Is Weed Actually Good for You? Rethinking Medicinal Claims and Vices
Nathan (00:01.524)
Hello and welcome to Thank You Not Loud. I'm your co-host Nathan Rittenhouse.
Cameron (00:04.694)
and I'm your co-host, Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:06.974)
We're going to talk about marijuana and you're like, Oh, come on, mom, we don't need this, but just hear us out for it. Yeah. It's just for just split split second. Um, Cameron, you know, we, we came of age at an interesting time in this conversation, but, um, recently I've just been struck by a number of articles. Um, several weeks ago, the New York times ran a series, um, one of
Cameron (00:11.99)
It's the talk, okay? Just sit down, son. Just kidding. Yeah.
Nathan (00:34.894)
complaining just pointing out like okay America has a marijuana use issue one of those was looking at kind of the social fabric of what it's like to try to walk through a city these days and yeah you're always gonna have your people are kind of complaining about that but you know the New York Times isn't really like the bastion of conservative thought so that's that's notable that there was a lot of commentary on conversation there then the next week I think it was they ran an article that was I mean and these are like medical journals saying that there isn't actually
scientifically measurable benefit to acute pain relief from medical marijuana that there just really isn't any there there as far as possible studies and and yes I know immediately everybody has their own anecdotal thing and they're like yep we get that but we're just saying if we're looking at the numbers and our mind modern scientific understanding there's a lot to be desired as thinking about this in a medicinal sense
Cameron (01:29.358)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (01:31.262)
Then I think it was this week NPR. So I'm going out of my way to not I'm not talking about religious fundamentalism. I'm not talking about Your grandmother's vision on I'm talking about modern secular people trying to follow the science I think this is maybe lancet saying that there really isn't good evidence for mental health and as a Medicinal marijuana as a response to mental health and in fact, maybe and
And in each of these are very carefully worded and they're saying here are some very niche and subset and here are some sub components of this has been studied in where some types of results have been shown to be as effective as filling the other alternatives. But by and large, there's a slow consensus emerging that maybe we have oversold ourselves on the actual practical, sociological, cultural and physical health benefits of marijuana.
Cameron (02:04.536)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (02:31.39)
Now, I think there's a whole crew of people who are listening like, yeah, we knew this all along though. But anyway, it might be too soon to say that this is a movement, but I'm just pointing out that where we currently sit, there are major journalistic publications that are commenting on major medical journals and publications saying the jury is not as conclusive as all the anecdotes that you might hear otherwise from your friends and family.
What do we do with that?
Cameron (03:00.918)
I'm curious. Well, let me play devil's advocate and just have you respond for a second. what about people who would say this is a healthy alternative to more serious drugs like alcohol. And also because now we can do microdosing, that allows us to keep this, we have a more controlled kind of relationship with this substance now, that kind of thing. We can use it recreationally.
Nathan (03:24.562)
yeah.
So these articles are specifically talking about the medicinal use of it. there aren't, I mean, there hasn't been a huge thing of like, you know what, three beers a night, I drink three beers a night for my health. It's the using this, so they're not commenting on other reasons that you might use this. They're just saying that as a medicinal tool, which was the foundation of a lot of the legalization and decriminalization language, and it's marijuana now, pick your whatever other chemical.
Cameron (03:48.77)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (03:56.883)
Past present future and slot in there. They're just saying if we're actually following the science on the medicinal value here
There's no there there yet.
Cameron (04:08.782)
One more quick question then, just a brief response. So for a long time, well, not for a long time, but recently, I think it's conceivable that we're going to look at alcohol one day the way we look at cigarettes. That seems to be where we are going right now. Alcohol sales are...
Nathan (04:19.93)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, I mean, does the World Health Organization say like zero drinks are safe? I mean, that's a massive shift.
Cameron (04:26.606)
They do. They do. And that's massive. Absolutely. So no biological health benefits to alcohol. Now that said, there is a counter movement. There always is. And some of them are healthcare professionals. I hate the phrase healthcare professional. I.e. doctors. Some doctors are saying, is there a biological, will this help you biologically? No. But.
