Why Pro-Death ideology Is Gaining Support: Nathan and Cameron on the MAID Act
Cameron (00:00)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co-host, Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:05)
And I'm your co-host, Nathan Rittenhouse. In today's episode, we talk about made medical assistance and dined and the theological implications of that, but also the societal and cultural elements that I think will embrace this even for those who see themselves as Christians. Cameron and I have a bit of a dispute. think you'll enjoy listening through this, but at the end of it, want us, everyone listening to walk away with a deeper sense of responsibility for caring for life across the spectrum. If you like the work that we're doing, you can support it by sharing, talking about it, subscribing to our content or you can donate by visiting www.toltogether.com.
Cameron (00:08)
Some of you may have seen that a law has just been, that has been instated in New York City. I believe that this as of this recording this week for the whole state. ⁓ statewide law in New York for medically assisted suicide. This is quite a development. And I think the specific stipulations are you must be terminally ill with six months left to live.
Nathan (00:17)
Whole state, yeah, statewide.
Cameron (00:37)
So this is certainly, this is something I think that's quite this discussion whenever it's come up, usually the immediate nation in question is Canada, where I think that this has been kind of at the forefront of that. And also the other place we think of is Amsterdam or the Netherlands. So Nathan, when I was... Yeah.
Nathan (00:56)
And are other states that have pieces of this in there.
what's the MAID Act, Medical Assistance in Dying, MAID. So this is, it's been around, more is coming. Cameron and I have a difference of opinion on how this might get enacted within Christian theology, but continue your thought first, Cameron.
Cameron (01:03)
Yeah. MAID, yeah.
Well, that's what I
want to immediately talk about. So when Nathan brought this to my attention, we were talking through it, you said something Nathan that I, yeah, that I thought was a bit alarming. You said you believe that this will be embraced by Christians fairly quickly, didn't you? Something along those lines. And I thought, no, so theologically conservative Christians are going to embrace this. So talk a little bit about why.
Nathan (01:42)
Let me make my speculative case.
Let me, ⁓ so I mean, on, on most, ⁓ bioethical issues, the primary, the primary, ⁓ religious voices would be Catholic church. And for some, that's probably because they still remain as a cohesive institution that can make collective statements. ⁓ and, and, and I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of, consistent pro-life Christians out there who would say, Hey, this is overstepping the boundaries.
Cameron (01:44)
Yeah, make your speculative case there.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Nathan (02:11)
of what it means to be human in light of ⁓ people being made in the image of God and understanding the boundaries of who the author and giver of life is and what it means to taking care for life are consistent across the board. That being said, you look at something like this. So in this case, terminal illness with less than six months, you have to have three different doctors sign off on it. think at least one being a psychiatrist to make sure you're of sound mind in doing this, that you
aren't in kind of any duress that you're not being forced or pressured into it. It's a pretty tidy as far as the end phrased as the most American thing ever, the right to die. I think as soon as you frame something as a right, everybody will be for it. and the, the reason for this is, is that if you think about here, I'm getting out of my skis and so listener helped me think through this is the pro life movement.
as we currently know it, primarily a theological movement? Or does it have pretty deep political tones to it as well? And what are the degrees to which we apply our pro-lifeness consistently throughout the life of somebody? So when I started pushing back on this, Cameron, you're like, well, I do know some people who are like very pro-life when it comes to abortion, but are also super pro-death penalty, for example. ⁓
Cameron (03:33)
Yep.
Nathan (03:34)
And I said, actually, think a lot of our framing and again, I'm not saying that there aren't Christians who think who believe this theologically accurately and hold it true, but I'm saying I think there's a there are a huge number of like, of like cultural Christians who will say our our pro our feudal pro-life position is that you're infringing upon the individual rights of the unborn child if you take their life prematurely.
you're violating the right of the individual. So just run that to the other side of saying the right of the individual to decide when to die. I mean, who hasn't watched somebody suffer through the last? I mean, the empathy, the compassion, the arguments are all there. think even the governor of New York said we're not we're not speeding up.
