Why Modern Readers Misunderstand the Bible: Atheism, Scripture and Hermeneutics

Cameron (00:00.686)

Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co host, Cameron McAllister.

Nathan (00:04.5)

And I'm your co host, Nathan Rittenhouse.

Cameron (00:06.53)

I came across an article in which the aut author says reading the Bible is turning me into an atheist. It is a an attention grabbing title for the article. This is on Three Quirks Daily, which is worth visiting every now and then. But I don't think this article is very good, but I did think it was worth I I th I thought it was worth discussing it. So a brief summary of the article. A guy decided to read the Bible in

basically from front to back. So starting in Genesis and just just read all the way through. Has not made it out of the the old testament yet, but is getting bogged down in books like Leviticus. It's getting tripped up by genealogies. But also there are a couple of sentences in the article that are fairly revealing. Things like it just seems like a bunch of fairy tales cooked up by people trying to justify tribal warfare.

That's not an exact quote, but that's pretty dang close. So these are the kinds of of quotes that you're finding. And to be fair, these are quotes that give away a real lack of understanding on the part of the reader. So I thought we might pause and talk about that a little bit. And there are plenty of people, of course, who re-read the Bible and and often don't like what they encounter.

Nathan (01:26.689)

Yeah, whoa.

Cameron (01:33.1)

But I thought it would be worth just discussing this a little bit.

Nathan (01:37.188)

And just to clarify on the title, I don't think this is somebody who is writing from a place of deep faith, then started reading the Bible, and that's turning them into an atheist. So the title is a little tongue in cheek here. I don't, I don't think there was any expectation of any religious conviction or posture that was going to be changed by this exercise. Now, I think he, and if you take his word for it, is reading it apathetically but open mindedly and just saying, hey, I haven't had the this spiritual epiphany yet, as I'm reading through all the baguats and the

whatnot going on and all the rules about you guys know what's in the old testament. and he admits that he hasn't made it to the New Testament. So he's saying, you know, maybe there's there's hope to pull that out in the end there. But then he lists all the other interesting things that he's reading about sci fi and time travel and AI developments and the evolution of the human brain and, you know, and so in in I guess the the broader point camera might be in light of all the other interesting things out there that you could spend your time reading and studying, this seems a little

Cameron (02:17.677)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (02:36.297)

mundane and hard to get as you're trudging through it.

Cameron (02:41.175)

Well, if I could summarize his article in one sentence, it would be this the Bible doesn't cater to my modern sensibilities.

Which is why I think his his view is deeply deficient. So expecting an ancient text to behave like a current text is kind of basically how you don't read 101. When it comes to any if you read Homer like that, if you read Middlemarch like that, it's it's just a a basic rule of reading. So the reason I think that's significant to bring in here, Nathan, is I think some peop people who are non-Christians might think, well

Nathan and Cameron are just really offended by what they what this guy is saying because this is the Bible is their sacred text. But for those of us who don't buy into that, it's not a sacred text. So why would we treat it in a special way? And the argument I'm making doesn't doesn't include doesn't have to include that assumption at all. You don't have to view the Bible as a sacred text to see this as a very silly, silly argument. Yeah, go ahead.

Nathan (03:39.923)

Mm. But no, let's let's hang on, let's play devil's advocate here.

Nathan (03:48.036)

True, but I think in the same way that you have a lot of Muslims who would be like the Quran is the most beautiful book ever. And then you're like, have you ever sat down and tried to read any of the surahs? like if you're starting with a presupposition that it is beautiful, then oftentimes it is. Or if you're starting with a presupposition that the Bible is the word of God, then that's how you read it. If you're starting with the fact that it's not, there are some interesting ways in which you would start reading and it would make no sense whatsoever.

Cameron (04:06.005)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (04:16.619)

and not seem to be valuable. So there is a sense here, Cameron, in which intent precedes content, for sure, Bible or any other text or document that people are engaging with. So just wanted to put that out there to to be fair about, yeah, your your presuppositions coming into this do matter a lot.