Nathan (04:42.418)
You
Cameron (04:54.838)
If you take away alcohol from your life and that means that effectively you subtract a whole slew of social interactions, get togethers with boys or whatever, then that's bad and that's not healthy for you. So if you subject it to a more holistic analysis, alcohol actually may for some have some social health benefits. So some people ought to go out there and have a few drinks with their friends.
Now, similarly, could somebody, what would you say to somebody, Nathan, if, and I'm just asking you, mean, if they said, well, there's a lot of psychic pain out there. So there is physical pain, but there's also psychic pain. And some of these substances, know, gummies or whatever they are can help, they help me regulate my mood and they help me, you know, relax, or they help me get a little bit more creative. They, they just, it's a great way for me to sort of just
Nathan (05:44.894)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (05:52.352)
enter into a recreational space, blow off steam. So that's overall, that's kind of good for me, right? I'm just curious how you would respond to that.
Nathan (06:00.304)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, well instead of back up these articles are not commenting on that like the self medication saying they're saying more on the the formal Medicinal use side of that. I think so. Let's let's use the thought experiment by swapping out with caffeine Lots of people would say hey, actually Michael Poland wrote an entire book on the power of the drug that is caffeine Yeah, I'm just saying let's take something else and use it in the same way so I know a bunch of people who are like
Cameron (06:20.376)
You're meddling now. I like caffeine. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.
Nathan (06:30.234)
Actually, I don't think it's spiritually healthy for me to be addicted to caffeine. Do I use it? But are there times in which I have to be conscientious about what I'm doing? That I'm saying that I'm that the the physical outworking and manifestation of my day, my personality, my mood and my interactions with other people are dependent on a chemical.
Cameron (06:47.299)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (06:52.186)
I mean, it's just worth putting out there as a stick in whatever other substance you want. I was just picking that one because it's widely accepted as a I think so I'm using that to say I think there's a reservation that we ought to have about a whole host of things that the conversation gets broader, not narrower. And this is a type of a thing. That being said, probably the the long term physiological, psychological, sociological
nature of caffeine isn't one of those that you know, there's a whole lot of publications out there of like, hey, and this leads to long-term psychosis from overuse in the same way that some of these other. So I think the pushback is, we trying to throw a medical blanket over something that we just want to do? And if it's just something like, hey, I just need this thing, like, let's just call it that.
Let's not act like I'm doing this for my health. That might, I think that's the starting point of the conversation.
Cameron (07:58.637)
Yeah. So you would, you think it would be better, more refreshing start to just say, I want to get high instead of,
Nathan (08:03.826)
Well, we've talked about this. You know people like that. Yeah, I think the person who just says, you know what, I had a tough day and I'm so done with this and I don't want to think about reality. I can appreciate that more than the person who's like, well, this is really important for my... and my doctor told me, you know, and I have a prescription for. I'm like, I've known a lot of people who have had prescriptions for a lot of placebos in life.
Cameron (08:06.86)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Cameron (08:29.07)
Well, you were right to, I'm going to go back to what you were saying earlier, because it's disturbing. You were right to broaden the conversation. You brought in caffeine. I also think of, you know, people who take a little something to relax on an airplane, know, pop an ambient here or something. I mean, we have, but also think about the role that food plays in many people's lives. This is an easy place to point. think, Nathan, I said to you earlier that America is one of the harder working nations in the world.
Nathan (08:49.712)
absolutely.
Cameron (08:59.308)
And I say that as an international person. grew up in Europe. know, Americans are always making fun of Europeans for our massive vacations. And you go to plenty of places in Europe and it's true, they do. They work to live, they don't live to work. But America, one of the glories of this nation is, I've said this before, the resourcefulness, the innovation, the industriousness of Americans. But Americans work so incredibly hard.
but they also play so incredibly hard, which is why, let's just use the word entertainment to cover a constellation of different recreational practices. Entertainment here is such a behemoth. so you could, this is a nation where you could have a whole class of, now, class is an important actually component of this discussion. We should bring that in in a second. But there are whole classes of people who would say, yeah,
I work really, really hard. I work hard to make the money that I do. I've worked my way up to where I'm at. I do a lot. I take care of my family. And so now I have earned the right to take a little vacation from reality. And that vacation might involve some, America usually it's going to be some form of indulgence. Maybe you go on an all-inclusive vacation or maybe you have a really decadent meal or maybe you get high or maybe you get drunk with your friends.
