. So yes, yes, yes, yes, absolutely. But I have a lot of friends who are Anglican. I have a lot of friends who are formerly United Methodist. And there's a great deal of sorrow there because you care so you love, this is your church, this is your denomination, it's your home. You love this fellowship, you love these people. So there's some.
Nathan (08:32)
hang on.
So time out.
in the last two years, I left a denomination that my family has been part of for eight generations. So I've, I know this from the inside out, but in one of the conversations, there was a guy who's a little bit older than me who said this sentence that I think is a great summary of it. He said, I had the, I had the choice to stay in the church of my fathers or stay in the faith of my fathers.
Cameron (08:41)
Yeah, that's true. got you know, you know this from the inside. Yeah.
Nathan (09:03)
And I chose the faith of my fathers over the church of my fathers. And I was like, that's a zinger. So, ⁓
Cameron (09:05)
Well put. Yeah, that's well put. But it doesn't change. It's well put, but
it doesn't change the fact that you can know that in your heart and you can have an in your head, but it's still exquisitely painful when you see this kind of breakdown.
Nathan (09:21)
I think
so it is if it surprises you, but my experience has been Methodist brethren, whole lot of it is people by and large saw this coming from a decade plus away. So there's, there's a little bit of a sense in which sometimes these things happen and it's, it's not a radical shift as much as it is in name. It like, we're just calling a spade a spade now. So, so yes, there will be people who are caught off guard and there will be
property issues, but that already happened with the Anglican Church of North America. So some of this is... ⁓
Cameron (09:57)
But it also, Nathan, it's hard for people who, so let me, I think our own denominational differences here are going to influence our response here a little bit. mean, how could they not? How could they not? That's always the case. But we always speak from a certain place. If the place that you're speaking from puts more symbolic weight on location and property and buildings, then
Nathan (10:14)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (10:27)
The loss of Canterbury is gonna mean something very, very powerful. You know what I mean? There's going to be a sense of irrevocable loss. And even though you can say out loud the sentence, they're not Anglican anymore. So.
Therefore, mean, and a church is, you know, a church is ultimately not a building. It's not about those properties. It's not about all of that. It's a fellowship of believers who are worshiping the Lord in spirit and truth. Truth, truth being very important here in that sentence. You can say that and you can believe and it's true, but your heart may still break at the loss of Canterbury and all that it represents and all that it means. And I think that's important to just to say that out loud because I would be more,
I'd be more in the, you know, I'm not as, I don't come from as, I don't come from an Anabaptist tradition. So there is going to be more symbolic weight to buildings and property and some of that for me. So I think that's probably why I feel that a little more deeply along with my, same with my friends who are United Methodist. But, so I just think, I think it's important to say that out loud as well. Where you, where you're standing is going to depend. Yeah.
Nathan (11:29)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Well, I...
So, so that's true theologically, but it's also true in our experience. And so somebody who's just gone through...
12 years of conversations and then leaving the denomination and catching kind of a gasp of fresh air on the other side of those entanglements, I'm going to look at this differently also. So, some of it is not just theological. It's just experience over the last few years of saying some of these things do get abnormally compressed into conversations that feel restrictive for actually carrying on the
Cameron (12:02)
Yeah.
sure.
Nathan (12:25)
function in the mission of the church and that once those are gone, there's a little breath of that. But the Anglicans are in a much better shape to do this than a lot of others because they have such a massive global fellowship and I mean, in the African spiritual vibrancy of it all. It's not like they're jumping out of a boat into the water. They're jumping off of a boat onto a ship. And so that's
Cameron (12:42)
Yeah.
And now you have also the Anglican Church of North America, ACNA, who are likely going to join this global Anglican movement because they've remained faithful to Christian, know, to orthodoxy and the authority of scripture. In fact, I have a friend who was just ordained with in the Anglican Church of North America. So he, yeah.
Nathan (13:13)
We know a ton of, I mean, shoot, we even know charismatic
Anglicans. mean, so the word Anglican is a very, ⁓ so that you have like the no music Anglicans and the like jump up and down and clap your hands Anglicans, you know, so there's, there's a lot of diversity there. ⁓ but can, can I take us in a different little direction? Because so Aaron was saying, my wife, Aaron could, could the, could Canterbury not see this coming? I, that
Cameron (13:18)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sure. Yeah.
