Is the Golden Rule Really Christian Ethics? Prayer, the Sermon on the Mount, and Following Jesus
Nathan (00:00)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co-host, Nathan Rittenhouse.
Cameron (00:04)
And I'm your co host, Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:07)
Before we start today's possibly heretical episode, we need to make two corrections that have been brought to our attention both by listener comments on things that we have messed up. Actually, it's one and a half corrections. first one is months ago we did an episode on Jason R. Day, the Cambridge professor who sadly took his own life, and we had mentioned in that episode that he was gay, and I think that is not the case. So you can do a little more researching on his relational status, but that was
And some things that we had seen and was incorrect. And so we're sorry for that and appreciate your patience as we're talking about something as the story was developing. Second one is, and this was fun because it was a little bit of an educational moment for me personally, is that when we talked in our episode about resentment and contentment, I had used the phrase out of First Timothy six, eight and said, If we have food and shelter, we will be satisfied with that. And somebody helpfully pointed out in the comments, no, actually the scripture says if we have food and clothing.
We will be satisfied with that. And when I saw the comment, I was like, yeah, obviously they're right. But then I went back and looked at it and I was reading from the NET, the New English translation, at the time, which the New English translation does say if we have food and shelter, we will be content with that. Paul uses two other Greek words for clothing previously in First Timothy, and this one has a little bit more of a yeah, it's it's just an interesting connotation in the word. And so actually it was a
the comment was I was like, yeah, that's the way that I know that verse. But I was reading it from a translation that had shelter, which then gave me the opportunity to go back and do a little nerding out on some various terms and phrases there. So anyway, if you want to go down a rabbit hole sometime, look up the roots of the Greek word used for shelter slash clothing in first Timothy six, eight. There you go. Now, off to the show. Cameron, did you have anything you'd like to apologize or clarify for before we continue here?
Cameron (02:01)
Yeah, no, I I I'm sorry. I yep. Occasionally we we get things wrong
Nathan (02:04)
Yeah. just for the
Cameron (02:06)
and other than yes, mea culpa. Mea culpa, I'm sorry. So thank you for
Nathan (02:09)
The
Cameron (02:10)
your generosity of spirit and for bringing it to our attention. So we appreciate it.
Nathan (02:13)
Yep. We we wanna we wanna
speak the truth and that means being truthful about when we aren't correct. So that's thanks for being listeners who can put up with such things. All right. that's gonna be tested because I wanna take us off into here's the background. So I preached a sermon on Matthew chapter six Matthew chapter seven, the whole ask, seek, knock, Jesus talking about coming in prayer and the one who
Yeah. Let me just walk through it. So ask it'll be given to you, seeking you will find, knocking the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives the one who seeks find and the one who knocks the door will be opened. We know this. and then he kind of throws it back on them and he says, Is there anyone among you who if a son asks for bread will give him a stone, or if he asks for a fish will give him a snake? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him? And it's a beautiful passage. There's a lot going on there.
about prayer, about our expectations as we come to God in prayer. And like I said, I preached a whole sermon on it, so I try not to do that here. But it is helpful, I think, just to point out that there are biblical references to Jesus asking, Jesus seeking, and Jesus knocking, in which things were not immediately fulfilled. And so that should slow us down in using this as a some sort of magic trick in order to get God to do our will. And in fact, that's what I want to push into
With the fact that as I was studying this, the next sentence just didn't sit right with me. So you have this a ask, seek knock, even though you're evil, you know how to good give good gifts. How much more so will your father give good gifts? And then this sentence, in everything, treat others as you would want them to treat you, for this is the law and the prophets. some translations, it's literally in Greek, this is the law and the prophets. Some say fulfills, this sums up, but it's this is the law and the prophets. And for the life of me.