Cameron (04:33.773)

Of course, but by that same token, if you approach the Quran and you expect it to basically read like something some a twentieth twenty first century or twentieth century religious text, or if you expect it to cater to your own modern Western sensibilities, we would rightfully say that's very silly. Of course it's not. Same same same if you read the Bhagavad Gita or dip into any other ancient text. So again

Nathan (04:55.446)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (05:03.745)

The basic rule here is reading expecting an ancient text to cater to your modern sensibilities or late modern sensibilities is silly. And I'm not I don't I think if the author were listening in and my if by chance somebody sends this podcast to him, I think he would object and say, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm not expecting it to behave like a 21st century, you know, text, or I'm not expecting it to cater to my modern sensibilities.

I just have always been told that it's very beautiful and profound, and I'm not finding any of that. So back off with this, but my reply would be, yeah, but when you cash that out, you're essentially saying it fails to achieve a level of relevance that you recognize today and it fails to cater to your twenty first century.

Nathan (05:51.352)

Yeah, but so does so does studying science fiction and time travel. So nah it's like i can we really say that one of those is less practical?

Cameron (06:01.313)

Well, no, interestingly enough, yeah, but look at that list, Nathan. All of those are very current cutting edge subjects. So these are all really interesting to me. Wow, really? No, no, they're all very current. I mean, AI revolution stuff and all of that. Well well, I find interestingly, I don't find scripture relevant, but I find all of these relevant. Well, of course, Sherlock. Those are all those are all current events, essentially. So

Nathan (06:08.299)

Yeah, but as far as the practic practical application of them.

Cameron (06:30.761)

Th this is this is this is why yeah, so there's that. We need we can move on from this particular but that's it's this is a kind of article that you see a lot of and I just want to 'cause it it you can seem to make a big sacrilegious splash by saying I went to said holy book and not only did it not do its work on me, it actively drove me into irreligion.

Nathan (06:31.074)

Yeah, there's that.

Nathan (06:36.129)

Well let me let me give you

Nathan (06:57.987)

Chuckle, chuckle, move on. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was gonna say, the there's a there was a better attempt at this, and I can like offhandedly sort of recommend A.J. Jacobs' book. I think it came out in 2007, The Year of Living Biblically. I don't know if you ever run across this. Do you remember that? so not a religious believer, but he's like, I'm going to live out the Bible literally. interestingly enough, he only does it with the old testament. and

Cameron (06:58.241)

Yeah, it just it's I just I'm not buying it. Sorry, go ahead.

Cameron (07:14.357)

yes. I remember this.

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (07:27.593)

It is a rather hilariously written book. I mean, he he's a he's a funny writer, and by the time you get down to him trying to figure out how to stone gay people in New York City by tossing pebbles at people and but then thinking like I don't want to actually hit anybody, but does this fulfill the biblical command? I mean, so there's an entertaining element of him wallowing in it, but the whole thing is totally missing the point of the of the purpose and what scripture is actually up to and any understanding of and so

It's one of those like you almost feel reading the book is a chuckle, but you're like, No, this is not at all what the Bible is or what it's intended for. and in that sense, also as a Christian, I'm gonna be like, actually, you skipped the entire part that I would look at as my ethical foundation and framework rooted in the character of God revealed through Christ. So set that aside for a second. But but it is that attempt of saying, what do you do if you engage with something sacred in a non

sacramental or sacred way. And it it kind of puts in mind a time when we were little, my my youngest brother, I don't know, maybe it was seven or eight at the time, asked my grandpa, what happens if somebody gets baptized, but they didn't really believe? They're just faking it or they're just doing it because it's what's expected of them. What happens to that person? And grandpa said, Well, they get wet.

Cameron (08:27.596)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Nathan (08:51.781)

and and so there there's a similar thing here of like, what if you pick up, you know, any ancient text or scriptural thing and you're not looking at it for actually any real insight or spiritual development or maturity, or you come to scripture and you're just looking at it. I mean, so you could pick up an anthology of important Western text and it might have everything from Locke and Rousseau, and then maybe it'll have a snippet out of Exodus and Moses and the you know the revelation of the Ten Commandments.

