Why Experts Are Worried About AI Toys
Cameron (00:01.046)
Yellow and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your host, Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:05.29)
And I'm your host, Nathan Rittenhouse.
Cameron (00:07.722)
AI toys. You sure, sure, sure. This was a s this was an article that really caught my attention on Three Quarks Daily. And it's really interesting. So it was a it was about basically, yeah, toys that are gonna have the you know AI toys for kids being rolled out. And
Nathan (00:10.082)
Art isn't all AI, really a toy, but go ahead, clarify.
Cameron (00:29.986)
People, of course, are always we're Americans, we like to go after symptoms rather than the underlying condition. So this this writer was pointing out a lot of people are talking about, is this another form of surveillance? You know, are are we gonna be protected as consumers from this product? Okay. And not that those aren't important questions, but they're kind of, as my dad would say, adventures and missing the point, I I think a little bit. So this writer was pointing out the more interesting question is what this will do to childhood.
Nathan (00:49.536)
Yeah.
Cameron (00:59.532)
To child develop the child's development, specifically how it will affect them in the development of their imagination and their capacity for empathy. So in very basic terms, a lot of very good thinkers have put their heads together and have recognized that playing is an incredibly important thing for children to do. It is an
Nathan (01:25.146)
Mm, mm-hmm.
Cameron (01:26.71)
It's an integral part of how they navigate this strange world of ours and make sense of it.
Nathan (01:32.228)
Well, people don't think of it. Your your play is really where you do your practicing.
Cameron (01:36.354)
Yes. It's where you do your practicing. Practicing it what? Well, really practicing it being a person and interacting with other persons specifically. So the writer points out that in the past, if you had a stick and you pretended this stick was a horse, that was one thing, and then you had all or if you had a bunch of dolls and you supplied the dialogue for the dolls. Well what happens now when you have a toy that talks back to you? Literally. Well, we we really don't even
Nathan (01:43.376)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (02:05.081)
No, we're kind of just scratching the surface of what this will do. So I thought this was fascinating. It also coincides with some personal conversations I've happening with my own children, especially my son, who is right now utterly captivated by by robots. I think I meant did I I don't know if whether I mentioned this on
Nathan (02:24.824)
You you and I have talked personally about it, but we haven't on the podcast of
Cameron (02:27.595)
Yeah, I've I've yapped on about it to you. So I I feel like I've said this already, but so I'm old so I can repeat myself. But I was I was at the grocery store, you know, strolling down the frozen aisle. And then this I look up and I just pointed straight ahead and I said, There is a robot, son. And it's this very crude looking to me, I mean it looks like a rumba it looks like a charging station for phones attached to a rumba rolling toward us.
Nathan (02:51.568)
So
Cameron (02:55.431)
And, you know, I look at it, it says, Hi, I'm Tally. Get it? The inventory row get it. But ever since then it's been and I know you've had similar experiences yourself, Nathan, but ever since then it's any hey dad, do we need batteries? Dad, do we need bananas? Do we need anything? And really it's just can we go to the grocery store so we can see Tally, you know, and just interact with the product.
Nathan (03:05.038)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (03:14.116)
Yeah, my kids were fascinated with I think it was Marty at Martin's, the grocery chain Martins. We were driving through a different town and they had a Martins and I think Marty was just looking for spills. So but yeah, screen, big eyes, so definitely a humanization thing there. But yeah, the kids thought I mean just followed it around, thought this was the the wildest thing ever.
Cameron (03:24.491)
Mm, mm.
Cameron (03:35.607)
So I think one of the most interesting questions to ask about any form of technology it has to do with how it's going to reshape our our thinking.
Nathan (03:44.304)
All right, hang on. Before you go down this all philosophical route, can we just Okay, s hang on. So he let me just put my cards on the table and then convince me that I'm wrong here. I don't know we have to do a whole lot of speculation on this one, Cameron. Like we now have a fairly well established, beyond the anecdotal, I mean, fields of research on the use of technology in young developing minds. You have recommendations from the American Pediatric Association, you have schools that are diverting technology
Cameron (03:47.947)
Yeah, sure.
Nathan (04:13.838)
back to or reverting back to paper and pen. I mean, the the link between screen time, digital interactive technologies and childhood health, education, well being, communication, like it's all negatively correlated to the point that I think, I mean, you're looking at countries now that are putting banning teens from social media all the way up through, I mean, near surgeon general level warnings of not giving your kids devices. And then on top of that, the whole
conversation around the people who produce all of these devices don't give them to their own kids because they know the addictive and destructive qualities that like how how much would you like what would it take to be like to convince you that maybe we should pump the like I I've seen nothing outside of the people who are actually selling these things and loosely linking it to educational purposes, which we're all suckers for, who think this is a good idea.
