GTA 6, Escapism & Transcendentalism: Can Video Games Be Great Art?

Link to article referenced:

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/08/27/arts/grand-theft-auto-vi-trailer-extended-look-rockstar.html

Nathan (00:00)

Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co-host Nathan Rittenhouse.

Cameron (00:03)

And I'm your co-host, Cameron McAllister.

Nathan (00:05)

I'm I'm dropping this one on Cameron Fresh. Pretty fresh. Cameron,

Cameron (00:09)

I'm so nervous.

Nathan (00:10)

today I would like to talk to you about Grand Theft Auto Six.

Cameron (00:14)

Yeah, file under things I never thought I'd hear hear Nathan say.

Nathan (00:17)

This is going to be on artificial transcendentalism, escapism, a whole number like I don't even know what Cameron thinks or knows about Grand Theft Auto 6. I know almost n nothing. So this will be

Cameron (00:26)

Love it. Just kidding. I've never yeah. Yeah.

Nathan (00:29)

we're going to take a popular monocultural reference and destroy it in classic thinking out loud together fashion. So here's two angles that I want to come into this. And and and actually really the reason that I wanted to

talk to you about this is because I know you've been going back through the Transcendentalist reading a lot of Emerson.

Cameron (00:48)

Yeah.

Nathan (00:49)

and let me let me read you let's see which end do we want to start on this? Yes, let me let me start at the back end of an article that was appeared in the New York Times today by Christopher Byrd. He's writing you know, about the release of I I mean, is this probably the most famous video game? I mean, it was just far as far as the numbers go, it's it's phenomenal.

Cameron (01:10)

Well it's one of

the most controversial video games. Yes. It's been you know, it it's it's had its histories of being banned in history of being banned in countries. It was banned in Australia when it first came out. It came out a while ago. I mean I remember friends playing it in high school, Nathan.

Nathan (01:26)

Thir thirteen

years ago since the last release, which I'm pretty sure that all n moms in the nation thirteen years ago were appalled by the content of

Cameron (01:33)

yes.

Nathan (01:34)

Grand Theft Auto. so I would say maybe some shifting moral framework here.

Cameron (01:37)

The moral furor was r

it was very real. Yeah. I mean when we were kids, it was Mortal Kombat Three. I don't know if you remember it was a big deal

Nathan (01:46)

No, I don't.

Cameron (01:46)

that then President Bill Clinton played Mortal Mortal Kombat Three. Okay. Yeah. Well

Nathan (01:51)

At that point in my life, my family didn't even have an answering machine. So yeah.

Bill Bill Clinton not inhaling and playing Mortal Kombat three. That that was the end of it. Well,

Cameron (02:01)

World Combat Three, yeah. Edgy.

Nathan (02:04)

so all of that aside, I think most of our audience would be up and up on mainly what Grand Theft Auto is. But here's the part that struck me, and I was like, I want to talk to Cameron about this. twofold. But let me let me jump to the conclusion of this article.

And he he's talking to one of the developers, one of the people who's involved in this. And this is the last the last paragraph of an of an extended article on the Grand Theft Auto Six extended release trailer. And and this is a direct quote. And he and the and the guy says, They'll be driving down the street, the sun will hit a building in a way, and there's a song playing on the radio. There's sort of a transcendental moment there.

It's transformative. And I think that with the tools we've got now making this new game, you could have that moment on a rooftop bar or in a nightclub or on an airboat in the swamps. And so I would love to get you just to verbally process with me a little bit, Cameron, this idea of, yeah,

Cameron (03:08)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (03:09)

Grand Theft Auto is an intense game. And I mean it's known for its violence and all f manner of lawlessness. But he's like, there's room in this game.

For some transcendental moments. You're cruising down the road in your car, the sun's gleaming off a building, there's a song on the radio, and there's a transcendental moment. I submit that to you for your consideration. Is that an artificial transcendental moment, or can you actually have a transcendental moment in a video game? Channel your

Cameron (03:41)

Well

Nathan (03:42)

inner immerson here and and educate us. What is going on?

Cameron (03:46)

Yeah. Well the the really anachronistic thing that people do is they would say, Ho, what would Emerson say when he heard something like that? Well, we have absolutely no clue what he would say. Yeah. And were Emerson Yeah, were were Emerson around today,

Nathan (03:54)

No idea. But that is what I'm asking you. So I mean no

Cameron (04:00)

he would be a very different Emerson, of course. Well, I think one what's intriguing about this to me, Nathan, and I suspect that I might be a little bit more sympathetic to what's being said here than than you would. I'd love to get your raw response to that as well.

in a moment, but I think one way to frame this question is and I promise you this isn't an evasion because this has been a this has been a conversation for a long time. Can can a video game con does it could a video game constitute a work of art?

