Are We Drowning in Cheap Stuff? Consumerism, Relationships, and Holidays
Nathan (00:01)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your cohost, Nathan Rittenhouse.
Cameron (00:05)
and I'm your co-host Cameron McAllister. In this episode, we talk about stuff and how there's just too much of it and how we might be getting a little bit tired of accumulating all of this stuff. Stick around. This will be helpful to you as you think about the rampant commercialism that drives our culture, especially as we enter into the Christmas season. As always, like, share, and subscribe. And if you'd like to support the work that we do and get behind us financially, you can do that by going to www.toltogether.com.
Nathan (00:07)
I need a little help discerning whether or not I'm just getting older or I haven't experienced that's like a sign of the times. But in order jump into this, I can ask it to you this way. Do you have a Christmas list? Like a wish list? You know, what do want for Christmas? You have a...
Cameron (00:11)
yes you do.
Sure. Yeah.
Nathan (00:25)
You want a pair skates,
bouncy ball, you know. You know, so I, yeah, I know you so well. ⁓ here's where, here's where I'm going with this. ⁓ in the last year or two, I've, I've said out loud to my wife, like, I haven't seen an advertisement for something that appeals to me. I feel like I'm being like something with the algorithm is not right. Like, it's not showing me things that I actually want. There's that then.
Cameron (00:29)
How'd you know? Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (00:54)
Uh, so my wife was shopping with her sister-in-law's the other day. were doing some holiday stuff and it wasn't black Friday is well before that. And I talked, I called her at some point during the day. It's like, Hey, are you get this? And this, I was like, are you finding a lot of stuff? She's like, no, there's just nothing out here that I want. Um, and so kind of running into this is a little bit of like, the world is full of junk. I mean, so you can look at this from one side of like, you know, for the average American.
Cameron (01:08)
Mm-mm.
Mm.
Nathan (01:24)
They estimate that when you die, you know, there's the size of your grave and then there would be 1100 other graves for you to bury all of your stuff that you've consumed. ⁓ so there's, there's, there's that side of it and that's a little bit of it, but then there's a, another element. Yeah. I think it's just the, the junkification of things that, and we were, we were talking about it and, she was saying, well, it seems like there isn't anything new. It's just like a seasonal variation on the same stuff. And so.
Do I need a different decoration for my table for every single holiday? do I need a... And you can quickly go down the... Look at the majority of things that are sold in stores. And obviously, you're going to need a new spatula every once in a while. But by and large, that isn't what our economy is based on. And at some point in life, you probably just feel like, you know, I don't need another... ⁓ So, is it me just... I'm an oddly content person.
Cameron (02:11)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (02:25)
that I have a good handle on what the concept of enough is, or is there a broader cultural sense in which she's just kind of like, yeah, I'm tired of stuff.
Cameron (02:37)
I hate to burst your bubble. I don't think you're that special here, Nathan. Just kidding. But what you get, I know that's what you're hinting at. I think you have, we live in an era where so much of what we, a person could want is now available very quickly. so when it comes to entertainment and all of that, most of it's just, it's all digital. So there is that.
Nathan (03:01)
So it's digital, there isn't a physical thing
you get, yeah.
Cameron (03:05)
Right. And now there are people who are collectors of physical media, but that's, that's kind of a hobby. It's not most, many people actually would rather just have less clutter in their homes. And it's, it's all, you don't even have to go to a movie theater to see a movie you want. can, mean you it's all available instantly and it's non-tangible in the sense that it's not an artifact that you're going to get. It's just some, you're going to, you're going to watch it on a screen or something like that. That eliminates a whole bunch of stuff. Also, again, people don't.
I think a huge part of this, Nathan, is we just don't go places that much anymore. So there are plenty of...
Nathan (03:40)
You're
not just a trolling around hot topic anymore Cameron. Is that what you're saying?
Cameron (03:43)
Right. mean, how dare you assume that I trolled around Hot Topic? That's absolutely accurate, but how dare you? No, but also you have throughout the year two, people tend to order what they want. I mean, think so one of the categories that will get you where you still will shop a lot are probably sports or hobbies like that. So if you're into fishing, if you're into cycling, things like that, there are, there, there is equipment that you're going to want and new stuff, but generally
Nathan (03:45)
Yeah.