How do you say? We're not shortening life or shortening death. And so it's like, this is absolutely going to happen. Why wouldn't you just help somebody move quickly through the end of that? I think the personal rights language, the aversion to suffering, and to say that this is somebody who is making a decision for themselves, those, I think, are stronger cultural factors on the outcome of the way in which we make moral decisions.
than any theology that I think is in the deep culture of where we live right now.
Cameron (05:02)
Just to add a few factors that I think make this more complex and difficult today, think there would just be developments in the medical field. So, 100 years ago, we wouldn't necessarily be having these discussions on this level because we did not have any way of prolonging life in certain cases. We can do that more so now.
than ever. First of all, people live longer now in general. Now that's gone down a bit in recent years, but by and large, I can say without qualification, in the modern world, the lifespan is extended now. Every development in technology, every leap forward brings with it also new quandaries and ethical issues.
And so being able to extend life also with machinery and to keep people alive has introduced its share of complications as well. look at death differently these days. look at death, medical death differently these days because of that. But when we, and also I think what you mentioned, Nathan is really important. Let's talk a little bit about our views of two things that I think are really important here. You've mentioned them both actually. Freedom.
and our view of our societal view of happiness. think freedom is largely, we see that in terms of self-determination. And so you brought up the rights language and we are most of us, mean, we, are champions. If we are Western people, if we are Americans, we are champions of individual rights. I am. And I know you are too, Nathan. I mean, we're, to a, yeah. So I'll stop there for a second. Yes.
Nathan (06:58)
throw justice in here. So you can say to the unborn
human, it's an injustice to impose this on them. But then we're going to turn around on the other side and say that it's an injustice to deny this to the individual at the other end of life. As long as we frame the moral agent as the one who's receiving the outcome of the action, we're almost always fine with that.
Cameron (07:12)
Yes.
Yes.
Nathan (07:24)
We would we would be okay if we had a way to communicate with an unborn child and say do you want to be born? And they said no We would certainly be okay culturally speaking. I'm saying here with them being aborted Right as long as the individual is the one making the choice that is the that is the pinnacle of authority
Cameron (07:39)
Yes, correct.
Correct. The individual is the pinnacle of authority.
Nathan (07:48)
Unless you're weirdly religious.
Cameron (07:48)
an important phrase right there.
Unless you're weirdly religious. So let's get weirdly religious just for the sake of clarity for a moment. If you're thinking like a Christian here, and I'm gonna take for granted that there are many people who itself identify as Christians who don't necessarily think Christianly. And I don't think it's because they're bad people necessarily. I don't think it's because they're thoughtless people. think just it takes real effort to not.
just drift along with any culture that you find yourself a part of. mean, this is one of the basic challenges of being in the world and not of it. And so just a real quick aside here, I think I'm mentioning this more and more. think an important question today is what, if you're a Christian, what do you do? Not what do you believe, what is it you do? What are the habits that distinguish God's people down the ages? I I look at three very basic ones. You can say other things, but
the three most basic Christian habits. If you're a Christian, what you do is you pray, you read your Bible, you go to church. If you want to get little crunchier, you can add in the sacraments, but you can group that under church, that's part of worship. But this is what God's people do and have done down the ages. Now, the fact that all three of those, Nathan, that I mentioned,
Nathan (09:13)
but we,
but we work to manifest the changes that happen in those actions into the rest of our lives.
Cameron (09:21)
Absolutely. all, but all three of those, Nathan are not basic anymore. That's why I mentioned them because all three are viewed routinely, at least based on my conversations. And if you look at statistics are rude, are viewed as expendable. Or in some cases auxiliary. I think of the, often think of the quote from, from Martin Luther where, and I'll get it. I won't get the right, the precise phrasing, but something like, Lord, I have
Nathan (09:36)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (09:48)
so many tasks today, I better spend an extra two hours on my knees in prayer." That's the right kind of posture and priority, but it's the opposite of what I have most of the time. think, I've got too much to do. Well, prayer is going to have to take a back seat because I've got normal, real, real things to do. reading your Bible. mean, that's another thing. mean, most many, if statistics are any indication, yeah, biblical illiteracy is any indication.