I spent like a good month, Cameron, wrestling with why is that sentence there? how do we go from God giving good gifts to suddenly just this random sentence of therefore in the way that you wish other people would treat you, do the same to them? how does that connect in there? And this kind of spent sent me in a in a tailspin of there's equivalent in Luke 631, also right in the middle of loving your enemies, you have this passage.
And I think a lot of Americans would know, English speakers would know this sentence as the golden rule, which is sometimes contrasted with the s silver rule, which is the opposite of this, which shows up in Confucius, that shows up in some ancient Egyptian philosophy, which is don't do to the other what you don't want them to do to you. So that's the the negative sense, which it turns out is fairly easy to do, cause it's a it's a statement of of restriction.
Jesus flips it around into a prescriptive initiative, the thing that you want them to do to you, you should do to them. And so the initiative really does come back into the practitioner and the in the disciple here, which follows from this ask, seek, knock, take initiative, reach, push, go, request, ask, seek, side of it. However, as I was thinking through this, here's the question. Why do we call this the golden rule?
Be and I I and I kinda got looking at the history of it. I think in the early sixteen hundreds, there's some Anglican theologians that started referring to it as the Golden Rule, for like the kind of universal standard. and we do this from everything from, you know, credit cards to break pads. Did you get the silver, the gold, the platinum edition? So we kind of use gold as a yeah, the the highest standard, the highest quality. And
So
I think this is a profound statement that Jesus makes. There's a lot to it, but I want to question whether or not it's actually the golden rule. And I know that that sounds like a lot,
Cameron (06:20)
Mm.
Nathan (06:21)
but I I have some questions here of whether or not the way in which we're using it in a modern sense, A takes into account the way in which Jesus was talking about this, and B whether or not we actually want to use it as the highest standard for Christian ethics.
Do you want to continue this, Cameron, or are we heretics already?
Cameron (06:41)
No, no, no. Done. I'm gonna time out. We can't do this. No, I'm just kidding.
Nathan (06:44)
Yeah yeah.
Cameron (06:45)
Well, so you're saying you're not questioning why it's called the golden rule. You're not questioning that, you know, you're you're questioning its centrality in Christian teaching. Or i
Nathan (06:56)
Well, y r right. Yes. So I was
Cameron (06:58)
may am I hearing you correctly? Are you crest y so if somebody says if somebody if you're talking to somebody, Nathan, and they say, you know what, but in the end, it just all comes down to the golden rule, doesn't it?
Now what do you say?
Nathan (07:11)
That's where I'm throwing a yellow flag. Yes.
Cameron (07:13)
Okay.
Nathan (07:13)
Because if if it was, if if if I'm using golden as the as the pinnacle of perfection here, Jesus could have just dropped this truth nugget and left.
Cameron (07:24)
Well can I
Nathan (07:27)
I mean, if this was the the slam dunk final so that that's the concept that I'm toying with the okay.
Cameron (07:35)
Okay, but what if somebody goes further
though and they say, no, okay, all right, all right, bro, you know. What what but but isn't doing unto others that's that's I take that to be the the full expression of of love, to seek the well be being of others. So isn't that central to Christianity?
Nathan (07:54)
I'm so glad you asked. let's let's let's talk about this.
Cameron (07:56)
Ha ha ha set you up here. Yeah.
Nathan (07:59)
Okay. So here's here's my initial impulse on this of and and I do have a view of scripture that makes me ask this type of questions of why is this verse included here in in this section of teaching? so putting my cards on the table there. Cause cause there's a sense in which I think, so you being evil know how to give good gifts, how much more so will your father give good gifts to those who ask him?
Therefore do this, that there would be a sense of saying, I'm going to decouple my behavior from the actions of others and treat them in light of the goodness of God that I've received. So there there would be that that way of reading this to say that there's a a sense here that this is getting away from Alex Talionis and eye for an eye. You did this, so I'll do this back to you. No, we're going to live in the light of the goodness that God gives us as a gift.
