The Hidden Cost of Globalization

Nathan (00:01)

Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co-host, Nathan Rittenhouse.

Cameron (00:05)

and I'm your co-host Cameron McAllister. In this episode, we talk about globalization and some of the challenges and vulnerabilities that exposes us to, and we consider that specifically through the lens of the overproduction of soybeans in North America right now, tariffs affecting that, a massive bailout is probably coming as well. So lest you think that this goes in a purely political direction, let me assure you it does not. This is Thinking Out Loud.

We talk about some of the theological ramifications and also we talk about what practically we can do to live in a world that increasingly seems to work against our own cultures, our own customs, and even individuality and diversity. This will be helpful to you as you think through some of these issues. As always, you can like, share, and subscribe. And if you want to support the work that we do,

You can do that by going to www.toltogether.com and clicking on the donate button.

Nathan (00:07)

We want to talk a little bit about the difficulties, challenges, questions, and responsibilities of living in a hyper-globalized world at a time in which some of the assumed normalcy of globalization is being pulled back. Different flavors of nationalism or protectionism ⁓ are at play in the political world around us. And then thinking about that as a Christian and how all this pertains. ⁓ I want to get your thoughts on some of this, Cameron. Here's, let's jump in with a...

kind of a little metric that we've used in the past. I know your dad's talked about it before. I forget where he got it. But if you think of concentric circles where the outside circle is your area of interest, then the one ⁓ inside is the area of concern. And then the one in the middle is the area of focus. We've used this before when we've talked about empathy or care or concern or reading the news. And I've found those to be largely helpful categories. There's the things that you're interested in, but

You can't really be concerned about like every single thing in the world. ⁓ you know, what the dolphin population is off the coast of Japan might be interesting. I don't know what it is. Not deeply concerned about right now. Then there are like things that you're probably concerned about, you know, whether or not there's a shifting tectonic plate under your town, ⁓ something like that. And then there are things that you're focused on that like this really is, is a large percentage of my day or even a calling that I am called to focus on a hyper specific.

spot. interest, concern, focus. And that works to a certain extent. I want to ask you, Cameron, about what happens when that starts to break down. And the way that I'm thinking of this is actually through American farm policy right now and some of the massive fiscal crunch that we're seeing. let me lay this. Yeah. Well, it's farm and foreign. And this is the interesting part of this. just to catch everybody up to speed who hasn't been following the news or doesn't know anybody who grows soybeans.

Cameron (01:50)

farm, not foreign.

Nathan (02:03)

The situation is this, is that the U.S. produces crazy amounts of grain. mean, the agricultural productivity of the United States is phenomenal. ⁓ It's nuts. Like for example, we grow three times more corn than the number of acres in England. Like just think about that. Our corn patch is three times the size of another country. So our capacity to produce is wild. In fact, this year,

Corn growers in the U.S. are going to plant 2 % less acres than during the Civil War, but harvest 790 % more corn.

Think about that. using 2 % less land and producing almost 800 % more corn in the same space. So on one hand, now I know there's a whole lot of ecological environmental stuff in markets below that, but just to say our capacity to grow corn is very high. Here's the thing. We grow way more than we could ever possibly use as a country. So lot of that obviously needs foreign exports.

Cameron (02:47)

It's hard to their head around that.

Nathan (03:14)

And one of the massive buyers historically for corn and soybeans ⁓ has been China. And just to be clear, the corn and the soybeans that are grown at this scale are not the, this isn't sweet corn. This is what we turn into ethanol and livestock feed. But if you go get a ear of corn out of a field and it's terrible, like it is not palatable by humans. There's a reason that we turn it into syrup and cornstarch and all kinds of other things, because you wouldn't want to eat it. Pigs and cows enjoy it, but we're not talking about human food here. We're talking about food that feeds

the that humans eat. ⁓ So anyway, China buys a bunch of it and we kind of have a system in place where the farmer goes to the bank, bars a couple hundred thousand bucks in seeds, fuel, and plants the crop. And then if the crop doesn't make it, then we have this whole crazy subsidized crop federal insurance thing. If the crop does make it, then they get to sell that and recoup their losses and hopefully pay back some of their debt. So you're talking about