Cameron (09:15.426)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Nathan (09:21.463)

But you're reading it just as an academic look and see what's what's neat and interesting in here that's been formative for Western civilization.

Yeah, okay.

Cameron (09:36.409)

Well, this is also let's say a few words. I'm gonna say a few words about this and then have you comment or amplify or contradict. Ooh, no, I'm just kidding. But let me put it this way and then expand on it. Christianity is understood by its end. And I mean end not only in terms of

the conclusion of a story, but also end in terms of its purpose and its telos. So the end of the scriptural story is Jesus Christ and the cross and the resurrection. That furnishes you with the that's the skeleton key to all of Scripture. We understand everything in light of the cross, including the Old Testament.

The cross is the key that unlocks the whole book in all of it. So if you are this is why this is relevant to this particular article. If you are a non religious person, a little bit intellectually curious, my counsel, if you were talking to me, not that this this guy is listening to me and probably wouldn't listen to me if he's heard any of what I've said about his article, but if you if I were to give him advice, I would say, Don't I would start with the book of John.

There there's a r there is a reason a lot of people say start with the Gospel of John. I wouldn't say start with Genesis necessarily. There's nothing wrong with reading the Bi Bible chronologically, but if you're if you're a person coming with little to no knowledge, it can be a very interesting ride if you do that. But yeah, so Nathan Nathan has to interject here. I'll pause.

Nathan (11:18.467)

Well well o so here's 'cause I think there are some Christians that sometimes say start at Genesis. I th I th I think the idea of start at Genesis makes sense because I I yeah, i I wouldn't either, but here's why I think people do it. Is that it seems like you're starting at the beginning when you start with Genesis one. However, if you read John first, you reck you you recognize that Genesis one isn't chronologically the beginning of

Cameron (11:26.08)

I I absolutely would not say that, but yeah.

Cameron (11:35.022)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (11:39.672)

Seems. Yeah.

Nathan (11:47.82)

Of the biblical narrative. It it precedes creation with the nature of who Christ is. And so the problem with starting at Genesis one isn't that you're starting at the beginning and it gets confusing. It's that you didn't start at the beginning, you didn't go far enough back to properly contextualize what's happening here. Because I think, Cameron, can we honestly say that if we weren't Christians, we would write a similar article about the Old Testament?

Cameron (12:15.234)

Hm. Yeah.

Nathan (12:18.829)

So yeah, keep that in the back of your mind as you're thinking through this, fellow believer.

Cameron (12:22.68)

Yeah.

Yes. We want to understand, well, if if we're if we're looking for w if we look at the Old Testament and we see it in light of the cross, in light of Jesus, it becomes a whole lot less enigmatic. So I think that's why we would that's why we would say that. Nathan, I wanna change course here for just a second. We can come back to that, of course, if if need be.

But I want to throw out a quote from Stanley Hower Wass, which will speak for itself. It's a teaching tool. He is deliberately overstating the case, but he says this the worst thing the church ever did was give the Bible to the common people.

Nathan (13:10.977)

Dun dun dun.

Cameron (13:12.342)

Right. So let's let's talk about that for a moment.

Nathan (13:43.013)

let's talk about it for a little bit. so Cameron, here's here's where you would get initial pushback and then we'll push back on the pushback. Because there are probably a a lifetime's worth of testimonies of people who hey, I was at a you know difficult time in life. I was in a hotel room, sad and lonely, and opened the drawer.

Cameron (13:43.598)

Do you want me to talk a little bit and then and then kick it to you?

Nathan (14:11.542)

And pulled out the Gideon's Bible that's there. And God really met me as I engaged Scripture. all sorts of people who have had that experience of engaging Scripture and God speaking to them through it in a in a life-transformative way. And so we are not here saying that God can't use this in a meaningful way to speak to us when the time comes when we are open.

