The Biggest Threat of AI: Preserving Humanity, Christianity, and Culture
Cameron (00:08)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co host, Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:11)
And I'm your co-host, Nathan Rittenhouse.
Cameron (00:13)
So thoughtful piece came out comparing the thought revolution, the conceptual revolution or the paradigm shift that's going to be inaugurated by OpenAI to the eradication of culture experienced by Native Americans. So I didn't say it. This is in the article in Point magazine. We can link to it in the show notes. It's a bold argument. So
That it might and it it might sound insensitive at first, but bear with it a second because there's something there. So it has I mean, the two authors talk about the Crow Native American tribe specifically, and they talk about the chief who's actually fairly well known as far as Native American chiefs go. I would say this is one of those names that is somewhat of a household name, but plenty coops.
He did a lot of a lot of good for his for his tribe in trying to ensure their long term survival in the face of just absolute devastation. But there there's a very stark kind of moment happened when, and I believe it happened, Nathan, you can correct me if I'm wrong on the detail here detail here. But when their entire way of life, which was intimately tied to hunting buffalo.
When the buffalo kind of left the picture, their narrative fell apart, their understanding of themselves, who they were, why they were there in the first place, their story came undone. And they faced a kind of existential crisis wherein they no longer knew who they were. Yep. Yep.
Nathan (02:02)
Yeah, when your main referent point disappears what's the story?
Cameron (02:06)
Yeah, their compass, you might say, was taken and shattered.
And so yes, they may have survived, but the whole quality of their existence completely changed and they were completely lost. So it's a very it's a very sad story. And also hope in the larger sense for them died. They're drawing their thinking here from a from a book that was looking at hope and drawing from their example. So a lot of really rich source material here that is worth you checking out anyway.
Nathan (02:36)
Yeah, and yeah,
and let me throw another thing in here because I think you get some overly rosy colored modern Yeah, anytime that you have Europeans talking about Native American, like it's just an odd and you're like, what are what's the point we're trying to prove here? One of the things I appreciated about this though is that it didn't paint an overly rosy picture of the crow life before the buffalo disappeared. So so it wasn't just the end of the buffalo.
But is also a life of continuous warfare. And so there's a technological shift and cultural shift that happens in here that parallels the loss of the buffalo. That's an important part of this. And that the crow had been fighting the Shawnee for I mean, it that was like that was also part of the paradigm. Yeah, like you're this is who we are. Yeah.
Cameron (03:19)
Yeah. That's that's who they were. Yeah. Enemies of the Shawnee, yeah. And
Nathan (03:25)
And so this whole lifelong in fact, plenty of Koop's name comes from a coop is like a point that you score.
for in war or stealing horses or
Cameron (03:36)
Yep.
Nathan (03:37)
so plenty of it means he's like a really good warrior at
Cameron (03:39)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (03:39)
really good at fighting the Shawnee and he becomes the leader through that. But all of the skill set that they had developed for fighting the Shawnee didn't work fighting the Europeans. And so it was it was a loss of Buffalo which gave the loss of the cultural referent of the the mythology, using that as a meta narrative kind of phrase
Cameron (03:59)
Yeah. Right.
Nathan (04:01)
here, along with
a massive cultural change in the way in which they had lived their lives suddenly met a new culture and a new form of technology that the old way of life
Cameron (04:13)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (04:14)
didn't work in fighting and the whole thing fell apart. So I think to to jump to the end, just so people know where this is going, the question is as, you know, plenty of coups was watching the whole thing come undone and get down to the end and seeing that a whole way of life
And understanding the world has disappeared, what do you do in that moment? And then the parallel coming up against, and I think, you know, the jury's still out on whether or not AI is is this, you know, totally new technology, totally new referent, in which, you know, all of our civilization up until this point will no longer make sense. That might be a bit overdone at this point, but I think we can play off these ideas.
Cameron (04:55)
Yeah,
so part of how they're drawing AI in there is that it is in a manner not entirely dissimilar, going to completely change the way we think about authenticity, sincerity, emotional depth. The reason it's gonna do that is because already it is able to fool us. I think that's probably the most simple and modest argument you can make with regard to AI. You can say it's it's capable of fooling us. We all know that, but it's
The fooling goes beyond deep fakes and images, footage, or even pieces of writing. I think I often I'll bring in the arts here often, because the arts are seen as the exclusive domain of the human personality. So
Nathan (05:44)
Last year.
