Was Charlie Kirk a Martyr?
Cameron (00:01)
Hello and welcome to Thinking Out Loud. I'm your cohost, Cameron McAllister.
Nathan (00:05)
And I'm your co-host Nathan Rittenhouse.
In this episode, we do a deep dive into the word martyr, particularly around the death of Charlie Kirk, his assassination. And we break down three categories of the ways in which people might be thinking about Charlie's death and martyrdom. We want to be clear and specific with our words and take into account the history of what a martyr actually is. And then conclude with an optimistic note about not living with fear.
You'll find this helpful if you're trying to also make sense of the language that's being used both in the political and the Christian world and their hybridization around the term martyr these days. If you enjoy what we're doing, you can like it, you can share it, you can leave us a review. And if you want to donate to what we're doing, you can do so by visiting www.toltogether.com. Thanks so much.
Cameron (00:07)
Today we're going to talk about a difficult subject. We're going to talk about martyrdom and we're going to relate it specifically to Charlie Kirk. We've wrestled a little bit back and forth with when precisely to do this because it's obviously the man has just recently died and it felt in poor taste to do this too soon. But on the other hand, this conversation
regarding martyrdom is an important one and it is not slowing down. It is only ramping up. And that's of course just typical of our age where everybody, I mean, yeah, I mean, everybody just talks about everything all at once now and processes everything all at once. And so we want to, we want to walk through this as carefully as possible. And as always, we'll, we'll give a few caveats. Remember that we get things wrong and it's important that all of us.
Nathan (00:38)
You're going to hear this word more. Unfortunately, it's coming.
Cameron (01:01)
All of us have the right to get things wrong. This is how we learn. This is how we develop morally. Yes, that's all we're asking. And also we'll just point out that to date things can change, of course, things always can change with news developments, but to date we don't have a clear motive for the murder. Tyler Robinson, as far as both of us can see, is not cooperating with authorities. He's not divulging a motive. And I think we have to...
Nathan (01:06)
But slow down and think about this one with us. That's all we're asking.
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (01:30)
face the fact that he may never cooperate in the way that people want. But even on that note, Nathan, mean, I think we'll say something we've said before when it comes to any kind of murder or crime like this. Even if he were to disclose a crystal clear motive, it might go some way toward giving some closure, but it wouldn't help in the ultimate sense. comes a place, there's a place where you just scratch your head and you just say how you still are going to say, how could this happen?
No explanation is up to the task of giving a full, yeah, settlement.
Nathan (02:00)
Well, and that comes back,
I think, to the uneasiness that, and we've talked about this before, we, and rightly so, we're meaning-seeking creatures, but we want evil to have a rationality to it. And it most often doesn't. So it's hard to, I mean, now sometimes there are clear links, like this person said this, hated this person because of this, you know, whatever, like there is a, ⁓ but when you get really down into the,
the depth of it.
That's part of what makes it evil is that there isn't a coherence to it. ⁓ And that's unsettling to us, and it should be, but that's part of the ball of wax that we're trying to chew as we're processing. So I'm just saying that's the craving for an instantaneous desire to know exactly what the motivation was in that, which I'm not saying is wrong, but I'm just saying that it's okay to sit with the uneasiness of not knowing something.
because that is part of the process when something tragic happens.
Cameron (03:05)
Okay. So before we launch into a full blown discussion, let's not make the mistake that is so easy to slip into right now, which is just to start talking without looking at definitions first. I know it sounds boring. People love it when they bring this up. Well, we got to begin with definitions, but the first thing Nathan did as we began to talk about having this discussion was he reached for this hoary dictionary, this massive tome. And if you're, if you're watching on YouTube, you see this thing. Look at that. Let's, let's get the definitions.
Nathan (03:23)
You
Look at this sucker. Yeah. This, was a gift. This was a birthday gift to me as a
teenager. mean, 1954 Webster, this could, I should weigh this thing sometime, you know, clocking in at a, at a good several thousand pages here. Um, okay.
Cameron (03:43)
All right.
Full disclosure,
when I was a teenager, wanted gift cards to Hot Topic, but Nathan gets this old dictionary. And in a word, there's a difference between us. I'm just kidding.