Cameron (04:12)
Again, you don't have to, do some people go to a shop or drive to Bass Pro Shop or something? Sure. I mean, most people, again, the temptation is just to have it sent to your door and then it's just sort of arriving. So you're not going anywhere to get this stuff anymore. ⁓
Nathan (04:30)
Yeah.
Well, so availability, cheap energy, also the development of plastic as a cheap. There was a, there was a bush that I was talking to my grandpa. was like, Hey, what's this bush? And he's like, he told me, he's like the seed pods of that bush. said, when I was a kid, we would take those seed pods and that's what we would use to be our, our toy cows on our imaginary farms. When we were little kids, we'd take these seed pods. you know, right now, if I went into my kid's room, I bet there are 42 plastic cows kicked under beds and like,
Cameron (04:35)
Yeah.
Nathan (05:01)
it's a different and those cows will be with us forever. The seed pods probably germinated or deteriorated. So the physical stuff of what things are made out of makes a difference in this too.
Cameron (05:09)
But I also had that feeling.
Yes, it does. I had that feeling though too Nathan when I was walking through a clothes, know I went to go get clothes for the first time and you know, I update my wardrobe maybe once every 10 years and so I was doing that but I was amazed as I walked through this store just the sheer amount of junk everywhere Candles odd little trinkets bizarre pictures and knickknacks and all I could see was just
Just junk, just stuff that would accumulate, just more clutter. And here it all was, especially as the register was very carefully designed. This is the equivalent of the candy at the registers of the grocery store, only this is aimed at, geared at people my age. Ooh, scented candles. And I just, yeah, the overwhelming takeaway was, look at all this trash. So definitely had that experience.
Nathan (06:07)
So here's my, here's my ultra cynical look at
this is you, is you, I can shop very fast. Usually within somewhere around four seconds of walking into a store. know whether not there's anything in there that I want or need, but also there are other entire categories where I'm like, if this entire store disappeared, it wouldn't meaningfully change anybody's life. I mean, it's just an entire.
Cameron (06:32)
There's a sense also, so let's bring in some other, let's ruin some fun now, because now that you've gone in this direction. there's, you already mentioned this about the cheap plastic trinkets and everything. There's the mass culture, mass commodification of stuff, where you lose quantity, quality, and you get quantity. So that's very real. So it's different from, think about toys. In the past, and this is not me, I'm not waxing nostalgic here.
I'm just talking about how the shifting, you know, just the shift in what has happened with mass production. But in the past, toys, you could go into a toy store and it was a real kind of art. These were handcrafted toys. You think about it, I think probably, yeah, here's something you didn't bargain for. You'll get Cameron's favorite Disney cartoon. It's Pinocchio. And part of what, you get a little bit of that in Pinocchio, don't you, with Geppetto in his toy shop.
Nathan (07:16)
Right. Mm-hmm. Made out of metal or wood.
Cameron (07:29)
And you see, it's a real art form. mean, the way he handcrafts these puppets, that he paints them, the care that goes into it. Well, that's clearly not the case now with the plastic cows and cars, hot wheels, cars and all of that. I mean, they're clearly just mass produced. They fell right off of an assembly line. Doesn't mean that, but that tends to, that has a cheapening effect and they don't tend to be cherished.
And they do tend to, it looks like this was designed to be under a couch or underneath couch cushions or under a bed.
Nathan (07:58)
Mm-hmm.
Well, actually,
what I said to Aaron was, was like, there's a lot of this that you look at it and you know good and well in three years it'll be in a landfill.
Cameron (08:13)
Correct, that's absolutely right. But also, so there's the mass, there's just the mass production that you have that tends to have a cheapening effect. Then there's also the sense that we're just so spoiled here in the West. We're so, we've reached a place of such over-saturation and such cultural decadence that many, think even kids are almost weary of just the vast accumulation of stuff.
Nathan (08:26)
Well, there you go.
Cameron (08:43)
Because also think about it, I think another factor here, Nathan, is so mass production, there's that, there's the sense that we're just all spoiled brats. But also every holiday is commercialized to an absolutely ridiculous degree. Look at Halloween. Now I know tariffs were a culprit here and all of that, but there were these stupid cheap Halloween costumes that were like $40.