Nathan (13:42)
And to me, it's paradigmatic of a much broader shift where you have like a small urban cluster of academic elites who are so out of touch with the vast majority. Yeah, but I'm saying even that's part of our underlying political narrative right now too, is that you have a small cluster of elites who don't really know or care what these, you know, these I remember, well, I won't get down that
Cameron (13:55)
exactly what you dealt with isn't it exactly yeah
⁓ absolutely.
Nathan (14:11)
like some Ugandan friends what they were saying a decade ago. But there's a sense in which there's an ideological capture of the head of some organizations that I don't think within the context in which they're operating, could they really have chosen somebody who wasn't a pro-LGBT, pro-abortion, down on scriptural authority woman? was there the freedom to choose anything other than that while at the same time
The vast majority of the church is like, hang on a second, this seems like a deviation from what we said we were doing.
Cameron (14:47)
We're gonna come back to a central, this is a central tension of the Christian life that we bring up over and over again on this podcast. If we wanna put it in very understated terms, it's very hard to have a high level of cultural influence and remain faithful.
Nathan (15:03)
Well, there you go.
Cameron (15:04)
And we don't like to hear that though. We still don't in North America because we, it's so everybody, nobody likes to hear that because everybody likes, hey, we like power and we like cultural influence. those things are not always necessarily bad. In North America, we think very pragmatically about it. Hey, cultural influence means we can change the culture for the better. Yeah, it also means that the culture might change you for the worse.
That's the lesson we just never seem to get through our heads. And it's, it's an important one. so, but then we'll also say, I mean, I've heard this said it very ironically, very highly influential, you know, evangelical conferences. The church just seems to thrive during it, you know, in times of adversity and persecution. Okay. You can say that on one side of your mouth and then the other side of your mouth, you start screaming about how, Hey, we're being marginalized and mistreated and we want more cultural influence. Okay.
Well, maybe the cultural influence is hurting you and maybe the more of it goes away, maybe the stronger your prophetic witness. And so I like cultural influence as much as the next guy. I'm not, it's not like I'm some masochist saying, hey, I'd like to be marginalized, please. But ultimately I do want to pray some version of thy will be done and say to my Lord, I want ultimately
what's best and I want success in your eyes. And if that means less financial incentives, if that means less property, less cultural influence, but deeper fidelity to you and a more pure witness, then so be it.
Nathan (16:50)
Well, so well said, but can we also point on going by that the value of a global church is that you have some outriggers as it were, like you have some stabilizing points that are outside of your own microculture. And so, you know, as one element can maybe get sucked into a cultural narrative, your African brothers and sisters who aren't sucked into that same cultural narrative can, you know, raise a hand politely or throw a little flag and be like,
⁓ Hey, are you, are you thinking clearly about, know, what you've said are your actual, commitments here? So that's, that's part of the value of the larger church too, which is part of the way that God speaks to his people is through other people. mean, obviously scripture is primary, but even that is God revealing his will to people who are then being used as people to speak to other people. ⁓ yeah, you want to go carefully there.
Cameron (17:43)
All right.
So I opened 17 minutes ago saying, Hey, there are two things that may seem to, that may not seem to be related, but we believe that they are. So here's the other thing we haven't brought it up yet. We talked about Doug Wilson a while ago. We'll talk about him a little bit again today. He's sort of implicated in this. This is, but this is, this is, hope to show you how this is related. So Canon Press, which is.
Nathan (18:01)
⁓ It'll probably happen again.
Cameron (18:11)
was initially, it's part of Doug Wilson's whole empire, kingdom. I mean, really there are no, Offered to buy Christianity Today. Some of you may not know this. They made Christianity Today a fairly lucrative offer. They offered them $10 million for the magazine. And there were some Christians who thought, hey, you should take them up on this because after all Christianity Today was.
Nathan (18:16)
ecosystem.
Cameron (18:40)
the evangelical flagship, operative word being was. That's right. And if we want to, yeah, if we want to return to that initial vision, Billy Graham and, you know, Carl F. Henry, when the magazine first began, then Canon Press, those guys are the ones who can take you back. Megan Basham was one of the people who said this. So they, you know, spoiler alert, they did not.
Nathan (18:42)
Billy Graham. He got it rolling.
