Is Pop Music Satanic? Discernment, Idolatry, and Christian Theology in Modern Culture

In this episode, we talk about how pop music can be some of the most satanic stuff on the market. This will be helpful to you as you think about a lot of the entertainment that we just casually take in without thinking too carefully about it. And we try to maintain a balance of being discerning, but not too curmudgeonly. We'll let you be the judge of whether we succeed or not, or whether we just sound like too old.

parents. Like, share and subscribe as always. And if you'd like to support the work we do, you can do that by going to www.toltogether.com.

Nathan (00:08)

In this episode, Cameron and I come in guns blazing, angry tongs, I accused Cameron of being his mom. It's going to get good. We've been hashing this out for about 25 minutes and then we're like, wait, stop. We need to re we need to record this so everybody else can help us get this right. All right, Cameron, the, the, the, the, energy is here. Make your case.

Cameron (00:24)

stop, collaborate, and listen. Just kidding.

So not too long ago, Billy Corgan of the Smashing Pumpkins, he has a podcast now, Billy Corgan has always liked to talk. And so now he has an ideal venue to talk to other rock stars. He made a statement that went viral and I think it's actually quite profound. He annoyed a lot of people, also very Billy Corgan of him to do, but he said that basically the most overtly satanic music out there is pop music. And the case that he makes, I want to try to represent him well, is that pop

music as distinct from alternative music. And if you know anything about most, I'm assuming that a lot of our listeners will at least be somewhat familiar with the Smashing Pumpkins. If you're around me and Nathan's age, you'll know the Smashing Pumpkins, know, Siamese Dream, Melancholy and Infinite Sadness. Those are both fantastic records. And Billy Corgan's voice is unique, and I'm just going to stick to that. It's unique. Some people...

Nathan (01:23)

I mean, smashing pumpkins is so well known that

I've heard of them. So, I mean, that's...

Cameron (01:28)

So

that is probably, in pop culture terms, one of the biggest compliments that we could give to the Smashing Pumpkins. Hey, even Nathan Rittenhouse, the Wendell Berry of West Virginia has heard of them. hey, your success, Billy Corgan, well done. But he said that pop music is overtly satanic because what it does is it explicitly puts forth an idolatrous facade.

Nathan (01:40)

It's.

Cameron (01:56)

That's what he says. So a picture of a person who is flawless, beautiful, perfect, and that audiences, because it's so benign, such a beautiful, upbeat kind of presentation, swallow that and believe that. Obvious examples we could point to right now, although I'm not going to name as many because I don't, I just cringe when I see gentlemen our age.

talking about young pop stars. So don't want to do too much of that, but you think of Taylor Swift, the most, certainly one of the most popular artists in the world right now. So that's what he has in mind as distinct from alternative music, which tends to not give you a picture of flawlessness, but tends to present more confrontational music. As Billy Corgan says, warts and all. So I think, like I said, I think this is actually quite profound. I would

I would add to it a little bit. would say that the other piece I would add is that you've got the idolatrous piece, the idea of presenting a literal idol, supposedly flawless and that this facade is accepted by many people. But I would also say that pop music has the ability because it's so upbeat, because it sounds so sugary and benign, it has the ability to smuggle in some of the darkest, most

outright selfish, most explicitly hedonistic stuff that is out there. Whereas more confrontational music tends to be, not always, but tends to be more honest, tends to deal with more serious issues of life, tends to sometimes be almost like a sort of protest art. This is certainly true of early punk rock. This is certainly true of lot of heavy metal, which is, but interestingly enough, lot of those kinds of

Those genres are often viewed with suspicion. They're seen as subversive, dangerous, anti-authority, but yeah.

Nathan (03:53)

Well, okay, so, this is why, well,

let's back up for people who don't know because I mean, you have a dog in this fight coming into this, think, you know, so you definitely grew up with a ⁓ musical taste that was outside of the Christian missionary kid world. Is that fair to put it that way? But,

Cameron (04:15)

I grew up with a musical taste that was expressly forbidden in my household. My mom actually, when I was, this is relevant, I'll put this in here real quickly because it's funny for me to say this now as a man in my 40s, but in also much to the chagrin of my parents, would, especially my mom would say, one day you'll outgrow all of this.