Also, there's that fascinating dimension as well, Nathan, of socially acceptable drugs. Because there are some that are still considered subversive, but it's a very cultural distinction as you ... I remember a line from Trainspotting where it's about heroin addicts and one of them goes, and I've got one Valium which I've procured for my mother, who is in her own more socially acceptable way, also a drug addict. Really kind of biting, acidic line.
Nathan (10:34.598)
yeah. So.
Nathan (10:51.688)
Well, so I was talking to a guy who is who is recovering opioid addiction went through the whole thing I think Lord did wonderful things great help and he's and he's like it's wild to me to watch what I went through and Then go to a church cover dish dinner Where 15 % of the people there are diabetics and then look at the dessert table? He's like there's he's like there's not a like anybody who is trying to help somebody through a recovery program would not do this
Cameron (10:55.875)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (11:12.332)
Yes, exactly.
Nathan (11:20.326)
if they solve the physical consequences of... And so, okay, do I eat dessert? Yes, I do. Do I drink caffeine? Yes, I do. Like, don't hear, like, this is not a us preaching at you, but we're gonna push a little bit, because we need to think about these things.
Cameron (11:20.6)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (11:34.467)
Yeah. And try to think about it in a more holistic light, because I think particularly, let's pick on our own people for a second. Within, know, theologically conservative Christian circles and culturally conservative Christian circles, certain drugs have a big stigma. They do. But I mean, do you remember Nathan for a while? I don't remember when this came to light, but have you ever heard of, I think it's been called variously Baptist wine?
Baptist beer, but do know what that is? It's Nyquil. It's Nyquil. It's Nyquil. you have this, so the point there, certain people were, yeah, I would never, you know, never have beer in my fridge. I'd never have alcohol in my house, but if I want to, you know, relax and get some sleep, you know, I'll drink some Nyquil. So I'm technically, you see, that's just basic legalism is all that is.
Nathan (12:07.878)
I don't Welch's grape juice. yeah. Okay.
Cameron (12:31.479)
But Nyquil is socially acceptable because this goes in your medicine cabinet. It's not a beer that goes in your fridge. So trying to expand the conversation for that very reason, there are certain drugs that are stigmatized. are certain stimulants that are stigmatized. Caffeine isn't. That's true. In fact, I think caffeine has a certain prestige around it sometimes. There's a level of intellectual sophistication that can come along with drinking.
coffee or tea or whatever it is. I mean, yeah, can you overuse caffeine? Of course you can. Can you use it as a stimulant? It is a stimulant. Yes, of course you can.
Nathan (13:08.936)
Well, so I don't use it much, but then when I need it, it really works. Late night drive home from the airport, ooh buddy.
Cameron (13:14.403)
Well, I do. use it. I use it much. You've been around me, Nathan. mean, I do. So I, yeah. Gills, I drink a lot of, I do drink a lot of coffee. Have, have since I was 17 years old. So yeah, again, hear us also. We're not, Hey, we're sages on a mountain, on mountaintops talking to you. Yeah.
Nathan (13:19.646)
Yeah.
Nathan (13:29.554)
Well, no, no, but let's stick with the caffeine because I've been talking to my kids about this. have, classmates who, know, middle school, elementary school, massive amounts of sugar and caffeine, just to function through the day. And they're not. Yeah. And not really sleeping through the night. and then that has knock on effects, but I'm saying, look, caffeine is blocking your body, sending you a signal that you're tired and you need to do something about it. So there might be some very strategic moments.
Cameron (13:41.647)
Are they doing the energy drinks, the monsters and all that? Yeah.
Nathan (13:59.123)
but it is an unhealthy thing if you continuously ignore the alarm bells that your body is trying to send you. So you'd be way better off to have an alertness of like, what does my body need and just sleep when you need it rather than to mask that. And so the masking element here is the deeper part of the issue. So whether it's your edible or your two glasses of wine before bed, what is it that we're trying to doll ourselves from?