Nathan (08:56)
Mm-hmm. Great.
you
Cameron (09:13)
little kids Halloween costumes that were hanging in the store. They start putting out, and of course Christmas now next, but they start putting out all of the massive five pound bags of candy well in advance. People buy thousand 12 foot skeletons. Yeah, all of this has a wearying effect on people too.
Nathan (09:29)
You need a 12 foot skeleton with a seven foot tall skeleton dog. Yeah.
Cameron (09:40)
whether they acknowledge it or not. in my experience, Nathan, more and more people are acknowledging it. saying, gosh, this is even, and I'm not talking about Christians. I'm just, everybody feels the empty cynical commercialism in all of these holidays. Here we are in Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving is a way station these days, isn't it? I mean, it's a stop between Halloween. Sadly, it's a stop between Halloween and Christmas, isn't it?
Nathan (10:04)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (10:04)
And
so rush past it and now we get it. Yes. And now we'll get all of the, well, all the Christmas, let's face it, all the Christmas stuff is out already. This is also a factor and all the junk that comes along with this. Here are all the Halloween decorations. Here are all the Christmas decorations. Here, you know, you, do you need another nutcracker, another Santa in your house? Yeah, it's tremendously tiring.
Nathan (10:23)
Well, so this is an interesting one that we
will. So so Aaron and I were talking about Christmas decorations seem to be different in that very often you would have a maybe a piece that was in your family or an ornament that had ⁓ a meaning to it that maybe you purchased on a trip or ⁓ probably for everybody listening, you know, maybe your mom or grandma has a cookie tin full of
Cameron (10:34)
Yeah.
Nathan (10:52)
little things stashed away, so getting out the Christmas decorations is a big deal because they have some sort of meaning or value or history to them that seems very different than like, I don't know, do people pass down Halloween decorations through their family? Or like, and here's the plastic turkey we stuck on the shelf during the,
Cameron (11:09)
Yeah, you got a point.
I remember the scarecrow so well. ⁓ the times we had. Yeah, you're right.
Nathan (11:16)
Yeah, yeah, this is
we shall act as pumpkin and preserved it. So it is interesting that Christmas does seem to have a.
Cameron (11:24)
Yeah, you're right. And we have those ornaments and decorations in our home too. And one of them, yeah, so that's true. does that mean that Christmas is exempt from the gross commercialization that we've been describing? Sadly, no. Yeah.
Nathan (11:40)
Okay, here's, is this part of a
a ⁓ desire that I have in my life is to think of fewer things in economic terms, to separate them from monetary value or... ⁓
Cameron (11:55)
Hmm.
Nathan (12:00)
And so, I do have some very deep ⁓ economic and political and monetary theory, but I want that to be a pretty small section of the total arc of my life and my relationships and where I find meaning. And so, part of it is that I'm trying to truncate ⁓ some of that and kind of the trash compactor it into a more narrow sliver of how I engage the world. And some of this
Cameron (12:07)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (12:28)
intense commodification of everything feels like a push in the opposite direction. ⁓ And so I sense a tension in there.
Cameron (12:37)
This is very much thinking out loud, but I wonder if what you're concerned about here, Nathan, is holidays, especially Christmas, are all about really relationships and the time we spend together. But in a society where we often spell value out in economic terms,
things are made to, being, we're trying to get them to give to us experiences that are inherently relational. They can be, no, they could be conduits perhaps, but you think about the way the ad industry works. mean, even if we're talking about a certain brand of whiskey or something, it's always, the ad is always an image of relationships and people having fun and the nightlife and all of that. But
I think increasingly we feel the hollowness of that, that things can't be substitutes for people. Now the commercial engine that's constantly purring along, it makes tons and tons of money. So that's why people push that and that's why we're flooded with not only ads, but the stores get taken over and all that. what we all, we're an intensely lonely culture. So what we really want is genuine experiences with human beings where we're laughing, we're having fun. boy.
Nathan (13:59)
⁓ so let's go real cynical here. Let's, let's,
Cameron (14:04)
Gosh. Okay, Scrooge. Yeah.
Nathan (14:04)
I might be wrong on this. Yeah. Get, get ready. Sit down. So, I mean, so there's that, you know, we, we buy things we don't need for people we don't like with money. don't have kind of use is summarizing the, ⁓ so hopefully that's not true in your life, but then think about, so I was with somebody once who was older and wiser than me in an airport and I asked them who in the world shops in an airport.
