Manosphere Exposed: Modern Masculinity and the Crisis Facing Young Men
Nathan (00:01)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm Nathan Rittenhouse.
Cameron (00:04)
and I'm your cohost, Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:06)
Usually if you've been a longtime listener to thinking out loud you will recognize that there are things that Cameron does for the rest of us like watching certain things typically in the horror category and providing ⁓ Theological insight onto that so the rest of us don't have to go through that Cameron has once again sacrificed his attention span for your benefit But this time it was not in the horror category or maybe it is I'm not sure Cameron What intellectual service has you done us this time?
Cameron (00:35)
Well, I mean, it's certainly in the horror category for me, guess, personally, but that's more of a subjective response. watched, so this new documentary came out on Netflix called Inside the Manosphere. And I've heard murmurings, as I'm sure you have Nathan, about the Manosphere, but the phrase doesn't really mean much to me. But this was, so this is a famous documentarian, documentarian, say that five times fast.
and who finally manages to get in touch with a number of these big influencers. So I'm not sure I'm going to do, I don't think I'll describe this very well because I'm just not an insider, the man, I don't, so I think Andrew Tate would be the most infamous, right? But he's really the only name I actually, actually know. He is a bit of a household name. He's also, you know, I don't know, I haven't followed the whole legal debacle, but he and.
Nathan (01:11)
Give us some names just in case we might know.
Yeah, okay.
Cameron (01:29)
And some of his partners are actually under investigation for human trafficking, I believe. pretty notorious stuff. this is a group of male influencers who they have a set of kind of practices. They will routinely talk in very uncompromising terms. They'll say, you know, they'll say use a lot of language that is frankly misogynistic. They will also parade their
Nathan (01:32)
But that's part of the brand at this point.
Cameron (01:58)
You know, apparent wealth, know, show, you know, show off lots of fancy cars, surround them, surround themselves with, yeah, surround themselves also with, yeah, women, often only fans. So, I mean, if it sounds like I'm describing a rap music video from the late nineties and early two thousands, you're not far off. But here's the thing. So I'm sounding dismissive already. And I want to, I want to guard against that because these, these men have incredible.
Nathan (02:03)
cars and the women and the houses and the pools and the jets and the
Cameron (02:28)
influence, especially for, they have a young male audience, as you might imagine, and a sizable young male audience. All of them have millions of followers, but they have an interesting message, which is, it's not really, it's a message of basically, you know, justify your existence. And, you know, nobody will, essentially it goes a little bit like this, Nathan. Nobody owes you anything. You, it is up to you.
to make yourself and to show and justify your worth and build something worthwhile. And so they kind of give you this vision of being a, it's kind of the myth of the self-made man, but also it seems what they try to give you is what they, know, sort of what's alleged is that they can give you the tools so that you can make yourself invulnerable.
You are no longer going to be rejected by anybody because you are this powerful person. You build this kind of immunity. That's kind of the vision that's being, at least to the best of my lights, that's what I'm saying. That's kind of what makes them very compelling to certain people.
Nathan (03:49)
And a huge,
would you say it's fair to say, the whole, ⁓ I mean, the physical athleticism looks maxing isn't quite it, but like the physical prowess of being a man is also an important part of this.
Cameron (03:55)
yes, that's a huge piece. Right.
The physical prowess of yes, being, think a word that's used a lot is, you know, being a hunter or, know, styling yourself as a sort of a predator in, not in the sense of being somebody who commits assaults, but
Nathan (04:17)
Well, but we're not talking about Hunter like,
own an axe and a flannel shirt. Not that, but more of a predatory, use your power, lean into things.
Cameron (04:22)
Right. No.
Yeah, I'm going to go. Yeah,
I'll go out there and I will make things happen and I'll get what I want. And so I want, I want a big career. I want to build an empire. Yeah. You, you, go out and you, you do that. So now the, documentary, mean, we can, I don't think we really need to get into these aspects. It's not, this is, there's another, there is another side of this where the whole, the whole kind of.
ways in which they earn their money, the trading or whatever it is, it's cryptocurrency. A lot of it is incredibly shady and a lot of it is frankly really bad business advice. There is that side as well, but I'd rather look at the kind of reigning philosophy behind what's going on here and the cultural appeal. Yeah.
