Why Most Christians Feel Unready to Share the Gospel (And Why That’s Okay)
Cameron (00:00)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co-host, Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:04)
And I'm your cohost, Nathan Rittenhouse.
Cameron (00:06)
I've been thinking about an old German poem from Rainer Maria Rilke.
Nathan (00:14)
That's what keeps everybody up at night. Educate us.
Cameron (00:16)
doesn't really roll,
well, it doesn't so much roll off the tongue as come gutterly from your throat, which is what German is supposed to do, isn't it? This is, so this came to me, I mean, and I do mean came to me very kind of spontaneously as I was working on a talk on evangelism, gave, I recently gave three online lectures or talks, whatever you want to call them. Lecture always sounds so formal and kind of annoying, but for the CS Lewis Institute on how to do evangelism today.
And I began to think about, you know, the normal performance anxiety that many of us experience when it comes to giving a gospel presentation or just telling people about Jesus who are not Christians. We often think things like, gosh, I'm not good at this. I'm bad with words. I'm not ready. I think I'm not ready is a big one. Exactly. Yeah. If I don't, so if I just go to one more conference or read one more book or listen to one more podcast listener, this is your podcast. After this you
Nathan (01:03)
Or if I don't get it perfect, like.
You be it.
Cameron (01:16)
Go
and get that news out there. Yeah. So if, by the way, just as an aside, if that's your mindset, you're never going to be ready. There'll always be one more thing you could do. Just putting it out there. There comes a point where you just need to do it. But anyway, as I was working on this, I think the Lord brought to mind this poem, The Archaic Torso of Apollo.
Why would the Lord feed into my brain a meditation on a pagan God? ask. Well, I hope a decapitated pagan God, damaged pagan God. I hope that'll become apparent as, as we talk. But here, let me give you, let me give you a few, a few, I'm going to give you a few lines from the poem in a second. In my experience, Nathan, there's no better way to make an audience completely tune out than to start talking about poetry. just.
Nathan (01:49)
A decapitated pagan god.
Cameron (02:11)
Bear with me here, don't be afraid. It's a short poem. I'm not going to read. Yeah, there you go. Well, it's a short poem. It's very intense and I'm not going to read a whole lot of it. And it's not in, and it's been translated from the German, so you won't hear any from me on this. So don't worry. And I can make mean German jokes because I grew up speaking German and a German speaking country. So I have that right. You know, I got diplomatic immunity on the, on this one, but so.
Nathan (02:14)
I might log off for a little bit here, but I'll be back on when Cameron finishes this.
Cameron (02:39)
What is the archaic torso of Apollo? Well, as the title suggests, this is a damaged statue that was recovered. And it's likely Nathan, being Nathan has, I think, tracked the whereabouts of the actual torso in question. But it is a torso of Apollo and it is an ancient masterpiece. And I know for a while the piece that was believed to have inspired Rilke was on display in the Louvre, but it's in Cleveland now.
Nathan (03:08)
I think it
might be in Cleveland. That's the problem with torsos, they just move around so much.
Cameron (03:10)
Okay.
They do. Yeah. They're very, they're surprisingly mobile. But so, but, what Rilke is talking about, first of all, let me give you a few lines here. All right. And these are, so I'm going to quote the poem here for a little bit and then give you the final lines. The final lines are very famous. There's a, there is a good chance that many of you have actually heard the final lines, but listen to this. So he says, and yet his torso is still suffused with brilliance from inside.
Nathan (03:14)
You
Cameron (03:40)
Like a lamp in which his gaze now turned to low gleams in all its power. So what's he saying? He's saying it's damaged and defaced, but this, this defaced statue is so powerful, so beautiful and so vital that, so those lines are eerie. When you're before it, it's as if it's staring at you, even though there's no head. It's as if it's
not only staring at you, but scrutinizing you and not just scrutinizing you, judging you. So let me give you the final lines here. And these are, again, the most famous in the poem. For here, there is no place that does not see you. You must change your life. You may have heard the phrase, you must change your life. It comes from this poem.
Nathan (04:32)
not your mother.
Cameron (04:34)
Right. Yeah. Not your mother yelling, yelling that at you when you're 15 and sleep until 11 o'clock. So he's describing an experience that I actually don't think is that unusual. He's talking about being in the presence of something beautiful and the odd sense of diminishment that accompanies that. This doesn't just have to come through a work of art. In fact, for most of us, I don't think it'll be a work of art. For most of us, this will be, this could be a majestic natural scene.