So so there's decoupling my behavior from the other person's action in the light of who God is. But if you look at this, it's not what it says. It says, do let me get it more literally here. Basically, that which you wish that others would do to you, that is what you should do to them. Is it's using it's using the listener, the reader, it's using myself and my desires as the platform for how it is that I should treat other people.
I I've always actually had a little bit of a a little bit of a a philosophical or moral beef with what would Jesus do? Because in inherent in the question is it's allowing the listener to be the interpreter of what it is that I think Jesus would do. That there's a subjectivity that comes from my own desires in that sentence. You know what I'm saying? Like I'm I'm reading back into so I think what did Jesus?
Cameron (09:43)
What do I think so
it should be what what do I think Jesus would do?
Nathan (09:46)
W
or what did he do? As a you know, there are
Cameron (09:49)
No, but meaning
y you're worried about me giving you what I think Jesus would do rather than Jesus himself what he would how he would yes, respond.
Nathan (09:54)
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
Okay. So so so there's those are some of the questions I have that were if if we take it just as a golden rule, then it is putting the human in the driver's seat of projecting my desires and my wishes onto the other, which I mean is is fine. It's it's it's okay. It's it's decent. It's it's better than the the than the silver rule. It's but
Cameron (10:18)
But our desires
sometimes go a little wrong. I'm guessing that's where you're going.
Nathan (10:24)
okay,
so in light of that, I've told this story on the podcast before. years ago, we had two kids who are slap smacking each other around in the hallway, wrestling, pounding on each other, on good sibling, whatever it is. And my wife intervened and said, Hey, cut this out. You know, stop horsing around. And then she said, Don't you know that you're don't you know the golden rule that you're supposed to do to the other what you would have them do to you? And the one said, Yes, but that's what I was doing.
Because he knows the golden rule, so when he hit me, he was showing me how he wanted to be treated. So I was hitting him because he had showed me how he wanted to be treated and I was just doing to him what
Cameron (11:01)
This kid
has a very bright future as an attorney.
Nathan (11:04)
Yeah, and may they never be so, and that's when I stepped in and I'm like, okay, good logic, faulty premise. Like the your form of argument is correct, but the premise that you thought that he was punching you in order to show you how it is that he wanted to be treated is not correct. and so this is the this is the thing with this, is that this rule ended up knowing it and being able to say it does not at all make you able to do it.
Cameron (11:32)
If we can back up for just a second, why is the verse there then? It's it's if it if it's it's a kind of a an abrupt break from what's happening. We we're probably gonna get a clue there, aren't we?
Nathan (11:42)
Okay. So s so so so let me
so let me jump into this in the sense that I think if you just sit and stare at us for about thirty days and then you look at the parallel let me give you yeah, let me give you the parallel here in where where it is in context in Luke six. But I say to you who are listening, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
To
the person who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other as well, and from the person who takes away your coat, do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who asks you, and do not ask for your possessions back from the person who takes them away from you.
Treat others in the same way that you would want them to treat you. It's in both circumstances, it's just dropped in there at a very
What is going on and so here's what I bottom line up in the middle here, where I think this is going, and this is my hypothesis. Again, this is just Nathan spitballing. So, listener, tread with caution. I think what's happening here is that we look at the loving your enemies, turning the cheek, giving whenever you're asked, recognizing that God gives good gifts and that we don't. He says, You, though you are evil, that
Cameron (12:59)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (13:00)
this is the basic.
That this is the bare minimum. It's the summary of the law. Earlier in the sermon, he says, I didn't come to abolish, but to fulfill the law. And unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you won't inherit the kingdom of God. I think this is the golden summary of the bare minimum of basic humans treating each other. However, if you want to push into a Christian ethic that reflects the nature of God as revealed in the life, death, resurrection, and teaching of Jesus, then you are going to run into the
moral principles and parameters that Jesus taught, and immediately think, Good God, there is no way I can do this. And then you will need to pray and ask and seek and knock and plead with the Lord to show you how to live well in the complexities of the world in which you live. And so this is a statement about prayer for our dependency on God in order to for us to see how to live well and to treat others well, not just, it felt good to me. So therefore that's going to change the way in which I think about engaging with the people around.