Nathan (04:36)

Well, but I mean, how is it different than a film? I mean, if you look at the the the the the the hours that are I mean, the decades,

Cameron (04:44)

Right.

Nathan (04:45)

the the amount of intentionality, the number of artists that are hired to go into production of a

Cameron (04:48)

Yeah. Yes.

Nathan (04:50)

a sequence like this, to me that's a little bit of a a mute point. I mean, it to me it seems obvious that it's a work of art. Now, whether

Cameron (04:58)

Sure. I think it I

Nathan (05:00)

or not my participation in it is a work of art, that might be a bit of a stretch, but as far as the

the

Cameron (05:07)

Okay. So

Nathan (05:07)

the the visual representation of the media, clearly, and the storytelling line and that whole bit. Now, you can decide whether or not it's good art, but or beautiful, but to me, is it art is I don't know.

Cameron (05:18)

Sure. I'm

I'm with you there. So I think clearly, yes. So then let's make the question more interesting. You said something there that was actually quite revealing. So I want to go after that in a second. But could could a video game okay, so art in the low lowercase art? Obviously, yes. Something that is wrought, something that is made, right? Yes, it's a it's a work of art. Could it be something approaching a capital A work of art? Could it be something that could stand alongside a

Grecian urn or Van

Gogh's

Nathan (05:51)

Okay.

Cameron (05:51)

Gog's Gaul's sunflowers or something. So it in theory, there, I'm also gonna say, yes, it could. There's no reason it couldn't. So for a long time, the closest analog here is film. When film came along, there were well and photography too. There were obviously these were they weren't not only were they paradigm shifting, they were technological breakthroughs as well. And so they

Nathan (06:17)

Well, this is this is as well. I mean the graphics of version six thirteen years later is going to be

Cameron (06:17)

brought to the fore this exact well that's why I'm saying it's yeah.

So this is in a similar vein, I think it really is. And there were traditionalists who objected vehemently, especially with regard to cinema. And I think cinema will be helpful to to put alongside here. There I'm not saying they're the same thing. There there are there are some some gamers out there, it's not the same thing. I know it's not the same thing. But they're both highly visual mediums. They involve and they involve moving pictures. All right.

Cinema, some of the biggest philosophical and aesthetic objections to cinema were that it was so profane, not in the sense that what it was showing you was necessarily salacious or or really transgressive, but in the sense that it was highly, highly manipulative. That you have no cho I mean, these images assault you and and just absolutely take hold of your emotions and seize them in a in a very manipulative

Nathan (07:09)

Okay, okay.

Cameron (07:10)

way. So yeah, there was

Nathan (07:11)

So th this is important. So everything that you're saying leads perfectly into the second part of the article. And this is actually in the introduction that I want to to pull in here just to package it as one of the ingredients that we need to work in the soup we're making here. So in the introduction, he goes to this extended trailer viewing at Rockstar's building in Edinburgh. It's a twenty seven minute trailer, and the lights go up, and everybody's wondering, you know, processing this in

Cameron (07:36)

Twent twenty

seven minutes? The trailer? Wow.

Nathan (07:38)

I think so, yeah. It was yeah. He well he

he was watching for twenty seven minutes like a a behind the scenes kind of somebody playing through this.

Cameron (07:45)

That's a big trailer. Okay, okay. Feature at or something?

Nathan (07:49)

but anyway, yeah, so here's the but here's the here's I'm gonna read directly from Christopher Berg. So this is the lights come on after what he's just watched for twenty seven minutes. And he says, quote, I was wrestling with the sense of elation that comes from glimpsing a work of art.

That promises to marshals one's full attention. A wave of positive emotion swept through the room, tears edging down faces.

So when you're talking about the so

Cameron (08:19)

Mm.

Nathan (08:19)

obviously he's comfortable using little A art here, but this idea of capturing one's marshaling one's full attention and then a positive wave of emotion sweeping through the room to the point of tears for some people,

Cameron (08:31)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (08:33)

that yeah, you've been to a movie theater and seen people, you know, weep in a movie theater. And but this you've been that guy. I remember

Cameron (08:39)

I've been that guy. Yeah. Yeah.

Nathan (08:43)

watching the Passion of the Christ with a with a group of high

Cameron (08:45)

Yeah.

Nathan (08:46)

school friends.