Nathan (04:20)

Yeah, okay, so.

Cameron (04:40)

All this time later, it certainly doesn't look that way. But I remember vividly being a young boy of about 10, 11 years old and stumbling on House of Pain. And I remember I grew up in Austria and this was called, this was in English, House of Pain on FM4. Last I checked, I think this thing still exists because I looked it up once. I was just curious. And this was a show that aired Monday nights, 10 PM, and they played heavy metal music. And this is the first time, the first time I heard it, I thought,

I didn't know they made music like this. This is so loud. This is the guy is that guy growling. He sounds like a monster. And instantly I was hooked for better or for worse. And then my mom heard this stuff and just said her words were no, that's anti authority. is it. So I was I was forbidden to listen to heavy metal was for Bolton couldn't go there.

Nathan (05:19)

Ha

Okay. So, so, so you're proving

my, you're proving my point. So this is where Cameron is coming from. And I think as you maybe developed more philosophically and in your pop cultural analysis, moved to America and you started like analyzing what was considered to be acceptable music. That, you, you continue to do this to this day and be like, yeah, but this song is actually more dangerous than what was clearly out of bounds. But this version.

Cameron (05:47)

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Nathan (05:56)

with its ⁓ cute, catchy beat is perfectly palatable and swallowable by American evangelicalism. These lyrics might be growled, but do more to engage with reality than this fantasy of breaking up with my high school boyfriend, whatever. And so you have a chip on your shoulder coming into this. And I think rightly so if I'm arguing your case for you here.

Cameron (06:23)

Yeah. Well, one thing that stands out right away was, so right before I moved to the States, one of the bands who were really big at the time was a band called Third Eye Blind, which some will remember from their first record was a huge hit, but the song Semi Charmed Kind of Life. That was number one in America. Cause I used, I know this because I used to listen to Casey's Top 40. Remember that Shaggy from Scooby Doo that Casey's Top 40. I used to listen to that. And I thought, this is what they're listening to in America. I hated most of the music on there. Absolutely hated it because my mom said, you better

You better strap in because in America, like really, they like Mariah Carey. And you know what? She was right at the time. They did. And they liked all this pop music that I absolutely hated. But I remember listening to this song, Semi-Charm Kind of Life, really catchy rock song. And then realizing a significant portion of the lyrics are about, you know, I took the hit that I was given, then I bumped again, then I bumped again. Do a crystal meth, it'll lift you up till you break. Okay. So he's in this very upbeat.

bouncy, fun rock song singing about taking crystal meth and getting high. And I thought, okay. And we're all just singing along like, ⁓ it's a great summer tune, isn't it? So that's one kind of soft example of the kind of thing I have in mind. Yeah.

Nathan (07:33)

Okay. let

me show, let me say where I'm coming from here. I grew up in a place that didn't have internet also only had radio, one radio station. Sometimes there's AM channel from 7 AM to 7 PM. Like it, signed out and then it went to static. mean, it was amazing if not, if you wanted to listen to music. basically the amount of like it was somewhere in the range of hymns ⁓ are kind of what. So yeah, I didn't grow up in this world, but I would say.

Cameron (07:49)

Yeah.

Nathan (08:02)

that my mom could have figured all of this out 35 years ago. And she would have put her finger right on it from, and that's why I was jokingly earlier when you're like, well, you know, some of this modern pop music is really more satanic than I'm like, yeah, but I think your mom. saw, I'm, this is why I called you like you're sounding like your mom. There's a sense in which you didn't grow out of the taste for the tune, but you have, think. Christianly and morally developed into a sense of like, wait a second, let's slow down here.

and be a little bit of aware. You know, my cousins joked like our moms were way on the Disney way before it was cool to point out that there might be some unsavory themes being propagated to young children. ⁓ so, so that's, that's the humorous side that I want to bring into this is like, I think there will be a lot of people who are listening to this being like, well, yeah, obviously, ⁓ we've known this, but that's not quite the point that's being made here because our smashing pumpkins savant here is not doing this out of deep.

theological reflection. He's just pointing out a truism of what it is that pop music is and how it influences our world.

Cameron (09:07)

Mm-hmm.