Nathan (05:13)
Can I say one thing before you get there? I think we need to go there
a couple things real quick. One is you had mentioned that some of the ⁓ language is misogynistic. ⁓ But this, like the Tate brothers and others, that's not a slur for them. They'd be like, yeah, it is. There's an embrace of saying, I think a lot of the ways in which women would be spoken of is like, to some degree, I think this is a backlash to kind of the ⁓
Cameron (05:32)
Yeah, so let's say a few words about that.
Nathan (05:43)
2020 toxic masculinity and and and so this is just like okay you want to see masculinity watch this ⁓ So there there is a rebound off of that movement we need to mention
Cameron (05:46)
Sure, ⁓ yes.
Absolutely.
Yeah,
so this stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. there is a reaction that's taking place. I mean, let's face it, there is a lot of male hatred out there as well. We've come from a very interesting cultural moment where what you've called Nathan peak individualism has come to a head and brought about a number of different tensions. And so you had all of these different waves of feminism that, you
culminated in a lot of new sensibilities or in women. And a lot of that frankly did result in some backlash against men, that's real. But then there are reactions on both sides. just a few words on the misogyny piece. One of the things that the documentary does well is it looks at some of those tensions there. So one of the gentlemen who, so the
Nathan (06:37)
⁓ OK.
Cameron (06:55)
The interviewer asks him, right, so you have a wife. Yes. Are you faithful to your wife? And he kind of, she's faithful. Are you faithful to your wife? See, you're going to make me look bad right now. She's faithful. And so what he begins to tease out is that this man has
interests and sleeps with other women on a routine basis. Or at least that's what he says. actually frankly believe him. But his wife is monogamous. But that double standard, there's a double standard there, doesn't apply to him. And then there are a few times where the spouse is present in the conversation and it gets really awkward because he'll ask the question again with her present and he'll ask her.
With another one of these influencers, this guy talks about possibly one day, you know, maybe I want, you know, I would like multiple wives. And he turns to his, you know, current only spouse and says, are you comfortable with that? he talks a big game and he just sort of, and then he clearly gets very uncomfortable because, so in other words, he's kind of, he does a good job of carefully sort of teasing out a persona, but behind the scenes,
Nathan (08:18)
Can I say what I'm actually
thinking here? Can I say what I'm actually thinking? When I look at Andrew Tate, think man child meets Islam. It's the perfect fit. so the like, maybe I, maybe I put all my cards on the table too soon there and that's where we'll go. But there's none of this that impresses me. the, or is even like the fact that they're called influencers anyhow, but there's, there's, there's, there's a,
Cameron (08:20)
Yeah, these people are different. Anyway, yeah, go ahead.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, hold on. Hold on. Hold on.
Nathan (08:50)
Well, okay, go ahead. I want
to bring Jordan Peterson in here because I think he's a weird not doesn't fit this but gets lumped in this
Cameron (08:59)
Okay, so once again, let me just say what you and I, we both have something that many men don't have.
We have not only do we have good dads, we have good families. And I remember when I first met you, Nathan, one of the things that I found very moving when you gave your testimony was, I think you said something like, stand on 400 years of stability in my faith. That was really moving to hear. That is something that is completely absent from so many people who admire these influencers. they, and a lot of them are interviewed.
Nathan (09:29)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (09:40)
And actually I know some young men who find people like this very appealing. And it's not just that they're lacking father figures. They are though. They are. They don't have a rich and vibrant community in their lives and they feel often empty and directionless. And when you feel empty and directionless, you know what people used to do? They used to go and join the military.
And then, you you would get, you would get whipped into shape by a drill sergeant and then you would have some structure imposed on you. And we have friends in the military, Nathan, who have, who have all said something consistent. They've said, you know, it used to be you get, you get these, these boys and you, you break them and remake them. But now they're broken. They're arriving so broken. So we can't, they're fragile. You can't break them in the same way anymore. That, that's dangerous. So we have to sort of.
