Is Orthodoxy the New Masculine Movement? The Truth Behind the ‘Ortho Bro’ Surge
Cameron (00:00)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co-host, Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:04)
And I'm your cohost, Nathan Rittenhouse. In this episode, Cameron and I do a mini review of an article in the New York Times that talks about the rise of the ortho bros. For those of you who have interacted with anybody who's part of the Orthodox Church, but particularly its political manifestation through a new interest in young men in the Orthodox Church, you'll find this to be helpful. If you like the work that we do and appreciate that, remember you can share it, you can like it, you can subscribe. And if you want to support the work that we do, you can do so by visiting www.toltogether.com and clicking on the donate tab.
Cameron (00:07)
I have a new term for you. is ortho bro. And no, this doesn't have to do, yeah, nothing to do with dental, dental hygiene or orthodontist or anything like that. Bad joke. Sorry. And so, but no, I suppose so.
Nathan (00:11)
Bro, I already know.
Yeah.
No, actually it does.
Let's go there. So ortho, orthodoxy, we're talking about ortho bros. So if you think about ⁓ like the doxological, the Greek word glory, so proper glory, ortho glory, orthodontist, somebody who straightens, has properly aligned teeth, orthopedics, you see all these orthoptera, straight wings, ⁓ yeah, linear.
Ortho, so an ortho bro is somebody who's just properly aligned in life, Cameron. Didn't you know?
Cameron (00:53)
What have I done? Anyway,
yes. Thank you for that, Nathan. But also may put you in mind of another neologism from a few years ago, Theo Bro. And that was connected with what Colin Hansen termed, he was the one who coined the phrase young, restless, and reformed. And if you can cast your mind back, I think that was about 20 years ago.
If you can, or maybe more like 10 years ago, something like that. It wasn't that long ago. There was this brief period of time where it was cool, sort of cool to be a Calvinist. And it had a lot of head.
Nathan (01:36)
yeah.
There's some second, there's some second wave
of this going on, I think, but the predominant, yeah, your macarthers and pipers and Chandlers and Driskals and that whole crowd was definitely, ⁓ making waves.
Cameron (01:52)
Something similar is happening today, contends journalist Ruth Graham in a New York Times opinion piece with the Eastern Orthodox Church. And this is a piece that is worth reading if you can get past the paywall or if you can have a friend who's a New York Times subscriber gift you the article perhaps so you can read it. Ruth Graham is the religion reporter there, does a lot of thoughtful work.
But she profiles a church, I believe the church she's looking at is in North Carolina. And so we're talking about the South here. But the Eastern Orthodox Church in general, there has been an influx of people to the Eastern Orthodox Church. And this is remarkable because in the past 50 years, past longer, the Orthodox Church has not been growing. And suddenly there's this spike.
So she's trying to figure out, or she's wrestling a little bit with what's happening. I take exception to some of what the article seems to be doing, but it's written carefully to where she doesn't try to draw your conclusions for you, but she certainly supplies a lot of information that would lead you toward a certain conclusion. The predominant people converting, the predominant group is males, so lots of men. And the takeaway that you're gonna ...
that you're going to have from the article. I want to kick this over to Nathan and see what his response was to this. The takeaway from the article, she doesn't state it outright, is that a lot of men are gravitating toward orthodoxy because it's a more masculine, robust expression of Christianity. You have big beards and you have some of the influencer type orthodox presences who are
very loud online and who have made a big splash and have made some fairly controversial statements. And so those are drawing people in, but she seems to be indicating in the article that this is a rather male-centric hyper-masculine kind of phenomenon that we're dealing with. I'm curious about what you think of some of this, Nathan, or some responses to that.
Nathan (04:12)
Yeah, well, mean the beard, the beard
thing, eh, you know, not that impressed. But the, so the, so actually what's interesting to me, Cameron, is like, there are moments in my life where I feel like I told you so is the appropriate response. And this is one of them. Um, so back up with me to like 2013, 2014 in New England. So I was, uh, working up there at the time. And at that point, if somebody who was coming from no Christian background,
became a Christian, there was good chance that they would become Catholic or Orthodox. And people were like, why would somebody go from? And think of New England maybe in that more ⁓ Ivy League intellectualized sphere that was truly focusing in a more postmodern or ⁓ true liberal order. And you have somebody who has grown up thinking, hey, I'll do everything my way. History doesn't matter. Nobody tells me what to do.