Well, we should probably back up a little bit and do some rudimentary definitions. They're not necessarily going to be hard academic definitions, but just to serve the purposes of this conversation, because plenty of people will point out, smashing pumpkins is pop music. Third Eye Blind is pop music. Rihanna is pop music. It's all pop music. Taylor Swift, it's all pop. Sabrina Carpenter, it's all pop.

Nathan (09:33)

It's popular. mean,

is pop and popular synonymous? I mean, we would think that they are, and there's a shortening there, they're... Can you...

Cameron (09:44)

Yeah. So all I'm going to do here is break in some basic rock journalism categories. So again, this is not hard academic stuff, but it's kind of a know it when you see it kind of deal. So there obviously people would recognize that on a certain level, on a general level, songs that are in a certain time, you know, range from, I don't know, three to five minutes say or so, and are catchy, all of them qualify as pop music in a certain sense. Okay.

But we can also make meaningful distinctions with them. we can say, well, Kanye West is not the same as the Smashing Pumpkins. And Smashing Pumpkins are not the same as Taylor Swift. so we can, and Geese, if you let, Geese is a newer rock band who I happen to think are pretty fantastic. These are all, so there are differences here. All popular music. So I think in one sense, the broad definition would be yes, pop and popular are synonymous. But then we need to make genre distinctions.

And when you make the genre distinctions, those distinctions matter. They are significant. So heavy metal and basically all of the music that falls under the alternative category is going to be distinct from pop music that is largely sung with clear vocals.

and that has lots of electronic music behind it, beats and things like that, versus a band that play their own instruments, they sing with harsh vocals sometimes. I'll stop there for a second. Tell me if this is making sense to you.

Nathan (11:10)

Okay.

Yeah, well, so here's my confusion

is that and here's the distinction that I make in my mind. So take an alternative band. They're trying to communicate something philosophically. So yes, you liked the alternative music for the, the, the musical style, but there was also a, I mean, you are also reading the existentialist during this time and Camus and Sartre. I mean, it, it all fit. was a broader, my vision, my version of pop music is this music that people listen to not to think about.

Cameron (11:31)

Mm-hmm, yep.

Sure.

Nathan (11:48)

And don't they don't actually listen to it. It's it's noise. And the reason that I have this view is because so when I was in college, my work study was in the fitness center. So I was in the weight room. I was in charge of changing like back when TVs had remotes and you had to go around and change them. And then I like disinfected the equipment and I spotted people who were lifting, but by and large I could like read like 45 minutes out of an hour shift and only did like I was, I was there at emerging. But so it's like you're

Cameron (12:01)

Sure.

Nathan (12:18)

I don't know, K99 or whatever, don't just making something up. And it was just like the same 15 songs on repeat and nobody was listening to the music. was just loud. There was a rhythm to it and it seemed like transition music. It's the kind of music that you would hear before a basketball game was being played. It's why you're coming through the lobby of the gym. It's while, ⁓ to me, it didn't, it didn't feel like serious music at all. Like nobody was

Cameron (12:30)

Yeah. ⁓

Reflective.

Nathan (12:47)

So that's why I'm saying I don't feel like anybody was listening to it. It was just noise.

Cameron (12:50)

Okay, let's

talk about that for a second. That's part of the post-industrial world that we live in. So you can also go to a restaurant or you can get in an elevator where they will play symphonies and jazz songs that are now just background music. But at one point, jazz for instance, jazz was almost like punk rock. was incredibly rebellious, it was dangerous, people were freaked out by it, it had a very subversive culture surrounding it.

Nathan (13:08)

Well,

Cameron (13:17)

Now it's, a classy restaurant or a nice elevator. know, their blood, sweat and tears went into this music. And now it's just background music. So that's...

Nathan (13:25)

Well, it handles Messiah

was scandalous because it put religious words to secular music at the time. But the difference there is that that thing is like over two hours long and people paid to go to theaters and sit for two hours to listen to the development of a piece, which to me seems categorically different than.

Cameron (13:33)

Right.

Okay. But what I'm trying to say here, right.

No, it's not though, because here's the thing. Here's what I'm saying. People will use snippets of Handel's Messiah now in silly comedies. Does that mean that Handel's Messiah isn't a serious piece of music? Well, no. So just because something is played in a gym and people mindlessly work out to it and just use it functionally for the beat doesn't necessarily invalidate the artistry behind the music.