We have to tread more carefully. So that kind of person, that kind of young man who is already broken, when you have somebody who appears very, very confident, yes, speaks, know, isn't, isn't censored or cowed by the culture around and says, you know, and a lot of us are in a position now to appreciate, you know, in our cultural moment, the catharsis, the dark catharsis that we experienced when somebody just shoots their mouth off and just.
Says, mean, for goodness sake, say that we have a president who's using the F word and talking about, you know, ending a civilization. So, I mean, that's, but these guys, these guys appear, what they hold out is a, is a kind of promise of invulnerability. You won't feel weak and you won't feel rejected anymore. And you will have power and I'm going to tell you how to do it. And you, and here's a formula.
Nathan (11:15)
Easter. Yeah.
Cameron (11:36)
And look at me, am the example. Look at my six pack. Look at my poolside view here. Look at my car. Look at this jet. Look at these women.
Nathan (11:48)
So it's
the new drill instructor.
Cameron (11:51)
It's a fancy new kind of drill. It's a drill in structure with a, you know, a six plaque, a six pack, you know, square jawline and, and only fans, women surrounding them, you know, and, and the illusion and the distance imposed by the internet, you know, where these people can give you a carefully curated package that looks so real for so many. Well, it looks real if you're in your twenties, if you're, if you're our age, you're already probably thinking. ⁓
Nathan (12:05)
Right, yeah.
There's a couple other things in passing here one is we talked about the role of fathers in this but I would also say the access to relationships with mature confident women Would also be a phenomenal stopgap in some of these ridiculous shenanigans ⁓ The other part of this is is that the drill sergeant, you know, your Marines drill sergeant had a much higher ⁓
Cameron (12:30)
sure.
Nathan (12:44)
What what they say like conformity rate or like could could actually bring about the results I think you look at millions and millions of young men looking at these guys and a very low percentage of the millions and millions of people are following them are going to have lives that turn out to look anything like What's being shown to them through the screen? So it's a very even even if it was a good goal the program of achieving it has destructive results just because yeah
Anyway, ⁓ results may vary.
Cameron (13:16)
Well, it'll
be fascinating to see what the backlash is and there will be backlash in 10 years. People who followed the program and didn't and came up short. also, I mean, you just look at the way many of these people turn out. A lot of them end up having criminal records. A lot of them...
Nathan (13:39)
yeah,
mean, who doesn't want a Romanian sex trafficking charge on their...
Cameron (13:44)
Yeah. So I think the other thing that's interesting here, Nathan, is once again, we're in the territory of some people might zoom out and say, yeah, because I mean, there's a crisis of masculinity happening here. And this is where I just think that you and I are in an odd position because once again, I'm not sure even at this rate or at this stage,
that I still don't think I understand precisely what people mean when they say that.
Nathan (14:23)
What's the actual hunger, I guess, is the question. And when I look at the actual hungers, they all are things that the church historically would refer to as vices. So if you want to take the seven deadly sins and stretch a skin over them, I think a lot of this is just that. Is it greed? Is it pride? Is it the desire for ⁓ easy money?
Is that the desire for is lust part of this? I mean is it you just go through the What was it somebody once said you can remember the seven deadly sins through slap egg So sloth lust anger pride envy greed and gluttony ⁓ Slap egg. There you go. That's about the most vulgar way. You can talk about a theological concept, but it is funny ⁓
So when I look at those and say what would happen if we through the ability of digital technology to amplify each of these random to their logical conclusions. This is what I think that manifestation would look like. So look below the cars and the women and the Bitcoin. And you have the sub components there that are things that so I think Cameron, if you've grown up in healthy relationships and healthy community.