Cameron (19:05)
take Canon Press up on the offer. But Christianity Today has changed hands a little bit here recently. So they have a new president and it's Marvin Olasky. So he's a pretty big name in Christianity. Yeah, former World Magazine journalist and made a pretty dramatic exit from World Magazine. Yeah, so we're not going to...
Nathan (19:19)
World Magazine.
Yeah, that's a whole other episode. Actually, might have done one on
that years ago.
Cameron (19:35)
We might
have done one on that. I think we did. Yeah, you can look it up But anyway, so Marvin Alasky is now heading up the the magazine Russell Russell Moore has a different I think he's editor at large now So his positions changed a little bit but the idea but the idea there is that you have now so is is Christianity today at all comparable to Canterbury well in sense no, but for evangelicals it does
Christianity today ⁓ is a very important symbolic symbol of evangelicalism.
Nathan (20:05)
Well, so let me say that. Let me put another
line under that. There's what the thing is, and then there's what the thing represents. And so Canterbury and Christianity today, and they are cultural symbols of a core or a previous core, however you want to look at that. So it means something ⁓ that this is...
Cameron (20:26)
It's an important,
the word brand feels crude here. It's an important symbol of evangelicalism in North America, Christianity Today is. And there are many who feel that Christianity Today has, we should, this is where I really want to burrow into this with you, Nathan, because I'd like to interrogate this a little bit. They believe Christianity Today has compromised its values. I've seen, I'm not going to name them, but I've seen prominent apologists, for instance, call Christianity Today woke.
I maintain that woke is almost useless term these days in some ways because it doesn't, that doesn't really say much, but let's, let's burrow into that a little bit. Yeah. What is going on? Yeah.
Nathan (21:03)
So, okay, let's burrow in a little bit here because what is
going on? And this is not recent. It seems like the core of this argument is maybe five years old. There was a point in time at which, okay, so Russell Moore, Marvin Oleski, not huge Trump guys. So that probably was the initial fire that lit the spark on a lot of this stuff. But then you look at,
Cameron (21:17)
Yeah, sure.
Nathan (21:33)
Christianity today did take on a broader social series of interest. Whether that be there's a lot of environmental policy stuff, a lot of eco-theology, whatnot going on there. Definitely a push and expansion on the female leadership side, the hermeneutics with the her men, get it, her, she, her, hermeneutics. so there are a lot more female writers in that way. ⁓ A lot less maybe
Cameron (21:54)
Yeah, ⁓ yeah, Clever.
Nathan (22:02)
precision on political categories that some people would have liked for there to have been during certain times in the past. ⁓ What are some of other ones that...
Cameron (22:14)
I think you've named basically the big ones.
Nathan (22:16)
⁓
the racial—they're definitely the way in which racial conversations happen. So, those types of articles became more prominent.
Cameron (22:21)
An emphasis on racial justice, yes, and social justice in general.
Yeah, I think we need to add one more feature here and then I think we've done it. I think also Russell Moore for many people is a very polarizing figure because he spends a good bit of his time. So it's not just that he's, you mentioned he's not too enthusiastic about Trump. He's very vocally anti-Trump as is Marvin Alasky. So you're stating it in diplomatic terms, but also
Nathan (22:54)
Yeah.
Cameron (22:59)
He's quite hard on evangelicalism. So evangelicalism is frequently in his crosshairs. David French should be another one who's in that category.
Nathan (23:06)
So,
those guys would all be ⁓ in-house critics of some of the broader American theological movements in American Christianity. So, I think if you take that constellation of things that we just listed, any of those could be trigger categories for a host of different groups of people for variety of reasons. Take them all together. It's a little bit of a ⁓ hammer.
Cameron (23:14)
They are, that's a great way of putting it. Yep.
but take them all together. Goodness.
But can I say a few things that are going
to be a very eye-opening here?
Nathan (23:37)
Let
me ask this question and then you say that thing. Is an interest in those categories, some synonymous with woke? And go.
Cameron (23:40)
Sure. We might be saying the same thing, I bet.
Yeah. So, short answer, no. But also here are some other questions though. Has Christianity today changed its views on the authority of scripture, on sexual ethics, and on abortion? Have the editorial staff changed any positions in any of those major categories?
The answer is no. And the answer is an emphatic no on all of them. So what's interesting here is we are talking, and this is very relevant for North America right now. Politics and tone are unbelievably important to North American theologically conservative Christians, because that's what's going on with Christianity today. It's a matter of politics and tone.