Some music is purely functional. We've talked about this on the podcast before. Some music is designed purely to get people moving and dancing or working out. And it just has this propulsive beat and that's the, or we're speaking a certain way. mean, there, there, there is such a thing back in the day, we talked about this as work songs that were meant for people working on railway tracks or basket weaving.

Nathan (14:17)

or worshiping in a certain way.

Okay,

but come into this from my perspective, Cameron, say you didn't grow up with any of this and then you just started with the top 40 list and I could sit there and listen to the words and be like, this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. I can't believe that this is somehow marketable or that people choose this or like, I mean, to me it's just like a total like, I have no idea what's going on here, but none of this is entertaining to me at all.

Cameron (14:52)

Sure.

Well, there I would say that's not necessarily a mock, a mark against pop music. That's a mark against most of the art that comes out in any given time. Most, well, no, it's not against, no, but most of, most of what we celebrate in a given cultural moment will be regarded as dross and forgotten later on. Most of the books that are published, most of the articles that are written, most of the songs that are written, the small ones that survive, it's time that, that, you know, when they stand the test of time. So, and some artists evolve. Let's, the Beatles.

Nathan (15:00)

Me.

But is that?

Cameron (15:25)

came a long, long way from she loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah, to hey Jude, hello, goodbye, and writing some of the great songs. And they truly are. They're great songs. They're pop songs. They're really fast. They go down real smooth. They're real catchy, but they're great songs. Same with the Beach Boys. Brian Wilson is an amazing composer and songwriter. Good Vibrations is like, this is like, what planet did this guy come from?

It's amazing and it's pop music. I'm just, I'm not, but most, but, and so it remains true to say though, nevertheless, that most pop music is completely ephemeral, will be forgotten, and a lot of it is incredibly stupid. So, and a lot of it is incredibly harmful as well. So you're not wrong about that.

Nathan (16:09)

Well, it's low as con... so, so, in my mind, it's,

it's low as common denominator stuff. So, think about the difference between a Van Gogh original and a, and a, and, and, and a, and a pillowcase at Target that says, Sweet Home, with a little artistic thing on it. One of those is going to sell one, and one of those is going to sell 300,000 or whatever. And so, there's, there's a sense in which...

Cameron (16:19)

Mmm... Mmm... ⁓

Nathan (16:38)

the, it's.

Cameron (16:38)

Yeah, we got some

disagreements here, my friend, which is good. It's fun. It'll be fun for our listeners.

Nathan (16:45)

Because you actually do enjoy music that I would be like, I don't get it.

Cameron (16:51)

Yes. I'll, I'll, and I'll just out myself here on some of this stuff. This is kind of a guilty pleasure, so I think Carly Rae Jepsen's album emotion is fantastic. And it is, I am a little self conscious saying that, but I think there's, there's some, think, so I, I like some real pop pop as well, not tons of it. And I'm pretty, I'm pretty sparing in how I, I like some of Lorde's songs, her early songs, songs a lot as well. But I don't think that.

There's a difference. think you can make a meaningful distinction between accessibility and lowest common denominator. The Beatles are highly accessible. wouldn't call them. Yeah. So, so well, for instance, the Beatles are very accessible. I would not call them lowest common denominator because when you actually look at their, and some of their songs are very simple, but they're the craftsmanship in them is absolutely superb. And.

Nathan (17:28)

Okay, I'm willing to be convinced in that category.

Cameron (17:50)

They are beautiful, sometimes simple, sometimes more complex, but they're beautiful songs that go down smoothly. And so I don't think accessibility is necessarily a bad thing. You can apply this to other mediums. You can apply this to, you know, films. There's some films that are highly convoluted and complex and some that are simple, but still very powerful. So accessibility is not necessarily a bad thing.

Nathan (18:04)

Okay, well, so, but maybe.

Shh, shh,

okay, so but yeah, but you changed my definition slightly and I'll agree with you on the terms in which you put that but the Maybe take something like ⁓ Hey Jude which speaks to a human a human element that is thoughtful pensive and in that way the the common denominator is humanity and So that's an accessibility

where I remember like going to middle school, it's recess or gym and they're playing music and I'm like, if any of us said these lyrics out loud, we would be expelled from school. And it's basically all about human bodies and what human bodies do with each other. I mean, it's very, it's very base and it's in very low creativity and very popular. That's what I'm saying when I say there's a.