particularly in religious communities, have helped form and inoculate or grant you or Yeah, I think inoculation is a good idea the ability to see these are things that will flare up naturally within your human nature and your soul that will destroy you if you run them to their logical conclusions and So when you have a 27 year old out there saying look at all of this ⁓ Yeah for now ⁓
But these things fly apart when you continue to push them to their logical extremes. So you're seeing a short-term ⁓ glamorized view of what happens when you run vice to its logical conclusions. Well, but when you amplify vice but haven't lived it out to its logical conclusions yet. So I think you and I would just naturally see a lot of this. And like if I came to all of you who listening to this and said,
Hey guys, did you know you don't have to put motor oil in your car? And you're like, I'm pretty sure you need motor oil in your car, Nathan. like, no, I drained all the oil out of my car and drove it a hundred miles an hour for 30 seconds down, down my street. And it was totally fine. Therefore I have definitively proven you don't need any kind of engine lubricant in your automobile. would be like, man, that's not how reality actually works. So fascinating and I can be all hyped about it. And I could pump that out to millions of people.
Cameron (17:05)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (17:10)
but it's just not true.
Cameron (17:13)
Yeah.
Well, and I wonder also, you know, there's a, there's another aspect to this that, so I want to go into some of the, a little bit of, I want to play devil's advocate for a second. Yeah. So, well, first of all, there is, mean, one footnote here. Well, this isn't even a footnote. This is important. I don't feel very discriminated against as a man most of the time in my day-to-day life. But if I spent a lot of time.
Nathan (17:25)
I think we need to do it.
Cameron (17:42)
online, I would more so.
Nathan (17:45)
Yeah,
as a scrawny 5'11 dude, I still don't feel like a victim.
Cameron (17:50)
Well, I mean, there's just, so there is that very online aspect to some of this. So if you get sucked into the rage bait machine of the online world, and let's face it, a lot of these guys, this is how they get their traffic. They're going to use rage baiting tactics and they're going to play on negative emotions. I mean, just do all the stuff that makes that dark slot machine work. Then that can pull you into this. But let's zoom out for a second. Let me play Devil's Advocate.
So there has been in recent years, there has been, we've gone in a long slide in certain sectors in more progressive circles. We've been, and the slide's not the word, we've been moving away from a traditional view of the family. In fact, in some sectors, the traditional view of the family has been actively disparaged and it's been seen as something, yeah, that's something that is.
Nathan (18:44)
Mm-hmm. ⁓ sure. And all
cultural revolutions start at critiques of the family as abuse of power structures, Marx, Ingalls, the whole, mean, all the way through. It's there.
Cameron (18:54)
Yes.
So I think we need to recognize what we could call that just the critical theory turn. Now I do think as a side note, it looks to me, at least Nathan, like we've got a little bit of a reprieve from the kind of woke sort of cultural sensation that we had. are, just for the simple reason that people are tired of it now. I'm noticing, because I'm noticing certain words.
back in currency that were very politically incorrect that people are now happily using again and that
Nathan (19:26)
Well, so the New
York Times yesterday had a has woke gone too far sit down interview with a let's see, non non cisgender. Then there was a non binary. And then there's a person like just sitting down and talking about the way that terms have been used. And when you have that group at the New York Times saying that woke ism has been damaging because it's gone too far and made words silly and meaningless. Yeah. I would say that's a moment of a cultural shift.
Cameron (19:50)
Yeah, it's a ⁓
death knell maybe there. Well, so there is that, but there was, but there has been, so the critical theory turn has taken aim at the family unit and it has represented it as a repressive structure. And feminist studies in particular have focused on the patriarchy and all of the depredations there. Now, side note, let's just be honest, men have mistreated women in the past.
So to pretend like that dark historical legacy isn't there is not the answer.
Nathan (20:25)
But also,
that is not new and is not an American invention from the 1950s.
Cameron (20:31)
No, it's not. And actually, if you want to take a more, I think, just historical view of that, you will see just the dark picture of basic human nature where anybody who holds the keys to power or who is physically stronger or has any kind of power or strength generally doesn't handle it well. And that's not to be dismissive. That's just saying that's human nature.
Nathan (20:53)
Well, but that's why you and I have... this
is why you and I have objections here, because none of this is new, Cameron.