And just the dead silence and then tear like crying in the. So, yeah, those elements are in play here. But it but it it it brings me back around though to the question of it's a form of art that promises to grasp our full attention. And and and my question here is: Is our attention grasped fully in a way that connects us to reality? Or are we in a

form of art here that is pure escapism. What is the you

Cameron (09:20)

Okay. That's a good question.

Nathan (09:21)

you do you see what I'm saying? Like, is there is there a shift in the purpose of the art form here? Where hey, I come

Cameron (09:26)

Yes. Well you

Nathan (09:27)

home from a busy day at work and I want to jump into an alternative reality, which might be different than staring at

Cameron (09:33)

Mm.

Nathan (09:34)

a classic work of art that makes me think more critically about the human condition and my role in the cosmos. And

Cameron (09:40)

Okay.

Nathan (09:40)

yeah, so just just asking for a friend.

Cameron (09:43)

Yes.

boy. We're gonna have to make some yeah. We'll have to make some meaningful distinctions here. A lot of what you're talking about rev revolves around the question of reality. That's that's obviously very important to you here. No.

Nathan (09:57)

And to be fair, this isn't unique to video games. So let's set that aside. But

Cameron (10:02)

Right, which is why I brought photography and and move moving pictures, as they were once called, in as well.

So those the feelings being described that people were having, obviously the tears in their eyes and the the feeling of elation, though those are absolutely real and were clearly inspired directly by the medium of Grand Theft Auto Six. Is it six?

Nathan (10:25)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (10:26)

So when that you said something earlier, and I'm struggling to remember precisely how you how you worded it, but when you're

when you're drive you know, that that scene in particular, driving down the road, sunlight gleaming off of buildings, music on the radio, and it's a it's an intensely evocative scene.

Nathan (10:50)

Yeah, except you're not.

Cameron (10:52)

Yeah, but Nathan, I don't know that that holds much w that k that that doesn't hold much water for me personally, because that's true of almost any form of art. So I'm not really with the three musketeers.

I'm not really with Sy Silas Marner.

Nathan (11:08)

But you're not pretending to

be them. You're not controlling them in the art form.

Cameron (11:13)

I don't know. I'm not sure I agree there either. Some people do

Nathan (11:16)

Okay.

Cameron (11:16)

identify very strongly with a particular character. It's so I remember reading Catcher in the Rye as a high school student and being a very typical adolescent male. I identified with Holden Caulfield. It it didn't help that I had a lot of teachers who said you need to read Catch this is the first serious book I read because it was vanity that drove me to it, because I had several teachers say, You need to read Holden Caulfield. You are Holden Caulfield. Then I read it and I thought, What the heck do you what is that supposed to mean?

Nathan (11:39)

Yeah, y I that that one is pretty on the nose. That

one is a little on the nose for for young Cameron.

Cameron (11:45)

Yeah,

I was like, come on. But so I do think there so identifications are is is is happening with with a lot of art. It's it's it's happening with a lot of movies. I mean, a lot of people watch movies and they identify with the hero, right? And they s they see themselves

in that that role.

Nathan (11:59)

But y

Yeah, but it's mm I have to think through that. If if I I Yeah, okay.

Cameron (12:04)

And I'm not sure escapism is is let me say something else and then respond to this, Nathan, because

you I'm not sure escapism is necessarily is inherently bad. Okay. Yeah, just putting that out there. It can be, of course, but I don't think it's inherently bad.

Nathan (12:13)

I don't think so either. yeah. It it it can be a form of deep rest.

I mean it it can but it can also be yeah, th i it there's it can be fun, it can be educational, it can

Cameron (12:23)

It can also be fun. I think it's yeah.

Nathan (12:26)

be y so there there's a lot there. All that being said by two guys who I'm pretty sure have never played and will never play Grand Theft Auto. Is that fair? I mean so we're the worst

Cameron (12:32)

No. Never have yet never.

Nathan (12:34)

ones to be commenting on this and trying to give

Cameron (12:37)

But I'm a fan of escapism. I mean, I love so I for me, I guess the closest would be I I absolutely love movies. And I like I

Nathan (12:45)

Okay, but

Cameron (12:46)

I I like really important movies, sure, but I also love Step Brothers. Okay. I'm just gonna say I'm just gonna say that. For

Nathan (12:49)

Yeah.

Cameron (12:51)

me, that comedy ages like wine. Hey, Cameron is not recommending that you go watch Step Brothers immediately. Well, Cameron told me to watch this and it's very vulgar and crass. I no, I didn't, okay? But I like escape.

