Outraged at Fake Outrage: Taylor Swift, Culture Wars, and Christian Discernment

Cameron (00:00)

Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your co-host, Cameron McAllister.

Nathan (00:04)

And I'm outraged, Nathan Rittenhouse. In this episode, Cameron and I are outraged at fake outrage. This is a predominant theme that we see all over and start this one. In this episode, Cameron and I are outraged at fake outrage. I think you'll find many points in which this resonates with the experience that you might have of watching people gasp, horror shock surprise. And you're like, no, that's not true. ⁓ there's another motivation for you faking your outrage. Like share and subscribe our content.

And if you appreciate the work that we do and want to support it, you can do so by visiting www.toltogether.com.

Cameron (00:07)

I'm outraged too. And we're here to talk to you about rage. So let's start with Swifties.

Nathan (00:13)

I don't know if it's real rage, but it might turn into that. Here we go. All right. Lead us on Cameron.

Cameron (00:20)

Taylor Swift released Life of a Showgirl. Don't worry everybody. We're not going to really be talking about Taylor Swift, at least not for very long at all. And we're certainly not, I'm not going to give you any real opinions about Taylor Swift either. Sorry. But anyway, it has a number of, it has a song on it that is quite sexually explicit. It's called Wood. Not going to go into the details. You can figure those out, look them up for yourself. Here's why I bring that up, Nathan.

A lot of people are really allegedly angry about that. You have people talking about this, have Ali Beth Stuckey talking about this, cultural commentators saying, this is not the role model you want for our children, and especially for your little girls. Let me pause there because I can already see smoke coming out of Nathan's ears. What's your response to somebody who says that?

Nathan (01:14)

Well, yeah.

Well, I guess the question is, so this is the moment, this is the line that you think Americans pop stars are not maybe good role models for your little girls. So the whole thing just comes across as.

It can't, it can't, I don't know. It can't possibly be that people are like, this is where we're going to, so disingenuous. That's a, that's a, yeah, a generous way of putting it.

Cameron (01:36)

disingenuous?

I think, so let me take us into the territory. I'd like to go with this. We'll see where you want to go, Nathan. This has been on my mind quite a bit lately as I've considered, let's just, as I've considered the culture war. Let's put it that way. I think one of the points of tension that we find ourselves in, Nathan, you and I, and our approach on thinking out loud in general is that

Nathan (02:03)

Okay, yep.

Cameron (02:14)

we stand aside from the culture war. Nathan, you put it really well, not too long ago. You said basically, hey, I think America is Babylon. Another place that we could point is this is from Pilgrim's Progress. could say America is Vanity Fair. You conduct yourself accordingly. don't think ... Yeah.

Nathan (02:38)

But, and that's, but that, okay, but let me clarify there, just in case

people missed the context of that. That's not to say that we don't think it's great to be in America or that America is a bad place inherently, or there's anything wrong with our patriotism or love for the country in which we live. It's just saying that it in and of itself cannot embody or generate the spiritual or moral ⁓ paradigms that make it work. And so if you're trying to extract

Cameron (03:04)

Yeah.

Nathan (03:07)

a spiritual dynamic and a worldview and a moral framework as a Christian out of a political structure, it's not going to happen well, if at all. So that's the context there, just to be clear as we go. So yeah, where are we looking for our marching orders here? Matters.

Cameron (03:28)

Yeah, so let's, before I move on to broader themes, let's talk specifically just for a moment about Taylor Swift or what we brought up here. The reason, let's make a few arguments about this, Nathan. So I think both you and I would say that when you're looking at any kind of a pop star, when you're looking to them for guidance or as a moral role model,

You have already taken a step in the wrong direction. Now I can hear some people already screaming and saying, these people, whether they like it or not, assume an awesome responsibility and they are ambassadors and young people are looking to them whether they like it or not. Yeah, I've heard that argument before. That doesn't change. so be, yeah, well be the, and yeah, they sure, I mean, sells records.

Nathan (04:14)

No, they like it.

mean, entire industry is, the entire industry is,

yeah, this is how it works. That's the game.