And willing to understand and receive and conform our lives to what it is that God might be revealing to us. You threw out the Hauervoss quote, which with a little bit of shock factor to it. Let me give you a Martin Lloyd Jones quote that parallels it. So we'll just dig the hole a little deeper and then let's see if we can walk out of this together. Martin Lloyd Jones, I don't think anybody would doubt the h his credentials or his orthodoxy as just kind of a giant in the in the preaching evangelical.

theological space. Stanley Howard Voss, he's a little bit out there on the fringes sometimes. So you know, people might take him with a grain of salt, but I think if we're thinking, you know, Martin Lloyd Jones. And I'm reading here from his book, The Studies on the Sermon on the Mount, which was a sermon series. And in the passage that judge not lest you be judged, and then Jesus goes on to talk about how to judge, there there's a there's a sentence in there at the end of that about casting

what giving what is holy to the dogs and casting pearls before swine. And let me read you this quote. So this is from page 454, studies on the Sermon on the Mount. He says, lastly, there's a question which we might ask, and I deliberately put it in the form of a question because I admit quite frankly that I'm not clear in my own mind what the answer should be. Is there, I wonder, a query, a question, perhaps a warning in this verse.

regarding the indiscriminate distribution of scriptures. So maybe that's a little less pizzazz way you last punchy, but let me give it to you again. is there a a warning in this verse regarding the indiscriminate distribution of the scriptures? I'm simply raising a question for you to consider and for you to discuss with others. So look, we're doing this all these years later. If I'm told that I have to discriminate in speaking to people about these things, if I have to differentiate between type and type of person about the particular truth that I give to each,

Cameron (16:10.144)

L l less punchy. Yeah. He's he's yeah.

Nathan (16:33.686)

Is it a good thing to put the whole Bible within reach of people who can be described as spiritual dogs and swine? May it not sometimes lead to blasphemy and cursing and to behavior and to conduct of swinish character? Is it always right, I wonder, to put certain texts of scripture on placards, especially those referring to the blood of Christ? I've often myself heard of these things leading to blasphemy, and I simply put the question, and he goes on to develop it from there, but he's asking the question if somebody has no spiritual appetite,

And you're thinking about something as holy, is there a limitation or warning here on the flippancy with which we just kind of

fling biblical or even parts of verses into the cosmos and see where they stick. What to what degree does that is that different or similar to what Howard Voss is saying, do you think?

Cameron (17:22.904)

Yes.

Well, so it's different in the sense that Martin Lloyd David Martin Lloyd Jones is concerned with blasphemy and flippancy. Stanley Hauerwas is concerned with hyper individualism. Now both of these are they're they're not unconnected, of course. But Howrawass is concerned with the common people. So he's thinking about 21st century Americans or 20th century Americans. I'm not can't remember when he wrote that, probably the nineteen nineties. He's concerned with people who take the Bible and

Have the whole just me, my Bible, and Jesus philosophy and just run with it. And so when these these same types of people, you know, read the end of Daniel or the book of Revelation, they can come up with some pretty wild concoctions. So I think those are both very, very, I think they're related concerns. They're not, they're not identical, but you see, I think you see both in this article that we're talking about. You see

You see a kind of attitude that is, I think, flippant. I w I wouldn't, you know, it's flippant, but then you also see a hyper-individualism that would give you a sentence like, It just looks like a bunch of people trying to tell fairy tales to justify tribal warfare, which is an unbelievably, from a historical standpoint, just a nonsensical statement. You wouldn't say that if if you were reading any other

Ancient text, if you're if you're reading about the Peloponnesian Wars, for instance, or something like that, you would take for granted, I am peering into a different world. So the idea that scripture in the Old Testament should speak our language, so to speak, betrays a level of flippancy and and also just naivete. But that goes that there brought more broadly speaking, Nathan. I mean, this is part of the risk of

Cameron (19:24.152)

having a holy book put into our grubby hands.

You're y yeah, you're gonna have you're gonna have some of that enter in. Yeah.

Nathan (19:32.676)

Do you think Cameron there they're

Nathan (19:37.528)

Yeah.

There's a way in which I'm I'm thinking back here to something that you said several podcasts ago about human human nature not deteriorating or changing. That there's a there's a consistency to something about what it means to be human, that there there might be a way in which you look at the old testament and you say it doesn't speak to our time. And I think the person who's thoughtfully reading scripture says it doesn't speak to our time, but it speaks to our condition.