Nathan (03:55)
Well, for my seven, yeah.
You know,
for my 17th birthday, I received an eight-foot unicycle. It just was all crazy from there. ⁓ Okay, so Merriam-Webster, 1954. the desire here really is to use... We want to be precise with our language. All of us do. ⁓ And so here's martyr. ⁓ Definition one. One who by his death bears witness to the truth of the gospel as Stephen was the first Christian martyr.
Cameron (04:05)
Mmm.
Nathan (04:29)
Definition number two, one who suffers death or great loss in defense of any cause as a man dies a martyr to his political principles or to the cause of liberty. So pretty straightforward. think both of those would be well within the realm of what most of us probably intuitively think martyr is. ⁓ Etymologically, martyr is the Greek word for witness. So the word martyr shows up all over in the New Testament.
It can be as a verb or as a noun or someone who bears witness. ⁓ So that idea of Stephen as a martyr fits right in there. He's a witness to the gospel. ⁓ Martyrs' Mirror, Fox's Book of Martyrs. We have these massive anthologies of, yeah, I have some, I should have pulled those down too. I have some massive old volumes of some of those books as well. ⁓ Of just accounts of the people who were ⁓ brought before our council. ⁓
indicted in a formal appeal and then taken out and executed because they've refused to recant ⁓ in all sorts of disgusting ways. anyway, nothing new and surprising there, I think, when we look at the fundamental definitions.
Cameron (05:43)
And I think we need to mention Nathan that abundant horrendous examples are on display right now of Christians being slaughtered in mass and martyred. Yeah.
Nathan (05:51)
⁓ yeah.
Cameron (05:57)
So let's begin with those two definitions in mind. Let's dip our toe into this discussion. And I'll go first and then let's hear from you, Nathan. The first difficult, so of those two definitions, if we wanna connect one to Charlie Kirk right now, straightforwardly or relatively straightforwardly, it would be as a ⁓
political martyr. But even there, even there, there's some ambiguity because as we just said earlier, we don't have a clear motive from the shooter. But I think it's possible to reasonably conclude that part of what drew him to these actions had to do with, mean, Charlie Kirk was such a prominent figure because first and foremost, he was instrumental in securing the young vote for Donald Trump.
So regardless of where you fall on the political spectrum, that makes him a formidable political figure. And so I think it makes sense to say, and his fame was, I think, first and foremost, this might be a little bit debatable. So I'd love to hear you push back if there's some needed pushback here, Nathan. But I would say that probably most of his fame, I mean, his notoriety came from being a political activist first and foremost. Now it's true to say though, toward the end there, he was beginning to speak more
explicitly about Jesus and very boldly and very forthrightly. And I think we've praised that on this podcast already, but nevertheless, I still think if we're connecting one of these two definitions, the clearer fit would be the political martyr piece. But even that is a little bit obscure because of Tyler Robinson's silence here.
Nathan (07:51)
Okay, so I
see three possibilities here and there are probably more. All right, so one is you say ⁓ he was killed for publicly defending his faith, in which case he would be a Christian martyr. Now, like you said, we don't really know what the motives of the shooter were. Like even the engravings on the bullet casings said, fascist catch. It didn't say, hey, Christian catch. So we still don't have a clear link there. But however you want to parse that, one camp you could fall into one way the other and say,
He was obviously killed for being a Christian in public. And I know that a lot of people are in this category because immediately the proliferation of Christians are under attack, Christians are being shot, Christians are under threat, know, protect yourself. Language from Christians who immediately wanted to identify as the Christians were the ones who were the ones who were under threat as a result of this was all over the place. ⁓ So that's
one position you can hold and you have to work out the details of whether or not there's a direct link there. ⁓ The second one is to say that he was a Christian who was martyred for his political reasons and political rationale and political engagement. ⁓ in that sense, you're using the Webster definition too of saying here's somebody who was martyred because of his allegiance to a ⁓ political party and policy or the pursuit of liberty who also happened to be a Christian.