Like what is the deal with airport shopping? And he said, okay, look at what the valuable things that are for sale in an airport, jewelry, ⁓ certain high-end gifts. He said, what's available for sale in an airport are gifts that you buy for people to give as a proxy for the time that you weren't spending with them.
I'm like, that's a pretty, and so you've been gone on the work trip for a week. You missed the time with the kids. You buy this toy on the, on the way in as a, ⁓ and so there's a pretty hard hitting.
Cameron (14:50)
Hard to argue.
Take this in place of my presence.
Nathan (15:08)
Here's a present for the place of my presence.
Cameron (15:09)
Yes.
It's hard to argue with that. But I think the good news is more more of us are just waking up to this fact. there's a recognition, not only that we don't need all this stuff, we never have, but what we really want are the genuine experiences with other people, where we are sharing stories, laughing, crying.
being persons together. That is all too rare and that is what is desperately needed. the holidays, whatever holiday we're talking about, mean, at their core, yes, there's celebrations of certain people, places, and events, their real, their reason for existing is to bring people together.
Nathan (15:43)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
So,
okay, so if you do you really think of do you really want your mom to be stressed out of her mind on Christmas? In the preparation, like is that the point of the your the the host house like substitute your mom for whoever's house you're going to or whatever like is that the point of the is the frantic nature of it can just steamroll some pretty good moments and
You know, as you're saying about the substitution of presence and presence, there's a, so my sister-in-law's deeply mocked a tradition in the Rittenhouse family that I guess is multi-generational. We just do it and they do it too now, so they can't make fun of it. But very often when we give it, when we give a gift to somebody, we apologize for the gift in advance and just say, Hey, here's a little something I got you. And as a reminder, the value of this gift says nothing about our appreciation and respect.
you in the relationship that we have. And so, it's a verbal statement that's disconnecting. Like, let's not try to act like I found something that is valuable enough that it indicates something about the quality of the relationship that you have. And there's,
Cameron (17:15)
Yeah. This gift authenticates
my love and appreciation for you. Yikes. Pressure. Yeah. Yes.
Nathan (17:21)
But if you say it out loud in advance, like, Hey, I, you know, my brother got me
a can of WD-40 for my birthday. And it's a Chuck, like, Hey, I remembered you. Glad we have a great life together. I read nothing into that as a symbolic, ⁓ maybe I have more rusty things than people. don't, I, like, you don't, don't try to read into, so I think creating a culture around us in which gift giving is a way of acknowledging and, ⁓ understanding the other person.
Cameron (17:34)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Nathan (17:51)
but we're disconnecting the relationship from the economic value that some people attribute to gifts in that way.
Cameron (17:57)
Well, I think
you just inadvertently named another factor here that is part of the problem, and that is the social performance aspect, which doesn't often get named, but is so, so wearying. You talked about the pressure on the host. How often do we have, you you prepare a big meal and all that, and that is seen as a major social performance to cater to everybody's tastes. no, this person.
Nathan (18:07)
boy.
Cameron (18:23)
has a gluten allergy, this person is a vegetarian, this person. And so it becomes this huge ordeal or gift giving. There's, are, you know, we've all been in scenarios where gift giving does take on an outsized importance and you're all sitting together and all eyes are on you as you open the present. I always think of that. Yeah, anyway, a line in the movie, the great masterpiece of Western cinema, Wayne's World.
where his ex-girlfriend gives him a present, he opens it up and he goes, wow, a gun rack. I don't even own a gun, let alone enough guns to necessitate an entire gun rack. What am I gonna do with a gun rack? I just had to bring that in there because it's important. But those, that, yeah.
Nathan (19:09)
I'm get somebody get Cameron a gun
rack for Christmas. That's what needs to happen. But anyway.
Cameron (19:13)
That's right. But the social performance aspect where it becomes, again, that's a shift away from actual relationships where you're really just pouring into people. it's all, again, it's all about meeting some usually cultural standard, something like that. And that also, just adds that a lot of the pressure that we have here can be to a significant degree self-imposed. So.