Nathan (10:11)
That's not practical.
Cameron (10:16)
Most people who self-identify as Christians in North America are reading their Bibles almost either as a fraction or not at all.
Nathan (10:25)
So, what I hear you saying is you're coming around to my side of this argument. That I think by and large... Not to put words in your mouth, except that's what I'm trying to do. And I'm not doing this with glee. I mean, what I'm laughing about is a very serious thing. But the flip side is, I think that the metrics in the shape of our deep culture and the way in which it is more within the walls of our church than we think, I don't know that there will be the percentage of the mass pushback.
Cameron (10:30)
I'm coming around to your site. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yes, I'll guess.
Nathan (10:54)
that would expect. It's definitely not going to have the equivalent of an abortion side of things. ⁓
Cameron (11:02)
Let me try something on you, Nathan, see if you think this is true. In cultural terms right now, I don't think that there's a very good argument against this law right now. If you're trying to just use cultural terms. There are some arguments, but probably not, I don't think one that anybody's gonna find convincing. What do you think?
Nathan (11:16)
Okay.
Okay, I agree with you completely.
Here's my thought. Is that if you want to make that claim, which I think we're already there,
So, let's just make sure we're at what you're saying. What would be the scientific, cultural, sociological arguments against this? I can think of very few.
Cameron (11:43)
Yeah, I mean I'm hearing crickets right now. mean...
Nathan (11:44)
Other than there might be like,
mean, there are some like ⁓ disability advocacy groups who are saying like, hey, know, people with mental health issues and that kind of thing could be disproportionately ⁓ susceptible to this type of thing. So there's a little bit of that. But what I don't know is, is then where do you draw the line even farther back? Because I think there's a cultural shift in that. The other day, I saw a truck with a bumper sticker that said, shoot your local meth head. ⁓
Cameron (11:57)
affected by the, yeah, sure.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay.
Nathan (12:15)
Okay, what do you want to do with the homeless people? What
do you want to do with the drug addicts? What do you want to do with the people who are healthy, but they just don't have the family to take care of them for them as they age? ⁓ So, what's that brutal phrase that ⁓ efficiency is fact, justice is just a slogan?
Cameron (12:35)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean...
Nathan (12:36)
You know, like these
things change mighty fast is all that I'm saying.
Cameron (12:41)
We're talking
about a very real slippery slope. This is also, if it sounds like we're describing a dystopian science fiction story, science fiction stories are often kind of warning parables about what happens when we take a different view of human life.
Nathan (12:53)
Well, yeah, because when we
when we maximize efficiency, there are humans who aren't a widget producer within like this has happened before. Like we're not make it like the history shows this isn't speculative anymore. And so I'm saying if you don't have a a referent outside of a economic moral matrix, it's going to be hard to say who's
Cameron (13:00)
Mm-hmm.
No, this isn't speculative. Yep.
Nathan (13:21)
Give me a reason that this group of people is valuable or meaning.
Cameron (13:24)
Yes.
So let's talk about this Christianly for just a little bit since Christian thinking can be a little bit rare. If we use our theological categories, we say, well, every human being, first of all, is made by God. So we can start there. Before we get to image of God, we should start made, not self-made, made by God, a creature made by God.
Nathan (13:43)
Creature, creature, we are his sheep, the work of his hands.
Cameron (13:49)
So a phrase that's very helpful here is givenness, the givenness of things. There's the givenness of the universe, the givenness of our lives. So it is a quality that is given, bestowed. If that's true, then we are not our own. Interestingly enough, a phrase actually used in scripture, know, sounds rather biblical. It's profoundly anti-American.
Nathan (14:08)
Sounds rather biblical.
Well,
you were, finish the quote though. You're not your own, you were bought with a price, therefore honor God with your body.
Cameron (14:16)
Yeah, you with a price.