Cameron (20:58)
No, but see, if you're in very online spaces, have to mark, no, no, and you have to market it as new. Some people do and cynically still repackage this as some new, you know, war on masculinity. Let's face it. A crisis of masculinity sells a lot of books, gets a lot of people to masculinity camps. And it's the engine that fuels a lot of podcasts. It's, I mean, it's, there's an industry there and Americans, like to, you know, we see
Nathan (21:01)
You don't read history.
Cameron (21:28)
a need or we create a need. I always remember Nathan, there was a show and it wasn't, I think I mentioned this before, but it never got that big, but it was really good. It was called Halt and Catch Fire, kind of about the the beginnings of the personal computer. But there's a scene where one guy who's an amazing salesman goes in and he's just, one of his guys accidentally just said, yeah, this thing cleans up. I've created this little program. It cleans up viruses. And the guy doesn't realize what he's made.
But the salesman does it, wait, we can sell this. What do you mean? No, it's just a little tool to help us out if the thing's not working. So he goes into a big corporation and the guy doesn't want to buy it. Oh, we don't need that. And so he brazenly inserts a floppy disk into the thing and says, I've just infected all your computers. And if you want me to fix them, can buy the solution from me.
So, I mean, it's a brilliant scene. I've misrepresented a little bit because it's been several years since I've seen it, but basically, here, let's create a problem and now I'm going to sell you a solution to the problem that I've created. And you see that here. So that is very much present. But that said, Nathan, I said I was going to play devil's advocate. I'm not doing a good job. It's true to say, because I've spoken to many, a lot of men do feel
Nathan (22:35)
There you go.
Cameron (22:51)
discriminated against. do feel that they are, you know, constant, especially if, you that, you know, any kind of traditionally or culturally conventionally masculine impulse is now mocked and ridiculed. And I mean, see, again, if I just back out, Nathan here, if somebody mocks some of those, I don't care. But again, if you, if you're
If you're in an online world where you are being rage baited and that's, mean, this stuff does work. That's why people do it. You can be, you can get worked up over this. And so you can, you can feel as though, look, I'm being invaded against constantly, you know, all of these, all of these. So I, I want to respond to this and in the strongest possible terms. And also there's a little bit of, okay, you want, you want a toxic mail? I will give you.
Nathan (23:37)
Yeah.
Cameron (23:45)
the toxic male. Watch toxic masculinity. Let me show you multiple women. I'll do all of the things you're saying are so bad. There's a little bit of a reactionary component.
Nathan (23:55)
Yeah, to prove a point.
So I get that. And to loop back around, think you see elements of this early on in the success of Jordan Peterson's like 12 rules for life. I mean, there are a lot of young men who would say that totally changed their lives as just a way of saying, no, get up, get out of bed, make your bed, start creating order in the world around you, develop healthy habits, healthy respect, work on your personal virtue and start building things in the world. That's a...
Cameron (24:08)
yeah, Jordan.
Nathan (24:24)
That's a good message. I think you can pull that right out of scripture oftentimes to have a very clear cut formula that God made us in his image in order to do his good work. And there you go. So none of that is wrong. I think one of the unique challenges is, that in a digital world, it's hard to know what to do with your body and the biology of young men. We'll have to go into details of that is, is a body that is made for action.
And to build and to do and to create and to ⁓ it's very hard to know what to do with that energy. If you're living on the 14th floor in a small apartment, spending 14 hours a day online. And so I think there is, there is a sense in which the biological and the digital come into tension here and more digital isn't the solution to it. And I've been, and I've been thinking about this just from
Cameron (25:22)
That's well said.
Nathan (25:25)
A how do just actually this week and talking to your your dad earlier this week, too He used an interesting phrase. He said that which becomes digitized becomes anathesized ⁓ anesthetized In that there's like a a glazing over dumbing down toning down pulling the energy out of everything that the that the digital attention and energy goes to And so I was thinking that really the antidote to trying to create boundaries for ourselves in a digital sense is to think more about the biological
And that could be, hey, I'm going to grow some basil in a cup on my bedroom window. You know, just like watching biological things that that live and die and are fragile and have ⁓ boundaries and insects and pests can eat them. And there's a, ⁓ a finitude to it that that type of thing is healthy. And so I do want to see young men re-embrace a lot of the categories of thinking about, like, it's a question you should be asking yourself.