farms that are largely leveraged against the value of their own land to produce a crop and then hoping to get paid for that and cover their expenses at the end of the year. due to the whole tariff thing, China's like, nope, we've stockpiled tons of soybeans and you know, Brazil, Argentina, some of the South American countries have really been ramping up their grain production. China's switched over to that. And so you're looking at a situation in which you have farmers ⁓

all across the country, particularly in the Midwest and the big green growing regions who suddenly have literal ton, thousands and thousands of tons of a product that nobody is buying. ⁓ and then you're not going to get paid for it. And then obviously you're going to default on your loans and maybe even your own property. So big collapse coming. then just like happened when this happened in the first Trump administration, there'll probably be a huge bailout. ⁓ so we'll spend billions of dollars to keep farmers going, growing crops that nobody wants or needs.

The and that's it's all complicated. I'm using all of this as a story to say that we're living in a time in which it's harder to work through the paradigm of interest concern and focus because now you have farmers forming groups and hopping on buses and flying or planes and flying to Cambodia to ride around on buses looking for you know export markets for their soybeans ⁓ and anything that you buy off of Amazon that has a made in China sticker on it like it's

Cameron (05:40)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (05:40)

It's really, really is hard to think locally because a tsunami and like the war in Ukraine changes the futures of corn in the U.S. like it's, it's how do you, how do we live in this? I think is the question where it used to be globalization is great, globalization great, you know, big markets. And then there's a little bit like, no, eat fresh, eat local. ⁓ look at the little library at the end of your street, you know, small is cool.

Cameron (06:10)

No.

Nathan (06:10)

⁓

Yeah, there's some, it's a, it's a weird time to be living and to try to make sense of what is my responsibility? What should we be interested on? And, and how do we focus and make sense of all of this?

Cameron (06:27)

Well, one of the recognitions now, I mean, it's more than ever is that globalization for all of its advantages comes with amazing vulnerabilities because now one weak link in one nation or one conflict, one war affects everybody because we're all, we're all players now in this globalized system. Absolutely.

Nathan (06:50)

And COVID really highlighted this, right? Supply chain shutdown in Taiwan

brings the production of specialized bicycles to a grinding halt or whatever. ⁓

Cameron (07:02)

Absolutely. It was this amazing set of chain reactions, many of them in international settings, that was affecting housing developments in your area or bicycle production, you name it. Where are all the avocados? so yeah, and that's another story as well. The habit that we have of thinking that we should be able to eat anything anytime in or out of season, all that.

So there's that sense of vulnerability. There's also the other side of this, Nathan, is there's a growing tension in many nations. You see this with the European Union, for instance, where a lot of these countries really want to hold on to their national identities and their customs, but there's tremendous pressure to not do that, to drop all of that.

There's a bigger issue here where modernity, and this is painting in very broad strokes, but just kind of homogenizes everything and grinds it all down to the kind of the same bland, big, massive market. But then when you do have these sorts of, you've got tariffs now in the mix and all of that, you're going to, get the system begins to buckle and

Nathan (08:12)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (08:32)

There's this huge vulnerability. also think Nathan of the UK, the UK, mean, England used to be distinguished by what it makes. You know, it produced lots of goods. It produces not, not in your, no, in our lifetimes that I mean, my dad, so the, last great kind of gasps were happening probably in the, what I would say the 1960s or something like that, right around when my dad was, growing up. That's when Great Britain was

Nathan (08:42)

Mm. Yeah, but not really in my lifetime.

Cameron (09:02)

ceasing to be so great, but now it produces nothing. It's totally dependent and it's been consistently weakened. Its culture is dying. There's a growing also recognition there that we need to be able to take care of ourselves. We ⁓ need to have some sort of independence in our different regions, but we've got this whole global setup that

Nathan (09:30)

Well, let me give an example that,

Cameron (09:32)

Bill dates against that, you know? Yeah.

Nathan (09:33)

yeah, so because you can look at, you know, all the conversations about multiculturalism as a failed project in the UK. Well, let's take another example. ⁓ Is ⁓ it concerning if you end up with the population of Italy being predominantly French and eating pasta that's grown, that's made from wheat grown in North Dakota? Is that the success of globalism or is that the loss of something?