Profoundly anti-American sentiments right there and fly in the face of all of our cultural assumptions. So we're talking if that's true. again, haven't even gotten to, we haven't even gotten to image of God, which is going to be of immense significance here. But if that's true, then we are freedom.
has to be understood as more than simple self-determination or volunteerism. It has to be more than that. And we're not the captains of our own ships. We're not the masters of our destiny. And right. So do we have individual worth and are we moral agents who can make significant decisions? Yes.
Nathan (15:01)
Blasphemy Cameron.
Do we have worth
even when we're suffering and we're not producing anything?
Cameron (15:18)
Do we have worth even when
we're suffering and we're not producing anything? In cultural terms, it's difficult to establish that and that's kind of an understatement. I'm just gonna limit myself to that. In cultural terms, it's difficult to establish that you have real value if you're suffering or maimed or in some way disabled and cannot contribute, aren't a widget, and to use Nathan's phrase there. In biblical terms, none of that
does any damage to your value. None of that, your value is established, but it's established on the basis of your relationship with a maker. It's not established by you. It's not on the basis of anything that you've done. It's not tied to your achievements or your potential or your capabilities.
Nathan (16:06)
So the argument is, is human value intrinsic or derivative? And
Cameron (16:11)
Yes.
Yes.
Nathan (16:14)
Yeah And and that that is like I don't know how to say other than that of like that will frame the moral matrix by which you make decisions on this But the heartstrings I think very much are on how many of us have known people who have died slowly over a long time or who are currently in a lot of pain
Cameron (16:19)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (16:30)
It's going to take a lot to say no to where this is going.
Cameron (16:32)
It is. So
we tend to, in our culture, define happiness as, I teased out a definition at one point and it's kind of escaping my mind a bit, but it's tied loosely, I think, to some sense of subjective satisfaction, but it's also dependent on comfort and ease and convenience. I think that's our societal, our basic societal default.
vision of happiness. What's interesting about that, and I've had people push back, Nathan, maybe this is separate conversation. I've had a lot of thoughtful Christians push back and say happiness isn't a good word. You should use a different word. But happiness, I'm a big believer in not discarding words, but recovering their more robust meaning. And in the ancient world, happiness was synonymous with righteousness.
And that's the, if there's a biblical understanding of happiness, it would be righteousness. That would be also the understanding of ancient Greece. would be blessedness actually. So that's different. Yeah, anyway, I'm going to stop there. Yep.
Nathan (17:36)
Hang on.
That's
important, but I think there's another There's another side of this is like so you're talking about a time in which we had a deeper richer concept of happiness righteousness wholesomeness, I think there's also For the majority of human history. We've also had a more mature vision and view of death and I think that's even just like generationally shifted so well, I was just by ⁓ One of my grandmother's last one have
Cameron (17:59)
That's really important. Yeah. Say more about that.
Nathan (18:08)
I in the hospital to visit her yesterday evening. She's back home and ⁓ it's kind of stuff that there really isn't a medical answer or reason for it. And so I go in and I'm sitting and she's content. She's perfectly fine in her own world as it is. And I said to her, her, so I said, grandma, I've been hearing a lot of interesting stuff. said, what's your diagnosis? And she grinned at me. She said, my diagnosis is that I'm not going to live forever.
I was like, you know, so there's there's that my other grandmother had breast cancer for And she went in and the doctor said look you have less than six months to live if you don't treat this and she's like I'm an old lady This isn't too inconvenient Something's gonna take me out. I think the treatment for this is gonna be worse than that We're just gonna let this roll and she showed back up at the six-month appointment and the guy's like I'm really surprised to see you and she did this for a couple years
Cameron (18:59)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (19:06)
She actually finally died of a stroke. It wasn't the bread. So she had a functional life ending thing for a six month life anything for a couple of years and then died of a stroke. Um, but there was a way in which she wasn't trying to kill herself, but she also was just saying like, Hey, I've lived a great life. My husband's died. I love my kids and my grandkids and it's all this good. And this is the way that things she'd been to a lot of funerals. In fact, she had the order for her sermon, like her service written out. Like this is lady who was very sure she was going to die.