So in that sense, he's a Christian who was martyred for political reasons, but not because he was a Christian. Then, so that would be another camp that people could fall into, I think, who would see him as a political martyr, but see a disconnect between that and his faith. Then I think there's a third category, which perhaps, I don't have numbers in my mind of what I think the relative ratios are here. Then there would be a third category, which would say, actually,
Charlie's faith and his politics were exactly the same thing. So Christian martyr as a total Christian political martyr would be a whole package statement and phrase. And I think there are ways in which you could go back and look at some of the things that Charlie Kirk had said about, ⁓ these are fundamentally spiritual issues, so I have to be involved in politics in order to have spiritual conversations.
That in and of itself is an interesting theological and political idea, but I think it would fit well within that category of saying Christian political martyr is one whole lump. ⁓ Did I muddy the waters there or did I lay out what I think are three possible points of confusion or categories people could find themselves in?
Cameron (10:20)
Mm-hmm.
Well, I think, no, I think you laid it out clearly. And I think what many people have been saying, what we have heard them saying it, and I suspect some of our listeners would say is that, yeah, his politics and his Christianity were of, you know, they were basically inseparable. There's an inextricable link there. So if he is a political martyr, he is necessarily also a Christian.
Nathan (10:56)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (11:05)
martyr because his politics flow directly from his Christian convictions. So I think that's where I think we need to spend our time there talking about that.
Nathan (11:08)
Correct. Yeah.
Okay, hang on.
Before we go there though, I'm gonna do something to you that you don't want me to.
Cameron (11:18)
Mm.
boy, here we go.
Nathan (11:22)
Here's
let let's use, let's let's use a different example from the past. That's complicated. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, somebody's thinking it. So we got to talk about it. Cause cause in my mind, there's a parallel here where you have Dietrich Bonhoeffer, theologian teacher, deeply involved in the, ⁓ what do you want to call the form of church that he was part of during the Nazi regime?
Cameron (11:32)
We do, you're right, yeah we do.
Hmm.
Nathan (11:52)
So he's a Christian in that sense. He also was a massive political behind the scenes agitator and worker, is executed not specifically because he was Christian, but because he was involved in a plot with an attempt to kill Hitler. Is he a Christian martyr? So you have somebody who's very publicly Christian, very politically involved, and gets killed
Cameron (12:18)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (12:21)
for and then fill in the blank. And there are a whole range of, uh, Bonhoeffer biographies that answer that question differently of, know, as he was a Christian martyr, what was he a Christian that was martyred for his politics or he was martyred because he was Christian or his political activism came right out of his Christianity. So in my mind, those same three categories, various people, depending on how you want to look at the history of it, will wrestle with the same. So this is, I just want to say, this is not a unique, um, and it's not to minimize.
You're like, man, are you guys trying to psychoanalyze the and parse the nuance details of the definitions here? ⁓ in the time of a tragedy? Yeah, we're not saying that it's not tragic. We're just wanting to think clearly about the words that we use because it massively changes the way in which we think politically, but also as we think Christian Lee about the number of people who are out there thinking that people are about to snipe them because they're a Christian.
matters. So anyway, sorry to bring Bonhoeffer in, but I'd be happy for you to give a thought or two there if the categories fit.
Cameron (13:27)
No. Yeah, well, words are terribly important because words have to do with how we understand reality and how we make sense of our words, of our world rather. So we need to, we need to be thinking carefully about words and words of course get weaponized very quickly today. That's a unique feature of our age. mean, words have been weaponized in the past, but it happens much faster now because of the channels that we have at our disposal. So that's why we want to think carefully about a word like, like martyr.
With regard to Dietrich Bonhoeffer, there is a very detailed and careful and sophisticated scholarly debate that has raged for a long time about his status as a martyr. I would say, let's bring in some of the details here are important because Bonhoeffer was also a very outspoken and bold critic of the capitulation of the Lutheran church.
in Germany at the time to the Third Reich because the church was sadly, I mean, there was resistance, but I think remnant language is really important here, Nathan, and very helpful. There was a faithful remnant in Germany, but it was small. Many of the churches were capitulating and it the church standing on its head fighting fiercely against it.
Nathan (14:46)
and it had the church standing on its head. I mean, there was pressure there.