Nathan (13:01)

And no nor

n nor are we singing the praises of Grand Theft Auto. What we're what we're working through here, I think, Cameron, that seems to me different in video games is our concept of our sense of agency in engaging with an art form. So you can read Capture Catcher in the Rye and and follow along with the story as it's told. But you aren't you don't have a sense of agency in the sense that you're controlling the character through

Cameron (13:30)

I'm not turning the wheel

in the car, yeah. Yeah.

Nathan (13:31)

You're not turning the wheel and building yeah. And

so for me, this is just like you used the word realism earlier. This is why why no video game has ever had any real allure to me at all. is it all seems heavily a heavily mediated experience to the point that it doesn't seem like an experience. So I it I it it's been hard for me to grapple with somebody who very much enjoys and feels comfortable working through the physical world.

It it feels restrictive and limited and and very narrow. And I mean that won't always be

Cameron (14:04)

Yeah.

Nathan (14:05)

the case as the technology develops. But there

Cameron (14:09)

Well,

Nathan (14:09)

there is something we there is something different between

Cameron (14:12)

I'm gonna

Nathan (14:12)

a digital sunset and the actual sunset and my sense of participation in it. But maybe I say that because I live at a beautiful place where I can go outside and watch the sunset. And I don't live in the inner cubicle of an eighth floor apartment, and the only sunset I see is cruising in my fake car in my fake world.

Down a fake street.

Cameron (14:30)

No, well, I don't think anybody would dispute the fact that a a real sunset, at least most people wouldn't dispute the fact that a real sunset is superior to some s sort of synthetic experience. But I again when you're having an aesthetic experience with a representational sunset, whether you know, whether we're talking about paintings or whether we're talking about a poem representing it, or the effects of sunlight gleaming off buildings that have never been captured this well in a video game, I think those are still

valid

real experiences in the sense that they're i they're elicited eliciting, I want to say genuine emotions.

Nathan (15:07)

So wait, Art,

do you consider all aesthetic reactions to be transcendental?

Cameron (15:12)

Well, it would it would very much depend on what you mean by transcendental. Yes.

Nathan (15:15)

Well, so I think this is working us back to maybe

Cameron (15:18)

Yes.

Nathan (15:19)

maybe where some of your pre like we can't say what would Emerson say, but can you give us a snapshot of like what we think people are meaning when they say the word transcendental?

Cameron (15:28)

Well, usually what what people mean would be something that takes us beyond our present circumstances. I'm a big fan of using really modest descriptions so that

Nathan (15:37)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (15:38)

I don't it's not too highfalutin. So a transcend transcendental or tran so I'll talk about the transcendentals for just a second in a I'll I'll speak to that in just a moment, but because we probably need to make a bit of a distinction between transcendent and transcendental.

Nathan (15:54)

Yeah, that'd be good.

Cameron (15:56)

There are there's also a new age dimension here for some of this, and that that can complicate matters a little bit. I don't think it needs to. But so let's transcendent would just mean anything that takes you beyond your present circumstances. And that could be a piece of music, it could be a sunset, or it could be a particular moment in a film. And a gleam of sunlight on an object, it's often something very, very specific.

Nathan (16:21)

Well,

so Jacob Beam may be considered the father of modern transcendentalism, we're talking fifteenth century here, his whole thing got kicked off with a a reflection of light out of the curvature of a spoon.

Cameron (16:32)

Exactly. Exactly. And film and well film or or moving picture stuff, so video games too, is particularly adept at doing that. If it now it's not if it's done it it it it needs to have a degree of subtlety and and real skill and craftsmanship to to do it well and to do it in a non manipulative fashion, I s but I suspect you'll you'll

Fasten on the non-manipulative word there and w we need to talk about that because that I think that is really important. But yeah, it's very adept at doing that. So there's transcendent, just something that takes you beyond your present circumstances, okay? To some some sort of beyond, right? Transcendentals have to do with, on the one hand, the the the true, the good, the beautiful. So really something that is the it is a kind of orientation. If you're talking to the Greeks.

about this. There's yeah, that Plato is ultimately going to say that the good life ought to be and Aristotle will say this too, ought to be one that is oriented toward the good, the true, the good, the beautiful. And the ultimate

Nathan (17:40)

Okay.

Cameron (17:41)

expression of that is to be is the contemplative life. They both have some Plato in particular has some very complicated things to say about the arts. It's complicated because he is himself a supreme artist. But anyway, so there's

There's

that transcendentalism also gets mixed up with with some lines of new age thinking. I'm just naming I'm just putting that out there just to say that that's a factor here. I don't that doesn't really and so what that would mean then, Nathan, and you get some of this with Emerson. Emerson is is big on talking about the spark of divinity within you. You've if you've ever read Emerson,

Nathan (18:21)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (18:21)

you'll s he'll say things like, and I'm gonna butcher the quote, his quotes are always beautiful.