Cameron (26:03)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (26:24)
How is my testosterone given to me as a gift to my wife, girlfriend, sister, the people around me? How is the way that my body has been made intended, not for me to say, what can I get out of everybody else around me, but what can I give based off of the physical body that I have? And so the physical body, the hormones that you have are a gift to you from God. It's a question of what do we do with those?
don't know how you would express those digitally. And then scripture gives us some very clear guidelines on how you might do that biologically. But then in doing so, the manosphere is kind of like bragging about your moped at a Harley convention. Like it's just not that impressive. You're not really building, creating, flourishing, developing families or rich and deep communities.
the fruit of the Spirit manifest in the lives of the people around you because of the ways in which you've been actualizing the gifts that God has given you. ⁓ That's not going to attract 20 million followers, but that's the call. So there's the tension there.
Cameron (27:33)
Yeah, I mean,
think one of the needs that is being addressed here is really a form of despair that a lot of men have fallen prey to in recent years. And this is real. I mean, it manifests itself as complacency or just passivity. I mean, I remember when I was in college, a phenomenon of a lot of, and I went to a Bible college, so there was intense pressure to get married young. That's another discussion.
A lot of the people who were married, a lot of the women were having a huge problem because their husbands were just sitting around playing video games all day and weren't contributing. That's a big widespread problem. So the kernel of truth in these influencers, I mean, is take responsibility. A lot of what Jordan Peterson is doing, particularly in that book, is saying take responsibility.
Nathan (28:13)
yeah.
Cameron (28:31)
A lot of ⁓ the fitness influencers take that same message and they just inject, if they're speaking to men, they usually inject a lot of expletives, lace it with that to kind of make it more tough. But basically, yeah, they just say, grow up, take responsibility for your life. You are, one I hear a lot, the place that you're at right now, whether it's your mom's basement or online scrolling on your phone looking at oodles.
Nathan (28:43)
Goggins.
Cameron (28:59)
tons and tons of porn or something like that. The place that you're at in your life, you're the reason you got there, but you also can get yourself out of it. And here's how you dig yourself out of this hole. ⁓ it's absolutely self-help. The lie there, unfortunately with the manosphere is that you can make yourself invulnerable and that
Nathan (29:11)
Itself help just in a...
Cameron (29:27)
If you take on these, you know, these, kind of very aggressive tactics and all of that and crush people, you know, I mean, if, if, if you do this, that that, is going to then earn you the respect that you so desire and get you the love and the acceptance that you so, so desire there. That's the, that's the painful part. But as far as there is a real need and it's true to say that many men do feel a sense, they feel, you know, you know what?
Nathan (29:45)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (29:57)
There's a repeated message in a lot of suicide notes from men right now. I don't know if you've seen this. This has been isolated and people have drawn attention to it. But basically it's a variation of, I feel useless. The useless phrase, ⁓ the phrase crops up over again in suicide notes of men. And you said, you made some telling remarks earlier about the masculine drive with all that energy, the generative drive.
Nathan (30:03)
Hmm.
Yeah, what do I do with my body?
Cameron (30:28)
to build, create, yeah, to make life. Yeah, all of that, and that is real. Now, not everybody, not everybody believes that. Some people will try to explain away what you just said and say, that's just, those are just cultural conventions. They're not real. But you and I would say, no, those are intrinsically real. There is such a thing as real masculinity made by, we would,
Nathan (30:46)
Yeah, I did this.
Cameron (30:53)
We would say this as Christians, there are essential differences between men and women. Are you saying women can't build it? No. Are you saying women, no, but we do, but are you saying women can't run companies? No. But everything Nathan said about that generative drive and that fierce energy in men is real and it is intrinsic to men. there are, and we would both, Nathan and I would say, yes, there are real differences between men and women.