Cameron (04:22)

Reticulated on yeah, yeah, but be that as it may let's set that to the side Does the artist have some moral responsibility? Well, sure are they going to use it responsibly almost certainly not this is part of what if you so if you do live in Vanity Fair if you do live in Babylon one thing that it can do is it can help you to temper your expectations and So if you recognize yeah, so if you live in Babylon Taylor Swift Sabrina carpenter

Nathan (04:42)

There you go.

Cameron (04:50)

Olivia Rodrigo or whoever it is, the Jonas Brothers, they're not going to Bad Bunny. They, wow, Nathan, let's just take a moment to appreciate this pop culture reference from Nathan. Of course, but these people are not going to, are not going to be paragons of virtue. In some ways, Nathan, this always takes me back to Elvis Presley. When he first burst onto the scene,

Nathan (04:55)

Bad Bunny.

I read the news sometimes.

Cameron (05:17)

And he was given the name Elvis the Pelvis by journalists. there was real moral outrage and people, because there was hysteria surrounding him. Also the Beatles, by the way. There was, there was Beatlemania. You know, there was hysteria around this. Girls were passing out at their concerts. People were just, were, were of swarming their vehicles. Same thing happened with the Rolling Stones. It's good to say this, cause it's just all that say it's nothing new. But I think there's no substitute.

for walking through these different singers, whatever they are, pop culture phenomenons with discernment with our own children. We have to do that. There's no one size fits all for that. So just to state that, if we recognize we're in a fallen order and that America is not some special place, but it's the country that we live in, we're both American citizens.

And we're happy to be here and we love our country, but we just have those proper expectations. Yeah.

Nathan (06:18)

Well, I think we can make it bigger than America, though. This is a global...

I mean, it's not like, you know, all the German pop stars are really clean. ⁓

Is there, there's a little bit of something here though that does point to the power of the arts in general. And this is part of their beauty is that they do allow ideas to slide more seamlessly through cultural gatekeepers and kind of our, like how many people listening, you know, if you're honest, have, found yourself humming along to or singing along to a song that has a really catchy tune and really bad lyrics. And when I mean bad, mean like gross, you're like, wait a second. That's not, but

because the rhythm of the tune or the maybe even the artistic skill of a different medium pulls you into participating in something that if you like broke it down to what is actually being communicated here, you'd be like, oh no, gross. I don't want to have anything to do with that. there, we don't want to make this sound like, oh, this is super easy because art and music are powerful things. And we as humans are hardwired to resonate deeply with messages presented in those formats. So this isn't

This is not a condemnation of people who enjoy the arts. It's simply saying, why are like, at this threshold, suddenly we're going to be appalled by something? Where I think a lot of people would be like, well, if you had been paying attention, like, I don't know, the last 2000 years, you probably would have been appalled a little sooner.

Cameron (07:48)

So let's bring in, let's go a little bit more broad here for a second and we can come back here anytime you want. You're right, the arts, part of their power and part of their danger is in their power to seduce and to slip past the watchful dragons as C.S. Lewis put it so well, meaning to slip past your kind of moral scruples or your critical faculties. can, yeah, if you're seduced, if you're enchanted by something, it's just very powerful. And in some ways,

You could make an argument that music is at the very forefront. Some people would focus on images, but music is really powerful. You internalize it. So yeah, it just, has a way of captivating that few other other art forms do. So it's worth pointing that out. But Nathan. All right. Let's, let's put one, let's put one thing on the table here. A lot of people will talk about a big artist like Taylor Swift because it's an easy way to get web traffic.

Nathan (08:47)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (08:47)

You know,

if Taylor Swift has a new album coming out, everybody's going be talking about it. Everybody's going to be, you know, it's going to captivate the public imagination. And if you want to get views, you talk about Taylor Swift. So there's that too. why is fake outrage such a big thing these days? so here's one line. Yeah.

Nathan (09:11)

Oh, I'm going to answer it once you give your

answer. You go first. Oh, it's a part of community development and formation. This is how we find our people. So think of the story in the New Testament where you have the man who's beating his breast before God, doesn't even look up to heaven. And then the other guy praying, I thank you God that I'm not like that. That story is given to us as a

Cameron (09:16)

I want to hear your answer first. boy.