Part

of why he he is so seductive to people. But he'll say if if you hear the word God and something inside of you sings and responds well to that, it's the that's the God inside of you or the spark of divinity within you that is responding to it's the God within responding to the God without. That's that is his word. Yeah. So that that comes in here too. Yeah.

Nathan (18:44)

Yeah, okay. Great. Okay,

that comes in here. So now let's say that you're pretending to have just shot a bunch of cops, robbed a store, stolen a car, and now you're cruising down the street watching the sunset reflect off a building, listening to the radio. So

Cameron (18:57)

Well, when you put it that way, Nathan, I mean

Nathan (18:59)

let's let's talk about the good, the true, and the beautiful here.

Cameron (19:01)

Uhhuh. Yeah.

Nathan (19:02)

that's that's the God within, you know, responding to the God without. So there there is a hyper individualistic

The divine spark of our inherent desire to do whatever we want without consequence

Cameron (19:17)

Yeah.

Nathan (19:18)

is is on display fully in

Cameron (19:20)

Yes.

Nathan (19:21)

and in an anarchy that will make billions of dollars being sold to people who wish to play in that reality. That that's that's zooming back out past why your

Cameron (19:31)

Mm mm. Mm.

Nathan (19:33)

mom was freaked out about this 13 years ago. But but

Cameron (19:35)

Well

Nathan (19:36)

at the core of it, that is there.

Cameron (19:38)

Okay, let

me bring in a very American type of popular art that can be very profound, but it's deeply American. And that is the story that romanticizes criminals. So it's and it's

Nathan (19:53)

Mm, mm-hmm.

Cameron (19:54)

deeply and it's nihilistic to the core. The supreme example of this, what really lit the blue torch paper is Francis Ford Coppola's The Godfather. Now that's ba it's based on Mario Puzo's.

Book, but that film adaptation did something revolutionary. And getting the film made was was itself a real nightmare because this was the first this we're used to this now, Nathan, the trope of the sympathetic portrayal of the criminal. But this was

Nathan (20:23)

yeah.

Cameron (20:23)

and and we have, we have, I mean, there is a precedent for it. You have Robin Hood, you can point to some of this, but never before had we had we seen captured quite like this an unbelievably human.

Sympathetic portrayal of gangsters. And the the most powerful part of that whole movie is an amazing scene of juxtaposition. It's so famous. It's taught in film schools, of course. But you have you have a ceremony taking place in the Catholic Church. That's the confirmation of Michael Corleone. As the confirmation, it's juxtaposed with executions, mob style executions that are happening. So you'll hear the priest priest say, Do you renounce Satan in all his guises?

Bang, somebody just got shot in the head. I do renounce him. You know, and it is chilling and unbelievably powerful. But ever since and so it's not too far from that that you get, you know, Tony Soprano and, you know, breaking bad. I mean, this is old hat now. But Grand Theft Auto is in that a little I mean, am I saying it's completely comparable to to these really high achievements and dramatic arts? I don't I don't know if it is, but it's in that that general vein.

And we have a lot of time for it in America, for better or for worse. But there are some very troubling elements in that. Yeah, I'll stop there.

Nathan (21:47)

I

that might just be okay, this is

This is the world we live in. The the let's throw let's go back around to you remember David Foster Wallace's thing about TV, that you don't see horrific things on TV, but T V shows you the things you want to see.

What are the what are the forms of 'cause we we we made a positive statement about escapism. We've made some comments on realism. We've made some maybe disagreements, who knows, on on what counts as transcendental experiences.

How do we how do you want to think about this in a in a Christian sense of whatever is good, whatever is lovely, what is pure, think on these things, set your mind on things above where Christ is seated. How do you and so we can ask for general and personal advice here on thinking about where we set our mind and like what are the limits of so this is this is not like Catholic nun shaking a ruler at you.

about to crack your knuckles kind of thing. But it's it is to think thoughtfully for a moment here about w can't can we use the phrase what are healthy forms of escapism? Are there limits? Are there boundaries? What are the things in which or what might be some signs that it's an unhealthy form of escapism?

Cameron (23:10)

Sure. Yeah.

Nathan (23:12)

What would be how would we get started on that?