It also could be, this happens when you're around a certain person who's very beautiful. There are different ways for a person to be beautiful, by the way. So this could be a person who you see and you feel a sense of intense moral purity about them. So for instance, Mother Teresa of Avila is a very easy example to point to because she's not conventionally beautiful, but she had this effect on Malcolm Muggeridge, the famous journalist. If you read his reflections on being around Mother Teresa,
Nathan (05:07)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Cameron (05:30)
When she walked away in the train station in India, he felt that all the beauty in the world was walking away from him. her moral purity was intensely beautiful to him, but also gave him that sense of diminishment. Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's hear it.
Nathan (05:42)
Can I share a story? So, I have
no clue who this guy was. He was a Korean church leader that I think was fairly well known. I don't even remember his name. We bumped into each other in a library in Oxford and just struck up a conversation and maybe chatted for like 30 minutes. And as a result of that conversation, I stopped and talked to every single homeless person between the library
and where I was sleeping that night. There's just something about him that embedded something so severe in me by gentle nature and love that I did stuff that I normally didn't do. Yeah.
Cameron (06:16)
Yep, that's it.
changed your life.
You changed your life. See, that's it. That's it. So sanctity is one very important thing that a lot of us will experience this. It's actually way more amazingly, extravagantly common than we realize, but you have to get out a little bit and you have to listen to people in order for this to happen, because these kinds of people are around us. I think majestic scenes in nature, this is another big one.
Nathan (06:28)
And I don't even know the guy's name.
Cameron (06:52)
My dad had an experience somewhat like this when he was walking through a redwood forest in California. It was, it was, it was beautiful, but it was also awesome and ominous in, in you feel small. Yes. And, also just, yeah, feeling of, of the, that you are, walking in a place that is sacred. You should take your shoes off your feet. So these kinds of kind of holy experience. Now, some people can have the, obviously it can be
Nathan (07:03)
It makes you feel small, for sure. I mean, even the firms there are bigger than you.
Cameron (07:22)
So that's what Rilke is describing. That's what happened to him as he stood before this archaic torso.
Nathan (07:27)
because most people,
if you Google this right now or look this up, you're not going to be impressed. At the torso of a poly, you're like, well, there's a mostly naked guy with his arms and legs and other important body parts broken off. ⁓ But for him sitting in front, in the presence of the actual physical thing, this is a reflection. Yeah.
Cameron (07:33)
No.
Well, you have to be there. yeah, that's another,
we miss this as 21st century people who are very, very online. so we, another one is, mean, people standing before a work of art in a museum transfixed is something that sounds strange to a lot of us, or it sounds elitist and kind of snobby and annoying, but it is a real thing. But you're not going to get it on the flattened image.
that you get from a Google search or something like that. You have to actually be there. So you can't see the contours and the definition and the real, I mean, even looking at Michelangelo's David online, it's not going to compare to standing before this colossal statue in Italy. yeah, mean, presence is kind of an important feature here, but he's, so this is what Rilke is experiencing here. Now, what on earth does this have to do with?
Nathan (08:40)
Yeah, this is a weird
talk on evangelism Cameron.
Cameron (08:42)
I'm sorry. This is weird even for me. What does this have to do with evangelism? Well, it occurs to me that something similar happens when we point others to Christ. Now, Christ is not the problem here. It's us. It's we, the messengers. So the apostle Paul says that we have this treasure, and this treasure, by the way,
I remember hearing a talk on this once, Nathan, and I'm not going to name names and I won't cast, so I'm not going to cast aspersions, but this person gave a well-written and very inspiring talk about the treasure that we carry in earthen vessels is our gifting from the Lord. And if we, you know, we are fallen sinners with that gifting, but that gifting will shine through when we follow Jesus. And we're walking out of there and a dear friend of mine turning to me saying, nah, that was compelling. That's not what that passage is about because the treasure.
It is not your gifting. It's the gospel of Jesus Christ. So I am confident, Nathan, that we all, myself, all of us will bungle and deface the gospel. And because, and it's not just our words. It's always, here's, I'll use your line, Nathan. it's much worse than that. It'd be one thing. You could have the most slick, amazing gospel presentation. It, heck, you can find it by the way.
Nathan (09:58)
Yeah.
Cameron (10:06)
If you want the most beautiful, slick gospel presentation delivered from a very beautiful, conventionally, you know, handsome or beautiful face, you can find that. there is an influencer out there for you who will do that. Give you the quote, perfect gospel presentation. That's still not it. Why? We're sinners. So the very shape of our lives in an important sense testifies against us because
We fall short of the glory. When fallen people like you and me tell others about Jesus, we will deface the gospel. But like that archaic torso, the vitality, the power, the awful purity, awful in the original sense of that word, awful awe, will shine through.