There's no real authority. And then you, there's no real structure to my life. And then you become a Christian. The thing that you think you're being saved from, when it's partly true, is disorder. And so the opposite of that is total order. So if you're coming from a, what feels like a very swirling and confusing culture of self-choice and, you know, self-identity, the opposite of that would be churches that have history, stability, authority, identity, clarity, strong doctrine.
⁓ physical manifestations of your faith, things that you actually do. And so, to me, it was clear that in a New England context, in which the culture was far more ⁓ fluid and flippant about everything, that the opposite of that would be churches who could clearly articulate who they were, where they were from, what they were doing, what the expectations were. And so, I could see the draw and the appeal there. I think a lot of that is still at play.
Cameron (05:43)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Nathan (06:09)
but just in broader swaths of our country right now. Where people now, what would have been the unsettled and unrooted feeling of New England 10 years ago, is now much more mainstream across the country. So there is a legitimate desire and craving, I think, that comes out of a spiritual sense of restlessness that seeks some of these more defined and historically ⁓ rigid. Now, the thing of it is, is this is not exclusively true for Catholic and Orthodox churches.
any church that says, here's our history, here's where we're from, here's what we believe about the Scriptures, here's what we preach, we don't need you. You know, like, we're not changing who we are for your preferences, ⁓ join us if you want, it's no, like, we're not clinging or needy, ⁓ and we have a clearly outlined and defined sense of who we are what we're doing. All of those churches are fine and are growing. So, underneath all of this, I just want to point to, I think there is a
Cameron (07:00)
Yeah.
Nathan (07:08)
Okay, first of all, you could have God working in people's lives. But then second of all, that there is a ⁓ deeper sense of unrest that pushes people in this direction. And then if you look at a culture in which you look at the massive political and social changes in the lives of young men in particular, as a manifestation of a response to what seems to be a totally chaotic culture, it shouldn't surprise us then that young men in particular, as they trend and swing right
politically and are looking for more traditional sources of ⁓ concepts of family and stability and community and theology are going to be so there's a sense in which in this case I think the young men are a bit of a canary in the coal mine for a broader cultural change in relation to the way in which we think about our spiritual life in church in general
Cameron (07:39)
Mm-hmm.
That's some sound analysis. like the canary in the coal mine picture because if we focus too heavily, I think on men gravitating toward hyper masculine expressions of the faith, I think we're running into some reductive thinking. Certainly that might be a factor, but it's clearly not the whole picture. think one really interesting parallel Nathan for us these days is with, I find myself right now,
gravitating toward a lot of thinkers who are writing in the wake of the Second World War. And I don't think that's because I'm unique at all. I think that because there, I think there's something in the air. Are we, but I'm saying there's nothing special about that. A lot of us are doing that now. Why, why, so why am I suddenly, why does Karl Barth suddenly, you know, sound very, very relevant all of a sudden or Paul Tillich or some of these guys who are right or, or Auden or TS Eliot.
Nathan (08:43)
I think you're pretty unique, but just to point that out as a go back.
Cameron (09:01)
Part of it we could say, well, these were all very interesting and very refined thinkers. True. But they were also writing in a civilizational moment. Now we're not facing
Nathan (09:10)
They were writing
trying to figure out how do you put the world back together.
Cameron (09:14)
They were writing, do you try to put the world back together? Well said. In a civilizational moment, there are many different ways you could define that. And I'm sure there are people who would come up with much more serviceable definitions than I would. for our purposes here, we could just say a civilizational moment is a moment where everything feels like it is up in the air. It's not very elegantly phrased, but it feels, for lack of a better word, chaotic, or it's a time of great upheaval. Everything is changing, or it's a period of massive transition.
There are various thinkers who are weighing in on this. have Paul Kings North basically saying, hey, we can't save the West. The West is already a big, vast heap of smoldering ashes and we're making our way through the wreckage.
Nathan (10:01)
And there might be a generational
distinction to make here, Cameron. mean, play this out because I think you'd have a certain degree of Americans who say, look, ⁓ we bought our house. have our pension and retirement. had, you know, got married, had kids. ⁓ the economy is serving us well. And then there would be a whole other, maybe part of the country would be like, Nope, all of, yeah, all of those things are gone.