Cameron (18:52)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, sure.

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (19:04)

To me, is a categorical difference there. One is like a ⁓ pensive call to collective human experience and thought. And the other is just instinctual human ⁓ vanity and power and bling.

Cameron (19:22)

Yes. Yeah. But I can give you, can set side by side current examples of songs that deal with sexuality, some of which are really just crass and bass and some of which are a little bit more in the profound category. So I would say on the one hand, you could have people like Al Green, Marvin Gaye and D'Angelo, whom we just lost recently, very sadly. All of them sing about love and yes, sexuality.

in terms that are non crass. would also include, sometimes he gets quite explicit, but I would include Prince in this category as well. But on the other hand, then you have songs from Megan Thee Stallion or Nicki Minaj. Yeah, we don't need to say any more than that that are not profound, but very frank. that's putting it lightly. So I would say, no, these are all popular artists and they're all making pop

Nathan (20:12)

⁓ okay, so wait a second.

Cameron (20:19)

music, but the quality is there. are some real distinctions in quality there. We got to move on from this section pretty soon and get back to it. But yeah.

Nathan (20:26)

So, well, it's because I'm

not sure if you're arguing for or against your original thesis here. Because the original thesis was, that pop music can easily be more satanic. So, you've given a lot of, I think, good counter examples. Now that you've made the case, and I think, yeah, I think you're arguing the case of like, hey, we're not painting with a broad brush and dismissing everything here. You've given some good examples. Now...

Cameron (20:44)

No, I'm not deviating from that.

Nathan (20:54)

shift into making more of the case, think, of your original thesis of saying, hey, there are some dangers here.

Cameron (20:56)

Mm-hmm.

Well, the operative word and how you said it there was can be. So I think pop music, real airy fairy light pop music can be much more dangerous because it goes down so smoothly. So I'm saying something a little different from, I'm adding to what Billy Corgan said. There's the idolatrous facade piece that presents this flawless image that's highly destructive. Yeah, I agree with that. But also because it comes in that kind of a package.

It goes down real smoothly and what's there is often really can often be very inherently selfish music. so, I mean, I think one way of spelling out something that is satanic would be the more, the more selfish it is, the more explicitly selfish it is, self-indulgent, selfish, the more satanic it can be. So pop music is uniquely poised to smuggle that in, in a way that heavy metal,

alternative or more confrontational music, which people already have their heckles up for, isn't. I'll pause there. Does that make sense?

Nathan (22:08)

Mm-hmm. So, yeah,

well, I mean, I'm wondering if are we saying anything more than, be careful about the words that you repeatedly sing.

Cameron (22:20)

Well, not really. mean, I think, yeah, be careful about the stuff that just goes down very smoothly. This isn't just true of music. This is true, especially any kind of art that isn't confrontational. Hey, that's not necessarily a bad thing. I happen to like intense stuff, but not everybody does and that's great. Good. But romantic comedies, for instance, it's well known that they often celebrate adultery.

and dishonesty and total selfishness in ways that would be, I mean, most people, if it were presented in any other setting would be seen as highly problematic and obscene. But because they're really, you know, they're presented in very adorable scenarios and everybody, you know, it's a hallmark style presentation. They get away with it. But.

more confrontational forms of art are often dealing with the difficult side of life, whether it's depression or injustice. I remember it was an eye-opening moment for me, Nathan, when I began to recognize that a lot of the bands I was gravitating toward were angsty, yes, but they were also very interested in politics. No, they were sometimes a little bit not very sophisticated about it, but they were interested in justice. They cared about what was going on.

Nathan (23:38)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (23:47)

I mean, to give another example, the Smashing Pumpkins, for instance, one of their very well-known songs off of Siamese Dream is called Disarm. That is a song that is tackling the issue of abortion. That's a pretty big theme for a young band to be talking about, and it's a heavy, weighty song, and it's well done, and ⁓ it's a thoughtful, very humane piece of songwriting. And I think...

Or even a band like Nirvana who had a song like Polly, which was based on a very harrowing story of a woman who was kidnapped and terribly mistreated. That kind of thing where it's taking you into a place where you're having to deal with reality and it's not an escape from reality. Whereas the stuff that's more of an airy-fairy escape from reality, fantasy in the bad sense of that word.