Cameron (14:53)
Again, the church was comprised of the spokesmen, key spiritual leaders at the time. Many of them were very clever and enterprising people. also, and again, we have to, we've got to think, I think we have to think responsibly about history. So if you're, if you're in this scenario, the kind of moral clarity that we have looking back in hindsight wasn't available to everybody, but they knew enough. But also people were trying to save their own skin. Yes, it's.
But self-preservation is a very real human instinct that often kicks in. And if you are not schooled in spiritual disciplines, and if you're not being shaped by Christ in his way and his word and his people, you're very, all of us, to a person, are very susceptible to just try to look out for our own interests. And so a lot of these enterprising spiritual leaders came up with sophisticated ways to rationalize capitulating to the powers that be. Bonhoeffer was having none of it. So he was a figure of controversy.
Not just for his political involvement, but he was a figure of controversy also in theological and spiritual terms. So I do think that that puts him and also his very occupation. Bonhoeffer was not a political activist. was a theologian. And really in some ways he was kind of a, I mean, a pastor. was, we, we now, mean, where we're at, Nathan, I'm in a place where I can appreciate just how young Bonhoeffer was, which is now that's, that's another remarkable feature of some of these, these thinkers have admired for years, you know,
Nathan (15:57)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (16:20)
Flannery O'Connor, Simone Weil, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and now you see how young they were, my goodness, and how much they were, not just the level of sophistication of their thinking, but the wisdom that they had, the kind of amazing, piercing moral clarity, which I think we can say was probably a gift of the Holy Spirit. so those are some of the distinctions I would point to, Nathan.
Nathan (16:37)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Well, I guess there's a question is like, let's work, do some work here for a minute, because I think we need to re-justify whether or not we're, this is important to be able to make a meaningful distinction with our terms here. In a sense that Bonhoeffer in prison, awaiting execution was not sitting there thinking, now am I a Christian who's a martyr for political reasons or am I a martyr? we don't, like it's, our lives in reality are far more complex than,
Cameron (16:57)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (17:14)
easy, tidy categories. Yeah. So that's just, that's just not a metric onto reality. But I do think in the Charlie Kirk case, the way that we use language says something about how we conceptualize the political order, our response to it and the threats that we perceive and the power we would like to extend. Those are, that's why it feels more operative just for me personally to pause a second say, what do I think is actually happening here?
Cameron (17:16)
The neat categories we have. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yes. So part of the, another interesting strand here, Nathan is that Charlie Kirk on the one hand was, so I think as, let me just put my cards on the table here and say that I think Ezra Klein, he's, he's under such fire right now. We were talking about this earlier, Nathan. I think Ezra Klein is right when he says that Charlie Kirk was practicing politics the right way. Now, when I say that though, I will qualify.
He was also, so in the sense that he was, he was making, he was aiming at persuasion. He was making arguments for his political position and he was doing so with opponents, people, people who hated him. And he was committed to, to, to dialoguing about it and talking it out. So I think that's, I think that's laudable. Now that said, the strand I'm bringing up here is he was in support of a candidate who is high, who remains.
highly controversial, not in the, I'm not gonna, let's set politics aside, but Donald Trump, yeah, I'll stop here.
Nathan (18:48)
Well, so hang on a second. He's the
majority elected leader of the country. So it's not, he's not a fringe. And Charlie Kirk represented, I think, basically the party that came to power through the democratic process. So there's that. It's not like it's a total abnormality. And I think since it's Trump's second term, pretty much everybody knew what they were getting. we're not saying that, but if you take that down into the college campus world, continue.
Cameron (19:12)
Yeah, that's fair.
Yes, but also I was going to say specifically among believers, devout Christians, Donald Trump remains a very, controversial figure, if not a problematic figure from a Christian theological standpoint. That's the-
Nathan (19:36)
Well, and you see this at the
Charlie Kirk Memorial where he gets up and is like, I disagree. You know, it's all wrapped on whether or you should forgive or whether you should love your enemies. So you can see the tension there. ⁓ Okay. Sorry, I brought it up, but go ahead now that we're here.
Cameron (19:43)
Let's talk about that.
let's talk about that for a second because that's important.