Cameron (14:05.027)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (14:24.88)
Or what are the other signals that maybe our body physiologically or maybe culturally sociologically or spiritually that we are ignoring that are maybe some little alarm bells that are a gift to say, wait a second, the pace and this and your life is not on a sustainable trajectory here. You, you can, you can't just keep putting black electrical tape over all the warning lights on the dash on your car, unless you drive a Toyota, which you can do that for at least a hundred thousand miles. But I'm
Cameron (14:52.345)
Yeah
Nathan (14:53.138)
So the analogy breaks down, but this stuff works for a time and then it doesn't.
Cameron (15:02.639)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (15:03.43)
And I don't think that's uncontroversial or that's controversial.
Cameron (15:08.051)
One big question here for me is why do so many of us want to escape reality on a routine basis? I think that's the Pascalian question here because yeah.
Nathan (15:16.766)
Well, okay, but you know the answer to it.
Cameron (15:21.431)
I do, but before we go to that answer, we could tease it out a little bit because Pascal paid a lot of attention to what he called diversions or distractions. so he, though he was writing in the 1700s, he was a distinctly modern thinker. And he was talking a lot about people who were, in his day, it was gambling. That was the big one, which is why he came up with the wager as one of his arguments as well. But he was talking about modern people.
chasing distractions. But Pascal also then would talk about how our actual condition is one, here's where he sounds almost like a cosmic horror writer. He talks about us marooned on this lonely, tiny little spot in this vast universe which is so, so, just yawns before us.
And the fact that we're hurling inextricably toward the abyss. This is his language. It's like we're hurdling down there and we're in some sort of a vehicle and we're kind of just trying to look at funny things on the way like slot machines. Or now you would just say, you know, take edibles or, but we're all, we're all going to die is what we're saying. He's saying we're mortal, we're fragile. We have this magnificent mind, consciousness, but we're heading towards some sort of oblivion, some sort of eternal fate.
And we're all just kind of meh, that's why he's the big, he's the big guy trying to target indifference and apathy. But so yeah, so the answer is people feel increasing levels of despair. But yeah, I get it too. I get it. Yeah.
Nathan (16:58.098)
Yeah, which I get.
So I'm not, in fact, I am awed often by how well people don't despair given some of the circumstances and visions of the world that they claim to have.
Cameron (17:14.063)
Well, some of those there's, you know, a lot of, not a lot, some profound social psychologists like Ernest Becker. You remember Ernest Becker who wrote the denial of death. That's a book that deserves to get rediscovered by a new generation. Some TikToker needs to hold that up and say, everyone should read this, you know, run, don't walk to your local bookstore and get your hands on this. And then it will go viral and suddenly we'll all be reading. But Ernest Becker.
Nathan (17:36.606)
You
Cameron (17:43.275)
says that a huge part of our cultural project involves the denial that we're mortal, involves the denial of death. And we have these immortalization projects that are going on nowadays. And it used to be people would try to build a successful life, a legacy, something that would outlive them. Now, I think people aren't that ambitious because I think people are so disillusioned and cynical with the world as it is today. think it's more like, how can I ensure
that I feel good most of the time. How can I ensure maximal, how can I just maximize pleasure in my life? I mean, that's about the best I'm gonna get in this life. So I'll work really hard and then I get these escape patches from reality and I'm gonna enjoy the absolute heck out of that. And that's how I'm gonna get through the day. It's really sad when you say it out loud like this. And this is not original to me. mean, this is David Foster Wallace, the novelist I never shut up about. This is essentially.
most of what he wrote wrote about in his certainly an infinite jest, but in all of his a lot of his short stories also.
Nathan (18:49.81)
Because you I think you get the dismissive maybe the the Christian judgy version of this where you look at something like They just can't cope with reality and you say hang on a second Let's zoom out and think about what their vision and version of reality is Put yourself in that situation and if you're going to subtract out any metaphysical or narrative vision of purpose meaning responsibility and freedom and health and destiny Why not? I mean
Cameron (19:18.873)
Right.