Cameron (10:22)
Very different experience. Yes.
So there's that wide disparity as well. And it's more than just economic and sociological. This can, this turns spiritual as well. But that's the moment in which we find ourselves. So all that to come back full circle, I think you're right to say that the deeper impulse driving people toward ancient churches is a desire for rootedness and a desire for order and
structure and you come to some of these churches and that is clearly that ancient embodied form of worship is immensely powerful and it's immensely appealing at a time like this.
Nathan (11:07)
Okay, I have two things. ⁓ One is, we want to distinguish between, in this case, the actual Orthodox Church and an ortho-bro. Can we pause here? Because an ortho-bro, ⁓ the Orthodox Church does have some pretty heavy-hitting social media influencers that are anywhere from your Jonathan Pagio, which I think is a more ⁓ artistic, intellectual version of this, to your Andrew Willsons, who are basically ⁓
cage fighters for social change or something like that. Well, a lot of them are very much present themselves as a hard edge. We crushed feminism. We crushed liberalism. Atheism is stupid. It's actually taking the flamboyancy of the new atheism and then using the same tone and rhetoric back against atheism. And so there was a sense in which it was felt like Christians pulled their punches because we're going to give a reason for our hope with gentleness and respect.
Cameron (11:41)
I was gonna say, how do you describe Andrew Wilson in diplomatic terms? Yeah.
Nathan (12:08)
And the new online ortho bros are like, forget that you're all are idiots and you can't even justify your own existence. How dare you lecture us morally on what does or doesn't make sense. And it has this for the young man, like you want a boxer in your corner to just go out there and punch your enemies in the face and own them. So to speak at the same time that I don't think is driven directly out of the core theology of the Orthodox church case in point, the article that you're referencing, the, the leader of that church said to a lot of new.
converts don't become an ortho bro. ⁓ And so we want to be make sure that we're recognizing where this is coming from. It's not directly out of the theology of either the Catholic or the Orthodox church that some of this more pugilistic ⁓ language is coming.
Cameron (12:41)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan.
Nathan, you're familiar, I take it, with the phrase cage stage Calvinist, right?
Nathan (13:02)
Okay, this is where I was going, so develop this for me. Bring everybody along.
Cameron (13:07)
Well, I'm not sure I'll develop
at that. I want to say that Calvinists don't have a corner on this particular market, but Cage stage Calvinists would describe somebody who becomes an irritating lout after they've become infatuated with reform doctrine and they start just basically lecturing everybody all the time and they're obnoxious about it. But this isn't restricted to somebody who is reformed. mean, this is
This is a very real social phenomenon. I've known people who are cage stage Anglicans. I've known people who are cage stage Orthodox. Basically, it's part, I wonder if it's almost a necessary rite of passage where you make a radical turn in your religious thinking and then you become very, for a brief period of time, a real enthusiastic champion for your particular tradition to the point of obnoxiousness.
And you see some of that now. Let's so work with that a little bit, Nathan and bring ortho bro into that discussion because there's, may be a little bit of a necessary rite of passage in some of this.
Nathan (14:18)
Okay. So this is, let's, let's work through this because here's the question that I was going to ask you to go to figure this out. What happened to the Young Restless and Reform Movement?
Now, certainly you can still find John Piper and Paul Washer sermons on YouTube. ⁓ It's still there, but it is not the tidal wave of American religious conversation that it used to be. here's, so here's like, we sound like we're flipping it out. Here's the sad part is that a lot of those dudes burned out and actually deconstructed and aren't even part of the church anymore.
Cameron (14:28)
Fizzled out.