Nathan (24:42)
It went a little more Tim Keller
winsomeness route.
Cameron (24:47)
Exactly. Yes, it did. Now the magazine has paid a price for that. I don't have all the definitive figures, but I do know that there's been a high level of turnover at Christianity Today lately. A number of people have recently lost their jobs because I know that there's been a decrease in subscriptions. When they took the stand on Trump, so that was in 2016, that was a major, major editorial.
Or was it was it? Yeah, it was 2016 decision. And, you know, it, it costs the magazine quite a lot to take that stand. And, know, regardless of what you think about what they did there, yeah.
Nathan (25:27)
So it'd be interesting.
Yeah, well, there's another sense in this of like, I used to have a subscription to Christianity today and I don't anymore. But I didn't drop the subscription for any like one specific reason. just felt I have to do a little self analysis. It just didn't feel as relevant or as insightful to me on understanding what was happening in the world maybe as it once did in the past. But I should rethink that.
Cameron (25:54)
Hey, I can, well, can I do some soul searching on that with you?
Nathan (25:56)
It just fizzled.
Yeah, it just fizzled for me more than it irritated me.
Cameron (26:03)
So I'll do some soul searching on that one with you for just a second because I'm in a somewhat similar category. So I do, I still very much appreciate a lot of Christianity today and what they're doing. I think they're trying to, I think it is hard to be an evangelical, a major evangelical publication in America right now. mean, it's just as it is hard to be a major evangelical institution in America, in North America right now. It's a tough thing to do because evangelicalism is going through a big identity crisis. You've got a generational shift happening. You have all of this, you have a,
a very volatile political environment. mean, all these factors are militating against you. Here's how I'd spell it out, Nathan. Christianity today, at its best, can be very discerning and offer you some good, incisive Christian commentary on what's going on right now. At its worst, it can feel like it's chasing fads and fashions.
and that because it's doing that, it's out of touch. And its key competitor right now is World Magazine. And World Magazine, I don't know, I mean, I'm not a journalist, but looks a lot to me like Christianity Today did 20 years ago.
Nathan (27:16)
So my daughter gets World Teen Magazine as kind of a
Yeah, that's interesting. Hmm. Yeah.
Cameron (27:27)
Yeah, so I mean,
now that's not, and I wanna be an equal opportunity offender here. honestly, Nathan, I feel the same way for somewhat similar reasons about something like First Things. So I really like First Things in many ways, but in other ways, I think the magazine dug its heels in in some areas where it was, it's not so much, so with,
First things, it's not so much that it's chasing fads and fashions. Well, it is, I think, in a different way. First things goes a little bit more in...
kind of identitarian direction. And I'm not just saying that because it's featured some people who make integralist arguments and things like that. Although I do have a, obviously you and I have serious problems with that, but there's just, it would be okay if there were the occasional article about that, but in recent years it's taken on more of a combative culture warring antagonistic. It's leaned all the way into that.
Nathan (28:34)
Okay.
Cameron (28:36)
That feels very much of a piece with our moment too. Anyway, it's hard. This is all, hard.
Nathan (28:36)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So here's the thing though.
Let's get back to the Canon Press ⁓ buyout offer though, because I bet you Canon Press could make more money with CT under the Canon Press model than CT is making with its current model.
Cameron (28:45)
Yeah. Let's do it.
That was their key argument. I'm, yeah, I totally agree with you. Yes. Yeah.
Nathan (28:59)
Now,
that's not an argument for doing something, but I'm saying in a sense there's way in which...
Cameron (29:03)
⁓ Pause
for a second. not? Because you're right, but a lot of people think it is. In fact, I've heard many people make that argument. So say a little bit more about why it's not.
Nathan (29:07)
Yeah.
Well, I mean, if, if, if money numbers, growth and progress were the virtues and values of the new Testament, things would look very different. Just turns out that those aren't prioritized. Um, to, to still some Paul's King North categories there of what constitutes the machine. Um, the, so the thing that is though, is that it still is a valuable.
Cameron (29:27)
Okay, that's as good an answer as any. there you go. Okay, good.
Yes, there you go.
Nathan (29:44)
So, so I think Canon Press was buying it not to save it, but because of its symbolic cultural value and influence.
Cameron (29:52)
⁓ I think it's cultural capital for sure. mean, ⁓ that would have been a very shrewd purchase. ⁓
Nathan (29:59)
Yeah. So there's, what.