No, I'm so glad you brought it up because no, what is happening again is people outside the church are saying to Christians, wow, do you see the magnitude of this moment? And it's kind of convicting. I mean, a couple of examples. Did you see the Jimmy Kimmel response, Nathan, when he went back on the air? He teared up talking about.
Erica Kirk's, I forgive him moment at that rally. He said that moved me deeply. I he really, and it's quite a thing to see. So there was that. But then you have Ezra Klein and David Remnick from the New Yorker sitting down on a podcast. Ezra Klein just keeps sitting down on podcasts and getting himself into more and more trouble. But Remnick, I think in that interview points out that he noted the stark
contrast and this wasn't lost on Christians even Trump supporting Christians, but it wasn't but I mean it was there are some who make a lot of it and some who sort of Minimize it and I'm gonna I'll talk about how how it's minimized in just a second and then kick it over to you but he said you have Erica Kirk saying I forgive him and You have Donald Trump later on saying, you know, I you know, he talked about, know, Charlie Kirk carrot, know loving your enemies I
I don't love my enemies. disagree with them there. I hate my enemies. I don't want what's best for them. So, I mean, that's, that's a statement that makes perfect sense. Coming from Donald Trump, that's of a general piece with his entire comportment and his, his whole biography and humanity in general. makes, yes, absolutely. It is. Can we, can we just pause and say it makes that makes perfect human sense? It makes perfect human sense. Yeah. And, and, and by the way, if you want a lot of.
Nathan (21:32)
or humanity in general. I mean, that is the default human position. Yeah.
Cameron (21:49)
earthly success. If you style your life, on a, build your life on a, on, on a hatred of your enemies and an opposition to any form of resistance to you, you actually, you can achieve quite a bit of success. It's, we think Nathan and I would both contend that it will do massive damage to your heart and soul, but you, but you can achieve some earthly success. You also are living by the sword. So it's, it's an inherently dangerous and precarious existence, but it's like you said, Nathan.
That's the human way, but it's completely antithetical to Christianity and the gospel. And that stark contrast was on display at that memorial. It was very interesting to see, and it brings to vivid light the tensions that I want to highlight because Charlie Kirk was known as a big supporter and a big reason for this man's reelection.
Nathan (22:37)
Mm-hmm.
Cameron (22:47)
That's a complicating factor, a strand I wanted to bring into.
Nathan (22:50)
Okay,
so let's say there then that you have Charlie Kirk connected in that world ⁓ and the apparent tensions... Everybody knows they're there, but it was a thing that was working together and they were seen as necessary components of what both of them were trying to do. That being said, that is why Charlie Kirk is a unique feature and character in this because when he was killed, obviously you're like... I mean, so there's the...
emotional response to that. But, at the same point, as soon as everybody started saying they shot him because he was a Christian, Cameron, you've done a lot of campus ministry work. I've done a lot of stuff with campus ministries. There are, there were 10,000 other Christians speaking at college campuses on that same day. I mean, think about that. Crew, InterVarsity, Navigators, Chi Alpha, go down the list.
Most campuses have multiple Christian ministries who have multiple meetings per week who are doing totally open, honest engagement, speaking, teaching, preaching, evangelism, counseling, discipling, encouraging public Christian. So yeah, don't know. what, what are there four and a half thousand colleges and universities in the United States? Something that's in the 4,000 range, I think, ⁓ that have campus ministries and most of them have multiple. So yeah, I don't think it's a
an exaggeration to say there were probably 10,000 other people presenting the gospel or involved in Christian work on college campuses across the country at that time. ⁓ And none of them were shot. So this is a, it complicates the narrative a little bit because so Charlie was a Christian who was killed while speaking, but it's a very specific kind of Christian who was killed while speaking, not
the other 9,999 who are involved in maybe a less political version of that. So ⁓ I'm only saying that to try to take a little bit of the heat out of the conversation for the Christians who really think they're being targeted. And then obviously the crazy shooting and fire at the Mormon church just last weekend ⁓ poured a lot more energy into that. And then, you know, when you push into it, like he definitely had a
a deep thing against Mormons and it seems like there's some sort of backstory there and some kind of connection that he had had with the Mormon church and it'll be interesting to see what the question comes out there. But all of that to say is that though there is very real spiritual opposition to Christianity and sometimes there's physical opposition to Christianity, we as Americans should be very careful in light of the actual throat-slitting, church-burning house bombings that are happening
in the lives of other Christians around the world to somehow respect the gravitas of the legitimacy of persecution and to not overly identify ourselves as a victim in something that probably we weren't actually being targeted about. ⁓ Let's just tread carefully there.