And to receptive hearts and minds, and that's a part, by the way, the receptivity part, that's largely out of our hands. I'm tempted to say almost entirely out of our hands. You know, what actually transpires in the other person's heart, that's not up to us. But when receptive hearts and minds are present, they'll be reached by that beauty and that splendor and that awful purity. And guess what? The message, the initial message will be the same. There's nothing here that isn't seen.
You must change your life.
Nathan (11:35)
There's a phrase that's kind of paralleling. I think it's an NT writes book simple Christianity where he talks about the echoes of a voice and So there are things that catch our attention that aren't the thing themselves, but they have to have some reference somewhere And so when you're looking at a decapitated, you know statue You can't not imagine you can't imagine that somebody made it like that You don't think well, that's the original you think that's a busted up version of the original or if you
So his idea of your like there's things in life that is replaced to goodness, truth and beauty that are echoes. You're not hearing the original, but it, jars you because it forces you to think, wait a second, but there something made that noise that there is a there there, even though the thing that you're hearing is an imperfect version of that. So correct me if I'm wrong camera, but that is the point that you're making is that we are supposed to live lives in such a way that the gospel appears attractive. And this isn't
Cameron trying to like, ⁓ holiness doesn't matter or squirming out of anything. It's just saying that if something is true, then it's like, okay, how many times have your kids drawn you a picture of a giraffe? That, know, like, well, what's some imagination I can see that's a giraffe? Yeah, well, Cyanidor is one of my kids used to call it.
Cameron (12:53)
dinosaur? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nathan (12:58)
Well, it is, it's a, it's it's a gesture toward a thing that is actually there, even though it's imperfect in and of itself. And so I, is that the simplicity of the point that you're making here, Cameron, is that our gospel presentations and our interactions with non-Christians and our testimony and testifying to the goodness that we have seen is always going to be less than optimal because God is using us at the same time. It is enough.
Cameron (13:03)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (13:28)
As a work of the Spirit and as God is working in the other person's life that it is a pointer towards something That they need to see themselves, but can't see through us. We can only point toward it
Cameron (13:29)
Yes.
Yes, I think one of the big killers here is idealism. Idealism is so destructive in so many different ways. Idealism can stop you in dead in your tracks from actually doing what you've been called to do by God. So it can stop you from obeying and you can rationalize by saying, well, I'm not ready yet. So I'm being faithful by preparing, preparing, preparing, preparing. So there's that. But idealism can also, it's a significant challenge to the church.
which is why I want to stress the earth and vessels piece. so Christians are fallen human beings. So here's what's simultaneously true, Nathan. We are called to also pursue holiness and righteousness.
Nathan (14:28)
Well, Paul
always refers to the messed up churches of saints.
Cameron (14:31)
Absolutely. But we are called to, by God's grace, pursue greater and greater degrees of spiritual maturity so that we need to do that. We are his craftsmanship, we are his workmanship, created for good works. That's real. But it is also true that we are fallen, and so that's a significant roadblock. And it's also just a factor of the human condition that needs to be factored in.
Is that an excuse? Is that explaining away? No, but having the correct anthropology here is necessary so that our expectations are proper. also, and C.S. Lewis and many, many other people have made the same point throughout the years. C.S. Lewis makes this point in mere Christianity. Christians are in different places on their spiritual journey. Another way you can say that is there are varying levels of spiritual maturity.
And spiritual maturity is a funny thing. It doesn't necessarily come with age. So there are some young Christians who are spiritual seniors, and there are some older Christians who are still spiritual juniors and they're still learning. But we're all one catancorous, sometimes annoying family. And we're all crowded together in our various churches. So yeah.
Nathan (15:56)
So this is
where the grandpa written house quote comes in that the church is a glorious mess.
Cameron (16:03)
Yeah, it's the perfect quote. Thanks again, Grandpa Rittenhouse for the win. It is a glorious mess. Yeah.
Nathan (16:08)
You know, it's, you know,
it's just one of those things like, hopefully we get there someday, but some stuff, if you just get to think about it for 94 years, you can't put things more succinctly than what we're trying to do here. So give credit to some time there.
Cameron (16:19)
Yeah, but
I don't know. I've known some people in their 90s and I don't know any of them except for your grandfather who are as theologically a droid. So this man is a gift.