That's the question we're asking in our time.

Cameron (10:01)

And I think one phrase that was really helpful was coined by Marshall McLuhan. That man coined a lot of phrases, but remember he was the first guy, he was the one who gave us the global village. And so that's what we were moving toward as globalization really took effect. Yes, so it's a big question and you can, it's

Nathan (10:14)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (10:30)

It's divided right now, I think unhelpfully. I'd love to get your thoughts on this, Nathan. So the question you just posed, does that represent a loss? So if you have majority French population in Italy consuming pasta that's been produced in North Dakota, does that represent a loss? I think that most people, when they're answering this, ⁓ an answer along political lines. I think that's a mistake. I think it goes deeper than that.

But I'd love to hear you weigh in. always, this always gets cashed out in political terms right now. Well, you know, if you're a stick in the mud kind of conservative, you want, you know, you want to hold on to customs and you don't want to change. think change is, you think change is bad, but if you're a progressive, then you think, ⁓ we need to modernize and move on. And, but I, I don't know that that's necessarily the most helpful way to talk about it. I'd love to hear you. Yeah.

Nathan (11:02)

Well, but...

Well,

let me not answer your question, but complicate it, in that the reason that I think the political lines are not helpful is look at how they've shifted. So, if you think of a— let's go back 10 years— that eating healthy food, maybe you're slightly anti-vax, you're a little skeptical of the pharmaceutical industry, ⁓ you want to eat local food. Which political party is that?

Cameron (11:24)

boy.

Nathan (11:47)

That's the left. Now you have the whole maha thing, the other, you know, it's like the RFK junior was the dream of the suburban Democrat mom 20 years ago, but he's on the other side of the, mean, so it's like all of these things on, from all kinds of fiscal stuff, or even if you look at, nationalizing, ⁓ tech companies in order to, ⁓ maintain sovereignty over certain technologies as a form of national security.

Whose move is it to nationalize private companies? Is that the Republican Party you knew? No. So, all of these things are... the political lines are zigzags and crags. They don't even ⁓ work on some of these deeper issues. So, there's me not answering your question, but saying that that's why our fundamental analysis is difficult.

Cameron (12:40)

One way to get at the loss piece, I think, is think about the regional accent. I like the way Wendell Berry laments the loss of regional accents. And if you've ever heard him talk, the man sounds like he comes from Kentucky. But he talks about how that increasing sense of homogenization that I mentioned. mean, listen to me. I'm an example of this.

My accent, I talk like somebody from nowhere. I am a broadcasters dream. I was once told by a guy who worked in radio, yeah, you have the perfect voice for this. You enunciate very clearly and you have no distinction whatsoever in your accent. gee, thanks. You sound like you're from Kansas, in other words.

Nathan (13:30)

I'm from no, I'm

from nowhere. ⁓ yeah.

Cameron (13:33)

Yes, because the joke used to be that they wanted news anchors to be from Kansas. Because I guess Kansas has one of the most non-distinct, neutral accents out there.

Nathan (13:42)

neutral. Okay,

so let me take a stab at answering your question. I think, as a Christian, we should be radically pro-diversity. I think the loss of diversity is a travesty. ⁓ So, let's use a corn example. out, there used to be regional corn varieties. That's not true anymore, because people don't use open pollinated corn, so you don't have a regional

flavor, but, or an easy one is cheese. or, ⁓ you know, the cheeses are named after the towns or your cattle, your Guernsey's and your jerseys are named after actual islands. And, ⁓ so you had this. Hereford from herefordshire and Angus from, you know, the Aberdeen, like the Angus, the, so you can look at all of the, or apple trees or varieties of, of, ⁓ fruits and vegetables. All of them had, why do people talk about Italian pasta or

German alcohol or sausage or ⁓ South Korean kimchi or what does it mean to go out and get Thai food or we have this expectation that these things are all good. There's something assumed in it that we celebrate ⁓ and we want there to be this diversity. At the same time, all of our cultural and economic structures and educational systems

are opposed to the existence of those things. That seems to me to be the crunch point that we're trying to put our finger on here that we can't quite process.