Cameron (05:45)
last year, yeah. There was an interesting moment with maybe I've I've I've brought this up on the on Thinking Out Loud before, but
Rowan Williams and Richard Dawkins were in a discussion and Just Justin Brierly was moderating and they were talking about poetry. They both men love poetry. Richard Dawkins is a big Yates fan, and you may not know this about Rowan Williams, but along with being a world class theologian, he's also a very accomplished poet himself. So the the two are well qualified to talk about this. Dawkins talked about how poetry always makes him cry now. So it's hard for him to read it out loud. The older he gets, the more he finds his his eyes filling with tears.
Then Briarly interjects, Well, didn't you have I don't know if if it was Claude or ChatGPT or when didn't you have have it turn the selfish gene into a poem? And you read it on your podcast, Dawkins. He Yes, yes, I did. And so they read some excerpts from that poem. And it's predictably fairly impressive. It sounds kind of Rowan Williams points this out, he's always very astute. He goes, yes, well, that's that's sort of the the the dense meter of a Victorian poem.
And it does. It sounds like
Nathan (06:54)
Yeah.
Cameron (06:54)
it does. It sounds like a Victorian poem. And it's, but it's taking the major ideas from the selfish gene and putting them into poetic form. But, says Dawkins at the end, it doesn't really, you know, it just it fails to move him in the same way. He certainly doesn't cry. And I remember listening, and you know, I thought it would be all too easy to just take a little neat moral from the story and say, you see, AI will never match the emotional depth of.
Of an actual poet, of an actual Emily Dickinson or Yates or whoever it is, never. But we all know, I mean, the two of us, of course, that's not true. That's just sentimentalism. The more refined large language models become, the the better, the better they get at simulating. And I am using the word simulate here, but simulating the consciousness
Nathan (07:47)
Well, okay.
Cameron (07:47)
of an actual poet with real personality and real skill in craftsmanship. So
All that to say, Nathan, I think if you had the right configuration, it could produce a poem that would bring tears to people's eyes.
Nathan (07:59)
Yeah,
okay. So yes, I agree with you, but let's let me let me interject with this, because I think some of this some of your receptivity to this argument, or this concern even, will depend on a a broader set of personality and character traits. So thirty years ago, before most people are even using the internet, my uncle said to my mom, Hey,
You write wonderful birthday letters. Could you write a birthday letter from me to my mom? So this is my mom writing a letter from her brother-in-law to her mother-in-law. and it's kind of been this long-standing joke in our family that my mom wrote such a great letter on behalf of my uncle to her mother-in-law that it made my grandma cry. Here's the thing. Grandma knew that mom wrote it, but it still made her cry. There's a there's there's a
A willingness there in all sorts of categories of our lives of even when we know it's a fake to have it.
I I mean, from the porn industry all the way through, even like there is something about the human condition that even when we know it isn't real, we can still be emotionally invested in it. And then just step that up a notch into the realm of you don't know whether or not it's real. And the question I have is who's going to actually care?
Cameron (09:28)
Yes.
Nathan (09:29)
so so that I think as we're bringing this back
Cameron (09:30)
Good question.
Nathan (09:31)
around to the article, is the question becomes then, what do you want to preserve?
Cameron (09:37)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (09:38)
What what needs to f be preserved through the transit the cultural transition. And that's I think where we have some work to do here in this conversation.
Cameron (09:46)
For sure. Well, I mean, I think we as Americans are very practical and pragmatic. So there are philosophical questions about what precisely is transpiring when AI, a large language model, produces a poem that could stand alongside some of the best of what's been written and said. We, you know, you can talk about whether that is simply a simulation or a really scaled illusion, or whether it
we would actually call it a work of art. That's that's an interesting discussion, but that's not the discussion most people are gonna have. Most people who are thinking practically and just or just functionally even, are really gonna just ask, well, does this work? And if it brings tears to my eyes, hey it's working on me and I'm enjoying it. So why not if I'm enjoying it? What what you know, what possible harm would come from this? Part of what the article is pointing out is that the kind of erasure that you saw with the crow
Could
take place here, but on an even deeper level. Because we're going to certain qualities that we have always taken to be the heart of humanity. Intentionality behind what we're saying and what we're doing, sincerity and love, real emotions, the features of an actual personality.