Nathan (19:19.507)
That's.
Cameron (19:22.251)
There isn't a whole lot to speak against that if you subtract all of those elements that you just mentioned. I I think about, I live in the suburbs. Let me describe for you just for a few seconds the suburban wasteland in which I make my home. All right, we've known about it for years. Really great writers have written about it. John Cheever wrote about it. He has short stories that begin with a husband pouring himself
a glass of gin at 10 a.m. staring out his window and he just can't believe that his wife has secretly started dancing in a strip club because her life is empty and she's bored with him and his life is crumbling around him. Or a show like Mad Men or a movie like American Beauty. I mean, this has been going on for a long time. I the suburbs, and I live here and I'm here to tell you there's a high degree of accuracy to all of that. mean, so much around here revolves, you know,
you know, sort of revolves around social performance. And now that I'm in my fourth decade, now it's all about showing off your kids, getting them involved in as many activities as possible and posting about it. So everybody knows how wonderful your kids are, how accomplished they are, how they're honor students and how they're how they're involved in every club and they're selling cookies, Girl Scout cookies, they're doing all those things. Yes, I am a success. Well, this is so exhausting and soul crushing.
Nathan (20:44.072)
Do you have sustainably harvested wood in your floor in your kitchen, Cameron?
Cameron (20:47.287)
Yes, you do. Yes, everything is everything is locally sourced everything and of course, you're very healthy You spend a lot of time in the gym. I'm picking on myself. I go to the gym I get it but after a while, this is so soul-draining and and just exhausting and There's an emptiness to it as well if if I mean there's not that some of these things aren't good things It's good to invest in your kids. Take care of kids have them do Activities all of that, but if it's becoming a way of legitimating your existence Wow
Now you're in some pretty heavy territory. And so when that's the case, then guess what's your consolation prize for all of that? Margaritas with my friends, an edible here or an all-inclusive resort. mean, those are your escape patches. From what? From this soul crushing reality in which you find yourself where you're always performing. Yeah, that's hard.
Nathan (21:39.935)
I'm gonna call you out Cameron because I agree and we're just gonna put a stake in the sand here You said something to me You can reward this but this is the summary of it. You're like, know, you're like, you're like I got to the point where you know, I don't know anybody who I think has a happy meaningful Deep rich life that I look up to and respect who takes an edible every day to get over the day At the end of it or something that effective you're like
We're not really seeing the fruit of so yes, there's the self medication through pick whatever you chemical you want or screens I mean we haven't talked about the technological use of this or food But it's saying can we look at some of these as a? Not as a cutesy fun-wrapped treat but as a
Cameron (22:21.122)
Absolutely.
Nathan (22:35.216)
Indicator to ourselves and maybe we need to slow down and think a little bit more about the broader structures and patterns of our lives
Cameron (22:42.015)
Yes. mean, I think you could take that so you can expand it and say, one way is you can say, well, is this stuff really good for you? Is it healthy? it have, is the net effect really, really good for you? Or you can think about it a little differently and say, take a person you believe to be this, as far as this side of eternity goes, all things being equal, a genuinely fulfilled, happy and balanced person. Does that person
overeat on a regular basis. Does that person drink gargantuan amounts of caffeine so that they're effectively acting like a coke fiend all day long? Does that person take edibles on a regular basis to escape reality? Does that person drink two to three glasses of wine to take the edge off at the end of every day? I I think the obvious answer here is no, these are the right word for what I'm, you can use the word indulgences here, you could use the word vices.
These, all of the things I've named are being used in these instances as vices because they're being used excessively and they're being used specifically to try to mitigate or to try to give you some sort of relief from reality. And so that's a sign, that's a check engine light. That's a warning sign in your soul if that's a habitual. Now,
You know, there's a whole separate conversation. There are times of festivity and festival in life. There are times of feasting. There are times of feasting. The Bible is filled with feasts, but you don't feast every single day. I think the problem with us in America often is, and I mean, increasingly this is around the world, but I'm just picking on the nation in which we make our homes, Nathan. We do have this notion, and maybe this is a modern thing where we, you find something really good.