Cameron (23:16)

Well,

whatever's true, whatever's good, whatever's noble, whatever's beautiful. A lot of people love to you're not doing this, but a lot of people do like to pick up their ruler and point to that verse and say, look at look at look what this sets off limits. But we also have to temper that. And I'm not the I'm not the only person saying this. A lot of critics and and and Christian artists have pointed this out. But we do also live in a fallen world. And to ignore all of the now, that doesn't mean we dive into sewage.

Okay, so hear me carefully.

Nathan (23:45)

Yeah.

Cameron (23:46)

But it also means that serious art, there is room in serious art for tragedy. There is room for a confrontation of the world's darkness. That doesn't mean everybody needs to to go traipsing into that territory, but you need to make room for that. So that's real. The other thing is I think a lot of Paul's statement, you know, all things are are lawful, but not all things are are wise. There are gonna be different things.

Nathan (24:11)

Mm. Permissible but

not beneficial, some translations.

Cameron (24:13)

Yes, right, yeah, right.

Yeah, I got it right. Yeah, got it wrong there. Not all things are are are permissible, but not all things are wise. So that applies here because people have different thresholds. So I always say if something troubles your conscience, that ought to give you pause and you really need to pray through it, think through it, probably talk to people about it. Preferably people more spiritually mature than you. They exist, I promise you. yeah. Do it. Hot take.

Nathan (24:36)

Can I say something controversial here? so I

agree with you 100% that if something troubles your conscience, but there's also room, biblically speaking, that if you're engaged in something that troubles somebody else's conscience, that beyond the

Cameron (24:48)

Hmm. Yeah.

Nathan (24:50)

individualistic read of my own personal

Cameron (24:55)

Yeah.

Nathan (24:56)

yeah, virtue, that if there are things that you can let go of because it's a stumbling block to somebody else, that there's there's wisdom in that too. So

Cameron (25:06)

Yeah. I think Paul has some has a little something something to say about that.

Nathan (25:07)

Just just just yeah, just

just sticking that in there as we go by on conscientiousness being our guide.

Cameron (25:15)

Yes,

I I think so absolutely. I I affirm that, agree.

Nathan (25:20)

Yeah, we're we're in agreement. We're not disagreeing.

Cameron (25:22)

We're agree. So you asked about so let me bring in the ancient Greeks again here because they're just they're foundational and they're helpful. They kept famously obscenity, as they called it, offstage.

They had very interesting reasons for doing so. Was that because well, they were just a more prudish society and people weren't that acquainted with violence and bloodshed and sex in in ancient Greece? No.

Nathan (25:45)

Yeah, probably not.

Cameron (25:49)

No, I'm I'm afraid not. Male concubines, temple prostitutes, bloodshed and warfare. I mean

Nathan (25:51)

I all

all Greek and Roman mythology

Cameron (25:57)

Right. Yeah.

Have you have you read Ovid? So pretty much.

Nathan (26:01)

Yeah, that's a what what do they call that? A seven hundred page rape scene. there

there's a bedtime story for your kids.

Cameron (26:07)

But on stage famously, they would keep the the really high accomplishments in drama would keep the obscenity off stage. So the fa the most famous example I can point to would be Oedipus gouging his eyes out. So he appear he he goes off stage, he appears on stage again and there's you know, it depended on how they they all wore their theater masks so people could see from a great distance in the arena, but you know, there would be probably a little bit blood of blood trickling out from the eye sockets, but it wouldn't be a big gory scene. Why?

The main reason would be they don't want to manipulate the audience. They want and they don't want if the the there's a specific line that Aristotle talks about in his poetics. And his poetics, by the way, some of you will know this, wasn't it's not a finished piece. It's notes, probably lecture notes, is what scholars believe. So it's a little bit incomplete, but part of but what it has is very profound. But basically it says if you

overemphasize the he uses the word monstrosity. If you do that, it basically just becomes a big distraction. It becomes all about gouged out eyes and not the actual meaning behind the suffering for Oedipus.

Nathan (27:16)

So

so but I think that's the the tricky thing there on the art form of that is that there is an educational element to this. And so I I guess there would be a way in which some forms of escapism are the equivalent of rolling the golden apple to beat the swiftest person in the race, that it is just a shiny distraction that does impede humanity from and so so I don't know what are the

To me, I want to hold a capital a art.

distinct from a lowercase A art and th that there is something in instructive about the the growth and the character that has formed within me as I engage this thing that helps me embrace reality at a deeper level. Am I asking it

Cameron (28:01)

Okay. I like that.