Here are the hymns I want. are the poems. And here's who should say what it went. you know, so who knew? And just leaned into it as we're going to let this thing run its course and we'll see how the end of it goes. ⁓ And that's that's that's knowledge without control. So it's certainly that I'm going to die, but it's not. And I will be the one who dictates the timing of this.
Cameron (20:00)
Yeah. What's interesting, Nathan,
is you use the phrase maturity right there in conjunction with death. And I think one of the hallmarks of maturity is facing reality. But we live in a day and age where it is perfectly possible to just keep putting off any thought of your mortality and
It's also possible at an odd sense for some of us to believe that to sincerely sort of just feel that death is something that happens to everybody else. And then when we, but then when we come, yeah, come to a place where, no, it turns out this really is going to happen to me. It's received with kind of wide-eyed terror. And I'm saying this with, I hope this is coming through with real compassion, but it used to be the case, especially within the church, Nathan, again, thinking Christianly, hey, another thing,
Nathan (20:36)
Well, you're a victim of it.
Cameron (20:56)
Christians think and have always thought a lot about what a good death looks like. And that's not a morbid thing. Christians, you know, if you listen to Christian speakers or sermons or you look at hymns, there's a lot about death in there. A lot about mortality, a lot about the fragile nature of life and this world. And again, it's not morbid. It's a recognition of the human condition, but
Nathan (21:05)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Cameron (21:26)
It's also not unlike certain other places. It's not saying that death has the final say. think in our wider culture, part of what it means for our wider culture to be secular, doesn't mean that everybody's an atheist. It doesn't mean that nobody has any religious impulses or anything like that, the secularization thesis. It's not that. But one way to measure it, Nathan, is that if people think that death is the absolute worst thing that can happen to you.
that really it is curtains, it's total annihilation. That's a secular way of thinking. That's an indication that you do have a thinner view of reality because for Christians, death is not the worst thing that could happen to you. And ideally speaking, the more spiritually mature you are, it doesn't mean you're fearless, but the fear of death isn't a controlling factor in your life.
Nathan (22:17)
Well,
okay, let's throw another wrinkle into this. I would say that in my travels and in my own life, some of the most profound spiritual experiences that people have had that I've talked to, or even for myself, have been watching people die in pain with great peace. If you ever have the opportunity to watch a mature Christian die, that is a wild experience. ⁓ Even people praying things like
God, thank you for the I watched a man one time his as his wife was dying and they were praying together and both of them tell me After like five years of cancer that if this is what it took for God to bring them to that point spiritually It was worth it And then she died
Cameron (23:02)
Hmm.
Nathan (23:05)
You know, right? And so I'm sitting like, and I'm thinking very pragmatically at this point of saying, no, we must minimize the suffering at all costs because not suffering is the, is the greatest good. And they were living in this category of, but there's a spiritual piece that transcends understanding that is available to the human that oftentimes isn't manifest without this as we come to the end of life. So
Cameron (23:05)
Astonishing.
course.
Nathan (23:33)
Maybe that's the way forward is casting a vision for the possibility of telling the story of the moreness of what a human is. That we're not just talking about the cessation of ⁓ organ function, the environment. The outward we're wasting away inward we're being renewed. To think what does that mean non-metaphorically, but as an actual vision that we can live and grow into as Christians in this time.
Cameron (23:44)
Mmm.
It's very eye-opening to think about how you would defend the intrinsic worth of human life in cultural terms. Because very quickly you you reach that, I think you come up against those walls, you see those limits.
And then you recognize, you talk about something like you just did, Nathan, it's impossible to see something like that and really be there, really witness it and come out of that experience unchanged. And I think the challenge for us is really to think and to live Christianly in a culture that will continue to, and I don't want to paint this in the sort of, you know, the
us and them language. mean, we hear a case a lot like this being enacted and on a personal level, find it profoundly distressing, disturbing, very sad. And I think it's bad. And I think it's bad for our society. I think it's harmful. But to see it with compassion and to think, know, Father God, how can we live out the Christian vision of life?
human life and happiness and how can we do it in a way that invites others in and is compelling and that will help to change people's minds and hearts.