Cameron (04:55.489)
To convince you.
Cameron (05:11.081)
Mm. Well and I think Yeah.
Nathan (05:12.002)
So I'm just saying, how is this th this seems like an acceleration, not a so this seems like a difference in degree, not a difference in kind to me.
Cameron (05:18.891)
Yeah. And I think you're right. And also, I mean, what's the what's the difference between this and say the parents who set their kids up with some game system and or or even back in the day, hey, the T V the T V will babysit the kid. We'll go do a w yeah.
Nathan (05:28.418)
Okay, so basically yeah, this this is a this is a child care service.
Cameron (05:35.67)
It's a childcare care service, and you're right, though, the sneaky marketing well, the not so sneaky, not so subtle. Hey, this is this is a STEM toy. It's amazing how that it's almost you know, the the the the old phrase, you know, because science says function almost like verbal magic. Well, put slapping STEM onto a box is a it's about like the the equivalent of the Oprah Book Club seal of approval. I know always a dentist recommends this too space. Yeah, it's just so it's it's galling. So
Nathan (05:44.325)
Yeah.
Nathan (05:56.528)
This dentist recommends this toothpaste for the entire nation.
Cameron (06:04.427)
These toys, presumably, I think many of them are are being marketed as well. Yeah, they're educational toys and they're they're STEM toys. And so your little budding engineer can interact with this AI toy and and then begin to develop more, you know, more more of those critical skills and think like a scientist, because we all want more little scientists. But there is yeah. So that's that's one line of argumentation. I find it as convincing as
my tone of voice was right there. But it it it is an arg I I'll say what I s I say to my son sometimes. Do you I mean do you think that's a good idea? And I'll s and if it's if it's if it's an absolutely terrible idea. It certainly does qualify as an idea, son. So that's what I would think. Yeah.
Nathan (06:36.111)
Well
Nathan (06:47.087)
Then he can read between the lines.
I I the the question really camera well, actually there are a lot of ways we can go with this or continue the conversation is I was trying to remember back to my nine, ten, eleven year old self. Would I have found these things to be fascinating? Yes. Yes, I absolutely would have. And you can look back at some of the the cringe tech technologic like you remember Yakbacks? So you could just y you know, like something like that that Tomagooch, gigapets, I mean like the whole th there there was a
Cameron (07:11.664)
boy. Tamaguchis. Tamaguchis. Giga Bet yeah.
Nathan (07:20.064)
Cameron (07:20.171)
Pet Rock. That was a thing in the seventies.
Nathan (07:22.617)
Pet Rock Furby's. Wasn't that I I think I don't think I had any of those. I did I think we did have a yak back for a certain amount of time, which I mean that was digital cutting edge that you could record your voice and hear it say the thing that you said back to you as a you know, kid skill. so there have always been iterations and break ins in the things that we have been that we have thought are neat and clever.
Cameron (07:26.782)
my daughter has a Furby, Nathan. This is you're hitting me where it hurts. Yes.
Cameron (07:35.573)
Mm.
Nathan (07:51.777)
Is this just, hey, Cameron, Nathan, you're getting old now and getting cranky about the the kids these days, or is this legitimately new territory? I think we need to establish that first.
Cameron (08:02.646)
Yes. So I think that when it comes to toys that interact on this level, if we're talking about AI, software and the toys, I think that I I I suppose we could get lost in the weeds on whether this is a difference in degree or difference in kind. I think you can make a very strong case that it might be a difference in in degree, right? But I'm willing to go out on a limb and say this is genuinely new if you have
toys that are gonna be interacting at at the very least we could say they're gonna be interacting on a level that children have not experienced before. I so here's can I just lay out my real concern here, Nathan, for for how I believe this can contribute to a diminishment of the imagination of a child. It it will do so if it does so at all, and I think it will. It will do so in the realm of our understanding of personhood. That's my concern.
Nathan (08:41.68)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (08:59.5)
So my concern with and my kids get, you know, annoyed with me. They, okay, dad, I'll say it. It's not a he or it's not a tally's not a she. And I I'm very, very persnickety about that because I'm aware of how easily we as human beings tend to be misled by our language, how we're misled by metaphors, how we're misled by language, how we're misled by analogies and and word pictures. And then it tends to really affect the way we see reality. And we're to
We're in day and an age where it's very easy, it's never been easier to personify a machine. And I think that a child in the early stages of development, when the you know, when you're first learning those critical kind of skills of discernment, is not in a position to necessarily make that distinction with full conviction. So you you introduce a toy that appears to have agency and some degree of personhood.