As in some empty idolatrous pursuit in your mind that takes you out of reality and leads to irresponsible behavior, ways of thinking. ⁓ Pop music can, not always, but it's uniquely poised to cater to that. And that's what makes, that's part of what makes it so seductive and dangerous. Yeah.

Nathan (25:00)

Okay, let me.

Let me see if

I can make an analogy from a different category and you tell me if this fits. So, one time in college, I was working at the summer camp. ⁓ we had an exchange student from Germany, I think maybe, ⁓ and we were teaching the staff how to teach kids to play the game, capture the flag. So I don't know, game capture flag most probably familiar. can, you can look up the details on that and there are all sorts of variations of it, but I remember this student watching the whole thing and he said, so wait a second.

So this is an activity where we teach kids how to steal.

And we're like, wow, it's a, it's a, it's a game though. mean, so, so it's, mean, so when you, when you step back, we're just having fun. And so I don't think there's anything wrong with the game capture the flag. think it is fun, but there is a degree to which if you step back, you're like, this is a strategy game about how do you steal something from another group of people? That, that is what this, this is at the end of the day. Um, and so there's, there's, is there an analogous sense here where we're saying.

Cameron (25:39)

Hmm

Yeah, but we're just having fun.

Hmm.

Nathan (26:08)

it's just a pop song. And there are degrees of like, it is just fun. But also there's an element when you step back from it, you're like, wait a second, but here's what's encased within this category that we don't teach our kids how to steal. But if it's a camp game or, know, it's a large group activity, you know, it's different or like we would never say these things to our kids. But hey, if a pop singer sings it on our radio station five times a day, so be it.

Cameron (26:20)

Mm.

Okay, here's where I, you did it. Here's where I'll sound like my mom. So I don't want to be the killjoy. enjoy, enjoy pop culture. I enjoy shows and I don't just sit there and say, Hey, you see how grossly immoral that actually is? I try not to do that. Sometimes maybe I've done that in past, but there is no such thing as a cultural artifact that is quote, just a cultural artifact.

So it's not just an episode of Gossip Girl. It's not just a Sabrina Carpenter song. These things are, so what I'm trying to say is they're not all bad, but they are not morally neutral. And they are, many of them, they're not merely merely. And they're highly, most of them are highly seductive. there's, so I think I'm also, I'm not casting aspersions on anybody here, but I'm.

Nathan (27:20)

They're not merely merely.

Cameron (27:36)

It's also true to say that right now, uniquely to our moment, we live in an age where you have a lot of high production values and a lot of kitsch. High production values and a lot of trash. Just because something is out there and because it's, would, some of the, and I'm not naming names, but some of the stuff out there, I would look at it and say, this is shallow, this is superficial, this is empty, this is hollow. There's still expert skill and craftsmanship that went behind it.

Nathan (27:45)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (28:01)

There's expert skill and craftsmanship in the marketing campaign. There's expert skill and craftsmanship in the videos. So in other words, yeah, you might be able to dismiss it and say, this is just stupid. But if you're watching it, it's doing some work on you. That's incredibly important to recognize. So yeah, I would say, yeah.

Nathan (28:16)

⁓ yeah. The entire thing is...

I'm saying it is all strategically crafted. was thinking of you know, if you go back and look at Walt Disney and the original Bambi ⁓ Movie is he actually had dead fawns Flown in from Maine to look at what does an actual small deer look like and he's like no this will not work We cannot have a realistic representation of a small deer the movie won't work We have to have a disproportionate eyeball to skull size here in order for Bambi to have these big You know

Cameron (28:31)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Nathan (28:50)

baby face kind of looking eyes in order to get the emotional and so you're like, it's a cartoon. It's like, no, there were like dead animals flown around the country in order to try to maximize eyeball to skull ratios with the animators in order to get a certain effect going on the and so some of the stuff that we think is just merely like, that's just the way it turned out. It's like, no, it was deeply strategically crafted to have the effect that it does. ⁓ So there's just another thought there. But can I summarize one of the things?

Cameron (28:55)

wow.

Mm-hmm.