Nathan (16:32)
It's what you put your energy into. Hey speaking of which if you have made it this far in this podcast Congratulations, you're part of the elite few but if you really do like this content ⁓ Remember to share it with other people to like it to subscribe to it You can support what we do and our better pattering around the world at WWW.toltogether.com and keep keep in touch with us there So just want to put in a plug to remind you that we're doing a lot of other things rather than just talking about it
But it's a pleasure to have these conversations with each other and for you to listen in and think along with us. We really do value that. So Cameron, if what you're saying is true, let's let's walk through some of implications here. So you've outlined for us, like, yes, you're an earthen vessel. Your proclamation, your testimony is going to be imperfect. That's expected. What does that allow you to do?
Cameron (17:28)
man, it allows you to, first of all, it gives you, there's tremendous freedom there. It allows you to go out and just do it. And again, am I arguing that, you know, you go in blind, you're not prepared? No, but yeah.
Nathan (17:42)
Okay, so this is important because I do know people and
I think it's helpful who who have practiced I know somebody who stands in front of the mirror and says okay if I have three minutes I'm gonna start a timer Here's the the most efficient way that I can share what the Lord's done in my life and what I believe the gospel to be is Great. I mean, I you know that that that is not contrary to what Cameron's saying here Yeah
Cameron (18:05)
Not opposed to that at all. Nope.
But not everybody's going to do that. But also I want us to bear in mind that a good deal, in fact, in my case, most of my evangelistic conversations are out of season moments. Be ready to preach the word in and out of season. They're not planned and they don't follow any kind of neat textbook rules or examples. It's the crazy uncle cornering you at Thanksgiving. It's the coworker who's highly skeptical and a big fan of the new atheists or Sam Harris. It just
tends to come up and then suddenly, no, here we go. I'm not ready. It's often, in my experience, it's often with family members and other people tell me, you know, it's often with family members and they come out thinking, just, I screwed that up. And what they mean is that they just didn't, they didn't have the verbal fluency that they wanted, all the words. They weren't as eloquent as they wanted to be. And part of what I'm the implication, one of the implications of what I'm saying is that doesn't matter. You need to hear that.
Nathan (19:00)
Yeah,
but it's also not how any other...
Any other conversation goes. let's say, example, camera that I'm trying to convince you that you should get some chickens again. I don't remember the name of your last chickens at the Fox ran off of sad times. Glendon Gertie, sad days, sad days. Fantastic Mr. Fox. You know, that was a couple of years ago. So, you know, despite my best attempts to get Cameron involved in some sort of agricultural backyard experiment there. ⁓
Cameron (19:15)
Glenda and Gertie.
Nathan (19:32)
There would never be a time that I think that in three minutes I could. And in fact, the fact that you did, it was not the result of any three minute conversation at any time or just one person or ⁓ like that's not how people's consciences are disturbed enough to start to consider whether or not something is true. so there's no other, like you couldn't convince somebody to change their banking CD rates in three minutes. I mean, like there's just.
I so so what I'm saying here is like don't have it's a conversation don't expect more of that conversation than what you would normally see in a conversation you're just providing that and then if the Lord is going to take that and run with it fantastic but that's that's out of your your realm of responsibility or gifting for what that person does with it for the rest of their life
Cameron (20:29)
Well, you take yourself off the hook because this is not some performance. Conversation is a better word for it. And also there are different personality types here, Nathan. Some people are of the type where they will, so they'll, they'll rehearse in front of a mirror. They'll have a three minute spiel. And we've met people who are, they just have about them an intensity and an urgency. I remember one person I know, I heard about this person was in.
England and one of the strategies that they adopted was they would go out when it was pouring rain with an umbrella and they'd find all the people who didn't have an umbrella. I want to use the word trapped, offer them their umbrella and then, yeah, well, I have you here. Let me tell you about Jesus Christ. And you know what? So would I do that? No, I would be massively, I'm too, I'm too British in my spirit to be like that. This person wasn't British and
Nathan (21:11)
Yeah.
Cameron (21:28)
but also saw some real fruit there because the boldness and the urgency, now that's who the person was though. That's not who necessarily you are. No, I'm saying, yeah, and the Lord gave to this person that distinct personality. The Lord gave you your quirky, weird personality too and can shine. I'm saying one implication is the Lord can shine through all of us who are his faithful messengers.
Nathan (21:36)
It wasn't contrived.
⁓ but
hang on a second. It might get more serious than this because...