I think that's my big concern. I think that's a real problem.
Nathan (10:01.604)
Well, it's also an interesting category in which the pr perhaps a significant portion of the toys historically were meant to be played with with other people. so a everything from I mean you the list goes on of of games and things that would facilitate, you know, from the frisbee to the football. i it's hard to play frisbee by yourself. you know, so there's there's that sense of n not that there weren't always isolated things that you did, but one of the things is like
I think when you're evaluating a new technology is not just to say, what is this doing for my individual moral development, conscious formation, way in which I view and look at the world, it's also what is it preventing me from doing? What am I not doing in its place? And so the the I was cracking up. I recently was reminded of Robert Putnam's phrase about the suburbs are a collective attempt at living a private life.
Cameron (10:47.39)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (10:56.866)
which is a pretty funny line. I it it seems like a lot of our digital technology is a collective attempt at living a private life. and so there's a way in which it can now the the private life can be highly customized now. But I you and I I I think the other thing, the reason that like kids haven't lived long enough to be jaded yet by false advertising or recognizing that actually this robot can't solve that many problems. This one can basically, you know, take inventory of a grocery shelf that's not, you know, a meaningfully
meaningful problem that we have in our family. So as you and I kind of watch the world and we're recognizing the the beauty that comes from deep human relationships and fellowship, we're obviously we're going to want to be spurring and encouraging our children to develop those skills that enable them to interact deeply and meaningfully with the world. And this isn't it. And so that's the I think it it's not just what it is, it's what it isn't.
Cameron (11:37.656)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (11:48.194)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (11:51.894)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (11:53.733)
that you and I have a a a kind of a reactionary, not because the thing itself is bad, but because it seems like a a cheap stopgap to what we know to be possible in human interactions.
Cameron (12:07.438)
Well, on one of on a larger level, one of the huge problems right now is that people feel terribly lonely and that friendships are more difficult than ever in this supposedly highly connected world. And that's because a good deal of our technology does serve to keep us more isolated. Now I'm not saying there's some conspiracy. I'm not saying that it's not possible to get past these barriers. Of course you can, but it takes a high higher degree of intentionality these days. You depend on people less than you did in the past.
Nathan (12:22.478)
Okay, yes.
Nathan (12:34.862)
Well, okay, yeah. So let let's let's spell this out. What what formed community historically? Common worship and common toil.
What does technology allow us to do? We all have our own interests, our own values, our own things of worship, and none of us toil together on any single problem ever, hardly. except for so so I'm I'm just saying that this is this is a solution to a problem that isn't seen as a problem by everybody. So it's either a gift or it's a big or it's a or it's a big deal.
Cameron (13:01.25)
This is where
Cameron (13:11.715)
Yeah.
Nathan (13:11.918)
And you and I are kind of putting our cards on the table saying, like, hey, you're playing with fire here.
Cameron (13:16.78)
You were playing with fire for sure. And this is why I mean we sound will sound real old fashioned here, but we're we're actually not. A lot of people are saying this. It's a great thing to go out and play sports. It's a great thing to pick up an instrument and play in a band. Any kind of it's hey, go bowling with other people that thank you, Doctor Putnam. But these activities are are yeah. So these are all the difference here between what you just said, Nathan, and and today is that these are all recreational activities.
In the past, it was a matter of necessity. Community was a matter of necessity. Yes. Precisely. Now Yes. Now I mean there were voluntary associations and all of that, of course, but they were that that they were the luxury. I mean, you but community itself was not a luxury if you wanted to live to see the next day and have meal on the on you know, have a meal on the table. But we're not there anymore. But so that's that's this kind of a
Nathan (13:44.112)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (13:47.916)
Survival was a full time job. We're all skinning the yoke together this evening.
Cameron (14:11.926)
general description of our landscape, a landscape in which that loneliness and isolation are a real problem. And now we're talking about products that hit us at the earliest stages of development and further inculcate that that kind of isolation. Because I mean also if you're if you're let's play you're playing with this with a toy like this that interacts on a pr on a fairly, you know, reasonably sophisticated level level or something like that, to a significant degree.
you're pr you're playing a bunch of purely private games. I mean it's r yeah so
Nathan (14:44.344)
Right. But but here's the thing. Let's let's look take the kids out of it for a second. Most Americans are already doing this with their phones.