It does it does teach us real things about the heart and the nature of humanity. and when I think when when we're looking at it in that way, there's there's a whole lot more to it. and this'll go, yeah, I I've quoted it many times, you know, grandpa's thing about whether or not you're riding on a donkey or a rocket, the moral framework by which you're supposed to treat other people is the same. So the if the technology changes, it it doesn't

Cameron (20:40.514)

Yes.

Nathan (20:41.156)

There there there's there's something that the sc that scripture is speaking to that transcends the the chronological oddities of what it is that we may or may live without materially in the future, but it's it's saying something deeper about us in in a meaningful way.

Cameron (20:55.53)

Absolutely. Well, how did I'm so glad you said that. So yeah, what did this gentleman feel nothing when he read the story of Joseph and his brothers, for instance? I mean, there I can't think of a more deeply human story and then one that reaches a conclusion that is simultaneously very mysterious and moving. But yeah, what what could be more human?

More down to earth than a favored child bragging to his brothers about his status as being the favorite and his dreams about them bowing down to him and them seething with resentment and conspiring to at first kill him and then just sell him into slavery and destroy him and get him out of the picture. I mean, there this is

This is something that I mean, it has all the hallmarks, not just of a great story. It has all the I mean, the way in which the story is told or or you know

Nathan (22:00.089)

Yeah, but if I'm reading this through a certain lens cam camera, I'm gonna say, Well, I've never been sold into slavery in Egypt, so this doesn't pertain to me.

Cameron (22:05.302)

Of course, but I'm just saying those timeless aspects of just human nat you know, those time timeless snippets of human nature, or Jacob and his brother, the drama there, or Jacob wrestling on, you know, by by the J Buck. I mean, these are these are f these are very human and deeply moving scenes, or he he he got nothing out of Saul and

David and Saul and Michael and their very interesting, strange relationship that we d not none of this. So there I think what I've said is true, but what you're saying is true as well. There is enough I I can understand tripping over chronologies and and you know, genealogies and all of that. I I get that. Okay, fine. Book of Numbers, book of book of Leviticus. But he he also he also complains about coming across measurements for the tabernacle.

Nathan (23:01.22)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (23:01.57)

So I just think there are there are enough comments in here that are so so much more revealing about him than they are about the deficiencies of scripture.

Nathan (23:10.552)

Okay, okay. Well let's let let me let me pick up on that theme. So it reveals something about him, but anybody who's reading scripture and interpreting it is revealing something about you as well. And so you had said earlier the the the quote, you know, can we have just like me, my Bible, and Jesus? unless you are part of a native tribe that had no written language, and the first book that was ever translated into a newly formed language for you was the Bible.

And even then, I I'm try I mean, is there it's so so the other day our our s he was six, our six year old was sitting on the couch, Cameron, and all of a sudden he sat up with his eyes as big as saucers and looked at He's like, Dad, you can never not touch something. And I said, That's right. And he said, Even if I jump up, I'm still touching the air. And it was like this six year old aha moment, and it was hilarious to watch his facial.

Expressions as you realize for the first time that you can never not touch something. The the same thing is true when it comes to biblical interpretation. You can never not you you can never just read scripture. There is always an interpretive framework that's at play here. And so whether or not it's your history in the Greek Orthodox Church, it's the family that you grew up in, or American individualism, there are it's you gotta have this aha moment that I'm you you can't not touch something.

That you you can't not be shaped by something when you come to starting reading scripture. Now, if you know that, then I think you can very much be intentional about what are the standard operating procedures of a responsible biblical interpretive framework and hermeneutic. And then you hopefully are part of a congregation that has consistency in the way in which you use scripture and onward you go from there. But it's in developing that total hermeneutical style.

that all of the parts of the scripture start to fit together. It's once you become cognizant of the framework that all of it makes sense. And so I'm saying he's coming into this with an an individualistic what is instantaneously interesting to me. And that is the framework, but that's not a framework that allows you to see how the how all the pieces fit together. So this is not at all taking away from the idea of the inspiration of scripture or God's ability to speak to us.