Cameron (30:01)
Yeah, because the brand,
the name means something still, yeah.
Nathan (30:05)
So what are we saying then? there, so kind of the theme of what we've been discussing here for the last half hour is, the shifting foundations and cores and tones of some large global Anglican church, Christianity, whatever. and these are types of things that are, so there are these two that we've discussed briefly, but these are one of hundreds of issues that in the last two years and in the next 10 years will come up where there will be a massive resorting and restructuring.
of the institutional nature of Christian denominations and organizations. And we're here for it watch it all happen and to try to think about how to navigate that well means that we will have to have our own set of standards to play by so to speak. And so I think Cameron, that's why thinking out loud is annoying to some people who listen to us for a little bit is because we, we don't
Cameron (30:35)
Hmm.
Nathan (31:02)
neatly fit into some of the grooves and ruts that were supposed to within the subcultures of certain brands of Christianity slip into. And so we're playing with a... ⁓ You know, it's very important. There was an interview that Ross Douthat did with Amy Barrett, the Supreme Court Justice, and he was saying, are you... like, how does the role of the Trump presidency fit into the policy? And she's like, you're thinking... this is not a good question. She said, we're making policy...
and making decisions for decades after Trump is president. We're not thinking in terms of this moment. We're thinking about what are the core things that hold our country together that help us be constitutionally faithful for hundreds of years after this. so thinking out loud in a sense is operating on the same thing of saying, if we look at scripture, what is God speaking and wanting? If we look at the history of the church, what are some of the ways in which
There have been great ideas and huge blessings. What are some of the big pitfalls? What are some of the disasters that we can learn from? What have been some of the temptations and the distractions? Where have we been ⁓ captured by culture and unable to articulate? And we've lost our witness sometimes because of our coziness to certain ideas and themes. And we're legitimately trying to stay back from that, not from a...
Like, we're superior hands off and we transcend this all and we know it. But to say, actually, we need to ask what are the legitimate tools and resources for making decisions moving forward. And that's, that's what we're trying to sort out as we do this. And that's what everybody's trying to sort out is that we do this. And so it requires a, a, a very well-developed personal and I think communal filter of saying, Hey, as the...
Publishing house that does our Sunday school material changes Do we just go along with that or do we have actual principles as a congregation? We're saying, know what? This doesn't really fit what we're trying to do anymore when the magazines that we've had subscriptions to or maybe there are new magazines that you're like You know what? Actually, this is helpful or the podcast that we used to listen to or maybe new podcasts that we pick up where we're saying we're trying to work through not based off of the feels but off of a rigorous set of what we deem to be biblically healthy
or divine, yeah, divinely revealed to be healthy as informed to us by scripture. so in doing so, Cameron and I are never going to, you know, this fit neatly into. So there are a lot of articles at Christianity Today that I could learn something from if I disagree with them. There are tons of books. I know of very few books that I'm like, yes, I'm 100 % on board with that. I know of no news websites that I'm like, I agree with everything. Like it just doesn't exist. And so the craving for
⁓ ideological purity where I can find a groove where somebody will always tell me what's right and wrong. A. Seems pie-in-the-sky wish fulfillment to me. B. Dangerous. And C. ⁓ A rejection of the responsibility that we have as individual thinking discerning Christians and congregations. And so, that's the value that thinking out loud is to me personally, is to continuously throw stuff out and bounce it off Cameron.
⁓ because I have to have that out loud, reciprocated conversation, ⁓ weigh it out as we go kind of thing, rather than here's the 10 point email that I get each morning that tells me how to the world. I don't know anybody who operates well like that.
Cameron (34:40)
Yes. And apologies for repeatedly. Well, I guess we'll, as the kids say, sorry, not sorry for repeatedly frustrating you and annoying you for refusing to fit into some of those neat cultural categories. But thank you also sincerely for sticking with us for those of you who have and for wrestling through this with us. I'm with Nathan. think the, the dialogical wrestling match is a necessary part of walking by faith, but not by sight for God's people. We do that together.
That's iron sharpening iron. And we do that ultimately, one hopes for the glory of God and out of love for one another, but supremely out of love for God. You've been listening to Thinking Out Loud, a podcast where we think out loud about current events and Christian hope.
Nathan (35:26)
Tune in next time to hear Cameron say more words like dialogical.