Nathan (14:54)
So you go back and look at your attrition rate from the young restless and reform thing was is significant. Why is that? It's because I mean, remember back in the time when like the Babylon B would run articles about, you know, cage stage Calvinist latching biting people in the arm and like, mean, the it was hilarious, but there's a, there's an intensity of an energy where if you're coming out of a vacuum of there is chaos in my life, I'm
latching onto this thing that promises stability and clarity and let's be clear reform theology does that it stacks all of your pieces of doctrine into wonderfully ⁓ Right angled Tetris pieces that can be stacked together very quickly ⁓ Engineers like I was telling somebody recently if you're an engineer like you're prone to this and a couple other personality types But the you're laughing because you know, it's true Cameron ⁓ But the other thing is is that what happens when you have clamped down so so
when you clamp down so tightly on the antidote to chaos and then find out that there's differentiation and a little bit of disorder within the thing, within the boat that you've jumped into. So, there are not that many, even as the Young Restless and Reformed movement was going, there are not that many total Calvinists. There's all sorts of modified ideas within Reformed theology. Catholicism and orthodoxy
Cameron (16:02)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nathan (16:20)
are also not that airtight as a sense of long-term historical traditional unchanging stability. Just ask the Ukrainian and Russian Orthodox how they're getting along right now. ⁓ And then obviously without like kicking on Catholicism, there's a sorted past there and a whole number of fascinating wrinkles and interesting things in history. so the, again, not to say that any group is perfect,
It's just that when you latch on to a manifestation of the church in order for it to be the antidote to chaos, and then you find that there has been, there still is a little bit of chaos within it, it's a very disillusioning thing. So I'm not out there saying that there's any perfect church that has its act all together. And the purpose of the church isn't that. It's like, do you know how to fix the mistakes within the relationships that you have as a community is an important thing. But if you're joining a church thinking that it saves you,
Cameron (17:01)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (17:17)
from having to do any discernment or from any type of disagreement or as a resting place of like, you know what, actually ⁓ apostolic succession is the thing that's going to stabilize my concept of church. ⁓ Sorry, that's probably not going to happen. And so that I think is where the despair cycle comes into this is when you've expected too much from the rigidity of the way in which a theological system has presented it.
Cameron (17:39)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (17:47)
to yourself, to you as ⁓ the opposite of the chaos socially that you feel in your
Cameron (17:54)
One of the enemies of faith that gets less discussion is idealism. And that's a big factor here. From the outside, some of these more ancient traditions do appear to have a level of order and stability that they actually don't have when you enter into their sanctuaries. Now, do I think that that is a mark against their credibility? No, actually, I don't because I think that is true.
Nathan (18:21)
And it probably is more
stability than your average non-denominational independent church.
Cameron (18:27)
absolutely. Absolutely it is. But I think that that's a basic feature of any human institution you walk into. And yes, any church. This is a conversation I've been having a lot, Nathan, and I suspect you have as well, especially in your pastoral capacity, because you came up with a phrase that I thought was really helpful. talked about how you speak with many people who are angry with God for not keeping promises he never made.
or something to that effect. And we have to be carefully on our guard to recognize human nature for what it is. I'm not recommending that we walk around with a thorough going pessimism, animating all of our steps. I've said this many times before, stoical resignation,
Nathan (18:57)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (19:24)
is not a Christian virtue and the Christian view of reality is not a tragic one. It is a comedy. It is in the end, redemptive, but we have to remember that the one perfect human being is our Lord Jesus Christ and the rest of us are fallen human beings. Is that an excuse for everything that goes on or that's done in the name of God? Absolutely, by no means, but it's an absolutely necessary piece of perspective.
If we don't want to have our hopes crushed and if we don't want to see idealism really is the road to despair. If you're not careful, because if you're too much of an idealist, your standards are too high in the wrong places, you are setting yourself up to have your soul crushed and you're setting yourself up. If you're not careful to walk away from the faith and disgust, and you'll have a lot of reasons to do so. You have to have the proper perspective. You've got to see.
Nathan (20:18)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (20:24)
Christ on his throne, and then you have to see God's people here on earth who are flawed and fallen, made in the image of God, but who make terrible mistakes. This is why I always find it so encouraging, Nathan, when we turn to scripture, that we do not find an idealized depiction of any of the characters in scripture, any of the heroes, heroes in quotes, right?
Nathan (20:44)
Well, but
even think what the one who is ideal, what did Jesus say? I mean, talk about a non-polished, in this world you will have trouble. They hated me, they'll hate you too. Pick up your cross and follow me. Whoever wants to find his life will lose it. I mean, that is one of the beautiful things about the gospel, is it does not paint an overly rosy picture of human community this side of eternity.