Cameron (25:41)
Yeah. ⁓
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. And this will be frustrating for some of you, but I think helpfully and necessarily frustrating because part of the, one of the symptoms of our age is that we don't even really reach conclusions. just pounce on opinions very quickly or latch onto sound bites and it's the air we breathe. And once again, Nathan and I are saying, let's slow down. And one way to slow down is to
look at some of the different pieces that we're dealing with here. And we could say it just in terms of Charlie Kirk was a political activist. He was a brilliant public communicator. His star was on the rise. His notoriety was only growing. was instrumental in the reelection of Donald Trump and that he secured the young vote. Because of that, he was a much better And so there's the political.
Nathan (26:52)
and in the faith of a lot of young people. And he brought a lot of young people into the church. So the evangelistic apologetic side
is huge too.
Cameron (27:01)
Well, there's the political activist side, which is, think, where most of his initial fame and notoriety comes from. Then he is increasingly, but he is not a private or meek Christian. He's very outspoken and that becomes more and more prominent the more fame he gets, which is laudable and wonderful. So all of those factors are in play. But what Nathan said is true. You have the vast majority of Christians who are proselytizing, who are
I mean, you go onto most major university campuses, there are people doing just good old fashioned street evangelism with standing up on soap boxes or with megaphones and big placards. And they remain, most of them are unharmed in the process. So he is killed for motives that are somewhat unclear, but to be connected to his political notoriety. So all of that's true.
Nathan (27:57)
Here's
what I don't want us to think, though, is that Charlie Kirk was just better at campus ministry than all of other campus ministries, and that's why he had to be taken out. And if we have a ⁓ sense that success for campus ministry looks like a particular form of political activism, we're...
having too small of a view of what campus ministry actually is. so, think, because the argument could be made, well, you know, if these other campus ministers would be so bold, or, you know, if they were really doing their job well, they would have risen to the prominence of somebody who would be targeted. And maybe it's because they're not doing a good enough of a job that they're not prominent enough, that they're not enough of a political target to be involved there. Now, there are
Cameron (28:40)
Hmm.
Nathan (28:56)
And then there's a whole nother conversation about where the money for all of this comes from. I don't think it was the Southern Baptist that sent Charlie Kirk enough money to buy a private plane. I mean, there is a, there's a scale and a size and a, and a whole political apparatus around the entirety of the thing that makes him a, a unique and a special figure, ⁓ who we can deeply lament the death of, ⁓ and be shocked at the people who mock it.
and at the same time as Christians say, we want to be able to accurately define what the true issues are, what the real challenges are, what the real problems are, and to live with the appropriate understanding of our relationship to the world in a way that I think is a very hopeful moment, actually, for the Church. I think His death did jar in a lot of people a legitimate thinking about, you know what? We do need to be more bold. We do need to be more confident. We do need to be...
more out there and involved ⁓ in certain ways. But let's not do that out of a victim mindset, I think is my plea for the church. ⁓ Because to say that we're under attack or being oppressed, again, in light of what's happening and has happened throughout the history of the world,
Again, I just can only say let's tread carefully there.
Cameron (30:18)
Yeah. And much more will be said here as we continue thinking about what's going on, all of these current events and the legacy of Charlie Kirk. So thanks for your patience with us as we walk through subjects that are often heated and quite emotional for all of us. But this is important and words do matter. once again, we think it's important also to slow down
and be reflective, even if, and what that, you know, that might mean moving away sometimes from the smartphone or the posting, all of that. mean, we have, there seems to be this imperative to express yourself and have an opinion immediately and to do so in very strong and strident terms. It's important to sometimes just break the spell and point out that that imperative is not real. It's artificial. It's imposed. Well, I mean, it's imposed by other people, but you don't need to respond actually.