Nathan (09:40)

internal conversation between two men and Jesus says, you know, that the former rather than latter went away justified. Now we live in a time where we don't look to the heavens and say, I think you got that. I'm not like that person. We post about that and we find all the other people who thank God that they're not like that person. And then that becomes our community. So our outrage towards some other behavior or political party or person or entity or organization becomes the way in which we signal who we are.

not, well, partly as an identity forming thing, but more clearly as a boundary set, like of showing your in-group that you're still in the group and finding your people, finding your tribe. ⁓ And so that same thing can be said for bumper stickers, political signs, in all manner of the way we dress, talk, speak, what we listen to. So all of us are communicating something with our words and our lifestyle and our clothing and our choices of vehicle. Like everybody does this. So it's not like we don't.

You do it. If you're listening to this and you're human, you do this. But some of these forms of outrage definitely play into sort of a staying on brand category of how do I find my people who are also, you know, outraged at the same thing are also just like the same thing. So I think there's a, an identity and a community building aspect of, of some of this.

Cameron (11:01)

Surprise, surprise, you and I are saying similar things here. So I think.

underscore what you've just said. One of the best or one of the better works of cultural analysis out there is René Girard's The Scapegoat. And in that book, he argues very much what Nathan is saying here. He'll say that one of the ways to bring people together is through a common enemy. And so to do that, you scapegoat. Now, part of what makes this sad is that you think

that a lot of these issues on the surface are presented as issues of values. We are deeply offended by a sexually explicit song from Taylor Swift, who has an audience of many, you know, many members of our audience are very young people. But in fact, what's really happening here is, and there will be traces of that, but what this is more about is, because after all, if what we've said is true,

Nathan (11:47)

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (12:10)

Taylor Swift doing that is so, it's not surprising. Not only is it not surprising, it's totally and completely predictable. After all, if you look at the average trajectory of a female pop star, this is, could almost say begins in the Disney Channel, gets a record contract, flirts around with the edge, and then goes on a gradually more more seductive journey. This is true of Britney Spears, this is true of Sabrina Carpenter.

This is true of Miley Cyrus. On and on we could go. So I'm just saying this to state this is an entirely predictable move. So what does that leave us with? That leaves us with people trying to common enemies, negative situations that can help them consolidate a movement to consolidate their identity.

So behind a lot of this really is politics more so than values. And yeah, I'm going to leave it that. I'm going to say that. I think that's true. I know that's going to make some people mad.

Nathan (13:19)

Okay. Yeah. Well, cause well,

there's an in-between step that we skipped over, but here's why we skipped over is the other thing. The way that this comes across though, is that people are incredibly naive. So that's how I would experience watching people's fake outrage. Either you're naive or you're virtually signaling. Cause it's hard for me to think that you just now realized

that something is up in this industry. What's the title of the album? Showgirl? That's what everybody wants their little kid to grow up to be, right? showgirl? You're either giving way too much credence to it and you're using it for your own personal identity formation or you're totally naive about the way that the world... You can almost imagine the fake gasp with a hand over the mouth. Like, can't believe. No.

And for lack of better words like grow up. This is the world that we live in Non-christians are going to do non-christian stuff people who have millions of views do them because of you know sexually explicit content is part of the entertainment industry like Take our head out of the sand here and look at the way that the world really works and do with it as it is But if you're like if you're just suddenly outraged about something there's going to be a large percentage

I think people our age and other ages as well that are Christians are going to be like, ⁓ good grief. Like seriously, where have you been? Why is this suddenly surprising to you? And so it comes across not as you're virtuous. It comes across as either you're naive about the brokenness of the world around you and the reality of sin, or you haven't really been paying attention, or you're doing this for some self-serving reason. ⁓ And that's why we skipped those in between parts because Cameron and I

Cameron (15:06)

Or. Right.

Nathan (15:13)

aren't really willing to believe that people were that naive that they're just now offended by something Taylor Swift might do. I don't know how we got on Taylor Swift. We could do this with all sorts of other categories.

Cameron (15:22)

No, I'm not. do I?

Nathan (15:30)

Can you believe Cameron, make movies these days that have the F word in them? I mean, that's what it, I mean, that's what it comes across sounding like.

Cameron (15:30)

Well, do I really believe that?

Well, you know what the example that popped into my head, Nathan, would be if somebody was shocked that a show like Euphoria on HBO features explicit sex and drug use or that Game of Thrones has explicit sexuality in it. Really, you're shocked that HBO has, you know, which is builds its brand around this, is showing this kind of thing. Also, another way of putting it to just

Nathan (15:58)

Yeah.