If all of those now begin if we begin to see those and increasingly, and actually I'd love to hear you chime in here, Nathan, because I have a feeling you're gonna say we've already been doing this for a long time. But if you s if you start to see human emotions and sincerity and in and will and intentionality in increasingly instrumental terms, you are re you are quite simply, you're rethinking what it means to be human. At least as it's been understood down the ages. I have a feeling
We've been up to this for a while though, Nathan. I don't think AI necessarily AI may be exacerbating something that
Nathan (11:55)
That
Cameron (11:55)
was already there.
Nathan (11:56)
there's there's a little bit of an Ecclesiastes feel to some of these conversations to me, Cameron, where where I like Yeah, I I like my grandpa, it was helpful for me. He's like, when you're reading Ecclesiastes, you're not you're not reading truth to live by. You're reading the thoughts fluttering through the mind of a man trying to make sense of reality. So it's not like every single sentence in there is an operative prescription of what it is you should do with your life. He's going back and forth and trying to
make sense of what what do we see happening here. And part of the outworking of Ecclesiastes is that it's really, really difficult to make sense of what's most important in life until it gets all the way to the end. Fear God and duty. so it it feels to me like some of these it's almost like dissecting a frog. You have to kill the frog in order to do it. That like in order to take it apart
To analyze the pieces, you lose the value and the and the life and the essence of the thing itself. And
Cameron (12:57)
The life. Yeah.
Nathan (13:00)
so I I I'm not trying to be like mystic here, but I I am wondering what's what's what's the actual practical. So what can you do? Like, let's say that it's true. Let's say that AI is going to usher in a cultural wave of change that is.
similar to an entire tribe losing its identity and way of life and disappearing.
Cameron (13:25)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nathan (13:27)
So what are you going to do about it? is the conversation we're now having.
Cameron (13:34)
Yes.
Nathan (13:35)
Well, okay. Can I can I give you just to complicate this? Unfortunately we have leaders, l listeners that can handle complication.
Cameron (13:38)
boy. No, stop. Just kidding. Yeah.
Nathan (13:42)
I would like to read you three paragraphs. So bear with me. This will be a 90 second read. This is from a book that I picked up on a table of an abandoned cabin. I'm gonna read from it because I don't know if anybody has access to it. Yeah.
Cameron (13:53)
Of course you did.
Nathan (13:55)
This is Louise Dickinson Rich's We Took to the Woods, nineteen forty-two, reflections on living in rural Maine, in the late nineteen thirties.
It's part of a whole genre that was popular at the time on I think what they called rustification narratives. so this is growing up, she's she's growing up post-World War One, on the brink of World War Two, thinking about how do you raise children? Because the idea is here, what do we preserve as we're moving through cultural transition? So let me let me read this to you. She says, What can we give our children then that won't be outmoded, that won't, under some eventuality,
That we can't foresee prove to be a handicap to them. And so listen as I'm reading this because I thought, man, these are the questions we're asking on the brink of whatever AI is. So what can we give our children that won't be outmoded that we can't foresee, but it won't be a handicap to them because of what we've given them? I don't know the answer to that one. Once I would have said ideas and ideals, but I grew up in the years after the First World War when perpetual peace was supposed to be the easily attainable ideal.
I was trained in that ideal and I believed it with all the sincerity of which I was capable. Perhaps it is still attainable, but if it is, it will be by some different means than those I was taught to trust in. I don't want my child to ever feel as lost in the world as I do right now, nor do I want to inculcate in him the doctrine of force and aggression at no matter what sacrifice of the rights of others. We can give him a happy childhood to remember, a way of life that he will be willing to die to protect, if the need arises.
That sounds like a grim and Spartan gift to a little boy, but it's not as dangerous as the gift of a belief in pacifism and universal well-wishing to which my generation was exposed. I don't want to raise my son to be a good so to be a soldier, but if he has to be one, I want him to be a good and capable one. I want him to know what he's fighting for. And freedom and democracy won't mean a thing I thought this is pretty fascinating for 1942. And freedom
Cameron (15:52)
Mm.
Nathan (15:52)
and democracy won't mean a thing to him unless they are all tied up with the memories of things that he has loved.
Ever since he can remember things like the sound of the river and the way his dog lies and dreams in front of an open fire on a crisp autumn evening and the picnics we've held at Smooth Legge. The name of his country won't be worth fighting for unless he can remember from experience that his country is the place not of equal opportunity, not of universal suffrage, not of any of those lost lofty conceptions so far as a little boy's ability to comprehend. But the place where he walked with his father down the woods road one evening in Solidova with her twin fawns.