No, so hear me carefully, by the way. I am not saying Grand Theft Auto Six is Capital A art. I'm saying in theory it is possible for a video game to be capital A art. I I do think in theory that that's true. I've never and I'm I'm not saying it's not. I don't know. I've I haven't seen it. I don't play it. Right.

Nathan (28:16)

We we we are we are ignoramuses to the nth degree when it comes to yeah.

Cameron (28:21)

And I'm not playing it, so I I don't I don't know. I'm speaking theory. But I think what you're saying is is helpful here, Nathan. So you are talking about

Is there room? So let me throw throw a fra phrase out there. It's very pop that that that everybody will know. Art for art's sake. People will use that sometimes. I'm not and most well, I'm not sure art for art's sake works as a formula because I think if we're going to take that's right.

Nathan (28:49)

'Cause you've read Waltersdorf. That's the

Cameron (28:53)

If yeah, Nick Nick Waltersdorf has helped me. I can call him Nick because he's my pal. Just kidding. But I think if if you're taking a holistic view of art.

And I I just I'm aware that I'm I'm just to talk about art is to step through a minefield, by the way, because we know more about art than we can say. We know more about beauty than

Nathan (29:12)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Cameron (29:13)

we can say. And I'm not saying I'm everybody. You don't have to st study art criticism. You you really do. So but it's hard to put into words. You're talking about an ethical dimension of a work of art, which is absolutely real. So

Nathan (29:28)

Well the the because

'cause I'm developing in my mind a broader parenting theory and then one for myself, is that our forms of play are actual practice for reality.

And and what and what we train

Cameron (29:42)

That's Yes.

Nathan (29:44)

to be visions of the good and the beautiful, even if it's quote unquote

Cameron (29:47)

Okay.

Nathan (29:48)

pretend, do some in some sh they have to in some way shape and form us. So so if I'm watching something gory in a Greek tragedy, I'm learning something about the nature of humanity and the world in which I live, there

Cameron (29:59)

Yes.

Nathan (30:00)

could be a way in which I could say that watching the trailer to Grand Theft Auto Six and recognizing the multi billion dollar industry that this is teaches me something meaningful about the desires of the humans and the world around me, but it does seem different.

Somehow here.

Cameron (30:13)

Well, and again, back to the ancient Greeks, so and back to poetics. Remember the front you you probably remember the term catharsis? Controversial because people really are are argue till they're blue in the face about what precisely he means by that. So it is, but he's he's speaking about

Nathan (30:31)

Well, it's used in the New Testament as well. So

Cameron (30:35)

sp specifically works of art that are tragedy, so that are troubling. So why would we

The question is the the great question is why would we indulge in a work of art that brings us pain, inspires in us emotions of sadness or d even despair?

Nathan (30:50)

the crucifixion does for sure. But anyway.

Cameron (30:52)

Yes, of course. So why would w w how is that beneficial to us? Aristotle says, well, it it purges harmful emotions. A. D. Nuttall, who is a there's a there's a there's a British name, if ever there was one. Nuttall. Professor Nuttall wrote a a great

Little book called Why Does Tragedy Give Pleasure? And it really is worth reading. But his conclusion, I think it's really intriguing. I'm not sure it t entirely works, but there's something here. His his theory is that painful works of art or works of art that confront the dark side of reality, he really hasn't minded tragedy, but you could apply it more broadly to viol so violent video games, violent movies, horror movies, even. Although he has a line in there about I have no idea what's wrong with people who like horror movies, which is kind of funny. But he says

Nathan (31:35)

Yeah.

Cameron (31:36)

it's pr it's it's practice for dying.

Nathan (31:39)

Okay. So it is a it's a pretending that's a practice.

Cameron (31:42)

It's a pretending that's a practice. It's getting you ready to face your mortality. I think I think that's I do think he's parti partially right. I think there's really something there. So yeah, what works of art are what for better or for worse, they are morally instructive. I think that's part of what you're getting at, Nathan. And I think another question that you would that you would you're pro well, a question that arises from what you're saying is are there moral flaws in a work of art that are also aesthetic flaws? And I would say

Nathan (32:10)

Hmm.

Cameron (32:10)

yes.

I think yes. I th now I I don't and I don't think that turns you into a school marm because I can I have defended some fairly challenging works of art on moral grounds. So I have a lot of room for the my my conception

Nathan (32:25)

Yeah, you yeah, that's right. Yeah.

Cameron (32:26)

there is roomy, but if if there is a real moral flaw in said work of art, does it detract from the overall aesthetic quality of it? Yes, I think it does.

Nathan (32:40)

Okay, and

and the forms of art that we engage with do say something about us. So if you walk into somebody's

Cameron (32:46)

Yes.