Nathan (25:36)
Probably the takeaway is is we're not doing enough time is spending enough time visiting nursing homes Is it do we have a broader culture of? ⁓ sitting with the elderly and the and the dying is our ⁓ Yeah, I so I think this is a category that's certainly lacking in my own life that I could do better at and that we collectively could ⁓ of Even just going and sitting
Cameron (25:53)
and the infirm, yeah.
Same. Same.
Nathan (26:06)
with people would be a phenomenal ministry to them, but also a reminder to ourselves that these moments are sacred. It's almost as if we treat dying as a... You know how we talk about airports not being a place? It's just a transition point. There's no home there or a hotel. We almost treat the dying years as if your life is done.
Cameron (26:14)
Yes.
Yeah, sure.
Nathan (26:36)
and you're just waiting for this thing and let's just speed it up and get it over with. Rather than seeing it as a, this is a, my dad was with a family once as one of the parents was dying. And he came back and he said, you know, for the Christian, ⁓ death is just such a neat time of life. And that's a weird, but to think of it as ⁓ God has something for us in this
Cameron (26:37)
Yep.
Hmm. What a paradoxical phrase. Yeah.
Nathan (27:05)
timeframe and wants to work and continue to speak and still loves and and minister to us is a is a different thing than seeing it as like man this is just like Who wouldn't want to not have to wait in this airport terminal for you know? Three more months, but to say no there actually is something really available in the spiritual and human experience left in these So if you said the last six months and then I mean
Cameron (27:26)
Spiritual nourishment will happen. Yeah, can happen during this time.
Nathan (27:33)
If you thought we were being pessimistic earlier, you start looking at the percentages of like healthcare cost in the last six months of life and all of that and national debts and recalculations of budgets and stuff. And you can very easily see why it would be in the hospital's best interest or the insurance company's best interest to say green light that that'll save us 2 million bucks onward we go. So probably will require some institutional creativity. I think for Christians going forward, it
⁓ Reconviction to me to say even though I theologically align myself in these categories Am I practically manifesting these things in in the sub components of what those trickle-down effects mean and then I think continuing to have Find find your people that you can discuss and think through because the rate of change and what's possible will be happening fast enough that I know for sure I won't be able to make the bioethical decisions individually with enough information quickly, so we're gonna
Cameron (28:11)
Hmm.
Nathan (28:32)
Continue to need lots of Christians working in healthcare and ethics and technology who can give us some real handles on how to think through and conceptualize this. And then we'll just need, obviously, the Holy Spirit guiding us in the midst of it all as we think through how to make decisions. Because it's just going to get wilder as we go here.
Cameron (28:54)
heavy, important matters for reflection. And for those of us who follow Christ, I think one of the productive challenges of our day is to consider how can we think faithfully about these matters. In this case, the value of human life. How can we think faithfully about
the place of death and maybe consider what a good death looks like. And remember, of course, that death is not the end. We need to repeat that often within the church because it truly isn't. For many, they see this as the end. But we know as Christians, we know better. Death is not the end. so,
Nathan (29:42)
Mm-hmm.
The last six months of your life
are not the last six months of your existence.
Cameron (29:50)
precisely and that to say that and to confess that as an article of faith is to also take an eternal perspective on these matters. But again, we are creatures and we struggle with our creatureliness as modern people. We want to think of ourselves as in control and we like to think that we call the shots. Death is one of the few remaining items that those few remaining rude reminders that we are absolutely not in control.
and what we truly are dependent and we are creatures in the full sense. You couldn't really hide from that fact too well in the middle ages, but today it's possible to kind of distract yourself away from it for quite a while. So it's worth thinking through. Let's not do that. You've been listening to Thinking Out Loud, a podcast where we think out loud about current events and Christian hope.