Cameron (16:07)

illustrate the point. Do I really believe that experienced Christian reporters are shocked by a sexually explicit song from Taylor Swift? No, I don't. So if they make content that expresses shock and outrage,

Nathan (16:22)

I mean, this is what it sounds like.

It sounds like this, if you're having trouble following along with it. It's like me being like, Cameron, I cannot believe there are apples on that apple tree.

I mean, it's an apple tree. That's why it has apples on it. It's ⁓ so yeah.

Cameron (16:42)

So part of

here, so hear us carefully. If you're, this is why both Nathan and I, there's a sentence that both of I, both Nathan and I noticed in Paul King's North's new book, Against the Machine. He's talking about politics, but he could easily be talking about the culture war as well. He said, you know, basically people fighting over these issues, it's the picture he has is of two bald men fighting over a comb.

It's an exercise in futility. is largely, now it's important for us to state this outright because it will name some of the frustrations some of you have when you listen to us. Are we saying, if we say something like the culture war is largely an exercise in futility, are we saying, walk away, don't do anything, don't try to help, don't try to be salt and light? No, by no means are we saying that.

What we are saying is that to be a Christian in a fallen world means that you're part of a fallen moral order in whatever city or whatever nation, whatever neighborhood you find yourself. It doesn't mean it's not a recipe for quietism at all, but it also means that you walk in with the proper expectations. not going to, now you can see reform, you can, and you can see change.

But you have to think in smaller, more local terms where you actually exercise some influence. And for some of us that might mean, hey, my children are not going to listen to certain music. That's fine. You work this out in different ways, but the notion that we need to call for some major change in our artists that we would somehow take back the culture so that you wouldn't have people making this kind of music, I think

That's misguided.

Nathan (18:39)

You know, that's a charitable way to put it. think. Are we there? There's also a sense in which it seems to me, Cameron, that we are. I'm going to tread carefully here. How does how to phrase this? The end of what I want to say is like, I really don't feel like I need a online influencer to tell me that Taylor Swift isn't a good role model for my daughter. I want to be able to figure that out on my own. Pretty easily, just by basic Christian discernment, I don't need a political movement.

in order to help me arrive at that conclusion. Like I got there a long time before Ali Beth Stuckey told me, or I'm just using that as an example of whoever it was, whatever the context is, like, some of this just seems like, really? Like some of this just falls in the category of what I would consider like basic Christian discernment and parenting. doesn't.

Cameron (19:16)

Yeah. Whoever it was. Yeah. Yep.

Yeah, it does. But again, if it's serving a

Nathan (19:33)

And so its existence is scary

to me for a different reason.

Cameron (19:38)

If it's serving a political purpose, which is what I think it is, then it helps to have a common enemy for your, you can coalesce, your movement can coalesce around a common enemy. And now is this, this is not peculiar to Christians. Everybody is doing this. People on all sides of the political aisle are doing this and trafficking in kind of alarmism. you look at history, will, know, historians and sociologists have long pointed out

Nathan (19:55)

right, yeah.

Cameron (20:06)

What's really good for the economy and what's really good to get a culture kind of working together again and to galvanize everybody, you need a war. And I mean, that's nothing new. Yeah. You need so, but what happens when you don't have an actual Nazi or you don't have an actual communist? boy. Well, now you've got to find, you have to find an enemy. You got to find an enemy that you can use to mobilize your movement. so think about also.

Nathan (20:15)

sure. Yeah.

Cameron (20:35)

I'm just, while we're treading in through this minefield, let's just step on a few mines, Nathan. Think about the evolution of the word, the neologism woke.

Look at how that was used because this is a concrete example we can. Yes, initially it just meant it was just a cinnamon. There you go. It was a cinnamon. It was a synonym for being socially conscious. Yeah, right. But it was a synonym for being socially conscious and aware of levels of systemic corruption and racism that happened. But then gradually,

Nathan (20:49)

It was a compliment.

For real.