Nathan (24:13.128)
Hmm, yeah. Feasting.
Cameron (24:35.629)
That was really good. And now you think, okay, how can I have that all the time? How can I do that every single day? Rather than, no, there are certain times where this is a time of celebration, a time of feasting. And then there are other times where, yeah, you put your head to the grindstone and you have to get things done. And it's a time of, you know, a time a little bit more of scarcity or a time of just more concentration, that kind of thing. We just, we're lacking balance when it comes to so much of this.
Nathan (25:05.97)
I was thinking Cameron this morning, why did God create the manna so that the people had to go and pick it up when he was miraculously feeding them? I mean, he could have just injected it straight into their stomachs or imparted the calories. Why did they have to go pick it up? There was a participatory role in God's miraculous intervention in their lives of something that they needed to be part of it in order to see the meaning of it.
And the the continuous craving to figure out how can I get the most with the least effort? Is not a healthy human posture and run that across multiple categories Where there's Okay, I think sometimes generationally this is a hoot just to listen to like I was visiting Helping somebody at different farms. There's this old guy who is going nuts about this young worker who?
Cameron (25:45.07)
Yeah.
Nathan (26:05.136)
Always had a vape pen in his hand and it's don't let that guy get in that tractor because it always stinks like and here he Comes with his adult sippy cup. Look, he's a one-handed guy He can't do anything because he can't put that vape pen, know Just you take like an 80 year old dude who's like busted his knuckles all of his life and then looks at some kid who can't function without puffing on something for 15 seconds and listen to the tirade which would not be fit for publication, but it is funny that there is a little bit of a
sense of by by doing this what are we deadening ourselves to but what are the joys that we're missing by not listening to the signals that our body in our community around us is giving us and growing into it and so if you're living with this kind of moonscape cultural vision then yes I can see how there would be a desire to distract ourselves from that and to deaden our senses to that reality
But the Christian vision is that you don't live on a moonscape. You live on a physical earth that God created and said was good and put humans in it, which he said were very good. And that there really is a joy and responsibility and freedom and meaning and purpose are all actually really there and available. And so it's not just what are we.
deadening ourselves. I mean, it's that sense of there's cuts both ways and argument for of like, what am I forfeiting because of this that I can't see because my vision of reality is too low.
Cameron (27:34.339)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (27:42.251)
Yeah, I think there are so many aspects to this that we can still explore here on the podcast because it's a big... What I hope, Nathan, as we've talked about this, is that people haven't gotten any kind of a legalistic impression from this, but have rather seen this conversation expanded.
Nathan (28:04.892)
Well, because there is a, but yeah, so it's not legalistic. So if,
If it's just categorically the case that if I don't sleep more than three hours a night, that my response time is less than if I had been drinking significant amounts of alcohol. Like, that's not legalism. That's pointing out this is the way that your body works.
Like, that's, that, I'm not even, we're not even making a Christian point here. We're just saying, look at the, I mean, there's deep harmony between them, but I think we are saying that God created your body to send you certain signals and messages, and He put people in the world around you to send you certain signals and messages. And if instead of looking at those warning lights, you're just trying to plaster over them, that is not honoring God. It's not honoring your own body, and it's not honoring the wisdom.
of the gift of the relationships of the people that you have around you. So yeah, we don't want to be legalistic here, but you and I have both talked about the categories and the tendencies where we're prone to do this. So this is not a, we thank you God, we're not like these people. We're saying this is the human condition. And sometimes you, need somebody to kind of smack us out of it to say, is this really a sustainable long-term pattern that is for the flourishing that God desires to see in my life?
Or am I just telling myself a story that I do this because I think it's medicinally good for me?
Nathan (29:38.128)
Here's your reminder, ponder these things.
Cameron (29:44.547)
Well, we hope you continue to ponder these things and thank you as always for hanging with us through this roving conversation on what I think, what we both think is very important material. So yeah, we'll be back on this one for sure. But you've been listening to Thinking Out Loud, a podcast where we think out loud about current events and Christian hope.