Cameron (14:02)
Interesting. Yeah, so
Nathan (14:09)
I i it I I know I I like it's it feels like we're in categor and in territory here that I'm I'm not dismissing it at all, but I'm wanting us to push beyond it to say because cause earlier I had said I want to decouple my behavior from the actions of the other person and see this in the light of of who God is. But also
Cameron (14:31)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (14:31)
I think we have to go deeper and decouple our behavior toward other people.
front and there is a beauty in this to say, it does not say do I think we subconsciously misinterpret this to say, do unto others as we hope they will do to us. But that's that's not what it says. So this this really isn't a if I'm nice to you, you'll be nice to me. If I scratch your back, you'll scratch yours. In this situation I acted this way, so I expect that back. It is bigger than that, but I think we have to see them in the light of the goodness that God is presenting for us.
And asking us to emulate rather than our own standard. So, I'm wanting us to not to deny any of this, but just in that way Jesus was saying, I didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. Is there a fullness here for our ethical behavior that goes beyond merely using my own desires and wishes as the platform for how I decide and am motivated to treat other people?
Cameron (15:35)
So Ask Seek Nock, which really should be the title of a song, if it isn't already. We we run into some confusion there. I don't think I'm taking us off track if I ask it along these lines, because this this hones in on desires again. We I think there's a lot of confusion surrounding prayer, Nathan, because people look at it as a way to get what you want from God. And
That does not seem to be the the overwhelming case here when we actually press into these verses. And some of your hang ups here, I think, flow from that same territory, that same basic confusion, and it turns on
Nathan (16:15)
Yeah.
Cameron (16:16)
our desires.
Nathan (16:16)
Yeah. So so let me let let me loop back around to giving you some examples of what I said. Do you remember in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus is praying and he says, Father, if there's any other way what yeah.
Cameron (16:30)
Yeah.
Nathan (16:32)
That is Jesus praying and asking the Father.
And then he said, and that's not what happened. Jesus Jesus' request was not fulfilled in that, right? That's Jesus asking in prayer something that didn't happen.
Cameron (16:45)
Well he s yeah, but th but thy w but not my will, thy w thy will be done. Yes.
Nathan (16:48)
Okay, so that's that's
the that's the kicker. That's the rest of the sentence. But that's the rest of the concept that I think is happening here, too. Is that you have Jesus in Revelation 3 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens, there's a Jesus knocking reference, and if anyone hears and opens, I'll come in. you have Jesus in later in Matthew going to the fig tree and looking for figs. He was seeking figs, got to the tree and there weren't figs. And so
The the the thing of it is is that this asseek knock is not a promise, it's a principle. And and the whole thing with cursing the fig tree and the figs, like it wasn't about if if this was if that had been the if getting figs had been the point, then Jesus should have just prayed for figs.
But he was using the fig tree to make a broader point and illustration about the nation of
Cameron (17:36)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (17:37)
Israel, about the temple, about you all know the whole sermons that go around what the point that he was making. So the point wasn't the figs, it was the it was what was it that God wanted to see happen as a teaching point there. And so what what we see Jesus doing in those types of prayers and was calling us to is it's not about us trying to get God to do our will. It's about us trying to align.
our
will with what it is that God is doing and is trying to accomplish
Cameron (18:04)
Mm.
Nathan (18:05)
in the world. And so I'm asking and seeking and knocking for God to help me understand what it is that He is working and then rejoicing that He's allowing me to participate in that, not me praying for using God's power to fulfill my end. So that's where I think this i if that is the true heart of prayer, as seek knock
Then why does my why why are my prayers about or listen to your congregational prayers on a Sunday morning? Ninety percent of them are gonna be all about physical health.