Or the place where he came in from playing in the snow and found the kitchen warm and fragrant and his mother making popcorn balls. That's all I can give him, and that's all I dare to try to give him. Something that he will love enough to want to preserve it for himself and others against what other danger may threaten from whatever quarter and the toughness and the courage with which to fight for it. To bring him up untouched by war insofar as it is possible in a world where there is no one completely unaffected by war today, is about the only contribution that I know how to make.
For the future.
Cameron (16:58)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (16:59)
And so I just thought, man, that's an interesting thing to listen to a mother in the late 30s grapple with what also seems to be a rapidly changing culture in time, and to conclude to say, how do I give him something that he will love enough to want to preserve it for himself and others? And so I do you I mean, is that a little too main woods mystical, throw esque? Or is there something in that as we're thinking about?
What needs to be preserved through the changes?
What do we want to put in that list?
Cameron (17:34)
Well, she has a lot of it in there, I think. She's talking about how he's not you know, freedom and democracy, those are ideas and ideals. And then she roots his ex sh she links whatever is if if there is anything that will drive him onto the battlefield. It will not be ideas.
Nathan (17:55)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (17:55)
It
will it will must be rooted in experiences. It must be rooted in memory. Memories of jumping in the river. Memories of him coming home and having popcorn balls that she's made. Memories that that are tangible and real, a vision, a way of life. That, it seems to me, is where we have I mean, that is where your passage has a lot to say to us in this moment. You had asked earlier if we are facing some kind of
eradication on the part of the way we've seen ourselves and all of that. What then what what do we what practically is within our power? What can we do? Well, you might say, based on that passage and also just based on common sense, join a bowling league, go fishing,
Nathan (18:40)
Hey.
Cameron (18:42)
jump into a lake and pull leeches off your body. Go out into the world, but don't just go out into the world. Hang out with other people. Start a book club.
Or
join a book club, go to physical spaces, go to go hear playing people playing music. You play music. Pick up an actual instrument and play it. And I think the good news is, Nathan, there's growing recognition in this regard. Because also, part of what's gone on with AI, you if you listeners are probably tired of us talking about it. I'm tired of talking about it. And I'm also tired of hearing about it. But because of this general oversaturation,
There's a weariness with this subject. And because also, if you're online, if you ever go online now, it's just it is truly just filled with slop. All I mean, it's just we used to say, you know, more is more. We need content. We need content. Well, now everything's overflowing with useless content. And what it's doing, or it seems to be doing at least a little bit, maybe this is just wishful thinking on my part, but it seems to be driving people back out into the world and into one another's arms. And
We need if we have more of that, that's yeah.
Nathan (19:51)
Yeah, well see, but I but I think that
I think that's a I think that's going to be the next class distinction is not monetary, but your ability to engage physical reality in a pleasurable way. Have yeah.
Cameron (20:07)
Have the luxury to engage physical reality in a pleasurable way.
Nathan (20:10)
Yeah. and and I know that's highly speculative and we'll see how that works and plays out in ten years. But everything that you mentioned there as an antidote was deeply physical, not
You didn't say one digital thing in your list of jumping in rivers and getting leeches. but we're also in this weird, I I think there's a a a dyad that's being set up here between the physical and the digital, but we want to see this as a triad with a spiritual component to this as well. And that's where everything gets wonky because then you have a three body problem here of how do we hold all of these things together. And so this is, I think when it comes to preservation.
And what are the what are the elements of the things that are important enough that we say these are non-negotiables, they must be transferred to the culture around us in order for us to make sense of the world. they're actually fairly simple. And and it's it's it's just inter I I was thinking through this topic in terms of the things that Paul said to Timothy. Hold fast, stand firm, persevere, that which was entrusted.
There there is a and this is where the article is not making the link to Christianity, but the the the duty to pr to preserve. There's a there is a Christian element of this as well of preserving and holding fast to and clinging to and pointing to the things that really hold reality together. So the the tricky the beauty and the difficulty of this, Cameron, is that none of the the to-do list is that
n difficult or exciting, but it is very time intensive.
Cameron (21:55)
Time intensive, but I think people have more time for it in the sense in the in the sense of that expression that they they're recognizing the need, the value to to get out, to have real experiences. But also this is this is transferred into the spiritual realm as well. I think this is another aspect of what draws people to
more ancient or thicker expressions of religion when we're talking about Christianity. So that would be, you know, any of the the high church places. Because there you have part of what what's what's amazing about ritual, and which is it's something that we all we all have in our lives. We need we need it. But it it tells us it it lets us know what we need to do. I think of a picture from Drew Johnson, D R U Johnson.