And your silence doesn't indict you. your silence doesn't necessarily indict you. That's another thing. mean, you don't have to feel guilty. Your silence just, you don't owe public reactions to everything, to everyone and everything. You can reach your own conclusion. You can be reflective. You can pray about this and you can be more, mean, both Nathan and I have had, I don't think I've posted a single thing about Charlie.
Nathan (31:19)
Or, yeah.
Cameron (31:48)
Kirk publicly, but behind the scenes, I've been having numerous conversations and long sprawling emails with people face to face. And Nathan, I know you have as well. What is more, what, what's going to make a greater difference and what's going to be better, more beneficial for you and for others, the public posting or those behind the scenes conversations with real people.
Nathan (32:10)
Well, that's a topic for maybe another discussion at another time. ⁓ but the, thing of it is, is let's, let's loop back here just for a conclusion to say that the tragedy of it is, that this conversation will happen again with another individual at some point. It's the nature of the history of the world. And it seems like the craziness of our current society and culture and politics and that being able to parse out this person.
a martyr because they're a Christian? Was this person martyred because they were a political actor who also was a Christian? Or do those distinctions not exist and all of it goes into one ball of wax? I think in my mind it's been helpful just to recognize the differences there and the unique challenges and then ⁓ adjust accordingly in the way that I've been thinking about it.
There's a great biblical and church history. Being martyred for the faith is a deeply respected ⁓ thing to do. It is a praised and prized sort of thing.
If we capture the vision that the New Testament has, ⁓ Stephen, as the first Christian ⁓ martyr there, looking into heaven, seeing Christ standing and asking for forgiveness for the people killing him, is the foundation of a crazy movement in the world, which we call the Church. so that's a... Pentecost, I understand all of that too. I'm just saying it was part of the formation of the Church. But it's a... ⁓
theology and a way of life that we are invited into that isn't born out of fear, isn't born out of hatred or disgust or political strategy. It's out of a simple response to what God is asking us to do in the face of evil. And then we play the hand that the Lord has dealt us to the best of our abilities, try to be a good steward of the talents and gifts and resources and blessings that he has given us. And I think I would just leave with this is a word of encouragement.
prayer that my wife and I have been working on is just to simply pray, Lord, would you help us steward our blessings well? And you might not be doing super hot right now financially and all that. Like that's not what I'm talking about by blessings. You woke up, you had something to eat. ⁓ You have the basic necessities of life. Those are blessings. And ask God to help you use what it is that He has given you for the day, whatever it is, in order to honor Him well and to live your lives well.
That, I think, is what will be held to account for, not our responses online, but did we take what the Lord gave us and use it well? so, ⁓ Cameron, thanks for taking the time to think through this with me. Thank you for those of you who are listening and wrestling along with this and trying to make sense of the world. ⁓ Stay steady. Be involved in your local conversations and communities and your churches. Continue to look to the scripture for what is true. Continue to be on your knees before the Lord and ask Him for guidance.
and wisdom in how to live in a world that none of us really fully understand. And let's live like he has the whole world in his hands, not as a children's song concept, but as a declaration of his sovereignty and his care for us. His eyes on the sparrow go forth boldly. And you know what? If you get shot in the neck for the sake of the gospel,
So be it. ⁓ We have to live with that attitude. It's one that's been modeled well for us ⁓ by people throughout all times and ages. ⁓ when you die, when you get killed, when you're dead, that is the signal that the Lord said, well done. You finished the task that I had for you, and now we're on to the next thing. so let's, however you want to fit in those categories that we laid out about Charlie's martyrdom. ⁓
At the end of the day, the takeaway thing is, can we be faithful with what it is that God is asking of us? And we'll let him sort out all the details in some of these other categories in the future. the bottom line, Cameron, that I want people to take away from this is that do not succumb to fear and paranoia or conspiracy. Recognize that evil is real, that there's a real response to evil, and that it's a message that comes through the gospel.
and is to be manifest in our lives. And we can't do that on our own. And so we cry out to the Lord for help and then we'll see what He does with us. You've been listening to Thinking Out Loud, a podcast where we think out loud about current events, how to live well, and Christian hope.