Nathan (31:01)
I mean, it's just weird to live in a time in which we need to say that Cameron.
Cameron (31:23)
And the differences matter.
Nathan (31:25)
and are good
and to be celebrated and are a gift to humanity. So, it's...
Cameron (31:28)
Right. And yeah, men and women are
of equal value, but they are, they are not the same. And I think some, even the manosphere, I think that's another kernel of truth that it does grasp. Its response to the cultural lies there is completely wrong and lopsided, but it's, but it's trying, I think in some ways to deal with that as well. But when you have men who are meant to be
using that energy in a constructive way, feeling increasingly useless, being told, hey, you're not needed anymore. We don't need men anymore. Let's face it, Nathan, that is a repeated message from many, many women, especially in powerful celebrities and influential writers. Yeah, we don't need you. We don't need you. We're good.
Nathan (32:13)
Okay, but.
So the work here out of this is for the church to model a healthy alternative. And the healthy alternative is not just take the manosphere and stick some scripture verses on the t-shirts while you're working out. But let me say something. I was talking to somebody who I deeply respect in life. I think is a wonderful example of a man. And he said, know, ⁓ if I look at what's said in the world, he's like, I'm not much of a man.
Cameron (32:32)
Please don't do that. Yeah.
Nathan (32:48)
I've been married to the same woman my entire life. I don't own a truck. I don't own a gun. I don't hit anybody. I, you know, you just go down through the, the, through the list of like the people that our country like hold our lives together, do not look like any of these influencers and are simple, faithful, mature, build healthy community and culture and businesses around them and, our, um, health have healthy expressions of their emotions and
Cameron (32:57)
Yeah, yeah.
Nathan (33:18)
Like I see a world that is full of that and I see none of it online.
Cameron (33:27)
Yeah, it's, well, it's, it's not very marketable, but it's what makes it, what it's, what actually makes the, the, you know, healthy communities run and flourish. So yeah, I mean, we haven't, I don't, I'm not sure we've contributed too much.
Nathan (33:38)
Flourish. Yeah. ⁓
No, here's
what we've contributed. I'm going to tell you what Cameron contributed. I think for those of you who are young Christian men, you need to start thinking about who do I want my actual role models to be? And this is this is helpful thing for all of us at all phases to say, ⁓ who are the people around me that I could say, hey, you know what, 10 years from now? It would be a blessing to the world if my life looked like and I'm not saying idolize people. Paul said, follow me as I follow Christ, but start identifying some people are saying, you know what, actually that
Is is I think a biblical vision of wholesomeness there? ⁓ Single person, married person, whatever, and and find a way to spend time with him and ask questions and be be adjacent. In physical proximity with with people that you look up to and respect, I think the other thing we can do is we can use our words of encouragement very well. So if there are particularly in light of this episode, young men around you find ways to encourage them, find ways to get them involved in things.
Cameron (34:15)
Hmm.
Nathan (34:45)
Ask them to help you do things. Don't pay them. Just say, I need some help moving something heavy. Would you be willing to come over and help me figure this out? There's a lot of work that we can do in those categories. And then I think particularly as a church, if you're in leadership, you're leading a small group Bible study, don't sweep this whole phenomenon under the rug and be like, well, know, young men are kind of fidgety these days. Yeah, because they're looking for ways to use their God given minds and bodies. ⁓
Cameron (34:47)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (35:15)
And so make work for those people or find ways to include them and don't act like, they'll just be okay. They'll figure it out. You might have to model and create some opportunities for some healthy expressions of what ⁓ it means to be a man and then to use that body that God has given you in a healthy way.
Cameron (35:37)
very well said. You've been listening to Thinking Out Loud, a podcast where we think out loud about current events and Christian hope.
Nathan (35:47)
If you appreciate the type of work that we do or this content, you can like it, you can subscribe to it, and you can certainly share it with other people that you think might find it helpful. And if you want to continue to support financially the work that we're doing, you can do so by visiting us at www.toltogether.com.