Cameron (14:51.992)
Yes.
Nathan (14:53.082)
So it's it's it's just it's it's just pushing the user to a younger age.
Cameron (14:54.432)
Most parents most parents are doing this on their phones in front of their children. This is the uncomfortable. This is where Nathan and I start to meddle. But if we're gonna have this conversation and be fair, we should. The parents aren't all right. I mean, we you and I, Nathan, we I mean, we're always I mean, I I've s you've been in public spaces. I've seen the parents with their nose buried in not a book, but their phone and their kids just doing
Nathan (15:13.272)
He
Cameron (15:23.902)
whatever and the kid just sees this behavior modeled for them all the time. So it's it's a problem. It's a widespread problem, of course, right now, yes.
Nathan (15:34.107)
So what's what's the I mean yeah, we we can get on to household rules for technology and how we maybe work ourselves out of that. But but well well so so I I think there's a there's a little bit of that. I mean there was an article, mm, might have been the New York Times a month or two ago from that was essentially saying, Okay, let's let's take the teen girl who's fifteen who spends seven hours or twelve hours a day this summer in between school on her cell phone.
Cameron (15:42.39)
What's the solution? I have no idea. I'm just kidding I'm just kidding.
Nathan (16:02.658)
And everybody's like, this is a this is a a problem. And the author said, Yeah, but what else would they be doing? Go to the mall? I mean, what's the the the so so the the argument of that article is saying that the that the infrastructure of teenage community has been hollowed out to a significant degree that really you end up with, okay, I can either do this and and stare at the wall. What and this is a false dilemma.
But this is what's being pitched, is you can be bored out of your mind, or you just if you can't whip join succumb to the beast and scroll the day away.
Cameron (16:42.626)
Yeah, here's why it's a false dilemma. There are countless things that you you could do. I mean, there are still places to which you you can go, by the way, with other people. There are still activities. And you do have to leave your house for it. But and and many of them most of them are free. You can go to there are parks and public pl spaces that exist and continue to exist. The th those can still be reached. You can read a book. You can play board games.
Nathan (16:51.684)
Yeah, but you gotta leave your house for that.
Cameron (17:07.146)
You can be involved in gardening and different projects. You can I mean there are d Nathan is the Mr. Hobby, so he he collects hobbies like some of us collect stamps. So that is absolutely possible, but you have to there has to be a will and there has to be intention for it. And we have to be able to imagine it so. And a lot of people operate with the kind of impoverished imagination that you just mentioned from that article earlier. So that's there too.
Nathan (17:30.816)
Mm. Yeah, but we'll it but behind all of this, what we're saying is that we are not creative enough to entertain ourselves. That the that the entertainment has to be imported from external sources who are experts at programming something.
Cameron (17:42.649)
Well we we have we've been well we've been conditioned to into into wanting passive entertainment all the time. That's that's the problem. So the the more active forms of entertainment that require some of your participation, some of us translate those as work these days. Whether that's reading a book or pl let's face it, playing playing board games. And of course I know I mean, you know gamers, I know gamers. There are people who get who do get very involved in these activities.
Nathan (18:01.38)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (18:12.504)
They are a little bit more niche and they're not they're certainly not the commonplace. The common I think the common assumption or the default for most of us is some form of passive entertainment.
Nathan (18:25.21)
Yeah. Well, but is it even hm which is so this is I I'm I'm conflicted on this because a lot of our entertainment just is distraction. You've made this point before. We're trying not to think about certain things, but I'm saying in certain in certain situations that kind of is what modern life has been reduced to. I mean, it's not really like the average 14 year old has to be out there hoeing potatoes every evening in order for the family to make it through the winter.
Cameron (18:50.061)
Yeah.
Nathan (18:55.032)
So I think most people say, Thank goodness that ship has sailed. So w what is the purpose of being a young person right now?
Cameron (19:00.962)
So this is what
Well, you know, and this is not a new problem. Again, I'll I'll get back to the new because there is a newness aspect here. I want to get back to that for a second. But I this is what Blaise Pascal was talking about in the eighteenth century. He was talking about the problem and the and the power of diversions. And that we tend to just go seeking diversions and that they are extremely helpful in distracting us from the human condition. They're helpful from distracting us from just some of the everyday concerns and worries. But on a on the deepest level, they they they help distract us from our overall
Nathan (19:13.562)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (19:33.635)
condition, our spiritual condition of neediness before before God. But the new to get back on that new thing just for just for a moment here, I do, I do think though, that when you have if you have toys that are impeding our imagination on this level, my worry is still that we start to look at people
we we start to lose sight of what makes a person a person in the first place and makes a person valuable. I think we're already seeing that in our world. That's already but I I see that if that's happening at an earlier an earlier age and infecting our imagination, then I do think we will that's a that's a further degree of damage that's occurring.