If, but, but, or life in the church, I love the Oz Guinness. Yeah. I always get a chuckle out of, think it was Oz Guinness who said everybody loves the idea of community until they find out there are other people in it. Um, you know, and it's always just a brutal way, but the, to, loop back around and like, I don't want to quick too quickly. There is a side of all of this that I can mock easily, but on the other hand.
Cameron (21:14)
Yeah. Or life in the church following Jesus. The son of man has nowhere to rest to lay his head. Yeah. Yes.
Nathan (21:42)
I think we are living in a moment in which you do have a desire for some sort of ⁓ political or social grounding that a lot of young people intuitively and rationally see can't be justified from our political system. I mean, even the U.S. Constitution itself cannot morally rationalize its own existence. There is a
Declaration of Independence kind of idea that we hold these truths to be self-evident that all people are created equal as an ideal but it is an appeal to heaven in order to justify a lot of what it is that has made our country what it is and so I do see that there whether it's strategic or felt a Recognition that in order for us to form a broader sense of community than just our legal system. We do have to re-embrace collectively Transcendent ideas in order for there be a common moral reference for us to figure out
to live together. that, think, is all true. And so, there's an element here where I think we do want to be thinking of ⁓ the problems of our world in spiritual terms. But what that doesn't mean is that Nick Fuentes becomes the spokesperson for the Catholic Church. I'm pretty sure they don't want him as the spokesperson for the Catholic Church to young men, but that's what they've got. ⁓ Or that Andrew Wilson's an Orthodox and that whole kind of thing. ⁓
To me, I can see the impulse, I can see the desire, and to some degree, I can justify the motivation for desiring for that thing to be true. It's just a question of, the ⁓ construction of the institution really the thing that provides the spiritual stability that you're seeking in your life? And even for people who historically have been in those institutions would say no.
Cameron (23:32)
Well one noble said-
One noble side to this desire, I think, Nathan, is I think people on an instinctive, on an intuitive, and sometimes on a more recognized level, people are tired of churches that are just pining to fit in with the culture, that want to be relevant. And there's something unbelievably refreshing about discovering a tradition that just doesn't care. I remember, I mean, a couple of different accounts recently,
Nathan (23:53)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (24:05)
give vivid expression to this. One is Paul Kings North. So he's been on an interesting spiritual journey all the way from environmental activism, which then in turn led to pagan interests, which culminated in Wicca. And then eventually he found himself at the Orthodox Church. But he said one of the sort of marks of credibility for him was when he was talking to the priest. And it was very clear this priest didn't really want to talk to him and had, was pretty indifferent as to whether
he, Paul, converted or not. This guy didn't care. And he found something persuasive about that. And that makes sense to me, Nathan, because we're coming on, you know, 50 years of the church, especially evangelical churches, in earnest, really trying to gain more more sway with popular culture, latching onto form, popular culture forms, whether it's from movies or having that reflected in their worship music. This is still the case today.
And we're at a point now where people earnestly desire something that looks different, that really is an alternative to the cultural landscape. And so it's a day where if your church looks like a strip mall, it's a mark against its credibility. Whereas if your church reflects a more ancient way, it's going to be a mark in its favor. But I think there's a real desire there for people to just, hey,
We want to get away from this constant need to fit in and to say, hey, we're cool. We're just like you. Whereas if you go into these churches, like the Orthodox church, mean, the Orthodox church, if you've grown up outside the church or if you've grown up in evangelical settings, it's alien in the full sense of that word, the way the worship is conducted, all of it. And there's something appealing about that. It's okay to be different. It's okay to be, to stand out. mean, we said,
I think years ago, Nathan, on this podcast, I think we had one called Get Ready to Be Weird, meaning as Christians, we need to make our peace, although, been a Christian for a long time, I this is just welcome to the club. Christians, we aren't called resident aliens for nothing, but we need to be more at peace with standing out and being seen as strange. And this is one area where the Catholics
Nathan (26:19)
you
Cameron (26:31)
and the Orthodox do have a leg up. They have stood out for longer, especially if they're in America. So I think that's a factor here.
Nathan (26:40)
Well, okay, actually.
There are two sides of what you just said about, especially if they're in America, are true. One is that it does seem different. But also, take almost any rigid institutional concept of anything and put it in America and it'll get toned down. Or, will capitulate to certain elements of what it means to be American. So, your American Catholicism, American ⁓ Islam, for sure is a different creature.