Cameron (15:21)

So why is that a loss? Why is it the world of those differences and those distinctions? I think we should say out loud why that, it's why that it's a loss.

Nathan (15:34)

I mean, so maybe there's, could start off by, think most people would just say there's an aesthetic thing to this. ⁓ I like the fact that there are different colors of flowers in the world. I like that the stars are different brightnesses because they're different distances. I mean, there's something about the, about difference that shows complexity that is a part of glory and splendor. That, that you like, why do people want to visit different national parks? Because the national parks are all different.

There's something about the discovery and the exploration and the fact that the complexity of humanity is too great to be contained in any one culture.

There is a loss when we get down to only the type of apple that tastes terrible but can be shipped internationally the easiest. That seems like not the right goal.

Cameron (16:35)

There's definitely, so there's what you've mentioned a bunch of things here. There's definitely a loss of quality with some of this stuff. You get an inferior product. I mean, that's a gross word, I guess, but you get an inferior apple because of demand and all of that. There's also a sense, I think another one I could add to this would be the dilution of a distinct culture that can happen when you have a rich heritage.

and set of customs that are now either being forgotten or lost or left behind or just mixed and matched. I'm going to give a crude example of this, but I think it speaks symbolic volumes. There was a TikTok trend for a while of getting a Costco pizza and dipping it into chicken tikka masala. So get an Indian curry, a good Indian curry. ⁓

Nathan (17:30)

You

Cameron (17:34)

and then get this Costco pizza and dip it into the curry. And apparently it tastes fantastic. Now on the one hand, yeah, could just, yeah, that actually doesn't sound bad. You could say, wow, that sounds pretty good. But think about that in deeper terms, the constant mixing and matching, it sounds almost like a form of culinary syncretism where you have two completely different forms of food with a whole.

Nathan (17:41)

I'm up for trying that.

Cameron (18:01)

constellation of practices behind them that are so very different and customs. And they use blend and mix and match them. The same thing happens when you see these fusion restaurants that just bring all different kinds of foods together and just throw them all in a blender. So on the one hand, it might be an interesting hack and you might get some cool new flavors, but on the other hand, dilution is also happening and you are clearly losing something. Curry,

Pizza was not meant to be, mean, curry is not meant to be mixed with pizza. That's right.

Nathan (18:33)

You heard it here first, folks. Well, okay, how about this, Cameron? Maybe here's what we're wrestling with. Is that the grinding everything down to the lowest common denominator operates under a philosophy that unity is only possible with uniformity. And the gospel does not do that. So even when Paul is saying there is no slave nor free, Greek nor Jew, ⁓ male nor female,

He doesn't think those categories stopped existing. He's saying there's something broader that unifies them all the way through the vision, Revelation 7, of men and women from every single tribe and nation and tongue and language in worship. That seems to me to be the goal of the unity and diversity side of this. ⁓

Cameron (19:12)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (19:24)

that I would hate if it wasn't there. So to say that there's cultural difference does not mean to say that there can't be unity in a cosmic understanding of who God is, the way we relate to each other in reality. ⁓ But it's part of the discovery ⁓ and also part of the, like, it's interesting to think about humans being made in the image of God. And if we were all one skin shade,

Cameron (19:28)

There's a really powerful, yeah.

Nathan (19:52)

That would make us think something may be specific about God, but we're not. So there's an expression of the complexity of the character of God that I think is manifest in the diversity of the people-culture relationships and even geography and the flora and fauna of the world around us.

Cameron (20:10)

And I think a powerful example here would be think about Pentecost. I come, I turned to that actually quite a bit when I think about the flattening effects of modernization or just the post-industrial world, but how when you have this, the Holy Spirit comes upon the disciples and then there's a great multitude who hear them. And do they, are they all speaking exactly the same? No.

They're each being, everybody is hearing the person in their own language. You have a beautiful picture of unity and diversity coming together there and unity does not equal uniformity. The unity is brought together by Christ the head, the way, the truth and the life.

Nathan (20:59)

Yeah, and in Babel, so at Pentecost, you're watching reverse Babel. Because in Babel, people could not be trusted to all say and do and think the same thing, or they would turn themselves into gods. At Pentecost, the power of God was made manifest in such a way that people could be entrusted with unity, even in their diversity, once again.