Nathan (20:26.896)
You know, I think of the image that comes to my mind is you remember the the Chinese foot binding practice? I mean, which at that at some point in time, this was considered to be the upper echelon of the elite. This was and now we look at this with horror, saying, my goodness, you're crushing little girls' feet to they never grew and they couldn't walk when they're older. And there's a there's a sense at which there's a a vision of the fullness of of what a woman is capable of.
Cameron (20:33.275)
yeah.
Cameron (20:40.406)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (20:55.758)
that makes us just wince deeply at foot binding. and I and I have not heard a good pro-foot binding argument for a very long time. I don't actually have never heard one. we just look at that with shock and horror because we've overly constricted something and didn't allow it to grow to its natural purpose and function. And so I I think that maybe when when we look at some of these forms of technology as a binding or a stunting or something that
I it w and it's it's more insidious when we're told this will lead to flourishing, but we all know good and well that it entraps. it just feels like there's an extra level of deceit there.
Cameron (21:34.615)
It does. And I think one one thing is clear though. You're we're you can you can bet you can bet on it, some horror movies are gonna come out of this. And the reason I think and th as a horror fan, yes, I'm excited. I'll cheer that on. But the reason I think that's important though is a lot of our societal fears play out in in theaters. And there's a long history of gothic stories dealing with demonic toys. But this
You mark my words, there'll be an there'll be another iteration here. And that's also an indication that people see this. They understand that. So I don't think I think there are plenty of other people. I think there are many parents. Mo a g I don't know if I would say most, but I think a lot of parents will read about these kinds of toys and say, That's creepy. Even if they're not gonna spell it out in the terms that we have here and they're not gonna say, Well, you know, cognitive psych child psychologists talk about how this will inhibit little Jimmy's
you know, imagination and his capacity for empathy. They may not use it in those words, but they know in just from a common sense standpoint and in their bones, this is gonna impede my child's growth to a significant degree. If if if they're playing with something that is robbing from them the ability to imagine and to develop their and to I hate the word develop, just to to picture in their minds, to to to build little worlds.
Nathan (23:00.346)
Well something that's uniquely yours.
Cameron (23:03.052)
Yeah, and I I can I can hear some here let's let's brief let's briefly play devil's advocate, Nathan. I cause I can hear somebody saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, Nathan Nathan and Cameron, why not both? What's wrong with with an AI toy that's that's developed specifically and tuned for kids specifically? Why can't it do all those things that you that you just said are so wonderful? Why can't it help them in building little worlds? Why can't it help them in developing social skills? Why can't it help them build their imagination? Come on, guys.
Nathan (23:28.27)
Okay. Okay. Good job. Good try. I'm not I'm not buying it. So you remember Sherry Turkle, one of her early books, Alone Together, How We Expect More from Technology and Less From Each Other? that was what, 2010, maybe? Was it and at least fifteen, sixteen years ago? Do you remember that the like the third section of that book was on the use of robotics in nursing homes? And they had that little robotic seal.
Cameron (23:42.894)
Quite a while ago. Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm. Ahead of its time.
Nathan (23:56.081)
So it looked like a seal, but it was made, it was built to interact with and communicate with the elderly. And so this was to entertain dementia, you know, grandma going through dementia so the rest of us could get on with everything else that we needed to be doing. run it to the other side. Let's let's let's act as if let's let's say it's not kids we're talking about. Let's say the use of AI companions for the lonely elderly. To me, these things seem like an indictment.
Cameron (24:01.358)
That's right. I've forgotten about it
Nathan (24:26.04)
Of a culture, not a technological
Cameron (24:31.82)
Arm Marvel.
Nathan (24:32.982)
Marvel. I it and and and I mean it's it's hard to say definitive statements like that because there are I get it. There the the the w the world is a is a a a a wrinkly reality of the of the things and the different situations and all the different context and nuances of the conversation. I'm just saying that in an can can't we just say that in an ideal situation, a kid shouldn't have to be entertained by an AI Furby.
Cameron (24:40.054)
Yeah, sure. No, I hear you.