Nathan (19:42)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (19:42)
Yeah, that's another, I'm not proposing necessarily solution to this. I'm just explaining, yeah, I'm just pointing to another thing.
Nathan (19:44)
But, well, think as
you're highlighting these things, though, it does show the fundamental motivations that drive a significant portion of our economy.
Cameron (19:55)
Sure, and we are molded by a lot of this. mean, the power of suggestion is real and unbelievably powerful and the commercial engine of our culture is amazingly effective and powerful. And it works, it works. It does shape our expectations to a very significant degree. So I think being forewarned is being forearmed as well and we can...
If we recognize some of this, can give us, we can begin to think about, what are some gentle, wholesome ways in which I can resist? What are some antidotes to these tendencies that just really rob us of relating to one another? Really actually being together.
Nathan (20:43)
Or I,
yeah, so maybe the question is, like, this isn't intended to feel guilty or to make myself feel bad about this, but to say, ⁓ is this a synthetic proxy for?
And the fact of the matter is, that if I wrote my mom a two page letter for Christmas, I guarantee you she can't remember what I got her for Christmas last year. You don't remember what somebody got you. So there's something about it that we know.
Cameron (21:17)
Those were amazing socks. I really appreciate that. Just kidding. Just joking.
Nathan (21:20)
You know
So another scar for Cameron the I guess I'm just saying is there a way in which I can think through the ⁓
If you have elements in your life where there's still room for deep relationship and joy and cling to that and push into it and don't let shortcuts become the standard.
Cameron (21:47)
Mm-hmm.
Okay, this is not an answer, but this is something that I've heard from a number of different people and I think it is an interesting alternative, but you've probably met a few people, Nathan families, who decided to forego presents and instead they opt for a family trip or excursion. the way they use, yeah, they'll say experience. But really what they want, it's not just an experience, it's something that they do together. So whether it's a skiing trip, I don't know what it is, whatever it is, it's...
Nathan (22:12)
Mm-hmm. Experiences. Yeah.
Cameron (22:25)
The point of it is you are going to be, you're going to be doing something together. It will be an experience that ideally speaking, you know, brings you close together and helps you to bond and all of that. rather than, and I've heard it explicitly said by some of these folks as well, yeah, we don't need any more stuff, but we would love to hang out together. And, and this is something we've always wanted to do as a family. I think, I think that's one, I don't think it's a, there's no one size fits all, but I think it's one example.
Nathan (22:52)
Well, you see this
definitely an increase in the, you know, the kids birthday parties where your presence is the present. Please don't bring a present. ⁓ I had a friend who he and his wife have seven kids and they just put out a family bulletin of if anybody buys our kid a toy that takes batteries, we're smashing it. And so yeah, the rate at which you can accumulate things is wild.
Cameron (23:00)
⁓ absolutely. Yes. Most, most I go to. Yeah. ⁓
Here's a drum.
Just kidding. Yeah.
Nathan (23:21)
So, but I think,
⁓ yeah, so I, okay, books would definitely be a thing on my list. I think tools, things that enable you to produce things or learn new things, those are all, and hey, you know, your four-year-old definitely wants to unwrap something shiny. So, you know, this is not poo-poo-y and everything in life, but. ⁓
Cameron (23:40)
of course.
Well, there's a difference between children and adults for sure, yeah.
Nathan (23:46)
Well, I guess, so I think we can easily see that. My original question was more toward a, are we pushing into a culture, you hinted at maybe because we're just moving entirely digital, but are we, are we foundering on consumption to a certain degree, to which we're just tired of consuming?
Cameron (24:09)
There may be a bit of a weariness there. My cynical take there would be, consumerism is just shifting into different directions. Because, I mean, you could go to some of the Silicon Valley moguls, and a lot is made of their minimalism. Steve Jobs was in this category. He had one house where he never fully furnished it because his taste was so exquisite. He could never find furniture that was up to his standards. I don't have enough eyes in my head to roll with that. But that's OK.
Nathan (24:35)
So maybe
we're just snowballing our wealth into narrower categories. ⁓ So having the $300,000 watch, but only having one watch is more important than, you know.
Cameron (24:42)
Why I think so.