Cameron (21:00)

but they're hearing in different languages. Yeah, I love that.

Right.

Yes, because these people were seeking the kingdom rather than their own self-deification. I think that's a beautiful, I mean, it's an event. It's an historical event and it's a powerful story also for our time. It speaks right to the heart of so many of these issues. But in the meantime, Nathan, I'm curious, is there, because you mentioned some of these, know, small is great and local movements.

that seem to be gaining traction for a while. Is that still a growing, is that movement still gaining traction or is it slowed down a little bit? I mean, there seems to be more of, yeah.

Nathan (22:08)

it's a secondary movement.

It's secondary to pricing. So if you're going to say, I'm going to wear a pair of shoes that was made by my local cobbler and they cost me $312 or I'm going to pick up a pair on sale for $57 on, pick your website or, you know, retail chain store, which one are you going to do? So you have to be

pretty philosophically committed to the idea in order for... So I think this ebbs and flows in times of the perspectives on the economy, basically. When people have a little more breathing room in their wallet than the mom and pop store, ⁓ it's a cool thing to support and be part of. ⁓ When eggs are 97 cents, you're not going to buy them at the farmer's market unless you're really ideologically committed.

I think it all comes down to this entire conversation is fundamentally one that's driven by economics, not by philosophy for the most part, or theology.

Cameron (23:16)

Or, yeah, yep, now that makes sense. In our day-to-day lives, Nathan, what are some practices that you find helpful in, I don't wanna say counteracting, but in narrowing down on that focus for where you actually live and pouring into the place where you exercise the most immediate influence?

Nathan (23:42)

Okay, so here's, and I'm not good at this, but this is the framework that I have in my mind. ⁓ If I were to, so I live in West Virginia. If I were to get up and I read that there's a huge rainstorm in California, the news tends to try to take everything global and make it seem like it's an immediate local crisis. If it's not raining where I, if I look out the window and it's not, I'm not taking an umbrella. I can look at my own local news and my own local weather forecast.

And I don't change my life based off of what's happening in another state or another nation or another country. I can't live as if everything in every other part of the world is an indicative of what it is that I should be doing with my life. That's an impossibility and it's ludicrous to think so. So one thing is to push back against ⁓ the everything altogether, every place, all at once kind of mindset of I have to know and understand everything immediately. That being said, there are...

senses and developments of things that ⁓ it's like when a tsunami happens, how do we know that the tsunami is triggered? triggers the tsunami? There are sensors that are miles and miles out into the ocean. When a huge wave surge comes by, it triggers the sensor and it sets off an alarm on the mainland saying, hey, this massive wave is coming. You might want to move. And so I try to in the way that I look at the world, not radically

not think that everything that happens someplace else is a tsunami. On the other hand, be very cognizant of the trends of the things that are likely to affect the time and the place in the world and my family and the way things are. So, I mean, a big one, we were talking about this, like I was just sitting down with my kids the other evening of like, look at all of these videos. None of this is real. This is all AI. This is all fake. Is it funny? Yes. But none of this is true. You're going to grow up in a time in which what you see cannot be believed.

Let's have that conversation. So that's not a sky is falling narrative. It's just like, this is the way that the tidal wave is moving or the tsunami wave is moving and let's do something to prepare for that. And I think you see that biblically. That's the consider the ant you sluggard, know, harvest all through the summer to prepare us for the hard time. So there's a sense in which we can be just mindful of the things and the patterns that are changing in the world around us while at the same time.

Not losing our ever-loving minds and spazzing out every single time that you know something comes across our spring screens in 40 font with ⁓ dread music behind it as a Harbinger of how i'm feeling or if yeah, so it's I'm not i'm not good at it But I do know that a differentiation has to be made there and that it seems like the biblical response has something to do with our Therefore since christ is seated

Cameron (26:29)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (26:36)

set your mind on things above. I think there's almost a point where I have to be overwhelmed with it, to the point that I recognize that I can't process it, and I won't be able to live well until I say, Lord, would you help me see this day what you would like me to do and focus on? And so, that's sentence that I ask myself each day. What is the actual priority of this day?

and-

Cameron (26:59)

That's a really

important sentence.