Cameron (24:47.746)
Well well Nathan, let me can I ask you?
Cameron (24:57.368)
Well that what I was gonna say Yeah, well so you use the word indictment. Yes, definitely strong language. Yeah, are you saying that it's an indictment because we don't want to be with the elderly. We don't want to be with the kids. So you're have this machine No, no, yeah. I don't think so. No, I don't think so. And that yeah, I think it's a damning statement, but I think it's a true one. And
Nathan (25:12.846)
I mean, how else would you I I mean, does is that too is that too blatant just to say a raise that as a question?
Cameron (25:24.576)
I think it's one that we, including myself, none of us want to hear, because we're all w not only are we conditioned for passive entertainment, our society also sells us the lie that the good life is the easy and convenient life. And so if you're thinking that the good life is the easy and convenient and safe, it's a sa we have fetishized safety to such a bizarre degree in our culture, that's a whole nother podcast. But okay, if the if the good life as we as we take it is is the the safe
The easy, the convenient life, well then kids are a real threat to that. And the elderly are a real threat to that because both both of those those groups are so darn inconvenient. Yeah, people in general. People people I mean, a dog a dog threatens that for goodness sakes. A cat threatens that. Cats and dogs will throw up on your rug. Yeah.
Nathan (26:04.068)
I think people in general. Yeah. But yeah, definitely in the Well
A pet can do that. Yeah. The the yeah, my my grandfather's remarked recently on the the old phrase, twice a child and once a man is way more true than you realize that there's some some com but we live I mean, so you and I Cameron are clinging to a a thick vision of reality in which the creator of the universe designed
Cameron (26:23.35)
Yes. Yeah.
Nathan (26:37.154)
A world in which humans would experience different levels of dependency and sufficiency and imagination and have different competencies and different skills and different talents and different contributions, and that we have to take care of each other and progress through, and that that diversity would be seen as something that's out of beauty, and that God would be working and informing a deeper meaning and purpose in his creation through the interactions of humanity with each other and with their creator and with.
Cameron (26:49.1)
And have to take care of each other. Yeah.
Nathan (27:06.052)
The creation itself. And so there's you and I are dinosaurs here of longing for this sense of Jesus saying, Let the little children come unto me and do not hinder them. What does it mean to hinder the little children growing into the fullness of healthy physical, spiritual, mental, and emotional creatures? I mean, do we really see the mental health of children as a responsibility that we have? Or is it like, okay, they got enough protein today, back to the closet with the screen?
Cameron (27:34.542)
Yeah.
Nathan (27:36.047)
What's the what's so so I don't I I mean, and I know I've done a lot of ranking here, but for me, all of these conversations are not indictments on the free market who wants to, you know, produce the toys that the people will buy. Sure. But for me as a parent, for me as a neighbor, for me as an uncle, for me, you know, is is to ask those questions of Am I contributing to the hindering of the natural development of a little human?
Cameron (27:47.64)
Mm-mm. Yeah.
Nathan (28:04.984)
And then so the question is for me, not for the world.
Cameron (28:11.48)
You're starting with the man in the mirror, as that great philosopher Michael Jackson said. But I think that is helpful. And it's worth pondering. We'll have more to say on the subject. Think more on these things. There is there will be new developments. We'll hear more about this strange world that we live in. But I think again, the big challenge is often just to be a person.
Nathan (28:16.569)
Yeah.
Cameron (28:42.316)
in a world that does feel increasingly I don't know if the word is even impersonal, but just it feels increasingly
Nathan (28:49.988)
Constricted.
Cameron (28:51.19)
It's constricted science fiction dystopian. But anyway, thank you for for hanging with us. And I am I'm I'm sure so I don't know whether you can hear it, Nathan, but my there there are quite a few, there are guests in my home and there are quite a high pitched noises happening downstairs. I assume everybody's okay. But of one thing I can of one thing I can I can assure you, Nathan and listeners, there is no AI down there. Those are actual those are real little little interactions.
Nathan (29:07.941)
Yeah.
Nathan (29:15.216)
Those are real children screaming.
Cameron (29:18.892)
Between between children and and and and other guest children in the house. Yes. So the screams are real. Isn't that isn't that reassuring? You've been listening to Thinking Out Loud, a podcast where we think out loud about current events and Christian hope.
Nathan (29:26.862)
Yeah.
Cameron (29:36.15)
Hey, if you like this, that's great. Please like, share, and subscribe. Tell people about it. Spread the word. If you'd like to support us and the work that we do, you can do that by going to www.toltogether.com.