Nathan (25:37.871)

through the written word at all. It's just saying, let's be mindful that most of the people that I know who think it's it's just me, Jesus, and the Bible are actually deeply informed by YouTube and country music, for example. And that creates a subconscious framework by which they're reading scripture. So nobody gets off the you can't, you can't not touch nothing, to put it in the six year old phrase. But I I want to make that just set that out there for all of us as we read scripture.

that there is a and and the context can be delightfully helpful. So it's it's not saying that it's bad. It's just we have to acknowledge that it's there. I'm sure you can say all of this in one sentence. Summarize my thoughts for me.

Cameron (26:19.49)

Well, yeah, you can't I would say your s your thoughts are you can't not have a hermeneutical framework. And for those who haven't heard the word hermeneutics, this simply involves this is essentially the art and science of interpretation. Hermeneutics is incredibly important when it comes to honestly, the reading of any text, but it's but it's cer certainly with texts that seem a little bit far removed from our own moment. But yeah, so throwing the Bible and opening up a Bible and saying, Thrill me.

isn't exactly going to be the best formula, but it's also worth pointing out, Nathan, that

There there are that you can you can come across the words of scripture and fail to see their truth. This is true this is this is actually recorded repeatedly in scripture. Saul of Tarsus, before he becomes the apostle Paul, knew the scriptures. I am comfortable saying better than us and better than anybody listening to this podcast. He was trained under Gamaliel, so

to just to put it in anachronistic terms, the Harvard Law School of of of training for him, certainly, in, you know, Phariseaism. So he he was familiar with the scriptures. He was familiar with Isaiah and the and the prophecies. Did he did he believe them? No, not until Jesus revealed himself to Paul. Now I'm not necess now I'm not saying that Paul's road to Damascus experience is a paradigm for all of us and that we're all going to have some dramatic

Blinding experience with Jesus. Some people do, but most of us don't. But that is what happened to Paul. So when Jesus put to him the question, Saul, why are you persecuting me? This was a revelation and he changed dramatically. So much so that it has his transformation, his change has compelled a lot of people to think.

Cameron (28:24.064)

more seriously about the gospel and Christianity. But my point there is scripture itself records the ignorance of its heroes on a routine basis. It's not just, of course, the Apostle Paul. The other apostles struggled to understand what was going on until it was later revealed to them and they finally began to grasp what Jesus had been saying to them, the the years in which they were actually with him, walking with him hand in hand, so to speak. So that also is a factor here.

Nathan (28:49.462)

Yeah. And G and Jesus himself.

Yeah, and Jesus himself, he who has ears to hear, let him hear.

I mean so there is a a an yeah a a recognition in Jesus' teaching ministry himself that he was saying things that didn't immediately land with people. But I but it's not just for the unbeliever here or the person who's reading the skeptically, Cameron. Everybody that I know who routinely and consistently meditates upon scripture finds things there that they didn't see previously. That's why people usually read the Bible more than once. It's a

i like th there there's a sense in which you're you're reading a passage and you're thinking of it in light of the whole story, and then in light of what you know about the whole story, then you bring that meaning back to the passage. And so there's this conversation between the specific pericope and the overall narrative back in that's an important part of that. And so I think it is a a difficult thing for somebody to read the Bible for the first time and be, you know, walling around somewhere in numbers and think, what does this have to do with anything?

Cameron (29:40.91)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (29:57.327)

But if you can zoom out, then actually a whole lot of the description about how the tabernacle is laid out, then when you look at the way in which that imagery is developed as a horizontal representation of the vertical structure of the cosmos, there's a whole th th theological yeah, anyway, w vi vision that plays out in the silliness of like why why are we getting details about the tabernacle here? Well, actually, there's a reason.

Cameron (30:14.486)

Mm-hmm. Vision. Yeah. Well

Even if I if I were having a if I were having a beer with this guy or an espresso, I would say to him, Well, you're in Levitic Leviticus, why don't you try paralleling it with Hebrews and and watch what happens there? It might not thrill you completely, but you're gonna see a very interesting interplay between those two texts. What Hebrews is doing with Leviticus is absolut you at the very least, you're probably gonna have to admit it's fascinating.