Nathan (27:01)

Yeah. here's where it gets tricky for me. know, both of us have been reading, I'm sure we'll talk a lot about in the future, Paul King's Norris, latest book against the machine, The Unmaking of Humanity. But there's a sentence in there that's really been stuck in my mind and I forget who said it, but he's quoting it. says, growth for the sake of growth is the philosophy of the cancer cell.

And for healthy growth, for you to live well, there's this sense of total growth and maximization of everything. ⁓ Until I remake the whole world in my own image is not a good goal. But healthy cells say, okay, we're going to replicate until we're a functioning kidney. And then we're going to do the task of being a kidney. But we grow to a certain size and then we do that task. And obviously deep imagery there, biblically speaking of us being different parts of the body. But you know what?

Your kidney does not know that it's a kidney. It's doing a very important task for your body, but it's not conscientious of itself as a kidney. What does mean for me to grow into the thing that God has created and designed for me to do? And to know when to stop and be like, okay, I am the size now that God wants me to work in this way. That's the first question that I'm praying through in my life right now of what shape am I supposed to take in this world?

Cameron (28:12)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (28:21)

And then the second question that's a little more unsettling for me, Cameron, is do I need to understand it in order to do it? Do I need to understand the big picture of my role in order? Like, does your kidney need to know it's a kidney in order to be a good kidney? It doesn't. Does Nathan need to understand the total picture of what God is creating in the areas of my life in which I touch reality?

Cameron (28:36)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (28:47)

I actually just need the next step. I don't really need the big picture. And there's a little bit of that, give us this day or daily bread ⁓ kind of aspect and element to it. And so I don't want to get so distracted in trying to analyze the meta-narrative sequences of the continuous growth and development of my life that I miss out on growing into the healthy size and shape of what it is that God is actually wanting me to do. And so it sounds quaint to answer the question in this way, but I can't legitimately

Cameron (28:53)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (29:17)

Cameron, come up with a different way of answering that question than to say that I have a deep sense that spiritual formation is the key to this problem. ⁓ And I'm not just saying that like in a Jesus loves me, that's the Sunday School answer, but I legitimately am sort of at the end of my rope of saying I don't see another way to be able to understand the push that I need to grow in the right directions.

or boundaries and the limitations and ⁓ differentiations and definitions that I need in order to function well without some external help, ⁓ certainly from the Lord, also from the community and the people around me. I think if there was a good political answer to this, or a good mathematical or a good economic answer to it, or if we could just throw more money at it and figure this out, I think we would have.

Cameron (30:12)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that's fair to say. Yeah. Yeah.

Nathan (30:13)

And we're living in a time in which we're throwing more money and more political action. Like this seems to be like

we're throwing wood on the fire trying to put it out. And I think I'm just wanting to sidestep this and say, wait a second, are we fundamentally asking the wrong questions here? ⁓ And can I learn to be okay in a different paradigm and to live a life that actually is more productive and has a better local and perhaps global impact by not trying

To have a global impact is my main priority.

Cameron (30:46)

I think those are fitting words of wisdom and very helpful, helpful to me. So.

Nathan (30:56)

Well,

let's be clear, I'm no good at it. This is just what I'm working on. Or what the Lord's working on me on, yeah.

Cameron (31:00)

⁓ yeah. No, no. You've said that. I think this,

we are, no, look, all of us, if we're Christian people, we are pilgrims and we're learning as well. This is one of the very practical reasons for why we need each other and why we do need that community and why we do need to go to church and worship the Lord in spirit and truth and read his word. But also I want you to notice that Nathan

basically answered my question by pointing to a very vibrant life of prayer. But also prayer asking very simple and basic and very important questions. And I think the not, what do I not need to understand, know, sometimes we need to follow without fully wrapping our heads around something and that's, that's a challenge. But it's true. mean, we serve after all an infinite God and there are so many different

aspects of our lives that remain deeply mysterious from the friends we're you know, we know to our spouses to our children Human beings are all our mysteries to us in the sense that we can't fully comprehend them Comprehensively only Christ can do that and yet we still maintain relationships We still have to move forward. So I guess I'm just saying we walk by faith not by sight to use a good apt and helpful phrase

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