Cameron (27:11)
Yeah, that's
fair. Yep.
Nathan (27:12)
American orthodoxy,
American Calvin, like all of these.
are not quite fully. So I'll give you an example. wonderful friend of mine grew up Romanian Orthodox. She's a mentor to my daughter and has some crazy stories about what it meant to be Eastern Orthodox in an actually Eastern country like that about like the services where they would dig up dead people. And then you would go forward and kiss the bodies that were unearthed that hadn't decayed.
Cameron (27:18)
Mm-hmm.
Now that's metal, just kidding.
Nathan (27:44)
I
know, right? So, but there's stuff like that. like, I don't think they're doing that in North Carolina. You know what saying? So it's, ⁓ I'll just say like there are, there are elements in which even the things are like, well, the traditional way to venerate the holy ones is to dig them up and kiss them. ⁓ yeah. And I'm just using that as a bit of a flamboyant example, but you get what I'm saying is that there is a way in which all of these traditions have,
Cameron (27:52)
Not legally.
Yeah. ⁓
I got, sure. Yep.
Nathan (28:13)
I don't think it's strategically there's anything malevolent about it. Have reconstituted themselves in a way that is a bit more palpable to American concepts of freedom. mean, how many, how many Catholic priests are actually telling members of their church to sell everything that they have and give it to the church and go like live in this monastery? Like you don't have a whole lot of that happening anymore. or that's not a, but you can.
Same thing is true for the... Hutterites. I don't know. Pick something clear on the other end of the spectrum. I'm just saying sometimes the American version of the thing still allows for a bit of a more flexible interpretation of what this historically has looked like around the world.
Cameron (29:01)
I that's true. Making our way through one of the most, arguably one of the most seductive cultures in the history of the world, I don't think that's an overstatement, is a major challenge.
Nathan (29:16)
But,
but I think the traditional churches are going to be better at that comparatively. So I'm speaking out of two sides of my mouth here, because on one I'm saying, hey, they're changing too. On the other hand, they're not changing as much as. Yeah.
Cameron (29:24)
Yes, I do. Yep.
But less, yeah, less, Yeah,
they're changing, but not nearly as much as, it's so easy to pick on these. Yeah, your non-denominational church down the street that's in a warehouse, okay? So we can be equal opportunity offenders here. So in the end though, part of what we're saying is it's a helpful article and it's worth reading, but don't get drawn into reductive lines of thinking.
Nathan (29:39)
Yeah. ⁓
Yeah. Yeah.
Cameron (29:57)
where you just think, this is all just pure sociology. know, men want more hyper masculine expressions of, you know, their masculinity so that, you they like the bigger beards and they like the pageantry and all of that. Those might be factors and elements, but something deeper is going on and it is a draw for two roots. It's a draw to structure. And yes, something that's ancient and not, that doesn't look like the world around us and is, doesn't want to
fit in, doesn't feel beholden to the surrounding culture. I think there's immense appeal now for people who are kind of glorious outsiders to all of that. And so there's a word of opportunity and a word of challenge to us as Christians. Are we willing to embrace the prophetic side of our faith that does make us stand out in a way that compels people, sometimes repels them too, but compels them to say, what is the way that you follow?
Nathan (30:30)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (30:56)
Essentially, maybe not in those words. It might be more along the lines of, who do you think you are?
Nathan (30:57)
Mm-hmm. And there's a relief to
not thinking that you have to be the one who decides it. Let's be honest about that, too. Also, these are churches that present themselves in the apologetic space with extreme certainty. So there isn't a, let's talk about this. It's like, hey, sit down and listen. Here's what's And if you listen to the, and both churches will tell you that.
Cameron (31:06)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep.
Yes.
This is the one through church, yeah.
Nathan (31:26)
But if you listen to the, ⁓ so, mean, not to be flippant, but there are things like that of like, you are saying some things with extreme certainty that I am very confident are not certain. However, but you and I, Cameron are an older generation now that questions and pushes back and second guesses everything. You're like, yeah, but there's an alternative side to that. And that is by and large, not what we're seeing among a younger generation who is willing to just go with whatever is presented to them with the most clarity at the moment.
Cameron (31:27)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
No, that's very appealing. That's very appealing, yes.