And traveling and a couple who how many times is somebody going to say, Hey, I'm really wrestling with an ethical situation of treating my neighbor well, I'm making a business decision, and I want this to be honoring to the Lord. that that it it seems to me that there's a deeper call into a level of prayer here that includes our ethics and our moral posture toward our fellow humans whom God loves, that there's an invitation into thinking about this.
more deeply than simply just saying, I know the golden rule.
Cameron (19:17)
Yeah. Imagine a record scratch sound right now. Record scratch. We're really glad you're here. Thank you for being here. And thank you for listening to Thinking Out Loud. And you know what? You like what you hear. This is this is really doing something for you. You're enjoying this. Sh ha ha ha ha. But
Nathan (19:37)
What's the definition of gaslighting?
Cameron (19:40)
share, my friends. Share it. Like, share, and subscribe. Specifically.
Wouldn't it be funny if if TOL became suddenly very very well known and popular and you had us on mugs and t shirts and fridge magnets? Well, we we we might maybe we're
Nathan (19:56)
No. This I'm not even b I'm not even sold on this one.
Cameron (19:59)
we're going too far there, but do like, share, and subscribe. And thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to support us financially, you can do that by going to www.tol together.com. All right. And now the record will resume as it was as it was playing.
Nathan, here's the thing. I was just having this conversation, this kind of conversation with my son this morning. His birthday's coming up. We always have this big excursion that we do every year where we go to n an apple orchard, do a bunch of fall things, because his birthday is in, you know, is in the fall. But now we have this this hurricane that's likely going to form, hit the coast, and produce some tropical storms. And that may put a damper on the birthday plans this weekend.
And so my son was saying, well, you know, let's all we have to do is just pray that that that doesn't happen. So that gave me a fantastic opportunity to s to say, well, Dylan, if we actually look at the models of prayer that we find in the Bible, let's just take especially the Lord's Prayer. There are a lot of mod there are there's a lot of of prayer in the Bible, if you look at the Psalms and all of that. But it really has more to do with how beginning by praising and hallowing God.
in our hearts, so that's that proper posture. And then asking for just our our basic needs. But but God could could could prevent it. Yeah, he could. But in, you know, the general the general way things shake down, this this world tends to there are what what hap know, there are significant weather events and other things that transpire that may cross our whales sometimes and the universe doesn't revolve around us. I know, but we can still ask him.
But again, what are we really trying to do when we pray? Eventually we want to get to a place where we want to want what God wants, at least.
Nathan (21:56)
Okay. Well, but now that you've taken my side, I'm going to jump on your son's side for a second. Because and let me so like let let me argue against myself. Yeah, yeah, team Dillon.
Cameron (22:01)
Yes, please be the yeah. Side side team Dylan. Yeah.
Nathan (22:06)
because you do have Jesus telling the story of the persistent widow who just keeps going in prayer. You have the story
Cameron (22:11)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nathan (22:14)
of the you remember the one the guy's in bed with his family and the neighbor comes and knocks on the door and says, Get up, give me some food, knocking,
Cameron (22:16)
Yep. Knocking, knocking, knocking. Yep.
Nathan (22:19)
and the guy's like, I'm in bed and he's knocking. Okay, fine, I'll get and so he does use those levels of of
Cameron (22:25)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (22:26)
persistence as clearly in reference to how we should pray and how we should ask our father for good things. so this is not an anti-asking
podcast. It's not an it's certainly not a and and I think that sometimes God just does stuff for the sheer delight of I mean this father language in here, you though you are eve if you though you are evil know how to give good gifts, how much more so does your father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask?
Cameron (22:59)
g God loves to Yeah, loves to give you gifts. I mean if if you Yeah.