Cameron (21:15)

It was used in a very cynical fashion and we actually have, it's on record. mean, somebody like Christopher Ruffo, I remember reading through his playbook. He actually composed a playbook of how he would take this specific concept and tarnish it and use it to mobilize the right against a common enemy. so he said, what we're going to do is we're going to associate woke with radical forms of left-wing thought. We're going to associate it with.

Neo-Marxism. you can see now that this was largely successful, by the way. But let's just to be equal opportunity offenders, Nathan, we've talked here before about Patrick Deneen. So I've seen left-wing people use similar tactics against someone like him. He's sort of, he's sympathetic to some right-wing figures and some of them, let's be honest, fairly fringe. mean, Victor Orban, come on. But to then use phrases like

fascist adjacent to describe Patrick Deneen. That's doing the same thing. And is it accurate? Absolutely not. It's not accurate at all. He's a devout Catholic who teaches at Notre Dame University for goodness sakes. Fascist adjacent? One of the real tragedies here is the way that words and languages cheapened when you do this. Fascist ceases to, these days a phrase like fascist doesn't even really mean that much anymore because it's so overused. But you see,

Nathan (22:15)

Mm-hmm.

You know what Cameron? So.

Cameron (22:42)

This is a cynical game that people are playing for power. It's not about values. It's not about. So anyway, yeah.

Nathan (22:46)

BUT

Yeah. Okay. So

let me just, let's zoom out here. Cause I'm, think I'm starting to put my finger on what really irritates about this. And what it is, is it's fundamentally dishonest and it's not precise with words and it's intellectually lazy. When you just start quickly adding labels to people for stuff that they don't have anything to do, or you suddenly have an aha moment. Like, I hadn't been thinking about this category for a long time. Suddenly I'm offended by it. It just,

Yeah, it's just fundamentally dishonest across the board. And I think you and I are cringing in a moment in which the more ambiguous, but the more flamboyant, no details necessary conversations are the ones that gain the most traction and shape the public imagination to the highest order. And I would say we shouldn't be surprised by that as Christians, but as Christians, we should have a far deeper ability to discern, to fact check,

to speak truth, to recognize we're going to have to give an account for every word that we speak. We do have a much higher standard in what we place in our minds, what comes out of our mouths, what we like, share and subscribe to, what we focus on, how we label and think about other human beings. ⁓ and so I just, I sense this, this tension that, ⁓ within the church, like the tension between the church and the non-church is always going to be there.

because it's a different set of moral values and principles. But within the church, here this podcast is a little bit of a like, hey, to the Christian, think about this, like, and be careful with your words and be honest about what's actually in your heart. And in doing so, that'll probably lead you to being quiet a whole lot more.

Cameron (24:22)

Mm-hmm.

Well, one thing that needs to be said is that this is very effective. Scapegoating works. That's why people do it. So yes, if you want to take a slogan or a soundbite about somebody and run with it, what's going to win out? The soundbite or the slogan or the more discerning, more complex, more ambiguous examination of the person? Well, the slogan is going to win every time.

And people are going to say, well, no, this guy, just this person has more clarity. They have backbone. They know what they're saying. Do they? Or are they just taking the easy road? This is just, this is the game that people are playing in the culture war. it's just again, largely it's about gaining control and power. It's not necessarily always about values. And that's the sad.

That's the sad fact about it. that's why, let me ask you this, Nathan. Taylor Swift writes a song about her well-endowed, new, soon-to-be husband. Are you offended?

Nathan (25:50)

Let me tell you a story. Can I tell you story about my great grandma in response to this question? I'll see if I can make this connection. there was a, um, let's see what year would this been? This has been like the 1950s. So my great grandma has a daughter who's in college. She comes home wearing a skirt that at the time was apparently a little too short. I don't know what that is in the fifties, like me length or something. And somebody at their church says, I'm surprised that a Christian lady like you would let their daughter dress like that.

To which my great-grandmother replied, I'm surprised that a Christian man like you would notice.

yeah. And so there's, there's a little bit of a, like, there's, there's not a direct parallel there to the, to the question you're asking, but there's, there's a little bit of like, ⁓ how do I honestly say I don't care? ⁓ to, to, to some of the stuff that help me out here, I'm digging myself in a hole, but fix it.

Cameron (26:29)

Touche.

You know what's ironic?

You're not, you're not. What's ironic is...