Nathan (31:57)
So this, we are academically and intellectually setting ourselves up more. I mean, this is how a lot of Islam works too, is it just has a totalizing certainty. And if you disagree with us, there's something fundamentally wrong with you. So get with the program or else. ⁓ That is the...
Cameron (32:06)
Yes.
Here's how you
wash your ears for goodness sakes. And there's tremendous appeal for that in a time of great uncertainty and a great time of cultural upheaval. I'm not saying that flippantly. I mean that. That's true. There is real appeal there. But I suppose part of what, if you're a thinking person, and we're all thinking persons to a degree, but if you're a restless intellectual type, part of your God-given burden to bear and responsibility is to
try to walk forward living by faith not by sight responsibly and not give in.
to false consolations.
Nathan (32:56)
And let's add another one in here while you're wrapping this up. Yeah, easier said than done. But also, historically, Reformed theology, Catholicism, which many people would say Reformed theology wasn't trying to redo, you know, Augustine, Aquinas, and so on. Yeah. So, that vision and Orthodoxy all do have deep political visions baked into them of the structuring of society and reality. And so, I can also see why
Cameron (32:58)
And that's easier said than done. Yeah.
No, reform the church Catholic, small C. Yep.
Nathan (33:26)
There is a tension there for those ⁓ churches, even the Anglican Church. Read the 39 articles. There's some big stuff about allegiance to sovereigns and that kind of thing. It is defining a political theory baked into a theology that I think in a time in which people are trying to find a spot to kind of fit in in the current political systems aren't working for them. There's an appeal there.
Cameron (33:36)
What would you-
Wow.
And while we're meddling, Nathan, mean, both you and I in our distinctive ways have felt these very tensions in our own churches and traditions. You have been through the absolute wringer yourself with your congregation and also all of the denominational upheavals. And I feel those tensions very much in my Presbyterian circles and they are very real. So part of that is just the
Nathan (34:04)
Yeah.
Cameron (34:20)
It's the basic texture of life for human beings under the sun and Christians under the sun. We will do the best to honor our Lord, but we have to make our way through different times and traditions. And sometimes the territory can be trying and ambiguous and highly tense. And we want to follow our Lord and
live a life of prayer and worship, but it isn't easy. And we want to avoid those false consolations. And I'm not, I hope when I say false consolation, I'm not saying that Catholicism is a false consolation. I'm, what I mean to indicate is we try to find an intellectual shortcut to epistemic rest. If I could say that less clearly, but you know what I mean. We're trying to find a way to, hey,
Nathan (34:54)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Cameron (35:17)
Here's a little rule book that'll just settle everything for me, do all my thinking for me. Okay, regardless of what tradition you fall into, that's a line of thinking that's not healthy. It's one thing to think, hey, I've done my due diligence. I believe I have responsibly ended up at the threshold of this tradition, this church. And it's another thing to say, I want to outsource all my thinking to this tradition because they seem like they've got it all together. I would caution against that second strategy. It's the best I can do.
Nathan (35:39)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Well, there you go. I'm sure that we'll have a whole lot more to say on this as time rolls on and you know in ten years who knows what the next ⁓ version of this will be. What the next bro will be. Yeah, so ⁓
Cameron (35:56)
Bro will be.
Nathan (36:03)
We'll sit and watch and comment as it goes, but at the end of day, what Cameron and I are really saying beneath all of this is that Christ calls us to recognize who He is and respond accordingly. And you cannot outsource that to another institution. You can develop and grow. Who do you say that I am? And you can grow within institutions and churches and traditions. That's a beautiful place to grow, but it is not a good source for the foundation of your hope.
Cameron (36:20)
Who do you say I am? ⁓
Nathan (36:32)
And I think as we confuse those things or even we mix some other motivations in there, that's where the confusion comes from. And so this is just a clarity, a call to clarity for all of us, for myself, for Cameron, for those of you listening to think about what a healthy relationship is with the traditions and the institutions and the churches around you. And then at the other hand, there might be some reflection that you want to do in thinking about what is God actually calling our church to do and how should we really be ministering in this time?
And we can't sort that out for you, but we can sure enjoy thinking about it. So you've been listening to thinking out loud, a podcast where we think out loud about current events and Christian hope.