Did a lot of work on ritual kind of at the beginning of his career. And he points he points to one of the more ritualed activities in modern life that rip I mean it retains its rich its sense of thick practices is a funeral. And the reason
Nathan (23:00)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (23:00)
that can be helpful is because when you're in the midst of serious grief and in a sense your world has has been undone, you have to it helps to have people tell you what to do. You know, hey
Nathan (23:13)
Well so
Cameron (23:13)
Sit here, you know, stand up here, talk here, eat now, sleep now, that kind of thing. There's it's it's ex it's incredibly helpful. I think people today feel that a similar sense of loss, a similar sense of being undone. I mean, we you you kne we have all sorts of names for it, meeting crisis, people feel lack of purpose. When you're in f y metaphysical boredom.
Nathan (23:34)
Metaphysical boredom was a recent episode.
Cameron (23:37)
Yeah. So when you're in that space, when you are metaphysically bored, when this is this is boredom that goes beyond
the the bare notion of I don't have anything to do. Most people have way too much to do. It's a boredom that that that really goes to the it basically reports to you in ever shriller tones. Everything you're doing doesn't really matter in the long run. When you're in that sp that space, ritual, religious ritual as well, can be immensely it can be immensely help helpful to have somebody saying, Here's what you do. Here's what you say, what you do, here's when you sing, here's when you sit, here's when you stand.
Nathan (24:09)
But how weird is it to live in a culture where we need a funeral director to walk us through?
Death, which is common to us all. And and and so, I mean, hey, it's great. No, it's I mean, so
Cameron (24:20)
You're right. Yep.
Nathan (24:21)
it's it's a splendid thing, but and I grandpa my grandpa's done over a thousand I he I think he buried somebody every thirteen days on average for like fifty-three years. Like used to call Rittenhouse Hitch and Ditch. They marry him and bury him. the so just tons and tons of grief. And he was he always is helping people think through
How to have a funeral because nobody thinks about it until you have a dead body. So I I think what may be in relation to this article of what are the things that we want to preserve is we do want to be able to preserve the how of the basic functions of the of the rituals and the rhythms of what makes us human. And so those are going to be those people that tell you how to grieve.
Or or to give you that help you through the the ritual are going to be incredibly valuable if you want to engage in death in a physical sense and not just ask Chad GPT, what do I do with grandma's body?
Cameron (25:29)
Well, there are certain instances, Nathan, where I think people assume the the crisis is so pronounced. If somebody dies or if there's something that happens that's very scary, I I could give the example of my dad years ago messing around with the occult, something happened, and none of them were Christians, but immediately their first impulse was to call a Catholic priest. Wha w
Nathan (25:57)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (25:57)
why?
Well, because they it just in the it just instinctively it came to them there is nobody else equipped to handle this dimension of existence that apparently is real, unfortunately. Well similarly, if there are certain places where yeah, I mean, as as individualistic as we can be and as hooked to digital spaces as we can be, if we find ourselves in somebody if we've lost somebody, they've died, or there's somebody we're we're going through deep grief.
Many of us instinctively, if we know somebody like your grandfather, or if we know somebody who is a religio a religious person, somebody who wears a collar, we would we gravitate to them because this is we sense just again on a deep prim kind of primal level, this person somehow has the tools to bring order to chaos. It's a really strange thing, but it's true.
Nathan (26:47)
Well, and you n yeah, and you wanna
know another funny feature of our culture that works like that? Nine one one. So
Cameron (26:54)
Mm. Yeah.
Nathan (26:55)
your house is on fire, you don't watch a YouTube video on how to respond to that. You so it's like this. You didn't you probably didn't think about the nine one one operator sitting at the phone waiting for your call this morning. But it's a whole apparatus that is just waiting for you to have a crisis and recognize that you need help.
Cameron (27:15)
Crisis. Yeah.
Nathan (27:16)
And so
I think like is there a way in which the church functions as the whole first responders apparatus in a community where we're preserving the actual structure of the the medical security fire you know, spirituals spiritually speaking, of ready to jump in when somebody realizes like, wait, I'm in over my head, shoot, we we monkey with something here when we need some spiritual help.
And sometimes it's a physical help that the church can provide too. But I think when I'm thinking about preserving, I'm curious in maintaining that
I don't know what the word I'm looking for there is kind of Yeah, ap apparatus of aid.