We are surrounded by a cultural scene where it is, it's very, you really can, you can say with full, you know, full conviction is nothing sacred and you and I are not offended, but we are offended by people acting like they're offended by all of that.

Nathan (27:18)

Yeah, welcome to Thinking Out Loud. Let's take this to the meta level quickly.

Cameron (27:20)

I am offended.

I'm offended by people pretending to be offended. That does annoy me because it's dishonest, as you've just said. I would rather people sober up and just admit this person represents a side that I don't like and I want my side to win. I'd rather people just be honest about that. And I'd rather they say that than hide behind the, you know,

Nathan (27:28)

Yeah, it's dishonest.

Cameron (27:53)

the veil of supposed moral offense, which I just, yeah, I'm like you, Nathan. I think we've been here for a while. And also, let's open this can of worms. Christians are part of this. This whole idea, if we are in a state of cultural decline, all of us are numbered in it, and we all have a part to play in it. And I don't see a whole lot of ownership.

on the part of many people who are screaming about how bad our culture is. In what ways do I aid and abet this culture? How am I part of this cultural scene? This is a shared culture. so I think that's part of the conversation as well. think what we're calling for is a way of discernment and prayer.

recognition that we live in a fallen world and also a recognition that this world as it is will remain fallen. Changes can be made but they're largely on a smaller scale and at the I mean if you're calling for discipleship of the heart for people you want you're talking about face-to-face nitty-gritty kind of work and having anyway

Nathan (29:20)

Yeah, my future hope for the world has nothing to do with a theoretical possible reformation of the American pop music industry. Like it's just not even on my radar as a category of like, is an important... So here's the other thing. If Taylor Swift releases a gospel album, I'm going to largely feel exactly the same way.

Cameron (29:21)

I think I'm rambling, but.

There you go. Well said. Yeah.

Yeah, that's the other side of the coin, isn't it? We have, and we've been there. That's what happened with, what happened with Kanye West. Yeah.

Nathan (29:53)

That's the other side. So let's run this. Yeah, so.

Right. You're like, well, since when did we start taking our theology from... So, it's not a... So there is that piece of this a little bit deeper, partly in that it doesn't matter what the content is. It's the category that's given us the content that is lamentable to me that Christians are offshoring their moral and spiritual discernment to celebrities. It just seems like...

Cameron (30:06)

Mm-hmm.

Nathan (30:29)

unsound footing for anybody in any category of life.

Cameron (30:36)

So in conclusion here, some some admonitions from us. Don't substitute your politics for your values and don't pretend to be outraged by stuff that shouldn't surprise you. Taylor, Taylor, Dallas Willard, that's not Taylor Swift. Dallas Willard said that a mark of spiritual maturity was not being shocked. And the older I get,

Nathan (30:55)

you

Mm-hmm.

Cameron (31:05)

the more I see the truth of that statement. just have the proper expectation. I'm saying this to myself as much as to listeners, but we all need to have the proper expectations. we think about the world around us, when we think about our neighborhoods, we think about our workplaces, especially for those of us who work in areas of ministry. I think sometimes

there's an unhelpful idealism that can creep in. You you hear people say, I can't believe this is happening in a church or this is happening in a ministry of all places. But I can because you're still dealing with human beings. That doesn't excuse anything that happens, but it does offer an explanation. Yeah. Sad, but not surprised. That's all. I've always loved Nathan's phrase there. And I think that's apt when it comes to this episode.

Nathan (31:50)

You can be sad, but not surprised.

Now we just got to come up with some kind of clickbait title for this to get you to click on it. Some sort of moral, you can't believe what they said. ⁓ Outraged at the crowd gasp when they said, no, I mean, it's, the marketing thing of our world and we're not going to, I'm not even, I'm not even good at it. man. Anyway, they were going to come up with, yeah, somebody quick, helpless. ⁓ No, anyway, this is a, this is not us participating in the same thing that we're accusing other people of participating in. This is.

Or this is us saying, Hey, we all do it, but let's pump the brakes a little bit on what it is that we decide to use our time getting worked up about with and ⁓ spend some time before the Lord on what should you be focusing on with your day, your time and your energy and your talents. And that might be a better spot to start than the offended talking heads of the world. You've been listening to Thinking Out Loud, podcast where we think out loud about current events and Christian hope.