So have this treasure in jars of clay, earthen vessels, pick your translation, that apparently God thought this was the best vessel. So it's not that like, this is what I have to work with. It's that the Lord thought this was the best tool. That's different. But there's an element here of saying that if presenting the gospel is an invitation into a way of life,
Cameron (22:00)
Great band.
Nathan (22:25)
We have this this treasure and You know 4,000 karat gold that's bedazzled with all kinds of jewels and rubies that somebody's gonna like I don't you know what that is that I that's not me But having a treasure in jars of clay is a much more common utensil that has a higher degree of relatability to people who also maybe feel common and fragile or
Cameron (22:51)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (22:51)
There's a what am I what am I pushing for here? There's there's a commonality to it. That is the genius of the way this works That I think is intentional on God's part
Cameron (22:56)
Yes.
Well, there's a dynamic of also meek and lowly humility here. So you'll notice there's a thread running through many of the people whom God chooses in scripture. And it's a thread of unworthiness where specifically many of them will say, ⁓ I can't, not me, I can't do this. I can't do this. I'm not the one. I mean, I think of Moses, you know, I'm not good with speech. You know, I need, I need help. can't, I can't be your mouthpiece. So part of what I.
Nathan (23:17)
Well, it-
Yeah, but why did
God send Moses and not an angel to Pharaoh?
Cameron (23:34)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Certainly. Yeah. I mean, what would have been more impressive? I mean, come on. So it's, but part of what Nathan is saying here that's really, really helpful is, if you are saying, I can't do this. I'm look at me. I'm such a mess. Congratulations. That's you're in the right frame of mind.
Nathan (23:37)
So why didn't Gabriel just stick around at the birth of Jesus and just do all the work?
Yeah.
Well, think about it like this. So I used to work for a tutoring company, um, cause I needed money that badly while I was in seminary. Um, and some of us S A T A C T test prep. And so I went in and they had asked about the different things, study of different things. thought I could tutor math, whatever. And then about S A T A C T and I said, Hey, I actually, didn't have a S A T A C T test score. And they're like, perfect. We never hire people who had a perfect test score to teach other people.
how to take this test well. Because if you had a perfect test score, you probably didn't have to think about it and you'd be really crummy at teaching it. We want people like you who did well, but had to think about it a little bit to be the people who do the teaching. And so I think there's that thing in thinking about yourself. The fact that you aren't perfect is what makes you the most likely person to be impactful in the conversation that you're about to have.
Cameron (24:51)
Well, people who think or thought that they were perfect, Christ had some pretty scary words for them. So yeah, I mean, when it comes to, and I've said this before, when it comes to evangelism, we need to hear this. There are no experts. There are people of deep spiritual wisdom and righteousness, but there are no experts. There are no human whisperers. Like there are horse whisperers. I stole that from Peter Crave because it's so good. there, so you are an
Nathan (24:55)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cameron (25:20)
You are unworthy in the sense that you're a fall of human being, but you're you're saved by God's grace. And so because of that, and you're set free, you're liberated to share the good news with others. And that, when we begin to take this to heart, notice also that this crushes pride. So if you went, I personally wouldn't want to meet the evangelist who goes in with the mindset of I am God's gift to humanity.
people are really fortunate to have me cross their paths because I am the most eloquent. I am the most sinless. mean, it sounds like a parody, there are, unfortunately, can fall into, mean, pride is just ever present. We can fall into that mindset. But when we're in the territory of recognizing simultaneously our unworthiness, but then the worthiness that comes about from Christ's righteousness given to us, we're in the right position.
Nathan (26:19)
So that no one can boast is a repeated phrase. ⁓
Cameron (26:20)
No one can boast. Somebody really smart said that.
That sounds really good. I should write that down.
So I hope this conversation, idiosyncratic and eccentric as it's been, using a weird poem about a mangled pagan statue, has encouraged you and challenged you and brought you to a place where you maybe can entertain the thought, hey, you know what? I can do this. It is possible. The Lord has me here for a reason. It's not an accident and...
I am a person by God's grace who can be a vessel of mercy. So stop hesitating and stop over-training and over-preparing and over-thinking everything and just have those conversations and be ready for them in and out of season when they happen. And don't feel a sense of total panic. Cause guess what? We always say, we give lip service to the fact, well, we can't save anybody.
But then the conversation happens and we think, ⁓ I gotta save this person. You can't and you don't have to, but you are called to be a faithful messenger. So don't be a scaredy cat and don't be afraid to look goofy because you will and that's okay.
Nathan (27:42)
There's your encouraging thought for the day. You've been listening to thinking out loud podcast where we think out loud about current events and Christian hope.