Well, yeah, and Mark Zuckerberg has, I think he's described as very barren home with very little, almost no technology in it and all that. Oh, yeah, you're right. Yes. Very moving, very touching. He's still a multi-billionaire who spends exorbitant amounts of money. There are ways people spend on that, continue to consume. And even if they don't have lots of trinkets and
Nathan (24:57)
Facial Expression.
Well.
Cameron (25:16)
lots of stuff accumulated. I that's just another odd sign of wealth in our culture now.
Nathan (25:21)
Well, because I was going to say in the other
place where you see this up is obesity is correlated with poverty now, not with wealth. And so I also think that there's a volume of things in poverty and wealth ⁓ inverse relationship there also.
Cameron (25:26)
Correct. Yes. Correct. Yep.
No, I mean, if you go to a very many highly wealthy homes, you'll find, especially in Silicon Valley area or tech industry, I mean, are very, very spare and barren and, versus people who are, you know, lower income. Right. Right. They don't bear signs of signs of actual living in life, but you know, consumerism is alive and well. It's just different. Sure. Yeah, sure. And I think.
Nathan (25:51)
Well, also because they don't actually live in them, but.
But there's also a sense in which you don't hoard things when you know you can buy another one very easily.
Cameron (26:08)
But I mean, so I think consumerism is alive and well, it's just expressed in different ways. And we have a lot of the stuff that used to accumulate in our homes is now digital. So I do think that's a big factor. It's not everything. I also think not going out as often. People, but also Nathan, here's another, mean, this just goes right along with what you've said. There's a general sense of exhaustion and diminishment in the American service industry as well.
And then has a lot to do with economics. you could, I'll give it one example of recent, you know, recent example is, you know, I could think of going to a pizza chain that had very slick and smooth advertising on a day where we had to be a ton of different places at once. had parent teacher conferences, all the normal parent stuff, and we just needed a quick meal. Walking into this shop that's supposed to have hot pizzas, very cheap and ready, but the slick advertising on the one side that's in my head,
Nathan (27:05)
Wait a second, you're
not punching down on Little Caesars, you?
Cameron (27:10)
there you go. you, you, you, you, you, you, you got me. So yeah, pizza, pizza. I walk, but I walk in there and then when you actually go into the shop, everything is run down. There are only two people in there running this entire thing. There's an accumulating line. There are no, there are no pizzas available. All of the equipment looks defaced and dirty and the overwhelming takeaway and these two poor beleaguered employees and it of course everywhere there are signs help needed, help needed, help needed, help needed immediately. They were completely understaffed.
Nathan (27:11)
Okay. ⁓
Cameron (27:39)
But on the one hand, have this glossy advertisement image that was done very well, and then you have the actual depleted, exhausted reality that is life on the ground. And increasingly, yeah, I mean, that's a picture.
Nathan (27:48)
So maybe that's the, yeah, it's false advertising is, is
so on the backside of consumption, you feel worse off than you did before the, I, it,
Cameron (27:59)
Half the time I go out
with any friends or with Heather, we'll say, that was a complete letdown. We could make something better in our homes. And it's really true. So yeah, you guys are fine, but that meal was, but you know, so that, think that's another factor. mean, there's just a, there's a growing sense in which there's just so much that feels depleted and diminished and run down. And that's snapshot of the culture.
Nathan (28:07)
Not about the friends. Right. Yeah.
But you're in that shift,
in that shift though, in the things that I value, like you and Heather said, we could have produced that better. I do find like the things that I'm interested in are the things that enable me to be a producer rather than consumer. And a lot of hobbies are along that of obviously you can buy a hat for 97 cents at the dollar general, but choosing the yarn, sitting down and crocheting or knitting one, that one year producer, one year consumer,
Cameron (28:38)
Yes.
But that's the other big factor, Nathan.
Nathan (28:53)
But one of those is a, yeah.
Cameron (28:56)
But we have all of this.
I mean, we have all these information and these tools. so it used to be if you want some American Chinese food, I want chop suey or I want general SOS chicken. You have to go get general SOS chicken. Now you could just, I mean, you could instantly find the recipe and not only can you make it at home, you can make it really well at home and you can get all the ingredients you need. It used to be that nobody could ever look like.
Nathan (29:22)
That's spoken like somebody who doesn't
live in West Virginia, but yeah, go ahead.