Nathan (32:47)

house and you look at the art on the wall, they they put that there because it communicate I mean, I I I get

Cameron (32:54)

Okay. So

Nathan (32:54)

Cameron, I'm saying this to you with a big clown on the wall behind you, but the

Cameron (32:57)

Well,

I have I have I have some I have a hot take on art on the wall.

Nathan (33:01)

Okay. May may maybe I'm reading too much into it. Give me your give me the hot take.

Cameron (33:05)

No, my hot take is most people if you look at the art on their walls, it's just and it just means th th it's just escapism. It's usually sentimental kitsch or escapism of some kind. This is why people don't invite me to their house. Well yeah. Norman Rockwell

Nathan (33:19)

Yeah. We will judge you for your art in the books you have on your shelf.

Cameron (33:22)

or pretty landscapes or j just things that are soothing. Now again, Cameron, what the heck is wrong with you?

Nathan (33:27)

But you're pro escapism.

Cameron (33:29)

What?

Nathan (33:30)

You you you don't mind escapism. You said so. Yeah. You don't think

Cameron (33:31)

No, I don't mind escapism, but I I well

Nathan (33:34)

it's communicating something thoughtful about the inhabitant of the house?

Cameron (33:38)

There's escapism and there's escapism. So if I have never had a lot of time for sanitized visions of reality. Okay, Cameron. Do you have pictures, gory pictures of the crucifixion all over your house? Well, no. You know, I I am still a normal human being, but I do want I mean, I do have some kind of Christian style art and icons that are somewhat ghoulish in their depiction of of the of the crucifixion. Yeah, I do have a sad clown.

behind me, not because I think clowns are sinister and scary, but because I think there's something deeply moving about a clown, because I think a clown is somewhat representative of us as persons. I think we're all a bit clownish. And I think we all do a lot to entertain and try to amuse people and then retreat behind the scenes and hang our heads and feel lesser for it. So I think that

Nathan (34:29)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (34:30)

so the picture behind me I is is moving to me on a personal level. And I think there's a little bit more depth to it than just some soothing

Bland landscape.

Nathan (34:38)

Yeah. And

and the picture I have is of an old tired man giving thanks for a simple bowl of soup that came from

Cameron (34:45)

I like that picture a lot. I've yeah.

Nathan (34:46)

my grandparents' house was being thrown out when they moved to the nursing home. So it there's there's a story and a a vision that I aspire to of profound gratitude over simple things. So

Cameron (34:57)

Yes.

Nathan (34:58)

it's I mean, I guess it's it's not really that nice of a picture artistically at all. But but what I'm saying here is that both of us can say, Hey, here's a picture in the background of the video we're recording right now.

And our engagement with us does explain something about the way in which we see the world and ourselves in it. So all that to say is that, you know, and you and you're you're unique in this camera because you're highly nuanced and thoughtful in the in the wide range of art forms that you engage with. But I would say for the listener, and as a reminder to myself, and and this goes from video games to wall hangings, is that the form of art that you engage with and or pay for

Patronize, does say something about who you are and what you aspire to, even if it's just escapism. So I I'm not putting that out there as again, I'm not whacking anybody's knuckles with a ruler, but let's not be naive and think that these things don't shape and form us and that they don't say something about our actual desires and something about the human heart and what we wish for.

Cameron (36:04)

Well said. Well, I think we're gonna have an interesting mail day after this one.

Nathan (36:11)

Emerson meets Grand Theft Auto Six. Woo!

Cameron (36:13)

Yes,

I I can already feel when I meet some of you as we as we do from time to time, which is always a joy and a delight, I can already hear the snarky comments about pictures in the house in the homes that are gonna come my way. I walked right It's yes, it's yeah nice. All

Nathan (36:24)

Yeah. Somebody's gonna run over us with our fake car. man.

Cameron (36:29)

right, well you've been listening to Think Out Thinking Out Loud, if I could if I can actually speak. Thinking Out Loud, it's a podcast where we talk about what do we we think out loud. We think out loud about

Nathan (36:36)

No, it's where we think out loud.

Cameron (36:40)

current events and Christian hope.

Sheesh. If you can pardon all of that, and you have it in your heart to to pardon that and you like what we're doing by some miracle, and you're not offended by what I said about the paintings on your wall, hey, like, share, and subscribe. Please do and tell and tell people how much we annoyed you, you know, and then and then more people can talk and get the conversation going. And if you would like to support us financially by an even greater miracle, you can do that by going to www.t-o-l together.com