It's apt,

yeah. Well, you made me think of this because Walt Disney was also very concerned about in the Disney parks, no unnecessary intrusions of reality being there in the fantasy land. So trying to keep all the garbage and trash completely out of, know, find ways to strategically keep it out of the visual field of all the people who were there. And there's an essayist I like named John Jeremiah Sullivan who

Nathan (29:20)

No, go ahead.

Cameron (29:48)

took a trip to Disney World and, you know, like all thoughtful, annoying, dopes, had a horrible time there. And talked about that, he called that manicured emptiness. Anyway, I thought you would find that amusing.

Nathan (30:00)

I'm on board with manicured emptiness, but the fact of the matter is it's manicured That's I think that's the point of the entire what we're saying here and so a sentence that I said to my boys who were up to something the other day and they were just joking around and I said recognize that what you pretend is actually practice and Then I was thinking about that sentence later of like and they and the thing they were doing was totally innocuous It was funny at the time

Cameron (30:04)

Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yeah.

Nathan (30:28)

little bit but it was something they Reflectively probably shouldn't have done and so I was just using line of like hey what you pretend like you're doing I know you were just pretending to do this but what we pretend really is practice and Then later as I was reflecting on that myself. I recognized and also What we use is entertainment sets the parameters for what we consider to be morally permissible and So there's there is a sense in which some of the things we talk about being desensitized to something

We can switch from like the sexuality of pop lyrics to maybe violence in film to say there are things that we would say, well, we would never do that, but we're totally okay watching somebody do that. That does over time change the way. what we, what we count as entertainment does set the parameters for what we think is morally permissible. Because if you're watching something and you don't think it's morally permissible, you would hit stop. so that's a question for people who are listening. When was the last time you stopped a song?

Cameron (31:06)

All right. Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (31:28)

YouTube video or a movie because you're like this is morally outside of the out-of-bounds and If not, then your entertainment is within is within the framework of what you might think in certain conditions are morally permissible But we don't do that because we don't think it's morally forming for us. It's just entertainment. It's merely entertainment We don't see it as is thought pattern and habit forming in our lives And so that's something that I want to be thinking about is what are the things that I'm pretending?

Cameron (31:36)

Hmm. That's a searching question. Yeah.

Nathan (31:57)

fantasizing what goes through our mind like I was just pretend but that actually is practicing a pattern in a rhythm and then secondly what if my entertainment really does shape the the view and the contours of what I find to be morally permissible and then when you add those two things together entertainment and fantasy Again, we don't want to sound curmudgeoning because I know there we've talked about the value of fantasy and all at the same time recognizing that it is shaping and forming and training us

to inhabit the world in a certain way. And I think that there's no coincidence then that a lot of Paul's language, therefore set your mind on things above, ⁓ focus on this, look at this, where Christ is seated, that the direction and orientation of our gaze and of our focus, and that's why worship is so important, is because the things that we repeatedly say in our mind and with our mouths shape and form our character. And it would be weird to think that that only happens on a Sunday morning or in our morning prayer time.

and not with the song that we sang five times throughout the rest of the day. And so let's just, think this whole fun, not real, real disagreement that Cameron and I are having is I think at the end of the day, just a call for consistency and a recognition of the patterns of behavior and the things that we take in, whether it be visual audio, subconsciously in the back of our mind, things that we really sit down and listen to or things that are just floating through the ether as we're ⁓ waltzing through the world all do matter.

And it's not fear-mongering, it's just, let's be realistic about what shapes and forms us.

Cameron (33:33)

Yeah, well said, Nathan. And yeah, by fantasy, we don't mean Lord of the Rings, Wrinkle in Time. We mean a willing and irresponsible departure from reality. That's the bad sense of fantasy. And we have to be careful because when we do that on a repeated basis, yeah, it is shaping us. And indeed, is actually, we're not careful shaping our patterns of behavior. So Nathan is right to point that out. We're calling for discernment here, not curmudgeonliness.

not being a killjoy and certainly not being that obnoxious guy who points to all of the inconsistencies and immoralities in pop culture. Don't do that. Don't be that guy, but be the discerning, be the discerning person to the best of our abilities. through prayerfully considering them. All right, that's enough from us today. You've been listening to Thinking Out Loud, a podcast where we think out loud about current events and Christian hope.