Cameron (29:26)
Sure. Okay. Fair. But it used
to be that only bodybuilders and movie stars would look, would have a certain muscular build. Anybody can do it now because all of the information is out there now. can, you can tell AskChapGPT for Brad Pitt's diet in the movie Fight Club. And you can, you really, if you're disciplined enough, you can replicate it and you can do it. So that's another change where this stuff can connect. I it's all in the hands of the people now.
Nathan (29:55)
Well,
or think about 3D printing toys. So that's a whole thing at school right now. My kids are always running around with plastic things that they or their friends made from. So the means of production got skipped. You become the producer. And then the little plastic lizard is cool to you because you're the one who made it. You're not going to need to go buy one.
Cameron (30:00)
Yeah.
So we've reached a point of I think the exhaustion, the weariness with consumerism is real. I don't think consumerism is going anywhere. I think it's just getting channeled in different directions. So a lot of money is being poured into all of this new equipment at home, by the way, increasing new kitchen gadgets and all of that, or workout gear, whatever, to do this stuff and replicate it in your own space and time rather than going to outside sources to get it and buy it.
Nathan (30:42)
So we live in a time
where we're highly mobile. We don't want to have to lug things around with us. That's a big part of it. I talked a couple of months ago to a guy who said, I'm the seventh generation to live on our farm. He's like, do you know how much stuff gets accumulated in seven generations of being in one place? Yeah. And so, we're mobile. We don't collect things like that anymore. But at the end of the day, in all of the, you can get this analysis from a thousand different people.
Cameron (30:59)
Can't imagine.
Nathan (31:12)
But on the whole minimalist, like the, who is the, was it Marie Kondo? Who was the lady? Yeah, remember how she was the guru of organization and minimalism for a while, and then she totally changed her tune when she had kids? Yeah, makes the rest of us laugh. But the thing of it is, is you can't out-minimalize Jesus. Like years ago when I was doing more like the climate and environmental stuff and like consumption and trash and all of that, it's pretty hilarious.
Cameron (31:17)
Marie Kondo. Yeah, Marie Kondo, yeah.
And then she had kids. Yeah.
Nathan (31:40)
You will not run into somebody ⁓ who can outdo Jesus on the, know, birds have nest and foxes have holes, but the son of man has no place to lay his head. So, ⁓ yeah, I don't think he had it. And so what the value of that, of recognizing that deeply embedded within Christianity is a poverty possibility. Go sell all you have and give to the poor and then come follow me.
Cameron (31:49)
Yeah. The son of man has no place to rest. that? Yeah. That's true.
Do not store up for yourself books that wait, maybe he said that just to you and me, Yeah.
Nathan (32:12)
Drake. Careful. The,
go from meddling to preaching to meddling. there is a sense in which we have to recognize that the vast majority of Christians in this world were fortunate to die with the clothes on their back. And I think that's a good just baseline reminder for us. If you're modern English speaking in the West,
Cameron (32:22)
Yep.
Yeah, well said.
Nathan (32:39)
Even if you're making, you know, $27,000 a year, you're accumulating far more things in your habitat than the vast majority of humans in history have. And so, recognizing that there really is a freeing independence from material things just for having for status or having for whatever reason, give us this day our daily bread.
was the prayer we learned from our Lord. so there's, so I think Cameron, want to not like, look, you know, be judgy. That person has 47 yard inflatables that I can't really see a good reason for having. ⁓ Not judging in that way, but having a mindset that allows for freedom in my own life of ⁓ our old friend Tom Tarrant said, you know, you can travel much, farther and,
Cameron (33:09)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (33:36)
much lighter if you don't have, if you're not weighed down with heavy pockets. ⁓ And so there is a, at the end of the day, let's recognize that the excess that we have is just that. It's excess. It's not necessity. And therefore we shouldn't put our hope in our excess, or we shouldn't put our identity or our value, or we shouldn't use things to communicate value to other people. And so I guess it all comes back around to...
me wallowing in this idea of how do I truncate the economic sliver of my life down into the proper sized category. How do we really give to Caesar what is Caesar and give to God what is God's and see that that is not a 50-50 split. It's a disproportionate balance across the spectrum there. ⁓ So yeah, working on that. Thanks for talking to me about it.
Cameron (34:21)
Yeah, right.
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