Nathan (23:00)
Yeah, so so I I would say, Dylan,
pray for it, but do
Cameron (23:05)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (23:06)
you you do so open handedly, knowing that if if the prayer is not answered in the way that you prayed it, it is not because God doesn't love you or that there's something wrong with the level of faith you have or something like that. I think that's the important follow-up there in this. Now, there's one other before I forget this, let me just throw that. There's one other slight twist in Luke. In Matthew it says
If you, though you are evil, know how to give gifts, good gifts to your children, how much more so will your father in heaven give good, give good things as implied, or gifts is implied, give good to those who ask in Luke, and that whole thing about loving your enemies, turning the other cheek, giving to everybody. and then when he gets into this section, he says, How much more so will your father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him?
And
so Luke specifically identifies the good that the Father delights in giving with the Holy Spirit. And so that's why I'm saying I think there's there's more of a relational component here than just a cold ethical syllogism. Because do we really want to act like the problem with this world is that most people don't stop to think through, if I do this thing, how will that make the other person feel? Now, that would solve a lot of problems.
But there are legitimately morally sticky and difficult situations like loving your enemies, turning the other cheek, giving to everyone who asks of you, where if you're engaged with the world and its complexity at all, I am confident you are going to run into situations where you sit back and think, I don't know what to do here.
And then you say, Lord help me, and that is a form of asking and seeking and knocking, to which He gives the Holy Spirit as a counselor, an advocate, a guide, a teacher in those in those moments. So
Cameron (24:58)
I think I'm beginning to get a clearer picture just now at the twenty five minute mark of your your real problem with the golden rule.
Nathan (25:06)
H please help me. Please help me.
Cameron (25:08)
Yes, because I I'm gonna confess, and I I'm I think I'm probably speaking for some listeners, up until this point I've thought, is this much ado about nothing? Is is Nathan stim simply taking something that's relatively straightforward and then overcomplicating it? I
Nathan (25:22)
Totally possible. Totally possible.
Cameron (25:24)
think it's I think it is still totally possible.
But I think what I'm hearing you say now is golden rule as a kind of one size fits all moral principle simply is not adequate for an a world like ours that is less than ideal. A world that will demand wisdom in certain situations that are ambiguous and gray. And so this is just if somebody ties tries to take this and run with this as a kind of skeleton key for the moral life.
That's a misreading of what Jesus is saying. That's what I think I'm that's what I think you're you're you're getting at.
Nathan (26:06)
That's absolutely correct. A as part of it, with the addition of
Even if I even if I did fully think that the Golden Rule was the fundamental principle and I know it and I believe that Jesus said it, that still does not enable me to do it.
Cameron (26:24)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (26:26)
So so this is where I would have a a more charismatic ethical vision that the teachings of Jesus are impossible without divine aid and assistance and that Christian behavior out of our own willpower is a fantasy.
Cameron (26:37)
Now you You also sound like a good Presbyterian
there. Yeah, we we we're too we're fallen and we can't we're incapable of doing the or actually you're just very Pauline. You know, the thing I want to do, I
Nathan (26:48)
Yeah, yeah.
Cameron (26:49)
don't I do not do the thing I hate, I do the very thing I hate. Yes. That makes sense too.
Nathan (26:55)
So so so I remember my third grade teacher, I remember talking to my third grade teacher about the golden rule. And and if you just put it out there as a secular principle, I'm like, okay, like it's better than but but I'm saying Jesus didn't have for for that version of it, Jesus didn't have to die and be raised in order for this to be true. Like the Holy Spirit doesn't have to be involved in so so I'm
Cameron (27:22)
There are three.
Nathan (27:23)
I'm saying there's a secular and a Christian version of this, I think.
Cameron (27:26)
Well, there was a book that came out on this a number of years ago that proves your point by Jacob Needleman, who is a philosopher. He taught at San Francisco State, I think. But it was called Why Can't We Be Good. And his his argument in the book was we all know that we need to that the golden rule, if that were operative, it would fix our society. But the problem is we can't seem to do it. We've never been able to do it. There's a basic inability to carry this out. Now he's a secular person writing about this as a kind of paradox
But we as Christians would say, right, apart from the empowerment of Jesus' Holy Spirit, we cannot in fact be pleasing to God in our behavior toward others.