So yeah, if you're if somebody's beginning scripture, you're not gonna you're not gonna tell them to begin with second chronicles.

Nathan (30:49.932)

Yeah. So I I think there there would be a a a similar frustration.

Nathan (30:58.242)

Yeah. Well and and I think there's a a sense here or it would be the frustration of working in a factory producing brake pads, but never having driven a vehicle down a scenic highway. The the the the the the the details and the elements of the core of if that is the totality of your vision of what's happening there, it will seem small.

But if you ever have driven a vehicle down a scenic highway, you've been very grateful for your brake pads. and so that's the movement that I think as Christians that we want to help people see is what is the purpose of this and what does it facilitate? and then we come back into it and be thankful for the specific specificity and the details that we have in front of us. So I think the world is full of people who basically have this same attitude, Cameron. And it's it's my hope that, you know, as we chip away it

discussing these ideas that were helping people be reminded of the bigger vision of what this is all for.

Cameron (31:54.114)

Yep. Can I

Cameron (32:01.249)

I'm gonna do something risky and I'm gonna end on a provocative note because I want I want to inspire thinking and maybe we come back to this, but I think there are a lot of people out there with this gentleman's sensibilities, but I also think there's a growing interest in scripture. I think right now you have new generations of people rediscovering the Bible. Certainly the sales for the Bible for Bibles bear this out. But I think what's going to be incredibly important, here's the controversial thing I'm gonna say. We, particularly evangelicals often.

Love to t they think immediately we will think immediately, aha, now it's time to defend the authority of scripture and inerrancy. I'm gonna say no. I'm not saying the authority of scripture isn't important. Sure it is. That's not the needful thing here. I'm not saying that it isn't a needful pursuit sometimes. I'm you you know right. I'm done with the qualifications. Okay. I'm I'm I'm dying the death of a thousand qualifications. That's not where it starts. What the work will be here.

Nathan (32:49.092)

But it's just not the starting question most people have.

Cameron (32:59.304)

Is a little bit of what we've been doing in this podcast. And it is work to restore the significance of scripture, to help people understand why is this important. And even if you don't believe even if you don't believe it, that's fine. But here's why this is profound. Here's why, for instance, when we look to Jesus, we discover new possibilities concerning human life, human potential, and the possibilities for flourishing in any era, whether we're talking about feudalism.

Industrial revolution, post industrial revolution. And yes, now in the age of the AI revolution and slop everywhere, we look to Jesus and we see possibilities for thriving and doing well here and now. Well, that's important. That's amazing. And that is that ought to arrest our attention at the very least and give us pause for thought. That's the kind of work we're gonna need to be doing when we talk about scripture. And if we want to get technical, it's not gonna be technical discussions of manuscript evidence.

It will be hermeneutical discussions. For far too long, we have neglected hermeneutics because it's a little bit foreign to us. And I'm telling you, as we forge ahead here into our strange moment, hermeneutics is going to be ever more important and ever more significant. So those are my parting words. I don't know if you want to add anything, Nathan. But yeah.

Nathan (34:19.268)

I like it. Nope. I I would say that the best place if you're saying, Hey, I need to develop some hermeneutical skills here, the best place that you can do or or that you can attend to find one of these is probably somewhere between nine and eleven AM on a Sunday morning with a group of other Christians. So hopefully there is a church close to you who is working this out and modeling well how to read, understand, apply scripture for the glory of God and for your neighbor's good. And so

Podcast won't do it. You're going to need some other people to to journey through life with you as you discern what it is the Lord is saying to you through his word. You've been listening to Thinking Out Loud, the podcast where we think out loud about current events and Christian hope. We'd appreciate it if you like what we're doing. If you would like it, share it, subscribe to it. If you want to support the work that we're doing, you can do so by visiting www.toltogether.com. We really appreciate the encouragement that we get from you guys. Thanks so much.