Cameron (28:03)
Mm-hmm.
The church as as a kind of hospital. Yeah, I think we we just continue to struggle with embracing what it means to be a person these days. And we know, I think, in the back of our I mean, I think we know in in our heart of hearts that we need to lean more into our humanity and even into our own limitations.
rather than embracing some fantasy of being a limitless person. But it just it remains a challenge on the ground. I I think it's interesting that we we talked about clergy, different members of the church, who are often in our culture figures of fun, unless there is a crisis that is so severe, in which case they become kind of very sacred people all the all you know, once again,
Nathan (28:57)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (28:58)
now they really are high priests of a sort and
who can perform something that nobody else can. I think we're at a point now where that is sort of being recognized again, in maybe a slap dash fashion. But it
Nathan (29:13)
Yeah. Yeah.
Cameron (29:14)
but it is. And I th I I like the idea of the church as a kind of yeah, hospital or crisis center, which it is, of course. And yeah, on hand not just to to help and
In times of terrible grief, but perhaps to fix a leak in your roof or whatever else is needed.
Nathan (29:33)
But but you so but
it's it it's not just that you have funeral directors, you also have wedding coordinators, and you also have people who walk you through times of of feasting and joy, and there are graduations and there are ways in which these things are done, and you have people who help you. So it's yeah, it's not all doom and gloom, but it does mean I think as we grow spiritually that we we drift more toward training in those categories.
And so you kind of run into this, you know, awkward thing where you have to use data centers in order to protest data centers. Even like right now, we're participating in, you know, a a a digital platform to talk about being careful digital platforms. and so really the the the phrase that gets used is, you know, go touch grass. Right. And I think in order
And so that that works in a naturalistic expression of you can go read the rustification narratives and pine-that's why everybody's reading Wendleberry, who lives in an apartment. You know, you want to get out there and farm with a horse or something. You probably don't, but you think you do. But anyway, the so that's a that's a bit limited when you look at like first John, that which we have seen, which we have touched with our eyes have beheld. There's a there's a a call biblically for a contact with reality.
That goes even beyond the physical, that is more real. And so just touching grass, it's great. I I like the outdoors as much as anybody else. But there also is a a spiritual component to this. So our rejection of being sucked into AI slop is not going to be solved just by an attachment to the physical world. It's going to have to be bound to something deeper than that, both physical and spiritual, together. And so I think I'd I
I'm with Louise Dickinson Rich. I don't know what all the tools and resources to give my kids are, but I do know that helping them see the the beauty and the value of the physical world, even sometimes when you get a tick bite and half of your face doesn't work. and also to see the s the depth of the spiritual tools that are available. I don't know if they're going to use them when they grow up, but I want them to know that they exist. And I it's kind of like I always say like,
I've taught all of my kids to eat their breakfast cereal with a spoon. And as they, you know, move into their teenage years, they might want to try eating their Cheerios with a fork or a knife or tongs, whatever. But I think a spoon is the best way to eat cereal. And I want them to have that resource to fall back on if they get to a point in their life where you're like, you know what? A steak knife really isn't the best thing to eat your cereal with. wait, how did my parents did it? they use this thing called a spoon. So there are things that we're modeling with our lives in the physical and in the spiritual world that are laying out a framework.
of resources for the people around us to also have access to should they run out of steam in the pursuits that the screen is selling
Cameron (32:43)
Think on these things. Thank you for the
Nathan (32:44)
Be a preserver.
Cameron (32:45)
Yes, be a preserver. Think thanks for thinking along with us here. And in case you missed it in all of this, you've been listening to Thinking Out Loud, a podcast where we think out loud about current events and Christian hope. We hope that you like us. And we hope also that that like translates into you being an enthusiastic supporter and spreader of the word. So like, share, and subscribe. And if you would like to
Support us financially. You can do that by going to www.toltogether.com. If you are the praying type, we sincerely would value your prayers for wisdom and guidance as we continue this conversation that is thinking out loud. We try to the best of our abilities to give you something that is not just more content, not just more slop, not just more noise, but something that actually does stimulate real thought. And we try.
Nathan (33:39)
Rumination.
Cameron (33:40)
Rumination, that's right, chewing the cud. And we do try to the best of our abilities to go after underlying conditions rather than just symptoms. We don't always succeed, but we do try. And so it's A for effort there. Anyway, we appreciate you. Thanks so much.