Nathan (28:10)
And I think this is this is broadly speaking a l a an important reminder for anything that's written on the Sermon on the Mount is that it's it's a teaching of Jesus that can only be enabled by the power of God. So this applies to every single
Cameron (28:24)
Right. I mean he says, Therefore
you are to be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect, right? And and some people will say, Well, that's not y we're we're not gonna go down that road in this episode. Yes. There are theologies that say, Well, that's not for today, or there are some people who try to try to in some way say, Well, he didn't really mean it in the full sense. But if he did
Nathan (28:42)
It was it was about
completion and the and the father's love in f five forty eight, yeah.
Cameron (28:45)
Right. But if but
if he d if he did in fact mean it, then that brings you to the dilemma Nathan keeps highlighting. It's not just a matter of your warped desires, which you have. I mean remember Jesus is saying if if you who are evil do g right.
Nathan (29:00)
That's what I'm saying. That's yeah.
Cameron (29:02)
But it's not just that, it's also it's describing a basic inability. I mean a human being on their own strength to be perfect as as the Father in heaven is perfect. If you state it in those terms, you see the
You see the dilemma.
Nathan (29:16)
And and I think we want to say, like, there are people who do good things because that's the other end of that. He's like, you know how to give good gifts to your kids. Okay. There's that level of do to others, but then there's the kick it up a notch to what it is that God wants to see. I don't know, Cameron, that we solved anything at all. Probably my my takeaway what my what I hope that people take away from this is the amount of fun you can have thinking about scripture.
If you just slow down and ask some questions as you're going through it, like why is this verse here? And how in the world
Cameron (29:48)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (29:48)
does it fit into the rest of the passage? And maybe this has been fruitful or maybe it hasn't. I had fun kicking it around with you, but it's just a way of saying, is this here for a reason? And what is the reason this is here for? And sometimes we're going to add labels to things like the golden rule, as the as the label here that doesn't show up for sixteen hundred years. It doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that it's the golden rule.
It's a nice convention, but it becomes so familiar that perhaps it gets adopt adopted as a secular principle and we stop thinking about it in perhaps the richness of what it is that God intended for us to take from this. So the takeaway is there's a lot of room to play around here. but I think asking these questions always generates something that enables us to be more faithful as we try to figure out what it is the Lord's up to in this world and what it is that he wants of us. And then
re being reminded of the depth of his goodness toward us that he invites us into this project in the first place. So that's that's ultimately my hope.
Cameron (30:47)
And a good takeaway here for me, just as an onlooker, is y Nathan comes across a verse and has the audacity to say, also before a congregation, before he said it on the podcast, I don't understand why that I d it's taken me a while to understand this verse and why it's here. It doesn't seem to fit. And instead of just racing past it, he actually put in the work and did some digging. You know, scripture will do that to you on a pretty routine basis. I mean, I can I I mean, when I'm going through the Bible and it's not I'm not even devotionally, I will routinely come across stuff that
I just think, wait, what? That's odd. That's but odd is interesting. So look into it. And it's a yeah.
Nathan (31:25)
Yeah, and and I think it's it's it's
a it's a speed bumps are meant to slow you down, not break your shocks.
Cameron (31:31)
Yes.
Nathan (31:32)
and so there are these things that are that are thrown in there, I think, to intentionally make a slow down to ponder the the fullness of maybe what's trying to be communicated. and so we don't
Cameron (31:41)
And that investigation can be a redemptive exercise. And it can and it will and it will also just the whole process will enrich your your understanding of scripture because hey, if you're if you're taking the time to chase these chase these things down, it's more deeply imprinted upon your mind. That's just the way this works. So hey, you've been listening to Thinking Out Loud, a podcast where we think out loud about current events and Christian hope.